twilight2000-digest Friday, June 30 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 148 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Harpoon RE: EPW's RE: EPW's RE: EPW's RE: EPW's RE: silenced revolvers A World War 2 interlude World war 2 again RE: EPW's Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: World war 2 again RE: EPW's Kalisz, almost there. Re: World war 2 again RE: EPW's RE: A World War 2 interlude Re: A World War 2 interlude Re: EPW's Re: A World War 2 interlude ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:08:46 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Harpoon >From: OrrinLadd@aol.com > >hello, > >this movie stuff is too much for me, so I thought I'd throw in a question >for >you all. I was wondering if any of you out there had the Harpoon computer >game. I am talking about the 1989(?) 1.1 version featuring battles in the >North Atlantic. Does anyone know how many Battlesets were made? I have the "classic" Windows 3.X edition on CD. It covers: GIUK (Greenland-Iceland-UK) Gap North Atlantic Convoys the Mediteranean (sp) Indian Ocean plus two extra battlesets for each region. My two favorite battles were Iraq vs Iran (primarily an air battle) and Greece vs Turkey (also mainly an air battle). A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:13:24 PDT From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: RE: EPW's >From: Timothy P Moerke (Tim Moerke) > >I thought "The Untouchables" was rather good myself. 'Course, it helped >that De Niro and Connery were in it too. There, that's all I'm going to >say about movies. :) Yeah, liked that movie too. > >But I do have a T2K-related question also. In an RPG book I own (Deluxe >Revised Recon), it has an illustration of a revolver with a silencer >attached to it. Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought those type of >guns could not be silenced. Can it be done, or is it just a mistake on >Siembieda and co.'s part? IIRC, there was a Russian revolver (Nagent (sp)?) with special seals that allowed it to be fired silenced. By my understanding, it wasn't a cheap or easy gun to manufacture. A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:18:33 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: EPW's At 04:29 PM 6/29/00 +0200, Bjorn Nilsson wrote: >Yeah i must also say I was quite disapointed with it. The first 40 minutes >are very well done both essentially pointless from a story point of view >and the rest of the film is just a typical US "we are the greatest" >melodrama ment to further hype D-day as the deciding batle in defeating >Germany (which it certanly wasn't) and to generaly show off the americans >as the great heroes of the war. Now i don't want to be overly harsh, >america did very admirable service as the worlds armory and also fought a >very tough and complex war to defeat Japan more or less on her own but >when it comes to defeating the axis in Europe everything except the Red >Steamroller is basicly a sideshow IMHO. > If you thought the movie was about D-Day, you completely missed the point. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:20:26 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: EPW's At 10:17 AM 6/29/00 -0500, Walter Rebsch wrote: > >Yes, you are correct. He is a REMF, that got switched to a front line unit >as a casulty replacement. I guess they did what they had to do, given the >situation. > No, they attached him to the unit because they needed an interpreter. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:20:44 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: EPW's > From: Scott David Orr > > At 10:17 AM 6/29/00 -0500, Walter Rebsch wrote: > > > >Yes, you are correct. He is a REMF, that got switched to a > front line unit > >as a casulty replacement. I guess they did what they had to do, > given the > >situation. > > > No, they attached him to the unit because they needed an interpreter. > > Scott Orr > Ok, Ok. Picky! Techinically he was probably 'attached', not 'switched'. But thats what I meant anyway. I thought the reason they needed an interpreter was because their's died on the beach (IIRC - If I Recall Correctly), so getting another one would make him a casulty replacement right? Or maybe I just imagined the line where he said he had to get 'another' interpreter. Who knows, it's an unimportant detail that's beside the point I was trying to make ... They should've gotten an interpreter that wasn't a REMF. But they didn't (or couldn't) and they paid the price for it. So in a pathetic attempt to tie this back to T2K: the lesson is don't include people in your party with a coolness of 10! He'll get your other characters killed. Leave those REMF's where they belong ... places where bullets aren't flying. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:08:17 AKDT From: "Daniel G" Subject: RE: silenced revolvers During WWII, some OSS-style units used a 38/357 (i forget which) revolver with an integral silencer. To solve the problem of gases leaking from around the cylinder, the barrel-cylinder gap was adjustable. On a similar note, does anyone have any info on the silencer for the M4. I've read that it uses a lock similar to the HK UMP45, so you don't have to screw it onto the barrel. - -Daniel >From: Timothy P Moerke (Tim Moerke) >Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >Subject: RE: EPW's >Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 08:21:56 -0500 (CDT) > >I thought "The Untouchables" was rather good myself. 'Course, it helped >that De Niro and Connery were in it too. There, that's all I'm going to >say about movies. :) > >But I do have a T2K-related question also. In an RPG book I own (Deluxe >Revised Recon), it has an illustration of a revolver with a silencer >attached to it. Now correct me if I am wrong, but I thought those type of >guns could not be silenced. Can it be done, or is it just a mistake on >Siembieda and co.'s part? > >T.M. >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:55:54 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: A World War 2 interlude >>Now i don't want to be overly harsh, >> america did very admirable service as the worlds armory and also fought a >> very tough and complex war to defeat Japan more or less on her own but >> when it comes to defeating the axis in Europe everything except the Red >> Steamroller is basicly a sideshow IMHO. >> >> /Bjorn A very goof, if very sad, book on the Eastern Front is "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer, a Franco/German who was drafted and ended up in the Grosseduetscheland Division. If you're after heroic, blood and glory stuff you mightn't like it but for realism and a sense of being there I can't beat it. It is ISNB 0-304-325240-3 and shows how terribly young and uninformed soldiers were in WW2. The poor guy is constantly under the misapprehension that France is coming to help the German in Russia. It has an interesting point about the *Waffen* SS. The line infantry saw them as little more than elite soldiers and had little idea of their other activities. Allied economic blockade did do a lot to damage the German effort in the East, in '43 Germany ran out of Wolfram and all Tungsten supplies were diverted to machine tooling and away from AP Sabot ammunition production. That is just one example, in fact at the end of the war Germany had only one ball bearing manufacturing plant left. >I fully agree that the US is somewhat 'full of itself', especially in >Hollywood films. Like the recent submarine movie showing that the US >captured the german code machine, when it was really the British. Typical >pandering to the US public. The terrible thing about that was that the US had so many of it's own triumphs, it was pointless to misrepresent an allies particular moment of glory. >I think it's also interesting that even though I've taken history courses in >both High School and College, the Red Army's accomplishments in WWII are >never mentioned. All I remember is that (supposedly) the US 'let' the >Russians take Berlin. There was hardly a single mention of how the Russians >went from the brink of disaster, all the way to Berlin. They only say that >the Russian winter and American arms support saved Russia. But maybe I have >a poor memory on the subject. > >Although I'm pretty sure that D-Day caused the recall of a LOT of troops >from the eastern front, which would ease things up significantly for the >Russians. From what I heard, the atlantic wall was used as a R&R assignment >between trips to the eastern front. > >Anyway, I'm curious what schools teach people in other countries... > >Walter In Australia, what little history we did on WW2 (or any war, our teaching ethos is militantly pacifistic) was confined to Australians and their part in it. (This may have changed in the 18+ years since I left school!) I know General MacArthur got a particularly bad rap in our histories, but the US was portrayed in a positive light. Britain was viewed in a strange fashion, sort of like the 'fighting the next war with the last wars methods' cliche that doesn't really take into account the position the British were in. The Germans were viewed far more positively than the Japanese. Any lessons on the Pacific Theatre always mentioned Bataan, Changie and the other death camps. Japanese atrocities were mentioned more than any other states (Ours were never even considered!) Our methods and motives were never questioned, no comment was made about incendiary raids on civilian centres of enemy states, the pro's and con's of the atomic strikes, the treatment of Poland after the war. This is Victor Mentality I suppose but not really objective in my opinion. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:58:55 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: World war 2 again >One more thing. The Marshall(sp) Plan....ever wonder why the US pumped so >much money into former enemies? IMO the Versailles Treaty was a gross >misjustice. In effect the Allies left Germany (and Austria), in a horrible >position, and in doing so, bear, *at least*, some of the burden for the >rise of the National Socialist movement. They had created an atmosphere >where such a voice would not only be heard, but heeded. >Ray I agree with Ray but I think it goes back even further than that. Germanies surrender conditions for France were humiliating at the end of the Franco/Prussian war in the 1800's, and on it goes back into the mist's of time. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 19:33:45 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: EPW's At 05:20 PM 6/29/00 -0500, Walter Rebsch wrote: >> From: Scott David Orr >> >I thought the reason they needed an interpreter was because their's died on >the beach (IIRC - If I Recall Correctly), so getting another one would make >him a casulty replacement right? Or maybe I just imagined the line where he >said he had to get 'another' interpreter. Who knows, it's an unimportant >detail that's beside the point I was trying to make ... > Yes, I think that's right--all the people they had who spook French or German (or maybe just French) had gotten killed. >They should've gotten an interpreter that wasn't a REMF. But they didn't >(or couldn't) and they paid the price for it. > >So in a pathetic attempt to tie this back to T2K: the lesson is don't >include people in your party with a coolness of 10! He'll get your other >characters killed. Leave those REMF's where they belong ... places where >bullets aren't flying. > Well in all fairness, how do you know before someone sees combat? Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 01:29:53 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude At 02:55 PM 6/30/00 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > I know General MacArthur got a particularly bad rap in our histories, >but the US was portrayed in a positive light. Britain was viewed in a >strange fashion, sort of like the 'fighting the next war with the last wars >methods' cliche that doesn't really take into account the position the >British were in. I can't imagine the British being portrayed in a good light--at the time they were seen as abandoning Australia and even robbing it of its ability to defend itself (by keeping its troups in North Africa and Malaya). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 15:54:21 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude >I can't imagine the British being portrayed in a good light--at the time >they were seen as abandoning Australia and even robbing it of its ability >to defend itself (by keeping its troups in North Africa and Malaya). > >Scott Orr You have to remember the close ties we had with Britain at the time, we felt that they were truely for the chop. Nobody had ever really had bombs on cities before and the propaganda machines went into overdrive, it was as if they were bombing *us*. This is the period that most official history dwells on, not the debacle of Singapore or Churchill's 'Brisbane Line'. Some of this feeling has stayed with us up to the present era. Also, troops in Malaya were seen as the logical place for a defensive system, the 'Asian Fortresses'. In WW2 Australian troops were permitted to operate under Australian officers and Australian military law, a big thing for Aussies, so the disenchantment of WW1 was not as prevalent. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:52:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Wiberg Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude > East, in '43 Germany ran out of Wolfram and all Tungsten supplies were > diverted to machine tooling and away from AP Sabot ammunition production. > That is just one example, in fact at the end of the war Germany had only one > ball bearing manufacturing plant left. > What's interesting is that DeBeers, out of England, continued to trade industrial diamonds with Germany throughout the war from what I understand, and the mnajor banks never stopped conducting business either, no matter what side of the line they were on. I suppose the show must go on, no matter what the issue. Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Wiberg Subject: Re: World war 2 again > I agree with Ray but I think it goes back even further than that. > Germanies surrender conditions for France were humiliating at the end of the > Franco/Prussian war in the 1800's, and on it goes back into the mist's of > time. > Jim > Too true. Check out an old map of the Holy Roman Empire (I'm sure you have). Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:10:28 +0200 (MET DST) From: Bjorn Nilsson Subject: RE: EPW's On Thu, 29 Jun 2000, Scott David Orr wrote: > At 04:29 PM 6/29/00 +0200, Bjorn Nilsson wrote: > > >Yeah i must also say I was quite disapointed with it. The first 40 minutes > >are very well done both essentially pointless from a story point of view > >and the rest of the film is just a typical US "we are the greatest" > >melodrama ment to further hype D-day as the deciding batle in defeating > >Germany (which it certanly wasn't) and to generaly show off the americans > >as the great heroes of the war. Now i don't want to be overly harsh, > >america did very admirable service as the worlds armory and also fought a > >very tough and complex war to defeat Japan more or less on her own but > >when it comes to defeating the axis in Europe everything except the Red > >Steamroller is basicly a sideshow IMHO. > > > If you thought the movie was about D-Day, you completely missed the point. > No off course it wasn't, even if i think the admitedly technicaly briliant D-day scenes is probably the main reason it got so much attention. (The other big reason is probably the names of the people involved.) But quite frankly if there WAS a point i certanly didn't see it, to me the whole film was a pretty mediocre run-of-the-mill war movie. /Bjorn *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:07:19 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Kalisz, almost there. Well guys, here we are at Wloclawek. We should be Lodz in a couple of days, I heard that the cav have scouted as far as Krosniewice. This should be a push over, I wish we'd stayed with Panzergruppe Oberdorf, we'd get to see some action there! This is what we're packing, no way Ivan can stand against all this! US 5th Infantry Division (Mechanised) 1st Brigade 2-11th Infantry Battalion 3-11th Infantry Battalion 3-143th Infantry Battalion 1-40th Armored Battalion 3-70th Armored Battalion 3-19th Field Artillery Battalion 2nd Brigade 3-10th Infantry Battalion 3-77th Armored Battalion 4-12th Cavalry Battalion 7th Engineer Battalion 2-21th Field Artillery Battalion 256th Mechanised Brigade (Louisiana National Guard) {Note: Most of the Battalions apart from the 11th Inf are in fact only companies, the 11th is a smallish battalion} Equipment: 9 x M1 MBT (105mm) 21 x M1A1 MBT (120mm) 12 x M1A2 MBT (120mm) 30 x Stingray Light Tank (105mm) 30 x M3 Devers CFV (25mm + TOW) 24 x M8 Buford AGS (105mm)* 84 x M113A3 APC (12.7mm) 42 x M2 Bradley IFV (25mm + TOW) 46 x Horses 32 x M1083 Standard Cargo Trucks (5 ton) 58 x M939A2 Truck (5 Ton) 88 x M1081 Standard Cargo LVAD Truck (2.5 ton) 71 x M1038 cargo/troop carrier with winch 2 x M1036 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, with winch 3 x M1046 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, with winch 7 x M1026 armament carrier, basic armor, with winch 5 x M1044 armament carrier, supplemental armor, with winch 5 x M996 mini-ambulance, 2-litter, basic armor 16 x M997A2 maxi-ambulance, 4-litter, basic armor 6 x M1035 soft-top ambulance, 2-litter 7 x M1042 S-250 shelter carrier, with winch 4 x M1069 tractor for M119 105-mm light gun 40 x Medium Stills 42 x M224 Mortars (60mm) 28 x M252 Mortars (81mm) 14 x M120 Mortars (120mm) 60 x M102 Lightweight Towed Howitzer (105mm) 24 x M198 towed howitzers (155mm) 16 x M109A6 Paladin Self Propelled Howitzer 10 x M270 MLRS (227mm) 16 x M6 Linebacker ADA (25mm + Stinger) 3000 troops. 150 x M60 MMGs 50 X M220 TOW Launchers 50 x M3 MAAWS (Carl Gustav) 50 x MK-19 Grenade Launchers. (This is all extrapolated from the 'Large Unit' table on the encounters chart using the listing for the 5th Inf Div given in the US Army Vehicle Guide as a base. I personally think that the assets are far too numerous, if you want a different extrapolation, divide everything except the M60's, M220's, M3's and MK-19's by five rounding down. This is basing it on troop numbers and not tank numbers. *I can't see the US cancelling the M8 in 1997 anymore!) Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:04:34 PDT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: Re: World war 2 again > > I agree with Ray but I think it goes back even further than that. > > Germanies surrender conditions for France were humiliating at the end of >the > > Franco/Prussian war in the 1800's, and on it goes back into the mist's >of > > time. > > Jim > > > > >Too true. Check out an old map of the Holy Roman Empire (I'm sure you >have). > >Ray Exactly. I remember learning in high school (oh, so long ago... ;) both in and out of class that the many wars of the 18th and 19th Century combined with the Treaty of Versailles and the end of WWI to create a very hostile environment between the French and German peoples. Oh, and don't forget how, after they let the Germans keep that mineral, coal, and ore-rich valley (I think it's the Rhone, or something like that), and only requiring that it be kept free of German military forces, the French then invaded and occupied the territory to shore up their sagging economy. Well, Hitler got the French back for that. He even forced the French to surrender to him in the same railcar that was used to sign the Treaty of Versailles, just to ram the irony down their throats until they choked on it. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:43:27 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: EPW's > From: Scott David Orr > > Well in all fairness, how do you know before someone sees combat? > > Scott Orr > Yeah, you could never be certain ... but a lot of times it becomes pretty obvious if the training you undergo is tough and realistic. I don't know how many on this list were in a unit that actually attempted to prepare you for combat, but tough training CAN be effective. I remember that there was a sign over one of the PT (Physical Training) pits in Airborne School that said, "Exhaustion can make a coward of any man". I think I got that right (maybe I'm a word or so off, but it's really close). Most people start to harden to their environment when pushed close to their limits. The rate of hardening of course depends on the person, but most people start to adjust. Some people just aren't like that. The harder you push, the softer they get. The US Army used to be able to even get most of those guys to adjust, but those somewhat sadistic methods aren't allowed anymore (at least not openly). The US Army changed a lot around 1984 from what I understand. Grenada really changed things. I remember the most psychotic, kill everything, eat their own guts guys were a small group of Navy SEALS that went through Airborne School in my company. I have NO DOUBT that those guys would have bayonett charged a machine gun emplacement and ripped the enemies hearts out with their barehands if ordered to do so. But thats on the opposite end of the spectrum from what we're talking about. I just think it is possible to weed out the vast majority of people that can't handle it, before you get to combat. But your right, you don't KNOW before the bullets start flying. By the way, for anyone who wants to see a well researched and decently made movie about Grenada, 'Heartbreak Ridge' is pretty good. Not perfect by any stretch, but pretty good. Even though a some of the acting is rather corny, and it's not historically perfect, the movie contains a lot more truths in it than fictions. It captures a lot of the right feel and attitude of the time and place. It's also the first movie I've ever seen that accurately depicts a short little airborne training op. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:43:44 -0500 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: A World War 2 interlude > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > > In Australia, what little history we did on WW2 (or any war, our > teaching ethos is militantly pacifistic) was confined to Australians and > their part in it. (This may have changed in the 18+ years since I left > school!) > I know General MacArthur got a particularly bad rap in our histories, > but the US was portrayed in a positive light. Britain was viewed in a > strange fashion, sort of like the 'fighting the next war with the > last wars > methods' cliche that doesn't really take into account the position the > British were in. > The Germans were viewed far more positively than the Japanese. Any > lessons on the Pacific Theatre always mentioned Bataan, Changie and the > other death camps. Japanese atrocities were mentioned more than any other > states (Ours were never even considered!) > Our methods and motives were never questioned, no comment was > made about > incendiary raids on civilian centres of enemy states, the pro's > and con's of > the atomic strikes, the treatment of Poland after the war. This is Victor > Mentality I suppose but not really objective in my opinion. > Thanks. That's the kind of info I was interested in. Knowing what children are taught in school while growing up is a big window into understanding the general viewpoints of people from that nation. Of course, the more highly educated a person is, the closer they will (probably) get to the average point of view of all highly educated persons around the world (regardless of country of origin). But even among professional historians, opinions differ, so there will probably never be complete convergence of opinion (especially among controversial topics). Is there anyone else that has been educated outside the US and will share what they were taught (or what they can remember of it)? It should help role-playing people from those countries if we had a clue what they were taught while young. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:48:08 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude Ok I also live in Australia and the history as described by Jim is pretty much the standard. Things celebrated or that do come to the fore are these Boer War - South Africa Charge of the Light Brigade (Light Horse Regiment in Turkey I think) Anzac Cove - The disaster given to the Australians as the British were tactically useless. This is an Australian holiday and is similar I believe to the US remembrance or military day (or something like that). For those who want a reminder it is known as the most successful military withdraw from a position to this date. Every solider on Anzac Cove was withdrawn without a single casualty and without the Turkish forces ever knowing until morning came and they found the Australian trenches empty. Kokoda Trail - Fighting Withdrawal through Papua New Guinea along the area know now as the Kokoda Trail. Incidentally the commander of this force was court martialled and discharged dishonourably. Considering this is now considered one of Australia's greatest military victories against the Japanese Imperial Army. 10,000 crack Japanese troops against one under trained and poorly equipped unit (39th Battalion) Later the battalion was reinforced by veterans from Africa. This is an extract from a book I have on the Kokoda Trail and the address given to the surviving soldiers by Gen Blamey of the Australian High Command. 'Blamey got them on edge almost at once by saying that they had been beaten by inferior troops in inferior numbers. Then he made his famous remark to the effect that 'the rabbit that ran away was the rabbit that got shot'. Vietnam - Not a great deal is taught about Vietnam and Australia's involvement in it. Being in the military as I was you get given further exposure to some operations. For those interested you may wish to look at the following battles. Battle for Long Tan, a company of 6 RAR ambushed by a battalion plus of NVA in a rubber plantation. Battle of Coral Balmoral - Battle for an artillery firebase, Involving 102nd Field Battery, 161 Field Battery (NZ), elements of 1 RAR and 3 RAR. Of special note is that in the whole of Vietnam, Australia is the only country to have a war memorial erected for us by the Vietnam Government. It is erected at the sight of Long Tan. Also as you can see the ANZAC tradition from WW I & WW II is continued in Vietnam. For any who are interested in the statistics of Vietnam casualty wise here they are Army 317 KIA 25 Killed Accidentally 71 WIA, later Died 1 MIA 64 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths Navy 6 KIA 2 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths Airforce 4 KIA 2 MIA 8 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths East Timor - Most recent display of Australian military training. We have been involved in other peace making missions (yes we conduct peace making missions before we consider them peace keeping missions). Such as Rwanda, Cambodia, Bouganville and the like. As for the English view of the Australian forces maybe I can shed some light. It has been quoted that the Australian forces were undisciplined rabble by the British Commanders. So there you have it, hope it gives you some insight to the Australian soldier. We have a high regard for ourselves and it is reflected in the demeanour of the soldiers when it counts. Yeah I know it's blowing our own trumpet as they say, and I know we're a bunch of drunken yobbos when we are out on the town. But all I say to those people who wish to flame me about it is 'Duty First' it's the RAR motto live by it. Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:55:32 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: EPW's > I just think it is possible to weed out the vast majority of people that > can't handle it, before you get to combat. But your right, you don't KNOW > before the bullets start flying. Well to put my 2 cents in, I have to agree with the original comment. It doesn't matter how hard the training is in reality. Ultimately until your on the two way range you never know how people will react. The toughest guy that everyone thinks will win a medal as he's a hard nut, will more than likely be the one turning to jelly when you need him most. The one you're least likely to think would support you is usually the one that storms the MG nest bayoneting every one inside and tearing their guts out. The main idea behind training now days is to have you overcome that natural safety catch that you have in built not to kill another person. It is also the reason that there is a higher % of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome after modern wars and conflicts than there was in WW I & II. Just some stats for you on this. It is estimated that in WW I only 5% of shots fired were actually aimed to hit the mark. Compared to 75% of those fired in Vietnam. These are from an Australian military magazine by the way. Big difference hey ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:22:34 -0500 From: "Kevin O'Dell" Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude No problem here, I believe patriotism is a good thing. Thanks, Kevin - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ballistix" To: Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 12:48 AM Subject: Re: A World War 2 interlude > Ok I also live in Australia and the history as described by Jim > is pretty much the standard. Things celebrated or that do come > to the fore are these > > Boer War - South Africa > > Charge of the Light Brigade (Light Horse Regiment in Turkey I think) > > Anzac Cove - The disaster given to the Australians as the British > were tactically useless. This is an Australian holiday and is similar > I believe to the US remembrance or military day (or something like > that). For those who want a reminder it is known as the most successful > military withdraw from a position to this date. Every solider on Anzac > Cove was withdrawn without a single casualty and without the Turkish > forces ever knowing until morning came and they found the Australian > trenches empty. > > Kokoda Trail - Fighting Withdrawal through Papua New Guinea along > the area know now as the Kokoda Trail. Incidentally the commander > of this force was court martialled and discharged dishonourably. > Considering this is now considered one of Australia's greatest military > victories against the Japanese Imperial Army. 10,000 crack Japanese > troops against one under trained and poorly equipped unit (39th > Battalion) > Later the battalion was reinforced by veterans from Africa. > > This is an extract from a book I have on the Kokoda Trail and the > address > given to the surviving soldiers by Gen Blamey of the Australian High > Command. > > 'Blamey got them on edge almost at once by saying that they had been > beaten > by inferior troops in inferior numbers. Then he made his famous remark > to the > effect that 'the rabbit that ran away was the rabbit that got shot'. > > Vietnam - Not a great deal is taught about Vietnam and Australia's > involvement in it. Being in the military as I was you get given further > exposure to some operations. For those interested you may wish > to look at the following battles. Battle for Long Tan, a company of > 6 RAR ambushed by a battalion plus of NVA in a rubber plantation. > Battle of Coral Balmoral - Battle for an artillery firebase, Involving > 102nd Field Battery, 161 Field Battery (NZ), elements of 1 RAR > and 3 RAR. Of special note is that in the whole of Vietnam, Australia > is the only country to have a war memorial erected for us by the Vietnam > Government. It is erected at the sight of Long Tan. Also as you can see > the ANZAC tradition from WW I & WW II is continued in Vietnam. > > For any who are interested in the statistics of Vietnam casualty wise here > they are > > Army > 317 KIA > 25 Killed Accidentally > 71 WIA, later Died > 1 MIA > 64 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths > Navy > 6 KIA > 2 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths > Airforce > 4 KIA > 2 MIA > 8 Non-Battle Casualty Deaths > > East Timor - Most recent display of Australian military training. We have > been > involved in other peace making missions (yes we conduct peace making > missions before we consider them peace keeping missions). Such as > Rwanda, Cambodia, Bouganville and the like. > > As for the English view of the Australian forces maybe I can shed some > light. > It has been quoted that the Australian forces were undisciplined rabble by > the > British Commanders. > > So there you have it, hope it gives you some insight to the Australian > soldier. > We have a high regard for ourselves and it is reflected in the demeanour of > the soldiers when it counts. Yeah I know it's blowing our own trumpet as > they > say, and I know we're a bunch of drunken yobbos when we are out on the > town. But all I say to those people who wish to flame me about it is > > 'Duty First' it's the RAR motto live by it. > > Ballistix > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #148 *************************************