twilight2000-digest Thursday, August 10 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 172 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Rifle Grenades Re: P-3 Orion Question RE: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades Re: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades Re: MP TOE Re: MP TOE Re: Rifle Grenades Re: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades RE: Rifle Grenades Re: MP TOE AP/AV 700 (was RE: Rifle Grenades) MP TOE's RE: MP TOE's RE: MP TOE's RE: MP TOE's Re: P-3 Orion Question Re: P-3 Orion Question Re: P-3 Orion Question Silos RE: Silos ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:21:06 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Rifle Grenades At 03:47 PM 8/7/00 EDT, FlankerMan@aol.com wrote: >Speaking of rifle grenades, in V1 what skill is required to use rifle grenade >launchers like to M203's on M16's. Its part of the rifle so does it use CRm? >But its also a GL so does it use HW? It would almost alwayse use IF, I think. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:26:24 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question At 06:30 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Craig Gulledge wrote: >Does anyone have a notion to the performance characteristics of an >Orion. >My question is, can an Orion take off with just two props? >I know that they can cruise with two, but are two enough to get >one off the ground? > If it can cruise with two, it can take off with two--however, it would take a longer runway, and climbing would take longer (maybe _much_ longer in both cases). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:58:25 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades > From: Scott David Orr > > At 03:47 PM 8/7/00 EDT, FlankerMan@aol.com wrote: > >Speaking of rifle grenades, in V1 what skill is required to use rifle > grenade > >launchers like to M203's on M16's. Its part of the rifle so does > it use CRm? > >But its also a GL so does it use HW? > > It would almost alwayse use IF, I think. I remember some of the infantry guys were really outstanding with the M203's. They didn't bother with the sights half the time. Those guys would be shooting the practice grenades through windows 100m away like Michael Jordan doing a jump shot. I remember watching them at the range and just shaking my head. Some of them are really damn good. But most of those guys wouldn't have a clue how to aim a mortar or howitzer. IIRC, in infantry school they took the guys with the best math scores on the ASVAB and made them mortar guys. The big guys they made M60 gunners, and everyone else was just an 11B (infantry rifleman). The M60/"big guy" thing may be somewhat myth, but the math scores for the mortar guys is definately accurate. To shoot a mortar or howitzer you have to know about surveying. You gotta read a map very well. Nowadays in the world of the $99 GPS, the math and survey skills probably aren't as important as they were. But the mortar guys practiced hard on quick emergency fire missions during a road march and surveying in was hard to to accurately and fast. Aiming the weapon was done dialing the weapon from one setting to another. Not just purely by feel like on a grenade launcher. The sights just get you in the ballpark for range and windage, most of the aiming is by feel. I guess my original point was that the infantry guys were really good with M203's even without sights. Now I wasn't very good by their standards being just a staff puke, but the weapon is very instinctive to use and doesn't take long to get familiar with. An old muzzle fired rifle grenade may act similiar to a M203 without using the sights. If so, then there will be lots of infantry guys out there that would take pride in their ability to drop one right on your head, at night, with a cross wind. Their target circle may not be quite as tight as a M203, but I wouldn't want one pointed at me by an experienced grunt! So how does that translate to Twilight? Personally, I'd use Heavy Weapons skill, possibly modified by a familiarity with the actual model involved. Someone really good with a M203, may take half a dozen shots with another significantly different model before he gets comfortable with how it handles. And maybe a couple dozen more shots before he gets really good and consistent with it. In the real world that stuff really just comes down to athletic precision. You know those guys that are good at every sport they ever try? These guys tend to get good with new weapons really quickly too. If you pick up a sport like tennis really quick, then you'd probably pick up shooting a grenade launcher quick too. I taught an OPFOR weapons class several times, and there were guys in our unit which would pick up on how to use and be accurate with an AK-47 MUCH faster than other guys. Those guys were the same ones that were really good on the company softball team and stuff like that. Not because they practiced at softball, it was just because they were athleticly talented. Then there were others that were just hopeless and were lucky to just qualify with their M16 twice a year. Even if they became good at shooting a M203, it would take them just as long to get good at shooting a muzzle fired rifle grenade as it did the first time with the M203. Picking up and learning stuff like that is a talent. Some people just have more than others. I don't know of anything in T2K to simlulate this. Or even if you'd want to try. But it happens. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 00:30:00 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades At 10:58 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Walter Rebsch wrote: >I remember some of the infantry guys were really outstanding with the >M203's. They didn't bother with the sights half the time. Those guys would >be shooting the practice grenades through windows 100m away like Michael >Jordan doing a jump shot. I remember watching them at the range and just >shaking my head. Some of them are really damn good. But most of those guys >wouldn't have a clue how to aim a mortar or howitzer. > In real life, yes--but TW2K uses the same skill for all forms of IF. There probably should be a separate skill for grenade launchers and rifle grenades, but I suppose I'd allow HW, since rifle grenades aren't exactly going to be using called fire. I seem to recall though there's a rule that lets you use HW _or_ IF for self-observed fire. >IIRC, in infantry school they took the guys with the best math scores on the >ASVAB and made them mortar guys. The big guys they made M60 gunners, and >everyone else was just an 11B (infantry rifleman). The M60/"big guy" thing >may be somewhat myth, but the math scores for the mortar guys is definately >accurate. > >To shoot a mortar or howitzer you have to know about surveying. You gotta >read a map very well. Nowadays in the world of the $99 GPS, the math and >survey skills probably aren't as important as they were. But the mortar >guys practiced hard on quick emergency fire missions during a road march and >surveying in was hard to to accurately and fast. Aiming the weapon was done >dialing the weapon from one setting to another. Not just purely by feel >like on a grenade launcher. The sights just get you in the ballpark for >range and windage, most of the aiming is by feel. Even with the GPS, the guy with good math skills has a better feel for what he's doing (I a better feel for the math). It's there also a spatial visualization section on the ASVAB? I'd think you'd want someone who did well in that, too. > >I guess my original point was that the infantry guys were really good with >M203's even without sights. Now I wasn't very good by their standards being >just a staff puke, but the weapon is very instinctive to use and doesn't >take long to get familiar with. An old muzzle fired rifle grenade may act >similiar to a M203 without using the sights. If so, then there will be lots >of infantry guys out there that would take pride in their ability to drop >one right on your head, at night, with a cross wind. Their target circle >may not be quite as tight as a M203, but I wouldn't want one pointed at me >by an experienced grunt! > I wouldn't doubt. It's pretty simple really: you aim at angle X and it goes distance Y. Dealing with wind and differing elevations makes things tricky, but with practice you can deal with that. >So how does that translate to Twilight? Personally, I'd use Heavy Weapons >skill, possibly modified by a familiarity with the actual model involved. >Someone really good with a M203, may take half a dozen shots with another >significantly different model before he gets comfortable with how it >handles. And maybe a couple dozen more shots before he gets really good and >consistent with it. > >In the real world that stuff really just comes down to athletic precision. >You know those guys that are good at every sport they ever try? These guys >tend to get good with new weapons really quickly too. If you pick up a >sport like tennis really quick, then you'd probably pick up shooting a >grenade launcher quick too. I taught an OPFOR weapons class several times, >and there were guys in our unit which would pick up on how to use and be >accurate with an AK-47 MUCH faster than other guys. Those guys were the >same ones that were really good on the company softball team and stuff like >that. Not because they practiced at softball, it was just because they were >athleticly talented. Then there were others that were just hopeless and >were lucky to just qualify with their M16 twice a year. Even if they became >good at shooting a M203, it would take them just as long to get good at >shooting a muzzle fired rifle grenade as it did the first time with the >M203. Picking up and learning stuff like that is a talent. Some people >just have more than others. I don't know of anything in T2K to simlulate >this. Or even if you'd want to try. But it happens. > Other RPG systems do this by basing skills off stats (like Dexterity in GURPS--though this is arguably too broad an ability), and/or by giving some people special talents (purchased as "advantages" or whatnot). The biggest flaw of TW2K is that there's no interaction at all between stats and skills in the original version (except for basing some skills off Education--and in fact the higher your stats are in general, the LOWER your starting skill are), and only a little in v.2 (your stats provide the point at which your skills hit a plateau). To add to that, there aren't any "talents" or "advantages" at all that differentiate one character from another in terms of potential, other than the basic stats. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:05:57 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Rifle Grenades - ----- Original Message ----- From: Walter Rebsch To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:58 PM Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades > I remember some of the infantry guys were really outstanding with the > M203's. They didn't bother with the sights half the time. Those guys would > be shooting the practice grenades through windows 100m away like Michael > Jordan doing a jump shot. I remember watching them at the range and just > shaking my head. Some of them are really damn good. But most of those guys > wouldn't have a clue how to aim a mortar or howitzer. > Walter Just on the M203 and M79, is it worth having time of flight rules? These low velocity grenade launchers are 76 mps, even if it is flat trajectory (is it more flat or an arc? I'm guessing flatish if it can hit a window), this is more than 5 seconds before it hits at 300-400 metres. Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:08:09 GMT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades > >IIRC, in infantry school they took the guys with the best math scores on >the > >ASVAB and made them mortar guys. The big guys they made M60 gunners, and > >everyone else was just an 11B (infantry rifleman). The M60/"big guy" >thing > >may be somewhat myth, but the math scores for the mortar guys is >definately > >accurate. > > > >To shoot a mortar or howitzer you have to know about surveying. You >gotta > >read a map very well. Nowadays in the world of the $99 GPS, the math and > >survey skills probably aren't as important as they were. But the mortar > >guys practiced hard on quick emergency fire missions during a road march >and > >surveying in was hard to to accurately and fast. Aiming the weapon was >done > >dialing the weapon from one setting to another. Not just purely by feel > >like on a grenade launcher. The sights just get you in the ballpark for > >range and windage, most of the aiming is by feel. > >Even with the GPS, the guy with good math skills has a better feel for what >he's doing (I a better feel for the math). It's there also a spatial >visualization section on the ASVAB? I'd think you'd want someone who did >well in that, too. I'd want someone good in it in case the GPS went belly-up on me. To hell with multiple redundancies and supply lines, if you can't do your job without the fancy toys, then the fancy toys are the ones really doing the job and not you. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:13:46 GMT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: Re: MP TOE >Anyone out there know how US Military Police companies at division level >and >US Military Police Brigades at corps level and up (?) are equipped and >organized circa late 1980's/early 1990's? > Not offhand, although I would imagine that they would probably be limited to M113's and HMMWV's, with maybe some trucks. They're not exactly combat units, after all, so it's more likely that they just have Hummers (for patrol cars) and 5-ton trucks (for transport). Ask Brandon Cope, though; he has all the other TO&E's ;) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:57:15 GMT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: MP TOE >From: "Stephen Dragoo" > >>Anyone out there know how US Military Police companies at division level >>and >>US Military Police Brigades at corps level and up (?) are equipped and >>organized circa late 1980's/early 1990's? >> > >Not offhand, although I would imagine that they would probably be limited >to >M113's and HMMWV's, with maybe some trucks. They're not exactly combat >units, after all, so it's more likely that they just have Hummers (for >patrol cars) and 5-ton trucks (for transport). > >Ask Brandon Cope, though; he has all the other TO&E's ;) Sorry, there are no MP units in Steel Panthers III -- I don't have a clue ;) A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope http://www.geocities.com/copeab ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 15:07:45 GMT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Rifle Grenades >From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" > > >My recommendation is, forget rifle grenades. They're slower than even >the > >M203 under-barrel or M79 dedicated GL's (as you have to reload your rifle > >AND affix the grenade to the muzzle), they're less accurate (they're not > >fired with sights, as you have to brace the rifle against the ground and > >fire it with a trajectory similar to a mortar), and they detract from the > >firepower of your rifle. > > Alternatively, you can do what we did. Our PC's were given two crates >of >rifle grenades as a bonus for doing a job by some grateful civvies (I think >that was the case, trying to look back through the bourbon haze here of 10 >years!) Rather than use the rotten things, and as we were doing the Pirates >of the Vistula at the time, we made up jury rig shore bombardment weapon >with a bunch of old SKS rifles in a frame, using a common trigger. This 44 >gallon drum with all these guns set in it on a pintle would be swung about, >and the gunner would yank the lanyard! It's the MLRS the whole family can >afford, I can get you the stats for a 12 barrel version if you like, they >take forever to load though! I can't post the stats until tommorow, but there is a contraption (built in the last 20-30 years) that can launch 3 rifle grenades. It is much more accurate and has better range than shoulder-fired rifle grenades. A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope http://www.geocities.com/copeab ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 15:29:27 GMT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: Re: Rifle Grenades >> >> >My recommendation is, forget rifle grenades. They're slower than even >>the >> >M203 under-barrel or M79 dedicated GL's (as you have to reload your >>rifle >> >AND affix the grenade to the muzzle), they're less accurate (they're not >> >fired with sights, as you have to brace the rifle against the ground and >> >fire it with a trajectory similar to a mortar), and they detract from >>the >> >firepower of your rifle. >> >> Alternatively, you can do what we did. Our PC's were given two crates >>of >>rifle grenades as a bonus for doing a job by some grateful civvies (I >>think >>that was the case, trying to look back through the bourbon haze here of 10 >>years!) Rather than use the rotten things, and as we were doing the >>Pirates >>of the Vistula at the time, we made up jury rig shore bombardment weapon >>with a bunch of old SKS rifles in a frame, using a common trigger. This 44 >>gallon drum with all these guns set in it on a pintle would be swung >>about, >>and the gunner would yank the lanyard! It's the MLRS the whole family can >>afford, I can get you the stats for a 12 barrel version if you like, they >>take forever to load though! > >I can't post the stats until tommorow, but there is a contraption (built in >the last 20-30 years) that can launch 3 rifle grenades. It is much more >accurate and has better range than shoulder-fired rifle grenades. Both kind of sound like the old ASW mortars mounted on naval ships (and still used by the Russian navy today)... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 16:01:07 -0500 From: "Paul Mulcahy" Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades The French almost exclusively use rifle grenades on their FA-MAS, though they are mounting some shortened M-203PIs on the new version of that rifle (the FA-MAS G2). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 10:10:32 +1200 From: Andrew Tiffany Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades At 00:30 8/08/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:58 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Walter Rebsch wrote: > >>I remember some of the infantry guys were really outstanding with the >>M203's. They didn't bother with the sights half the time. Those guys would >>be shooting the practice grenades through windows 100m away like Michael >>Jordan doing a jump shot. I remember watching them at the range and just >>shaking my head. Some of them are really damn good. But most of those guys >>wouldn't have a clue how to aim a mortar or howitzer. >> >In real life, yes--but TW2K uses the same skill for all forms of IF. There >probably should be a separate skill for grenade launchers and rifle >grenades, but I suppose I'd allow HW, since rifle grenades aren't exactly >going to be using called fire. I seem to recall though there's a rule that >lets you use HW _or_ IF for self-observed fire. You could always choose to make HW a cascade skill, like Small Arms (SA: pistol and SA: rifle). So you could have a HW: grenade wpns and HW: mortars and HW: big guns. How you split the skills up is your choice. Cheers Andrew Tiffany *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:37:09 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades At 10:10 AM 8/9/00 +1200, Andrew Tiffany wrote: >You could always choose to make HW a cascade skill, like Small Arms (SA: >pistol and SA: rifle). So you could have a HW: grenade wpns and HW: >mortars and HW: big guns. How you split the skills up is your choice. > Big guns (like tank guns) I thought were already LCG? HW only covers heavy infantry weapons already. Or did you mean "big infantry guns" by "big guns"? Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:36:40 +1200 From: Andrew Tiffany Subject: RE: Rifle Grenades At 18:37 8/08/00 -0400, you wrote: >At 10:10 AM 8/9/00 +1200, Andrew Tiffany wrote: > >>You could always choose to make HW a cascade skill, like Small Arms (SA: >>pistol and SA: rifle). So you could have a HW: grenade wpns and HW: >>mortars and HW: big guns. How you split the skills up is your choice. >> >Big guns (like tank guns) I thought were already LCG? HW only covers heavy >infantry weapons already. Or did you mean "big infantry guns" by "big guns"? Yeah, sorry, did mean 'big guns' as in artillery pieces. Although, I use Ver 2 of the rules and in that HW is used for *all* heavy weapons from the M2HB up to MRLS/SAM/etc and even for aircraft ordnance. Eg, in the last game I ran, the group had a tanker who took skills in HW and TrVeh (driving & shooting with tanks, nominally) but he was the group's main person for using the mortar, etc too. Cheers Andrew Tiffany *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 07:59:43 -0700 (PDT) From: graebarde Subject: Re: MP TOE - --- OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > Anyone out there know how US Military Police companies at > division level and > US Military Police Brigades at corps level and up (?) are > equipped and > organized circa late 1980's/early 1990's? > > thanks > orrin > Try this out.. it has the info your seeking I think. It has organizational charts and appendix A has the list of equipemnt and personnel in each type MP company (not all MP companies are created equal) FM 19-1 Military Police Support for the Airland Battle May 88 http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/19-1/toc.htm daFORD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 19:54:50 GMT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: AP/AV 700 (was RE: Rifle Grenades) Here's what I was thinking of ... AP/AV 700 grenade launcher Country: Italy Loaded Weight: 11 kg Minimum Range: 100m Maximum Range: 700m The launcher consists of a baseplate and three special barrels, capable of traverse and elevation (from the picture, it looks like all three barrels move together). The barrels can be chambered for 7.62mm NATO or 5.56mm NATO rounds, and fire standard NATO rifle grenades, which are simply slipped over the barrels. source: 20th Century Artillery, by Ian Hogg A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope http://www.geocities.com/copeab ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 20:54:16 GMT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: MP TOE's Well, I found that official Army site with their TO&E's for the MP units. It's actually very detailed ;) here's 2 of the units: US Army MP TOE's: MP Company (Combat Support) - -- 176 personnel (5 officers, 171 enlisted) - -- 147 M1911 pistols - -- 175 M16A1 rifles - -- 44 M203 grenade launchers - -- 44 M60 GPMG's - -- 1 M2 HMG - -- 4 M33 riot control dispersers - -- 4 M190 practice rocket launchers - -- 3 2.5-ton trucks - -- 2 CUCV's - -- 44 Hummers (ARM variant) - -- 1 1.5-ton trailer - -- 17 3/4-ton trailers - -- 1 water trailer - -- 5 AN/VRC-47 radios - -- 41 AN/VRC-46 radios - -- 1 AN/VRC-49 radio - -- 17 AN/PRC-77 radios - -- 70 TSEC/KY Speech Security Equipment - -- 7 Securable Remote Controls - -- 93 PVS-5 Night Vision Goggles - -- 45 TVS-5 Night Vision Sights - -- 8 Platoon Early Warning Systems MP Heavy Security Company - -- 212 personnel (5 officers, 207 enlisted) - -- 34 M1911 pistols - -- 211 M16A1 rifles - -- 48 M203 grenade launchers - -- 54 M60 GPMG's - -- 1 M2 HMG - -- 4 M33 Riot Control Dispensers - -- 16 shotguns (12-gauge) - -- 4 M190 Practice rocket launchers - -- 6 2.5-ton trucks - -- 1 Hummer (Troop variant) - -- 53 Hummers (ARM variant) - -- 2 1.5-ton trailers - -- 21 3/4-ton trailers - -- 3 water trailers - -- 2 AN/VRC-47 radios - -- 32 AN/VRC-46 radios - -- 20 AN/VRC-91 radios - -- 1 AN/PRC-77 radio - -- 77 TSEC/KY Speech Security Equipment - -- 6 Securable Remote Controls - -- 113 PVS-5 Night Vision Goggles - -- 54 TVS-5 Night Vision Sights - -- 20 Platoon Early Warning Systems I know, the Army doesn't officially use the M1911 or M16A1 anymore, but that's what the TOE listed. Unfortunately, I have no idea what a Platoon Early Warning System, M33 Riot Control Dispenser, Securable Remote Control, or TSEC/KY Speech Security Equipment are. Also, I don't understand why they need an M190 practice rocket launcher, or what it would be used for... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:40:23 -0500 From: "Paul Mulcahy" Subject: RE: MP TOE's The PEWS (Platoon Early Warning Sensor) is basically a seismometer hooked to an alarm. the M-33 is a grenade launcher specifically designed to dispense tear gas grenades. The TSEC/KYK is also known as the Vinson module; it is attached to a radio by a cable to scramble broadcasts and descramble incoming broadcasts. I don't know what the Securable Remote Control is. The M-190 is a practice version of the M-72A2 LAW antiarmor rocket; it fires a 20mm sabot with a smoke marking charge in the nose that detonates when it hits the target. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:28:45 GMT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: RE: MP TOE's >that's what the TOE listed. Unfortunately, I have no idea what a Platoon >Early Warning System, M33 Riot Control Dispenser, Securable Remote Control, >or TSEC/KY Speech Security Equipment are. Also, I don't understand why >they >need an M190 practice rocket launcher, or what it would be used for...> >The PEWS (Platoon Early Warning Sensor) is basically a seismometer hooked >to >an alarm. the M-33 is a grenade launcher specifically designed to dispense >tear gas grenades. The TSEC/KYK is also known as the Vinson module; it is >attached to a radio by a cable to scramble broadcasts and descramble >incoming broadcasts. I don't know what the Securable Remote Control is. >The M-190 is a practice version of the M-72A2 LAW antiarmor rocket; it >fires >a 20mm sabot with a smoke marking charge in the nose that detonates when it >hits the target. OK, I get the PEWS, the TSEC, and the M-33. So why do they need the M-190? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: graebarde Subject: RE: MP TOE's > OK, I get the PEWS, the TSEC, and the M-33. So why do > they need the M-190? > They use the M190 to practice firing the LAW.. 20mm ammo is much cheaper than live LAWs.. daFORD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:39:05 GMT From: "Damon Benton" Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question >From: Scott David Orr >Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question >Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:26:24 -0400 > >At 06:30 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Craig Gulledge wrote: > >Does anyone have a notion to the performance characteristics of an > >Orion. > >My question is, can an Orion take off with just two props? > >I know that they can cruise with two, but are two enough to get > >one off the ground? > > >If it can cruise with two, it can take off with two--however, it would take It would also depend on patload, with a full war time payload you would never get off the ground. >a longer runway, and climbing would take longer (maybe _much_ longer in >both cases). > >Scott Orr >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:54:44 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question Damon Benton wrote: > >From: Scott David Orr > >Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com > >To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com > >Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question > >Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:26:24 -0400 > > > >At 06:30 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Craig Gulledge wrote: > > >Does anyone have a notion to the performance characteristics of an > > >Orion. > > >My question is, can an Orion take off with just two props? > > >I know that they can cruise with two, but are two enough to get > > >one off the ground? > > > > >If it can cruise with two, it can take off with two--however, it would take > > It would also depend on patload, with a full war time payload you would > never get off the ground. > >a longer runway, and climbing would take longer (maybe _much_ longer in > >both cases). > > > >Scott Orr Just let them take half the payload, that would probably work - -- Peter Vieth | fitek@ix.netcom.com | http://sanitarium.scizzors.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:55:06 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question Damon Benton wrote: > >From: Scott David Orr > >Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com > >To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com > >Subject: Re: P-3 Orion Question > >Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 20:26:24 -0400 > > > >At 06:30 PM 8/7/00 -0500, Craig Gulledge wrote: > > >Does anyone have a notion to the performance characteristics of an > > >Orion. > > >My question is, can an Orion take off with just two props? > > >I know that they can cruise with two, but are two enough to get > > >one off the ground? > > > > >If it can cruise with two, it can take off with two--however, it would take > > It would also depend on patload, with a full war time payload you would > never get off the ground. > >a longer runway, and climbing would take longer (maybe _much_ longer in > >both cases). > > > >Scott Orr > >*************************************************************************** > >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > By the way, which two engines work - -- Peter Vieth | fitek@ix.netcom.com | http://sanitarium.scizzors.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:58:12 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Silos I was driving down from Oregon to the SF Bay Area and I noticed that there were many silos along the road. Now I'm sure in a T2k setting these silos could be used as lookout towers for anyone watching trade moving down the road (regardless of whether they are used to store goods as well). Does anyone know what silos are made of? What sort of weapons would they withstand hits from? - -- Peter Vieth | fitek@ix.netcom.com | http://sanitarium.scizzors.net *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:28:44 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Silos > From: Peter Vieth > > I was driving down from Oregon to the SF Bay Area and I noticed that > there were many silos along the road. Now I'm sure in a T2k setting > these silos could be used as lookout towers for anyone watching trade > moving down the road (regardless of whether they are used to store goods > as well). Does anyone know what silos are made of? What sort of weapons > would they withstand hits from? Are you talking about grain storage silos? I saw a building which consisted of about 20 of them all attached together that was demolished. The vertical storage shafts were made of reinforced concrete. The building I am talking about was about 10-12 stories high. The shaft walls looked like they were about 8" thick of heavily reinforced concrete near the top, tapering up to about 1.5' thick near the base. Those are just guesses from driving by while they used wrecking balls to slowly break it up. Unlike chimneys, which only have to support their weight and any wind loads, grain storage silos have to resist the very powerful pressures of the material they are storing. My guess is that they would be VERY strong. Also, because they would be stronger than they need to be just to stand up, you could probably blow out a pertty big hole in them and not have them fall. But I'm just guessing. Also, a big pack of them (like the building I saw) probably has thinner walls than one standing by itself. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #172 *************************************