twilight2000-digest Wednesday, July 5 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 153 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Kalisz, almost there. MOUT in T2K RE: MOUT in T2K RE: MOUT in T2K Steyr AUG stats... RE: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Add On Armor RE: Add On Armor RE: Add On Armor RE: Add On Armor RE: Add On Armor Re: Steyr AUG stats... Re: Steyr AUG stats... RE: Steyr AUG stats... Re: Steyr AUG stats... Re: Add On Armor RE: Steyr AUG stats... Re: Add On Armor RE: Add On Armor Re: Add On Armor T2K PbEMs RE: Add On Armor RE: T2K PbEMs RE: T2K PbEMs RE: T2K PbEMs Re: T2K PbEMs ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 07:28:20 PDT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. > > IIRC, the probes were there to detonate reactive armor so it wouldn't > > interfere with the HEAT warhead. > > > > Brandon Cope > >TOW-2A has a precusor warhead on the probe to detonate ERA. Hellfire has a >tandem warhead. The differences are a precusor is easy to refit to existing >missiles, a tandem is usually the same size of close to the main warhead. >The latest generation of ERA from Russia, called KAKTUS, will supposedly >not >be detonated by precusor tip warheads. The probes were originally fitted >for >the reasons above. Have any theories been presented as to how the Enhanced Reactionary Armor (ERA) can tell whether the explosion or plasma jet is from the precursor tip or the main warhead? That seems almost sci-fi fictional in implementation, as it would literally have to identify the weapon coming towards it to be able to react effectively. Plus, even if it does wait to react until the main warhead goes off, won't the precursor warhead be enough to burn through or at least damage the reactive box? >Early HEAT warheads were short and could penetrate 2-4 x warhead diametre. >150mm warhead = 300-600 mm pen >Later warheads 6-7 x or 900 -1050mm. The very recent types (Trigat-MR) >supposedly does 10x or 1500mm! However there is every reason to believe >these figures are the manufactors sales quotes. That is test warheads >suspended next to the armour plate, detonated at the correct standoff >distance. A HOT 3 missile with quoted 1300mm was tested and achieved >1050mm. >Part of the move from 2-4 to 6-7 x warhead diametre was the probe and some >the warhead design. Bottom line is that less or more standoff distance will >affect the actual penetration. Most early AT explosive warheads weren't really HEAT warheads. They were HC, or hollow-charge weapons, where a standard HE warhead was used but with a hollow center. It made a plasma jet, similar to modern HEAT warheads, but wasn't quite as focused or effective (although more effective than an HE shell). With some experimentation, though, they found that instead of hollowing out the center, it was more effective to "hollow out" the nose of the warhead into a reverse cone shape. James Dunnigan has an excellent book, How to Make War, that goes into more detail as to how the penetration/armor protection works. Essentially, he said to take the diameter of the HEAT warhead and multiply by 6 for penetration. Then, for the armor, you multiply the thickness by 2 or 3 for having sloped armor, with an additional x2 or x3 factor for having special armor such as spaced, applique, or Chobham armor. In effect, a tank like the M1 with sloped Chobham armor is supposed to only be defeatable by a missile with a warhead diameter equal to its actual armor thickness. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:30:38 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: MOUT in T2K "In a wargaming exercise three years ago, general officers and colonels were given a scenario called urban canyon. They had to secure and hold a 20-block section of a high-rise commercial district of downtown Seoul, South Korea. With a 10-to-1 favorable casualty rate and an average of 10 seconds to clear a room, experts calculated that securing this 20-block area would take as long as 18 months and require 62 infantry battalions." Urban combat never seems to happen in T2K games, and it's obvious why. The burden on the GM would be huge - mapping and describing a city for the PCs while keeping track of a 3D landscape is almost unthinkable. Has anybody pulled it off? I tried a go at Hue for our Recon variant a few years ago, it's a nightmare for both sides of the screen. The PCs get shot at from all sides by invisible enemies and move like crazy, meanwhile you try and keep track of a whole bunch of snipers, RPG gunners and hidden MG nests. Throw in some civvies and it's a mares nest. Has anyone got any hints, tips or ideas on how to run urban operations for the game? I think my shuddering PbEM players deserve a little MOUT in the future. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:41:45 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: MOUT in T2K > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > > "In a wargaming exercise three years ago, general officers and > colonels were > given a scenario called urban canyon. They had to secure and hold > a 20-block > section of a high-rise commercial district of downtown Seoul, South Korea. > With a 10-to-1 favorable casualty rate and an average of 10 > seconds to clear > a room, experts calculated that securing this 20-block area would take as > long as 18 months and require 62 infantry battalions." > Sounds like they need to use more artillery. 'Ol Ivan's estimate was probably 3 brigades of divisional artillery, 3 brigades of supply trucks hauling ammo, and 1 company of infantry to go count bodies. What's the time estimate for taking 20 blocks of smoldering rubble? Or call in the B-52's ... "almighty almighty, this is PBR streetgang, radio check, over ..." > Urban combat never seems to happen in T2K games, and it's obvious why. > The burden on the GM would be huge - mapping and describing a city for the > PCs while keeping track of a 3D landscape is almost unthinkable. > Has anybody > pulled it off? > I tried a go at Hue for our Recon variant a few years ago, it's a > nightmare for both sides of the screen. The PCs get shot at from all sides > by invisible enemies and move like crazy, meanwhile you try and keep track > of a whole bunch of snipers, RPG gunners and hidden MG nests. > Throw in some > civvies and it's a mares nest. > Has anyone got any hints, tips or ideas on how to run urban operations > for the game? I think my shuddering PbEM players deserve a little MOUT in > the future. > > Jim > Sounds to me like a task for multiple game referee's. Exactly how to split the work load I'm not sure, but I think you'd need at least 2 guys to pull it off decently. Even then it would be really slow playing. You would need at least 1 referee just to play the enemy. He probably should only get info limited to what his guys would really know. It would definately be crazy, but fun. If you could get 5 referee's it would probably go relatively quick. One to liason with the players, one to 'control' the enemy, another assistant to help manage the enemy stats and rolls. One to keep track of lines of sight and who has what targets visible. And one to adjudicate and manage everything. That would require the players to make their own rolls, as well as the 2 ref's to make all the rolls for the enemy. It would probably also require 3 rooms to play in, one for the players, one for the managing ref's only, and one for the 2 ref's running the enemy. The managing ref's would have to keep a master map of all locations for both sides. Of course, finding 5 people to assist like this would probably be next to impossible for most groups unless you were at a game convention. There, it would probably be a big hit if you could pull it off, because no one would ever have played in such a rich complex environment and people wouldn't be very attached to their guys. Sounds like a lot of work and reminds me of how difficult it was back when I played D&D and tried to run a party in a regular popluated city. It was immense amounts of work, but it turned out really well. I remember wishing I had help to run the game back then. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:49:02 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: MOUT in T2K > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > > I think my shuddering PbEM players deserve a little MOUT in the future. > > Jim > I didn't see your last sentence there before I gave that suggestion. I don't know anything about PbEM, so I am probably way off in left field. Maybe you could enlighten those of us who have never done a PbEM game how it works exactly? Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 20:58:17 +0300 From: "Merondil Twiceborn" Subject: Steyr AUG stats... Hey... Anyone got the stats for Steyr AUG or someone know an URL where I could find 'em? Thanks anyway... - -Eero Haapamäki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:15:11 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: RE: Kalisz, almost there. >From: "Walter Rebsch" > > From: Brandon Cope > > > > > > > IIRC, the probes were there to detonate reactive armor so it wouldn't > > interfere with the HEAT warhead. > > > > > > A generous and sadistic GM, > > Brandon Cope > > > >According to here: > >http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/tow.htm > >the probe was to enhance penetration. Apparently, it wasn't until the 2A >that reactive armor was defeated. Apparently my sources were wrong ... >I'd like to know how they made the TOW 2A able to defeat reactive armor. >I'm thinking it's probably a 2 stage warhead, but I'm only blindly >guessing. AFAIK, yes, it uses a multi-stage (perhaps tandem might be a better word) HEAT warhead. Of course, I've been wrong before ... Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:40:27 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Add On Armor >From: "Ballistix" > > > However i would find it very likely in a T2000 like scenario that some >or > > all the combatants would have tank destroyers in their arsenal for >various > > economic and infrastructure reasons. My guess is that you could probably > > fit a 105mm or even 120mm main gun into a roughly Bradley sized vehicle >if > > you were willing to sacrifice such niceties such as turrets, 4 man crew, > > heavy armor (espesially side and rear armor) and to some extent range >and > > ammo capacity. > >On this note the Australian Mechanised Infantry units used to have a 106mm >(from memory) recoiless rifle mounted upon a land rover. This was used as >in an AT role, basically HIT & RUN then send someone is to see what damage >you did. > I play Steel Panthers III ocassionally, and I've noticed at one time or another most countries have played around with the "recoilless rifle on jeep" concept (in WWII, the US mounted 57mm AT guns on some M3 halftracks and, I think, some 37mm AT guns on some 3/4 ton cargo trucks; other nations used similar contraptions). Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:40:17 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Add On Armor > From: Brandon Cope > > > >On this note the Australian Mechanised Infantry units used to > have a 106mm > >(from memory) recoiless rifle mounted upon a land rover. This was used as > >in an AT role, basically HIT & RUN then send someone is to see > what damage > >you did. > > > > I play Steel Panthers III ocassionally, and I've noticed at one time or > another most countries have played around with the "recoilless rifle on > jeep" concept (in WWII, the US mounted 57mm AT guns on some M3 halftracks > and, I think, some 37mm AT guns on some 3/4 ton cargo trucks; > other nations > used similar contraptions). > > Brandon > The funniest one I recall seeing was a US vietnam-era tank destroyer with 6 x 106mm Recoilless rifles on top of a small chassis. I guess they didn't like getting out to reload... Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:01:10 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: RE: Add On Armor >From: "Walter Rebsch" > > > From: Brandon Cope > > > > > >On this note the Australian Mechanised Infantry units used to > > have a 106mm > > >(from memory) recoiless rifle mounted upon a land rover. This was used >as > > >in an AT role, basically HIT & RUN then send someone is to see > > what damage > > >you did. > > > > > > > I play Steel Panthers III ocassionally, and I've noticed at one time or > > another most countries have played around with the "recoilless rifle on > > jeep" concept (in WWII, the US mounted 57mm AT guns on some M3 >halftracks > > and, I think, some 37mm AT guns on some 3/4 ton cargo trucks; > > other nations > > used similar contraptions). > > > > Brandon > > > >The funniest one I recall seeing was a US vietnam-era tank destroyer with 6 >x 106mm Recoilless rifles on top of a small chassis. I guess they didn't >like getting out to reload... The Ontos, which was only in service for about 5-6 years (although Japan used a similar vehicle for several years). The outermost gun on each side could be removed and mounted on a standard RR tripod if needed. The vehicle, IIRC, was light enough to be air transported. But, the dust it kicked up when firing and the crew being forced to exit to reload were both *huge* disadvantages. AFAIK, all the vehicles were scrapped, but one or two may exist at a museum or such. Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 09:10:30 +1200 From: Andrew Tiffany Subject: RE: Add On Armor > >The funniest one I recall seeing was a US vietnam-era tank destroyer with 6 >x 106mm Recoilless rifles on top of a small chassis. I guess they didn't >like getting out to reload... Was a big discussion about this beastie on the CDmailer list a while back - called the Ontos. Designed as a 'shoot-and-scoot' tank-killer. It also had 6 co-axial .50 cals, one beside to each Rcls Rfl barrel, for targeting purposes. Cheers Andrew Tiffany *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:25:27 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: RE: Add On Armor >From: Andrew Tiffany > > > > >The funniest one I recall seeing was a US vietnam-era tank destroyer with >6 > >x 106mm Recoilless rifles on top of a small chassis. I guess they didn't > >like getting out to reload... > >Was a big discussion about this beastie on the CDmailer list a while back - >called the Ontos. Designed as a 'shoot-and-scoot' tank-killer. It also >had 6 co-axial .50 cals, one beside to each Rcls Rfl barrel, for targeting >purposes. IIRC, they fired special ammo that was ballistically matched to the 106mm HEAT round. They used a 10 round magazine. Basically, the gunner was supposed to fire the spotting rifle until he observed a hit, then *immediately* fire the RR. I think most of the larger RRs use some sort of attached spotting rifle. Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:36:53 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: Steyr AUG stats... Assuming that you can use the game stats from v2.0 All of the models I have listed from IWW use 5.56N ROF DAM Pen Blk Mag SS Brst Rng Wt Steyr Aug Rifle 5 3 1-nil 4 30 3 8 50 3.3 Carbine Model 5 3 1-nil 3 30 4 9 45 3.1 LMG Model 10 3 1-nil 4 30 4 18 50 3.4 bipod 10 3 1-nil 4 30 2 9 65 I don't think the weight for the LMG model includes a bipod, either that or it could be wrong. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:49:24 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: Steyr AUG stats... Forgot to tack this website on the bottom of my last post http://www.nasog.net/weapons/ar/Steyr_Mannlicher_AUG.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:11:57 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Steyr AUG stats... > From: JC > > Assuming that you can use the game stats from v2.0 > All of the models I have listed from IWW use 5.56N > > ROF DAM Pen Blk Mag SS Brst Rng Wt > Steyr Aug Rifle 5 3 1-nil 4 30 3 8 > 50 3.3 > Carbine Model 5 3 1-nil 3 30 4 9 45 3.1 > LMG Model 10 3 1-nil 4 30 4 18 50 3.4 > bipod 10 3 1-nil 4 30 2 9 65 > > I don't think the weight for the LMG model includes a bipod, either > that or it could be wrong. > > Regards, > > JC Eero, If your interested in any more info, it can be found all over the web. Just use a good search engine (my favorites are www.altavista.com and www.dogpile.com) and you'll find tons of stuff. A couple places I ran into on the Steyr AUG are: Here is a long writeup on various variants: http://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/edit/augsof.htm A couple basic stats and pics of each variant: http://www.greendevils.com.pl/technika_wojskowa/bron/steyr/steyr.html Some interesting user info on them: http://www.recguns.com/IIID2b193.html They are for sale here: http://www.midwestordnance.com/steyr.htm Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:20:25 +0300 From: "Merondil Twiceborn" Subject: Re: Steyr AUG stats... > They are for sale here: http://www.midwestordnance.com/steyr.htm > > Walter > > *************************************************************************** For sale? For SALE?? I understand that you may not know this but I am 14 (!) and thus don't have a licence to have any firearms... (And in Finland you need a special Firearms licence to carrying one... no free rights for that). But anyways... Thanks guys - -Eero Haapamäki *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:23:35 -0700 (PDT) From: graebarde Subject: Re: Add On Armor > >On this note the Australian Mechanised Infantry units > used to have a 106mm > >(from memory) recoiless rifle mounted upon a land rover. > This was used as > >in an AT role, basically HIT & RUN then send someone is > to see what damage > >you did. > > > Until the fielding of the TOW system, the standard infantry heavy AT weapon was the 106mm RR on a 1/4 ton "jeep". There were about 12 per infantry battalion (2 per company, plus 6 in combat support company). The USMC had a tracked vehicle called the Ontos (?) on which there were I beleive SIX 106mm RR. Loaded with beehives, they were VERY effective agains any "Human Waves", but dont know how effective they would have been against armor. daFORD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:44:04 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Steyr AUG stats... > From: Merondil Twiceborn > > > > They are for sale here: http://www.midwestordnance.com/steyr.htm > > > > Walter > > > > > ****************************************************************** > ********* > > For sale? For SALE?? I understand that you may not know this but > I am 14 (!) > and thus don't have a licence to have any firearms... (And in Finland you > need a special Firearms licence to carrying one... no free rights > for that). > But anyways... Thanks guys > > -Eero Haapamäki > > Ahh yes, probably not a good idea for you to go buy one then. Walter PS: But if you have an extra 4000 dollars lying around that you can send me, I'd be happy to buy one and test it for you! I promise to provide very detailed reports of all the stats you want ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 16:53:16 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Add On Armor At 02:11 PM 7/5/00 +1000, Peter wrote: > > >If most tanks have reverted to manual FC surely light tanks would be >surviveable? Use speed as a form of armour like the Leopard 1 & AMX-30. > The conclusion is okay, but I'd question the premise: even if EMP fried most of the FC equipment, the number of tanks still in service is a tiny fraction of the number original in service and built later. Most losses (unless they caught fire) would have had salvageable equipment of some sort, meaning that the number of FC sets should be much higher than the number of operable tanks. Hence, even if only a few FC sets survived the EMP, most tanks would still have them. (The same principle, BTW, would apply to a lot of different spare parts, since even though the same parts tend to _break_down_ on every vehicle of a given type, the parts that break down probably aren't the same ones that tend to be lost when a vehicle is put out of action by enemy fire.) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 17:56:49 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: Add On Armor At 09:10 AM 7/6/00 +1200, Andrew Tiffany wrote: > >> >>The funniest one I recall seeing was a US vietnam-era tank destroyer with 6 >>x 106mm Recoilless rifles on top of a small chassis. I guess they didn't >>like getting out to reload... > >Was a big discussion about this beastie on the CDmailer list a while back - >called the Ontos. Designed as a 'shoot-and-scoot' tank-killer. It also >had 6 co-axial .50 cals, one beside to each Rcls Rfl barrel, for targeting >purposes. > Where engagement ranges are short, it's really not clear that a true tank has any advantage over a lightly armored tank destroyer (enough to protect against light guns and infantry weapons): at short ranges (as would be typical of engagements in most of Central Europe), any hit against an MBT by another MBT is almost automatically going to be lethal, which means that above the point needed to fend off light guns, extra armor is effectively useless. The one thing it's useful for is defeating missiles, some of which do have trouble against the frontal armor of some MBT's--once the missiles are all gone, though, this factor doesn't look so important. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 15:45:25 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Add On Armor >From: graebarde > > > >On this note the Australian Mechanised Infantry units > > used to have a 106mm > > >(from memory) recoiless rifle mounted upon a land rover. > > This was used as > > >in an AT role, basically HIT & RUN then send someone is > > to see what damage > > >you did. > > > > > > >The USMC had a tracked vehicle called the Ontos (?) on >which there were I beleive SIX 106mm RR. Loaded with >beehives, they were VERY effective agains any "Human >Waves", but dont know how effective they would have been >against armor. > M50 106mm Self-Propelled Multiple Rifle Weight: 8.64 tonnes Crew: 3 Armament: 6x106mm RCL rifles M40A1C with 18 rounds Armor: 13mm Speed: 48 kph Range: 240 km # Made: 297 Introduced: 1963 Withdraw: 1970 The guns were on a limited traverse turret. As I mentioned earlier, the two outer guns could be removed and used on tripods. It was used by the Marines in Vietnam and the Dominican Republic, mainly in the ground support role. The backblast and need to reload in the open *severely* restricted operations. Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:59:32 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: T2K PbEMs >> I think my shuddering PbEM players deserve a little MOUT in the future. >> Jim > >I didn't see your last sentence there before I gave that suggestion. I >don't know anything about PbEM, so I am probably way off in left field. >Maybe you could enlighten those of us who have never done a PbEM game how it >works exactly? >Walter If you're unable to table top like I am, (my group is on the mainland in Sydney and I'm in Tasmania), then it's the next best thing : ) Essentially, it's just like a normal game except that it's far slower and tends to address longer rounds. The ones I've been in tend to focus in very heavily on characterisation as it's a little hard to go round-by-round for combat. The games are often run through mailer list's like E-Groups and are (or should be) free. I hope my PCs won't mind, but I'll cut and paste a post out of todays turn. The groups has been caught out in the open by an infantry position and are in a bit of a fix. (This particular game is based on a functioning NATO unit in 2001, but most are 'straight T2K') (GMs post) >Smoke haze hangs over the houses on the ridge, it's now almost impossible to make out firing positions up there. Williams grenade is now pouring thick smoke that's being blown down to the river by a gentle breeze and provides good obscurement for you. > >[MAC] (Corporal Macyntyre [PC], pasted into GMs post) >"Good to go" (GM describing an NPC) >Lee low crawls across the fire swept ground, muttering to himself about retirement benefits to stop his teeth from chattering. He has to stop and push his face into the dirt when geysers of dead leaves and mud are churned up around him but is miraculously untouched, he scampers along side Mac and >readies an ammo can before getting his M16 into a fire position again. Mac is whispering a mantra to himself in time with his firing that Lee can't make out, he can make out the M249's tracers blowing the crap out of >the buildings up the ridge though. > >[Mac} >"Lee, I need you to hand tight here and drop me another cassette of five-five-six." (GM) >The houses take the full brunt of your groups firepower, doors are blown in and walls shot to bits but they are built strongly Thick purple smoke is now obscuring the ridge, fire from up there lessens dramatically, just a few scattered shots aimed into your area more from malice than from any practical value, although these wild shots would kill you just as efficiently as an aimed one . . . > >[Actions?] (Call for next turns actions) > >[Mac] >"Ski, Muck we need to bound off this ridge. I am going to lay down fire and you guys abound back to 'E' and Hendrickson. Then lay down some fire so Lee and I can bound back. Got it?" > > > >"El-Tee, got anything to add?" > >MAC >SAW firing >0611 The GM has posted a turn, and the player has placed some extra short statements in to round it out. Afterwards, the GM has called for actions and the player has talked to two nearby PCs ('Ski' & 'Muck'), he needs an answer from them () and then he's asked the LT if he want's to supply some extra info. He's then added a brief note saying who he is, what he's doing and carrying in the way of weaponry and what time it is. The game I run is fast posting, every two or three days. Most PbEMs are weekly and the turns need to be a lot more detailed. I like fast posting games, but I have a huge amount of time to lavish on my game and an amazingly understanding wife (sometimes). The amount of character that comes out of some posts is amazing, I think I could pick some of my players PCs out of a line up! Also, because you *days* to make a statement, you find you tend to come out with better posts than you thought you could come up with. Finally, and I don't know why this is, most PbEMs go for a specific aspect of the game world. I'm right into the angsty, gloomy T2K, gone to hell in a hand basket setting. Orrin's great game is based (I think) on the survival, escape and evasion aspect. Other's focus on rebuilding, combat or any other of the T2K game. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:34:20 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Add On Armor > From: Scott David Orr > > > At 02:11 PM 7/5/00 +1000, Peter wrote: > > > > > >If most tanks have reverted to manual FC surely light tanks would be > >surviveable? Use speed as a form of armour like the Leopard 1 & AMX-30. > > > The conclusion is okay, but I'd question the premise: even if EMP fried > most of the FC equipment, the number of tanks still in service is a tiny > fraction of the number original in service and built later. Most losses > (unless they caught fire) would have had salvageable equipment of some > sort, meaning that the number of FC sets should be much higher than the > number of operable tanks. Hence, even if only a few FC sets survived the > EMP, most tanks would still have them. (The same principle, BTW, would > apply to a lot of different spare parts, since even though the same parts > tend to _break_down_ on every vehicle of a given type, the parts > that break > down probably aren't the same ones that tend to be lost when a vehicle is > put out of action by enemy fire.) > > Scott Orr > It seems tremendously unlikely to me that EMP would be a primary contributor of FC equipment failure in tanks. Either the tank is going to be close enough to a nuke to have other, more pressing problems. Or the tank is going to be far enough that the shielding of the tank and the electronic systems EMP hardening would protect it's systems. The only thing I can imagine being hurt on a tank by EMP is the radios. And even those can be protected if you unplug the antenna. FC failure would probably come mainly from regular ol' wear and tear. You know, connectors corroding, temperature stress cracking fragile solid state wires, optics getting cracked or broken, and the ever present threat of a SABOT round obliterating it into a million pieces. But treated even moderately well most military solid-state stuff should last effectively forever. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:41:18 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: T2K PbEMs > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > > I'm in Tasmania Tasmania?!? You have electricity in Tasmania? Just kidding ... :) > Essentially, it's just like a normal game except that it's far slower > and tends to address longer rounds. The ones I've been in tend to focus in > very heavily on characterisation as it's a little hard to go > round-by-round > for combat. The games are often run through mailer list's like > E-Groups and > are (or should be) free. I hope my PCs won't mind, but I'll cut > and paste a > post out of todays turn. The groups has been caught out in the open by an > infantry position and are in a bit of a fix. (This particular > game is based > on a functioning NATO unit in 2001, but most are 'straight T2K') > Sounds pretty cool. And yes, slower is better than nothing ... Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 17:33:46 -0700 (PDT) From: graebarde Subject: RE: T2K PbEMs - --- Walter Rebsch wrote: > > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > > > > > I'm in Tasmania > > Tasmania?!? You have electricity in Tasmania? Just > kidding ... :) > > Actually Jims electric power comes from 'possums!!!:) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 13:40:11 NZST From: "Matt Swain" Subject: RE: T2K PbEMs (OK, OK, so I snipped the whole message - shoot me :) Are there any sites advertising for T2K or M2K PBeM games? Our game got shut down in favour of a SpellJammer AD&D game, and I'm keen to keep on shootin'! Matt ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:56:51 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: T2K PbEMs >(OK, OK, so I snipped the whole message - shoot me :) > >Are there any sites advertising for T2K or M2K PBeM games? Our game got shut >down in favour of a SpellJammer AD&D game, and I'm keen to keep on shootin'! >Matt Actually, I prefer it if people cut the posts. I hate reading the same thing over and over. Mine's full up at the moment, and I have a waiting list that's kinda full. You can try at: http://www.pbem.com/ or just 'watch this space!' because most GMs are members of this list and advertise for players here. Also, you could go over to Loonz's site and look at his links page: http://loonz.freeservers.com/t2k/links.htm And a few games are listed, but I'm not sure how current they are. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #153 *************************************