twilight2000-digest Saturday, July 1 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 149 The following topics are covered in this digest: Foreign History Lessons Re: Foreign History Lessons Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: World war 2 again Re: EPW's Email Game Modern Armies Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Foreign History Lessons Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: EPW's Re: Harpoon Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: EPW's Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Foreign History Lessons Re: Foreign History Lessons Re: Modern Armies Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Foreign History Lessons Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Harpoon Re: EPW's Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: Foreign History Lessons Public Apology navy in twilight Different stories Re: Public Apology Question on Links Re: Different stories Re: Kalisz, almost there. Re: Kalisz, almost there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:46:49 CDT From: "OVH \(Paul\)" Subject: Foreign History Lessons Growing up in Canada we were taught quite a bit about our history. From the Battle at Vimy Ridge(where the Britsh, Aussies, French and SOuth Africans failed to take it, they gave it to the Canadians who took it in 3 hours), to the Canadian pilot who shot down Baron VonRichtofen(The Red Baron), to our landing at Juno beach on D-Day, Flanders Field, Our campaigns in the Atlantic and Pacific and the Canadian Army's advance through Europe with the rest of the Allied Armies. There has never been an official declaration from the United States as to how many Canadians served with the Unites States Army in Vietnam but the general consenus is around 26,000 and there are two Canadian Vietnam veterans who live in my small hometown. It was interesting to read (I cant remember who wrote it, I just know you are an Aussie) about how the British viewed the Aussies, as the British viewed the Canadians as the same: drunk, undisciplined and violent. But I also know that the British never underestimated the fighting prowess of the Canadian and Aussie solider either. My girlfriend is from Perth, Australia and her Grandfather(He was a Brit) served with the 43rd Wessex at Arnhem and he got to know many Canadians who fought there as well. I have noticed that a lot of people have a somewhat hostile view of the Americans though it is not that prevalent here since we are close neighbours. I think the Americans are generally misunderstood by a lot of the worlds population, although I do have to agree that they do tend to have a bit of a 'complex'. But what can I say, some of my best friends are Americans and I like them. I do notice that one history lesson that is totally absent from American history books is the War of 1812 between the United States and Canada. I think that was the first war the Americans REALLY lost. I would love to hear more from you Aussies out there, I am visiting your country at the end of August(Perth bound I am,hehehe). Take care all! - -Paul ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:57:06 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons At 01:46 PM 6/30/00 CDT, OVH \(Paul\) wrote: >I do notice that one history >lesson that is totally absent from American history books is the War of 1812 >between the United States and Canada. I think that was the first war the >Americans REALLY lost. It's present in most history curricula in the U.S., as far as I know. However, only in Canada and the UK is it taught as a war that the U.S. lost; here, it's taught as a draw in the war itself,* with the U.S. more or less "winning the peace" by achieving its main war aims, the cessation of British harassment of U.S. shipping. In other countries, it's taught somewhere in between those two poles--however, I don't think anyone outside Canada or Great Britain gives credence to the idea that the reason for the war was a U.S. desire to seize Canada. Scott Orr * The invasion of Canada was turned back, and Britain imposed a blockade, but OTOH the U.S. Navy humiliated the Royal Navy in the few 1-on-1 fights that took place (a matter more of pride than strategic importance), and two prongs of the three-pronged British offensive at the end of the war were soundly defeated (most Canadians, you'll find, aren't terribly familiar with the Battle of Lake Champlain). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:00:59 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. At 05:07 PM 6/30/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > *I can't see the US cancelling the M8 in 1997 anymore!) > You're probably right, but I don't see light tanks being deployed with a mechanized infantry divsion (weren't they designed to support light infantry, or something like that?), except maybe as casualty replacements if they were easier to make as MBT's--I suspect that at any rate such a unit would only have a handful of them. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:20:39 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: World war 2 again At 07:04 AM 6/30/00 PDT, Stephen Dragoo wrote: >Oh, and don't forget how, after they let the Germans keep that mineral, >coal, and ore-rich valley (I think it's the Rhone, or something like that), >and only requiring that it be kept free of German military forces, the >French then invaded and occupied the territory to shore up their sagging >economy. Well, Hitler got the French back for that. He even forced the >French to surrender to him in the same railcar that was used to sign the >Treaty of Versailles, just to ram the irony down their throats until they >choked on it. The French WHAT? I think you're confusing a German militarization with a French invsaion. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:25:38 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: EPW's At 01:55 PM 6/25/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: >> I just think it is possible to weed out the vast majority of people that >> can't handle it, before you get to combat. But your right, you don't KNOW >> before the bullets start flying. > >Well to put my 2 cents in, I have to agree with the original comment. It >doesn't matter how hard the training is in reality. Ultimately until your on >the two way range you never know how people will react. The toughest >guy that everyone thinks will win a medal as he's a hard nut, will more >than likely be the one turning to jelly when you need him most. The one >you're least likely to think would support you is usually the one that >storms the MG nest bayoneting every one inside and tearing their guts out. > In any case, I don't see why an REMF would automatically be expected to be more likely to panic than a green infantrymen--after all, all the powers involved were short on manpower, and could afford to be weeding people out. Mind you, in the case of Saving Private Ryan, the other troops in the rescue team were hand-picked veterans. >The main idea behind training now days is to have you overcome that >natural safety catch that you have in built not to kill another person. > >It is also the reason that there is a higher % of Post Traumatic Stress >Syndrome >after modern wars and conflicts than there was in WW I & II. Just some >stats for you on this. It is estimated that in WW I only 5% of shots fired >were actually aimed to hit the mark. Compared to 75% of those fired >in Vietnam. These are from an Australian military magazine by the way. > I've heard the WWII figures called into question, though (they come from the research of one guy--can't remember the name). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:04:08 CDT From: "OVH \(Paul\)" Subject: Email Game Hi everybody. I am looking for a T2K email game I can get in on. Anybody know of any currently in progress? Have a great weekend! Paul ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:04:12 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Modern Armies >By the way, for anyone who wants to see a well researched and decently made >movie about Grenada, 'Heartbreak Ridge' is pretty good. Not perfect by any >stretch, but pretty good. Even though a some of the acting is rather corny, >and it's not historically perfect, the movie contains a lot more truths in >it than fictions. It captures a lot of the right feel and attitude of the >time and place. It's also the first movie I've ever seen that accurately >depicts a short little airborne training op. > >Walter For an interesting slant on Grenada, you may want to read 'Secret Armies'. I don't know the author or the ISBN (Ad, if you're reading this can you check your copy and post the details?) but it is incredibly informative on how to blow a low key operation into a fully fledged invasion over interservice rivalries, and then work against yourself to provide an inefficient force structure. It was the quality and number of the troops that let the US prevail at Grenada, their command structure was actually a hostile element they had to overcome. Playing a Merc or T2K scenario in a situation where everyone wants to get a slice of the glory is a good opportunity to see a well organised and modern force work against itself. If the players are the OPFOR of a modern western army they usually get splattered, in part due to the phenomenal mobility and sheer manpower available to these forces. But if interservice rivalries and a contempt for the enemy is evident, there may be loopholes that the players can exploit. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:26:31 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. - -----Original Message----- From: Scott David Orr To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Date: Saturday, 1 July 2000 8:05 Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. >At 05:07 PM 6/30/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > >> *I can't see the US cancelling the M8 in 1997 anymore!) >> >You're probably right, but I don't see light tanks being deployed with a >mechanized infantry divsion (weren't they designed to support light >infantry, or something like that?), except maybe as casualty replacements >if they were easier to make as MBT's--I suspect that at any rate such a >unit would only have a handful of them. > >Scott Orr The tables allow for twice as many Light AFV's as MBT's. I thought they'd be a nice addition, a purely personal view, as the players should get a bit of exposure to groovy stuff if possible in my opinion! I'll do the opposing forces in a couple of days if anyones interested. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:47:06 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons In a message dated 06/30/2000 11:54:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vonhuge@hotmail.com writes: << I do notice that one history lesson that is totally absent from American history books is the War of 1812 between the United States and Canada. I think that was the first war the Americans REALLY lost. >> Hey man, We remember the War of 1812, the only time our capitol was sacked and burnt. Our payback is stealing all the NHL teams and moving them into places like Los Angeles, San Jose, Nashville, Atlanta and Florida. have a safe 4th of July everyone! orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:50:22 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. In a message dated 06/30/2000 12:17:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jimpeta@primus.com.au writes: << Well guys, here we are at Wloclawek. We should be Lodz in a couple of days, I heard that the cav have scouted as far as Krosniewice. This should be a push over, I wish we'd stayed with Panzergruppe Oberdorf, we'd get to see some action there! This is what we're packing, no way Ivan can stand against all this! US 5th Infantry Division (Mechanised) (cool stuff snipped)>> Jim must be bored. Sorry Jim, today is the beginning of a long weekend for most of us in the states. orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:52:34 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: EPW's In a message dated 06/29/2000 8:53:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, walter@houston.rr.com writes: << Well, since we aren't talking about too much else (sorry Orrin), maybe we can discuss WWII a bit? I'd certainly be interested in hearing some non-American points of view on WWII. >> Its ok man, I got what I needed and most of this other stuff is cool too. I'd rather the list be used for something rather than nothing. orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:54:37 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Harpoon In a message dated 06/29/2000 12:17:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, copeab@hotmail.com writes: << I have the "classic" Windows 3.X edition on CD. It covers: GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) Gap North Atlantic Convoys the Mediteranean (sp) Indian Ocean plus two extra battlesets for each region. >> coolness! thanks dude! orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:00:52 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ballistix To: Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 3:48 PM Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude > Ok I also live in Australia and the history as described by Jim > is pretty much the standard. Things celebrated or that do come > to the fore are these > > Boer War - South Africa This is before the states in Australia formed a nation. Individual states sent units. > Anzac Cove - The disaster given to the Australians as the British > were tactically useless. One of my instructors joined the Australian Army from the British Army in the 1980s. He was amazed by the anti-Brit history in Australia. Is should be noted that Australian generals were as efficient in getting the frontline troops killed as British. Liewise there were more Indian troops at this action as Australians > 'Duty First' it's the RAR motto live by it. > > Ballistix The Australian army fought in WW2, then went onto occupation duties in Japan, then fought in Korea, Brunei, Malaya and then Vietnam. The NCOs were very experienced by this time. The Australian army was said to be better at small unit actions, the US at large operations. Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:53:18 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: EPW's - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:25 AM Subject: Re: EPW's > At 01:55 PM 6/25/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: > >The main idea behind training now days is to have you overcome that > >natural safety catch that you have in built not to kill another person. > > > >It is also the reason that there is a higher % of Post Traumatic Stress > >Syndrome > >after modern wars and conflicts than there was in WW I & II. Just some > >stats for you on this. It is estimated that in WW I only 5% of shots fired > >were actually aimed to hit the mark. Compared to 75% of those fired > >in Vietnam. These are from an Australian military magazine by the way. > > > I've heard the WWII figures called into question, though (they come from > the research of one guy--can't remember the name). > > Scott Orr >From the army magazine Ballistix mentioned: Lt-Col Dave Grossman wrote a book, 'On Killing - The Psychological cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society'. Grossman's theory can be read online at http://www.killology.com Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:41:35 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. > At 05:07 PM 6/30/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > > > *I can't see the US cancelling the M8 in 1997 anymore!) > > > You're probably right, but I don't see light tanks being deployed with a > mechanized infantry divsion (weren't they designed to support light > infantry, or something like that?), except maybe as casualty replacements > if they were easier to make as MBT's--I suspect that at any rate such a > unit would only have a handful of them. > > Scott Orr I can see the use for light tanks with RDF style forces, but in Central Europe during WW3? One of the M1 Abram production plants could supposdely double production in 6 months, then double that again in another 12 months. The major bottleneck would have been thermal imagers and other electronics. Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:30:26 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons Well you will have to let those of us who live in Perth a bell..ie me when you get over here. > the Canadian pilot who shot down Baron VonRichtofen(The Red Baron), There is no confirmation of this you know ;) Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:33:49 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons I think the problem we have here is the same one you find in every version of history. It's written to suit which ever side the historian is on. Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:40:34 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Modern Armies > Playing a Merc or T2K scenario in a situation where everyone wants to > get a slice of the glory is a good opportunity to see a well organised and > modern force work against itself. If the players are the OPFOR of a modern > western army they usually get splattered, in part due to the phenomenal > mobility and sheer manpower available to these forces. But if interservice > rivalries and a contempt for the enemy is evident, there may be loopholes > that the players can exploit. The chance of getting splattered is directly proportional to how mindless you are when carrying out your orders :). Also how willing you are to follow an order that is complete stupid. Situations like the one you described above, sure would have your little scroungers active .... Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:46:50 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. At 11:26 AM 7/1/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > > The tables allow for twice as many Light AFV's as MBT's. I thought >they'd be a nice addition, a purely personal view, as the players should get >a bit of exposure to groovy stuff if possible in my opinion! I'll do the >opposing forces in a couple of days if anyones interested. However, light AFV's in a mechanized division would be APC's or CFV's--not light tanks. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 01:07:23 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons At 05:33 PM 6/25/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: >I think the problem we have here is the same one you find in every >version of history. It's written to suit which ever side the historian >is on. > That's simply not true, though it may have been before the 20th century (and still is in places that aren't quite modern). Yes, historians have biases, and those biases are often nationalistic ones, but they do try very hard to get it right, not merely to prop up national myths. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:31:01 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim & Peta Lawrie To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:26 AM Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. > The tables allow for twice as many Light AFV's as MBT's. I thought > they'd be a nice addition, a purely personal view, as the players should get > a bit of exposure to groovy stuff if possible in my opinion! I'll do the > opposing forces in a couple of days if anyones interested. > Jim Sure Jim, I'd be interested in seeing the opposition. Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 17:03:10 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. >> The tables allow for twice as many Light AFV's as MBT's. I thought >>they'd be a nice addition, a purely personal view, as the players should get >>a bit of exposure to groovy stuff if possible in my opinion! I'll do the >>opposing forces in a couple of days if anyones interested. > >However, light AFV's in a mechanized division would be APC's or CFV's--not >light tanks. >Scott Orr This is getting silly, but: 30 x Stingray Light Tank (105mm) 30 x M3 Devers CFV (25mm + TOW) 24 x M8 Buford AGS (105mm)* The Stingrays are already being buillt and readyilly available so I added them and just 24 M8's as battlefield replacements. APC's and IFV's are a seperate category. Enough already! JIm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 08:01:23 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Harpoon >From: OrrinLadd@aol.com > >In a message dated 06/29/2000 12:17:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >copeab@hotmail.com writes: ><< > I have the "classic" Windows 3.X edition on CD. It covers: > > GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) Gap > North Atlantic Convoys > the Mediteranean (sp) > Indian Ocean > > plus two extra battlesets for each region. >> > >coolness! thanks dude! I've found that it's pretty fun to play the non-NATO vs non-USSR scenarios. Brandon ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:19:36 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: EPW's Thanks for that Peter....didn't realise it was online cool. Ballistix - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter" To: Sent: Saturday, 1 July 2000 11:53 Subject: Re: EPW's > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Scott David Orr > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 7:25 AM > Subject: Re: EPW's > > > > At 01:55 PM 6/25/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: > > > >The main idea behind training now days is to have you overcome that > > >natural safety catch that you have in built not to kill another person. > > > > > >It is also the reason that there is a higher % of Post Traumatic Stress > > >Syndrome > > >after modern wars and conflicts than there was in WW I & II. Just some > > >stats for you on this. It is estimated that in WW I only 5% of shots > fired > > >were actually aimed to hit the mark. Compared to 75% of those fired > > >in Vietnam. These are from an Australian military magazine by the way. > > > > > I've heard the WWII figures called into question, though (they come from > > the research of one guy--can't remember the name). > > > > Scott Orr > > From the army magazine Ballistix mentioned: > Lt-Col Dave Grossman wrote a book, 'On Killing - The Psychological cost of > Learning to Kill in War and Society'. Grossman's theory can be read online > at http://www.killology.com > > Peter G > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:22:57 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude > One of my instructors joined the Australian Army from the British Army in > the 1980s. He was amazed by the anti-Brit history in Australia. Is should be > noted that Australian generals were as efficient in getting the frontline > troops killed as British. Liewise there were more Indian troops at this > action as Australians yes, see snipped info about General Hague.....Not a very well liked general to say the least. > The Australian army fought in WW2, then went onto occupation duties in > Japan, then fought in Korea, Brunei, Malaya and then Vietnam. The NCOs were > very experienced by this time. The Australian army was said to be better at > small unit actions, the US at large operations. Korea, Brunei, Malaya aren't generally known conflicts taught in history lessons though, Hence I didn't include them. You could elaborate however Peter seeing as you have brought them up ;) Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:25:58 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Foreign History Lessons > That's simply not true, though it may have been before the 20th century > (and still is in places that aren't quite modern). Yes, historians have > biases, and those biases are often nationalistic ones, but they do try very > hard to get it right, not merely to prop up national myths. We do now days yes. Unfortunately for us not all of the information is available anymore especially with a large portion of the veterans passing away now. Because of this we tend to hypothesise a fair bit about what this person or that person did or why. The truth is unless you had that person here today to ask why you will never really know yes? Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:28:30 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Public Apology Well to everyone on the list I do owe an apology. I have read my email about some of the History to do with wars that Australia was involved in. I have to apologise for the patriotic remarks about Australia as I have in the past flamed a few people when they posted remarks to how they thought their country was the best thing since sliced bread. Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 09:32:28 PDT From: "matthew henley" Subject: navy in twilight the talk about the harpoon computer game started me think, Has any one used the Navy as a source of pc's and adventurs in there twilight games. You could still do small unit actions by haveing your players going on reconsinc and "forging" missons.(The articals on ships and the us cost gard in chalnge magazine gave me the idea.) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 02:38:18 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Different stories >Korea, Brunei, Malaya aren't generally known conflicts taught in history >lessons >though, Hence I didn't include them. You could elaborate however Peter >seeing >as you have brought them up ;) >Ballistix One thing I will mention, I had a Malaysian girlfriend years ago and she got very upset when I mentioned that Australians fought alongside British forces during the Malaysian Emergency. In fact, she absolutely didn't believe me until she saw the memorial in Sydney. Evidently, the kids in Malaysia are taught that Australia is an unfriendly nation, she was quite upset over it. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 02:39:38 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Public Apology >Well to everyone on the list I do owe an apology. I have read >my email about some of the History to do with wars that >Australia was involved in. I have to apologise for the patriotic >remarks about Australia as I have in the past flamed a few >people when they posted remarks to how they thought their >country was the best thing since sliced bread. >Ballistix Huh? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:17:18 +0200 From: Antenna Subject: Question on Links Hi Guys Where have Mitch Bergs anh Chris Callahans pages gonne... Are they just down or are they down forever ? If they are down forever, I would like that someone get to host their pages. I'm just one of those hosting volounters =) Antti Henttu aka Antenna, Anthenna - -- - ------------------------------------------ There are three types of people Those who use math, and those who don't... - ------------------------------------------ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:45:32 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Different stories At 02:38 AM 7/2/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > > One thing I will mention, I had a Malaysian girlfriend years ago and she >got very upset when I mentioned that Australians fought alongside British >forces during the Malaysian Emergency. In fact, she absolutely didn't >believe me until she saw the memorial in Sydney. Evidently, the kids in >Malaysia are taught that Australia is an unfriendly nation, she was quite >upset over it. That's "Malayan Emergency" BTW--"Malaysia" didn't yet exist at the time. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 13:51:43 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. At 05:03 PM 7/1/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: >> >>However, light AFV's in a mechanized division would be APC's or CFV's--not >>light tanks. >>Scott Orr > > This is getting silly, but: > > 30 x Stingray Light Tank (105mm) > 30 x M3 Devers CFV (25mm + TOW) > 24 x M8 Buford AGS (105mm)* > Yes, you already posted this. ? > The Stingrays are already being buillt and readyilly available so I >added them and just 24 M8's as battlefield replacements. APC's and IFV's are >a seperate category. Enough already! You said "AFV's", which includes both (and since the M3 is practically identical to the M2--so much so that it's often referred to as an "M2", I figured you were lumping them all together). My point was that a U.S. mech division would not have light tanks in its TO&E--period. It would have the M3's in cavalry and scout units, but no light tanks. Recently, light tanks have been used only in airborne units, and I don't think the M8 was planned for anything other than light infantry divisions. The Stingray, AFAIK, isn't even in U.S. service. It's certainly possible that the 5th could have received some light tanks, or acquired them somehow, but you need a story to explain how that happened--and it would be very improbably for the division to end up with more light tanks than MBT's. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:09:08 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr To: Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 3:51 AM Subject: Re: Kalisz, almost there. > My point was that a U.S. mech division would not have light tanks in its > TO&E--period. It would have the M3's in cavalry and scout units, but no > light tanks. Recently, light tanks have been used only in airborne units, > and I don't think the M8 was planned for anything other than light infantry > divisions. The Stingray, AFAIK, isn't even in U.S. service. > > It's certainly possible that the 5th could have received some light tanks, > or acquired them somehow, but you need a story to explain how that > happened--and it would be very improbably for the division to end up with > more light tanks than MBT's. > > Scott Orr Fairly sure some of the published works refer to the Stingray as being for export customers then hijacked by the US Army as replacements. GDW sure liked light tanks: LAV-75 MPGS-90 Stingray M-8 I always liked the funky US Army Vehicle Guide 1st edition with all the different light tanks and air defence vehicles. Not realistic, but good fun. Then there is the fun of having M1s with 105mm rounds alongside in units with M1A1 with 120mm rounds.... Peter G *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #149 *************************************