twilight2000-digest Sunday, September 3 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 177 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: In defense of 2300 Re: T2K Game Settings Re: T2K Game Settings Re: In defense of 2300 Re: In defense of 2300 france in 2300AD Re: france in 2300AD twilight2300AD Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 2.3KAD Re: T2K Game Settings Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 Re: 2.3KAD Re: france in 2300AD Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 FYI: Interesting story ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:34:32 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: In defense of 2300 At 09:04 PM 8/29/00 GMT, Charles York wrote: >I'm probably one of the most unlikely defender of 2300: >I didn't like the game engine, most of the "future" technology, the >political environment, or a number of the ways space was colonized. (I was >an collector nonetheless, primarily for their hard science approach to >planetary exploration and their colonial atlas) > >Still, 2300 shouldn't be easily brushed aside: > >First, yes it is a PROJECTION of the T2K world, set 300 years later. >Players who bitch that their destiny is now predetermined are forgetting >that: >1) it was kept intentionally vague for well over double the characters' >lifespans No, it's not all THAT vague--we KNOW, for example, that Mexico will keep its conquests in the southwestern U.S. The exact location of the border in 300 years, which is printed in the 2300 manual, is very interesting information for any PC playing the Red Star/Lone Star module. Not only that, but GDW started writing modules for TW2K that pushed history in the 2300AD direction. >2) A squad of characters, no matter how proficient, are not going to make >globally revolutionary changes to the world in most campaigns. My concern here isn't what the characters can do, but what _I_, the GM, can do. It's my job to decide how the world will evolve, not GDW's. Sure, I don't mind if they do modules that describe how small parts of the world change over time, especialy if those changes fit smooth into the general thrust of how things were going before, but I really, REALLY disliked what started with Howling Wilderness, which dictated that the entire TW2K world would change in a radical direction, totally altering the course of every location in the world--and after that point, every new module was set in that changed world, and so you couldn't use new source materials without buying into the change. >3) The projections were made through a large scale "strategy game" played by >the designers, and like any game, different results will come through >different sessions. There's no reason your world will end up like that. Well, yes, there is a reason, when the designers mandate that all future modules will follow the path that leads to the predetermined end. I'm forced either to accept their reults, or I have to play the game unsupported by the their source materials. > >Now, for the French. While I admit the I found the idea of a French >Superpower ridiculous, the events of T2k (1st edition) left them at an >advantage. > >The French were one of the few 1st world powers not crushed by the twilight >war. While their refieries were targeted, they were neutral, and profited >from their trade of nonmilitary goods to both sides. Even with the damage >they suffered, the French ended the war at an economic advantage better than >much of the world. > Just as the war permitted 3rd world nations to "catch up" with their >embattled 1st world neighbors, the French found a void to fill. Possibly >to stem the the tide of refugees, they assumed a french "marshall plan." >Their infrastructure was largely intact, their shipping was intact, and the >remaining nations needed economic assistance. It would be a perfect time >for the French to make some lasting ties. > In fact, IIRC, the "French Empire" included controlling interests in much >of north and central africa, all aligned together from a common rebuilding >effort. These controlling interests were given full "French citizenship, >vastly increasing the national population as well as natural resources. > By the time of 2300, the French superpower was in decline. Their offworld >holdings were seeking independence, their regional superiority was >challenged, and the majority of failures in the war against the "Kafer" >aliens were French defeats. Victory came only when Anglo-American forces >arrived to assist. The French had kept their dominance not because of any >true might, but because of the wariness of the other nations to risk another >twilight war... > 300 years is not a realistic time for an empire to last, not in the age of (even post-WWIII) modern technology. >A final point: >I collected only the Traveller:2300 and 2300AD books that met my interest, >and that was not even half of the supplements, and I have a dozen books. >I'd put the number of books / supplements at close to two dozen. > I bought essentially every supplement up to Howling Wilderness, and none afterwards (well I think I bought Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient used off the Internet, and I bought the 3W module on Los Angeles, though I'm not sure when that one came out). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:29:28 EDT From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Re: T2K Game Settings In a message dated 8/29/00 3:30:14 AM, fitek@ix.netcom.com writes: << Czechoslovakia invading Poland? Wouldn't that be like Canada invading the US? >> The United States is ripe for the picking! All it would take is a combined pincer assault by Canada and Mexico! Yes, it's all becoming clear to me now... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:03:31 GMT From: "matthew henley" Subject: Re: T2K Game Settings well we have heard from the "rebuild itself" camp, dose any body have any coments on what would hapen if the world contenud down hill for at least a few more generaton. I figure that if that if and when sombody starts rebbuilding it would probly be the grandchildren or grate grandchildren of the curnt Pc. > >Has anyone tried running a T2K game set in the future? I think it would >be interesting to see what happens to post-WW3 Earth far down the road. A >lot could change in 50 years, 100 years, or even farther into the future. >The world might become more primitive...or it may rebuild itself instead. >This kind of game could go in a lot of directions and has a ton of >potential. > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:17:23 -0500 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: In defense of 2300 Scott David Orr wrote: > > No, it's not all THAT vague--we KNOW, for example, that Mexico will keep > its conquests in the southwestern U.S. The exact location of the border in > 300 years, which is printed in the 2300 manual, is very interesting > information for any PC playing the Red Star/Lone Star module. > I had a whole campaign built around the formation of the Far Eastern Republic, which I got from 2300AD. My players didn't seem to mind what the situation in 300 years would be. A few even played 2300AD characters that were distant descendants of their Twilight characters. The one thing my players and I universally LIKED about 2300AD was that it made Twilight more enjoyable knowing that the characters weren't just fighting a losing battle. > > Not only that, but GDW started writing modules for TW2K that pushed history > in the 2300AD direction. I own every Twilight and 2300AD product, and I can't find a single example of this. In fact, after the publication of Howling Wilderness, the adventure modules published had almost nothing to do with the situation in that sourcebook. Specifically: 520 Mediterranean Cruise (European adventure) 521 Boomer (European adventure) 522 Satellite Down (Mexican adventure) 523 Return to Warsaw (European adventure) 524 Bears Den (European adventure) 527 White Eagle (European adventure) 528 Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom The 2nd edition Twilight material actually contradicted the 2300AD timeline in many respects (Japan, Australia for instance). > > Sure, I don't mind if they do modules that describe how small parts of the > world change over time, especialy if those changes fit smooth into the > general thrust of how things were going before, but I really, REALLY > disliked what started with Howling Wilderness, which dictated that the > entire TW2K world would change in a radical direction, totally altering the > course of every location in the world--and after that point, every new > module was set in that changed world, and so you couldn't use new source > materials without buying into the change. > > Well, yes, there is a reason, when the designers mandate that all future > modules will follow the path that leads to the predetermined end. I'm > forced either to accept their reults, or I have to play the game > unsupported by the their source materials. > > > > > 300 years is not a realistic time for an empire to last, not in the age of > (even post-WWIII) modern technology. > For what its worth, the French Empire in 2300 was founded in 2298. France had undergone numerous political upheavals. > > >A final point: > >I collected only the Traveller:2300 and 2300AD books that met my interest, > >and that was not even half of the supplements, and I have a dozen books. > >I'd put the number of books / supplements at close to two dozen. > > > I bought essentially every supplement up to Howling Wilderness, and none > afterwards (well I think I bought Bangkok: Cesspool of the Orient used off > the Internet, and I bought the 3W module on Los Angeles, though I'm not > sure when that one came out). > > Scott Orr > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:31:27 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: In defense of 2300 At 07:17 PM 8/29/00 -0500, Rob Barnes wrote: > > >Scott David Orr wrote: > >> >> No, it's not all THAT vague--we KNOW, for example, that Mexico will keep >> its conquests in the southwestern U.S. The exact location of the border in >> 300 years, which is printed in the 2300 manual, is very interesting >> information for any PC playing the Red Star/Lone Star module. >> > >I had a whole campaign built around the formation of the Far Eastern Republic, >which I got from 2300AD. My players didn't seem to mind what the situation in >300 years would be. A few even played 2300AD characters that were distant >descendants of their Twilight characters. The one thing my players and I >universally LIKED about 2300AD was that it made Twilight more enjoyable knowing >that the characters weren't just fighting a losing battle. > >> >> Not only that, but GDW started writing modules for TW2K that pushed history >> in the 2300AD direction. > >I own every Twilight and 2300AD product, and I can't find a single example of >this. In fact, after the publication of Howling Wilderness, the adventure >modules published had almost nothing to do with the situation in that >sourcebook. Specifically: > >520 Mediterranean Cruise (European adventure) >521 Boomer (European adventure) >522 Satellite Down (Mexican adventure) >523 Return to Warsaw (European adventure) >524 Bears Den (European adventure) >527 White Eagle (European adventure) >528 Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom > >The 2nd edition Twilight material actually contradicted the 2300AD timeline in >many respects (Japan, Australia for instance). > Interesting--if I'd have known that, I might have bought some of them, but after reading that I was convinced it'd be no use. (Actually, I think I do have Return to Warsaw.) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 20:24:10 -0400 From: Guy Lemire Subject: france in 2300AD > From: Scott David Orr > Subject: Re: T2K Game Settings > > At 06:28 PM 8/28/00 EDT, Calibur1@aol.com wrote: > > > >In a message dated 8/28/00 6:01:02 PM, sdorr@ix.netcom.com writes: > > > ><< It was originally called Traveller: 2300, but had nothing do with the > >Traveller game. I don't know much more about it--after reading the > >timeline that made France the world's greatest power, I decided it was so > >preposterous I wouldn't bother. >> > > > >Just being curious, why do you say that? I'm an American with no French > >background, but in a fictional future of "what if's" why do you think that's > >impossible? > > Actually, just mathemtics--France isn't big enough, in population terms to > dominate the world economically or politically. It bothers me particularly > though because, among the rich countries, France has for decades been > behind most of the other countries in both technology and economic reforms. > > Scott Orr Ok France isnt part of the G7 for nothing . Its as industrialized as Germany (not its equal but pretty darn close) Technology wise , they might not have the same kind of cash as the US to throught into R&D but their military industry is just as developed as the US especially in the aerospace field . If you look around eupore the militaries there primarily run around in French (or consortium with French companies) built choppers not american ones! France`s Navy is the only other in the world to field Nuc carriers , sure they only have two , but thats 2 more then the rest of the world . The reason France became a dominant power was because it was able to bring its former african colonies back into the fold . This provided them with both the resources and man power to become world leaders . France (as leading menber of the ESA ) was also the 1st to field starship and got 1st pick at all the best colonial realstate . In 2300ad with both on and off world population of over a billion ,it has the cash to maintain a vast empire. Pat Ps: one of the main atraction to the american menbers of the 2300AD its specifically the fact that the US isnt the domination power . Its nice to have someone else to blame shit on hehehe. Beside think about this in the 1800 if you where British I would have told you that the US and Russia would someday dominate the world , what would you reaction have been . Just cause the US is the dominant power now , doesnt mean its gona stay that way forever ! As a matter of fact according to GDW`s take on things , took the US 40 years to get back on its feet , only took Canada 20 , and for that brief time , it was considered the dominating power in North America . Had they decided to invaded while you guys where bussy working out your differences betwee Milgov, Civgov and the NA , you might all be canadians , well the New Englanders anyhow ! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 01:04:27 GMT From: "Charles York" Subject: Re: france in 2300AD >Guy Lemire wrote: >Just cause the US is the dominant power now , doesnt mean its gona stay >that way forever ! As a matter of fact according to GDW`s take on >things >, it took the US 40 years to get back on its feet , only took >Canada 20 , >and for that brief time , it was considered the dominating >power in North >America . >Had they decided to invaded while you guys where bussy working out your >differences betwee Milgov, Civgov and the NA , you might all be >canadians >, well the New Englanders anyhow ! Please, oh puh-LEASE take New England. Please? No chance Canada could do an amphibious assault & take the Carolinas as well could they? Darn, didn't think so.... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:03:37 -0400 From: Guy Lemire Subject: twilight2300AD > > > > > GDW > > > infact had a triad alliance of australia, usa, and germany held back a > > > alien invasion (the french got thier ass kicked! ) > > The US ,Germany, Aussie thing is a side effect of the kafer war. The Australia had a total of 3 ships in the war . The big boys after France where the UK along with the US and Germany, other major players where the Japanese and Ukrainians . The thing you have to keep in mind is the Kafer dont use money , so they can build their stuff big , nasty and in quantity and they do . In moderm terms its the equivalent of France trying to beat back the USSR (before it fell appart) . Their good , but sonner or later quantity will win out over quality . In 2300 the most common human ship is the frigate at 2000-3000 tons, the average Kafer ship is 20 000tons! > >WHAT?!? Where did you pick this little tidbit up? > > > >Doug G > If I recall, 2300 AD's "Invasion" has the French arm decimated. The French > and euro forces were well-equipped, but their tactics fell to neatly into > the Kafer strategy. > > *The alien forces- Kafer- operated with a killer adrenaline system, and got > progressively faster and smarter through the battle, but more lethargic in > between battles. The french battle strategy included prolonged engagements > of slow-moving, heavy warships. they were easy prey. > > Victory didn't come until the american Kennedy-class rapid misile cruisers, > Germany's Bismarck Battleship (smaller & faster than the French) and the > Aussie forces arrived. I recall a Brit force as well, but can't recall when > they arrived to battle. > Actual victory came when the British broke the kafer`s back at Beowulf , the US battleship that took part in the engagement is credited for destroying the Kafer Battleship which had the Kafer leader in an one on one slug fest . (Think Midway) Basically the ship only can travel up 7.7 light years so settlement is done in a branching pattern . These are grouped into 3 arms : French (mostly europeans) , American (US and Australians ) and Chinesse (everybody else including Canada and Texas) You have 3 main fleets. The one at Aurore , a colony at the door of Kafer space . They where the ones who where 1st invaded so 2 years later when the Kafer came back, the where the most ready so much so that the Kafer decided to by-pass . Originaly it was commanded by a french admiral but he was an idiot and got killed off pretty quick , command them past to an Ukrainian admiral . (Aurore as their only colony so they have most of their small navy posted there ) You have a whats left of the human fleet under a French admiral cut off in whats left of human space in the" north-west" section of the arm and then you have the Brits at Beowulf the choke point to earth . As the Kafer go deeper into human space they start having trouble with their supply line continously raided by the 2 cut off fleets . So the leader , Triumphant Destiny decided the only to go its to grab what he has left before hìs subordinant break apart and make a final push to Earth . He tries to lure out the Brit at Beowulf , but the dont fall for it so he ends up doing a frontal assault with part of his fleet trying to come up from behind. Unfortuanly for him , he used that trick once to many and the Brit admiral anticipates it , retreats a bit , the 2 kafer fleet join up and he come back out and just plows throught them . The leader gets killed , the fleet falls apart and then its aquestion of mopp-up . Unfortunately Kafer infantry is quite tenacious and the mopp up is gonna last for years . > But- at the end of the series, the war wasn't over. The humans had pushed > back an invasion fleet equivalent to just one Terran nation, and now the > other Kafer nations were mobilizing- fearing invasion from the "smart > barbarians" (long story). Yea but plenty of action to go around , especialy on Aurore where you get alot of T2K style senarios . Pat *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:27:26 EDT From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 > From what I remember, it didn't last long > or go over well. On the contrary, 2300 AD was selling OK -- we had to drop it because we lost some key design staff and couldn't support it. Loren Wiseman GDW Emeritus *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:51:41 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: 2.3KAD >I've got it, and it's quite good (although the damage resolution system, >like in all other GDW games, stunk). The main problem was that people bought >it expecting it to be a game set early in the Traveller timeline (the >original game was called Traveller 2300); when people realized it wasn't >what they were expecting, the demand for it really dropped. > >Regarding the French: As silly as a French empire in 2300 may sound, exactly >which countries in the year 2000 were in better shape?Australia, perhaps? >Anyone else? The thing to remember about 2.3KAD is that it was based on an in-house GDW strategy game called 'The Great Game' set in the years after the Twilight War, everybody got a few countries to control and a ref moderated it like any other game. I reject the standard T2K setting and have substituted my own, similiar setting, but it doesn't stop me enjoying 2.3KAD. Unlike most sci fi games, 2.3KAD is based on fairly hard science and if you get a chance to look at the Aurore Sourcebook you really should! A brilliantly designed moon orbiting a brown giant in a binary system. Even though you have a standardish atmosphere and gravity, they came up with an intelligently alien world that never fails to impress. I consider it the standard for world books. Also, the aliens in 2.3KAD are really *alien*. Even the Kaefers aren't men in rubber suits, but a rather unpleasant lifeform that is intrinsically violent. The have a functioning biology and psychology worked out for them, the real task is not defeating the Keafer in battle but understanding them socially and as a GM I've kept the players guessing for 10 years now. Some of the game is pretty naff, the classic 'USA is rising to be the dominant superpower' vein is present but it *was* designed for a US market so that's understandable. Other nationality players just ignore it and keep going. The after effects of a nuclear war are zero, reduced population levels and that's it. No lingering rads, no wastelands, even the places described as groundbursts are now inhabited again. If they're that clean, hey, everyone should use them all the time! On the whole, it's a good game IMHO. Wander the hotback of Aurore looking for Molybdenum, make a hazardous planetfall in the Chinese arm and encounter the frightening lifeforms. Meet the Ebers but be polite, meet the Xiang and be confused, meet the Kaefers and be terrified. Jim (PS: When you get to Blackjack starport, look me up at the Taanstafl free legion.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:03:09 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: T2K Game Settings >Czechoslovakia invading Poland? Wouldn't that be like Canada invading the US? > Didn't Canada invade Detroit once in the 1800's? Or have I completely lost my mind and sense of reality. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:27:13 EDT From: Damage169@cs.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 Loren Wiseman writes: > On the contrary, 2300 AD was selling OK -- we had to drop it because we lost > some key design staff and couldn't support it. > Any chance of SJG picking up the licence? No matter what anyone else might say, I've always liked the game. Doug G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:48:22 -0500 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 Loren, since its the current topic of discussion, can you shed any light on the "Great Game" and how it worked? GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote: > > From what I remember, it didn't last long > > or go over well. > > On the contrary, 2300 AD was selling OK -- we had to drop it because we lost > some key design staff and couldn't support it. > > Loren Wiseman > GDW Emeritus > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:54:22 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: 2.3KAD Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > >I've got it, and it's quite good (although the damage resolution system, > >like in all other GDW games, stunk). The main problem was that people > bought > >it expecting it to be a game set early in the Traveller timeline (the > >original game was called Traveller 2300); when people realized it wasn't > >what they were expecting, the demand for it really dropped. > > > >Regarding the French: As silly as a French empire in 2300 may sound, > exactly > >which countries in the year 2000 were in better shape?Australia, perhaps? > >Anyone else? > > The thing to remember about 2.3KAD is that it was based on an in-house > GDW strategy game called 'The Great Game' set in the years after the > Twilight War, everybody got a few countries to control and a ref moderated > it like any other game. I reject the standard T2K setting and have > substituted my own, similiar setting, but it doesn't stop me enjoying > 2.3KAD. Unlike most sci fi games, 2.3KAD is based on fairly hard science and > if you get a chance to look at the Aurore Sourcebook you really should! A > brilliantly designed moon orbiting a brown giant in a binary system. Even > though you have a standardish atmosphere and gravity, they came up with an > intelligently alien world that never fails to impress. I consider it the > standard for world books. > Also, the aliens in 2.3KAD are really *alien*. Even the Kaefers aren't > men in rubber suits, but a rather unpleasant lifeform that is intrinsically > violent. The have a functioning biology and psychology worked out for them, > the real task is not defeating the Keafer in battle but understanding them > socially and as a GM I've kept the players guessing for 10 years now. > Some of the game is pretty naff, the classic 'USA is rising to be the > dominant superpower' vein is present but it *was* designed for a US market > so that's understandable. Other nationality players just ignore it and keep > going. The after effects of a nuclear war are zero, reduced population > levels and that's it. No lingering rads, no wastelands, even the places > described as groundbursts are now inhabited again. If they're that clean, > hey, everyone should use them all the time! > On the whole, it's a good game IMHO. Wander the hotback of Aurore > looking for Molybdenum, make a hazardous planetfall in the Chinese arm and > encounter the frightening lifeforms. Meet the Ebers but be polite, meet the > Xiang and be confused, meet the Kaefers and be terrified. > Jim > (PS: When you get to Blackjack starport, look me up at the Taanstafl > free legion.) I remember once converting the Top Secret/SI rules to a sci-fi setting. Now I'm getting interested in this. Anyone got an extra copy? - -- Peter Vieth | fitek@ix.netcom.com | http://sanitarium.scizzors.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 02:32:34 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: france in 2300AD At 08:24 PM 8/29/00 -0400, Guy Lemire wrote: > > Ok France isnt part of the G7 for nothing . Its as industrialized as >Germany (not its equal but pretty darn close) >Technology wise , they might not have the same kind of cash as the US to >throught into R&D but their military industry >is just as developed as the US especially in the aerospace field . If I remember correctly, France has put more into government-funded R&D (as a percentage of GDP) than other European countries, and gotten less from it. >If you >look around eupore the militaries there primarily run around in French (or >consortium with French companies) built choppers not american ones! That's because Europe cooperates on these things, each country buying from the others. That said, France has reasonably good military aerospace and electronic technology--but it paid dearly for it, and in civilian technologies it's behind everyone else, mainly because it insisted on doing everything itself rather than using developments from other countries. > >France`s Navy is the only other in the world to field Nuc carriers , sure >they only have two , but thats 2 more then the rest of the world . > Yes, but what good do the carriers do them? They're hideously expensive, but they don't carry many planes, and the French don't have a modern naval fighter they could put on them. To put it bluntly, the carriers have everythign to do with national ego and nothing to do with fighting wars--the British have the technology to build a nuclear carrier, but they decided long ago that building full-sized carriers wasn't worth the money, especially since there's no real mission for them (yes, the U.S. needs them, but there's no reason for both the UK and the U.S. to have them). The French would like to imagine that they can have a navy independent of the U.S.'s, and do everything else independently too, but they simply aren't big enough, so they end up wasting billions of francs doing a half-assed job of everything and doing nothing particularly well. >The reason France became a dominant power was because it was able to bring >its former african colonies back into the fold . >This provided them with both the resources and man power to become world >leaders . France (as leading menber of the ESA ) was also the 1st to field >starship and got 1st pick at all the best colonial realstate . In 2300ad >with both on and off world population of over a billion ,it has the cash to >maintain a vast empire. > I don't see any country remaining the dominant power for 300 years; I can construct any sort of timeline you like, but it's just not a probable occurence. The fact that the "great game" produced such a result suggests to me that the "great game" wasn't that accurate simulation (not that I'd expect anyone to be able to do an accurate simulation of that sort--it's impossibleo n the face of it, because single individuals don't control entire countries in real life). >Ps: one of the main atraction to the american menbers of the 2300AD its >specifically the fact that the US isnt the domination power . Its nice to >have someone else to blame shit on hehehe. Beside think about this in the >1800 if you where British I would have told you that the US and Russia would >someday dominate the world , what would you reaction have been . > > Just cause the US is the dominant power now , doesnt mean its gona stay >that way forever ! As a matter of fact according to GDW`s take on things , >took the US 40 years to get back on its feet , only took Canada 20 , and for >that brief time , it was considered the dominating power in North America . >Had they decided to invaded while you guys where bussy working out your >differences betwee Milgov, Civgov and the NA , you might all be canadians , >well the New Englanders anyhow ! > 300 years is "forever" in international relations.... Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 17:40:27 GMT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #176 >From: GDWGAMES@aol.com > > > From what I remember, it didn't last long > > or go over well. > >On the contrary, 2300 AD was selling OK -- we had to drop it because we >lost >some key design staff and couldn't support it. > >Loren Wiseman > GDW Emeritus I stand corrected (I think I was the one who made the faulty statement). A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope http://www.geocities.com/copeab _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:35:46 +1200 From: Andrew Tiffany Subject: FYI: Interesting story Hi all, An interesting story, don't know how true it is..... > (This originally appeared in the >>July Manawatu [New Zealand] Miniature Strategist’s Newsletter). This in the June >>issue of Investigate magazine: A New Zealand military attack on >>Indonesia allegedly left 100 Indonesian troops dead, and brought the two >>countries to within hours of war. Details of the up till now >>clandestine mission have been leaked to Investigate by military sources >>closely linked to the East Timor operation who claim that this incident was >>behind Indonesian plans to launch a full scale war against New Zealand and >>Australia. Members of New Zealand’s elite Special Air Service, backed >>up by Australian SAS troops, were involved in the blitzkrieg, which took >>place across the border in Indonesian West Timor. SAS had identified a >>large number of Indonesian soldiers who were making cross-border incursions >>into East Timor under the guise of local militia, one of the SAS sources >>told Investigate. “They would come in at night and murder women and >>children, then slip back into their barracks near Atapupu, inside >>Indonesian territory. Attacking soldiers is one thing: massacring innocent >>women and children is another. A decision was made to take out this unit.” >> Using Australian Blackhawk helicopter gunships, a joint ANZAC force of >>SAS troops flew from Dili to Atapupu to launch a full-scale strike against >>the Indonesian military barracks. “More than a dozen and less than >>fifty SAS men were involved,” confirmed another source, “I’m not going to >>give you exact numbers. But in the region of 100 Indonesian soldiers were >>killed. There were no ANZAC casualties.” The raid took place only weeks >>after ANZAC peacekeepers first landed in Dili. Media reports at the >>height of the Timor crisis suggested Indonesia had come within 48 hours of >>declaring war on New Zealand and Australia, but shed no light on >>specifically why. “Our invasion of Indonesian territory to get these >>bastards was technically an Act of War,” the source added, “and yeah, >>Indonesia was making retaliatory threats. But making threats and actually >>doing it are two different things. We would have kicked their ass.” >>“New Zealand has SAS reconnaissance troops in East Timor long before the >>election. We knew what was going on. In addition, despite what the armchair >>pundits will tell you, the Indonesian military is no match for Australia. >>The Aussies have been preparing for an Indonesian invasion for a very long >>time, and you don’t realise how well-prepared and well-trained they are >>until you’re actually there.” Information obtained by Investigate >>suggests Indonesia thought better of declaring war only after a US warning >>delivered through diplomatic channels to Jakarta, and the intervention of >>UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Nor did it help that Indonesian troops had >>no hard evidence of the raid in the form of killed or captured ANZACs, and >>on the flip side going public would require admitting that 100 of its own >>troops had been killed without enemy loss. It is also understood that >>New Zealand and Australia plan to remain silent on the matter, so as not to >>provide Indonesia with public confirmation of the incursion. Indonesian >>discretion, in the end, was the better of valour ­ aided additionally by >>what Investigate understands was a last minute boost of 30 F-111 >>fighter-bombers ­ flown out of retirement in the US to bolster Australia’s >>northern coast as a further dissuasion element, armed with the latest US >>tactical weaponry and capable of striking into the heart of Indonesia.” >>There, don’t ever say your defence dollars aren’t being well spent. Cheers Andrew Tiffany *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #177 *************************************