twilight2000-digest Friday, March 10 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 131 The following topics are covered in this digest: RE: China vs. Taiwan group makeup, and timelines... Re: Alt Game settings Re: Alt Game settings Re: Alt Game settings Re: Retribution RE: China vs. Taiwan RE: group makeup, and timelines... RE: China v. Taiwan Re: group makeup, and timelines... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 22:54:58 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: China vs. Taiwan At 02:29 PM 3/10/00 +1000, Adam Betteridge wrote: > > >THe URL is >http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ch.html > >Scott wrote >Right now, therefore, I'm not worried about China's military power. But when >China approaches the point of being a "middle income" country (between $4,000 >and $8,000 GDP), which is the point at which the transition to democracy almost >always occurs, THEN I'll start to worry, because at that point China will still >be authoritarian, but with a lot more money and better technology that it has >now (one thing it _won't_ be is the most populous country in the world--India >will have long overtaken it by then). > >Well Scott you better start getting worried, it's at $3,600 per capita GDP so >maybe another 5 years at the most before it hits your zone. > China? Not quite. I just checked the figure for, I think, 1996, and it was $750. Make sure you're looking at GDP based on exchange rates, rather than purchasing-power-parity (PPP). The latter is more accurate for describing standards of living (because food and housing is cheaper in a poor country), but it would actually be a less accurate for describing the country's ability to field a military (because military equipmenet is more expensive in a poor country)--and more importantly the numbers I cited for being middle-income are based on exchanges rates, not PPP. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 21:57:22 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: group makeup, and timelines... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8A12.72D0E380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Orrin lead me to Merc:2000 for some examples of squad and platoon = make-ups for some of militaries. It's been help, and has shown me that = the one I was working up isn't overly strong. But a few things seemed = off from some of the other sources I've had: (these are for US) Counting the squad leader, it shows 11 men in a dismounted squad = (thirteen if including the driver and gunner in a mech. squad.) It also = shows two SAWs, and an ATGM team (Dragon.) Now, 11 isn't very high, but = I've seen numbers ranging from 8 to 10, usually. One of the most recent = books I've read, I think the driver and gunner counted, so if they don't = dismount, you'd have only 8 members in the dismounted squad. I've = always seen the squad leader as counting as part of the squad, for an = even number. Also, it has always been my understanding that there was only one SAW = per squad, and anything bigger than a LAW (or single-fire AT weapon) was = an attached element to the platoon. Bigger ATGMs are not part of the = normal squad load out. Can anyone shed some light on this? I've also been thinking of the new timelines. I've been thinking of = having something before a big apocalyptic war. Basically, like how = things are right now, then maybe looking ahead a few years. Merc gives = some good world situations. Some of it seems right on the money, or = very possible to being as things are. China is a bit off (it's fallen = into it's old history of being divided by warlords, which I had stated = in an earlier posting being what I think would be the most likely way = there would be serious Chinese aggression...) But otherwise, Merc's = world is decently believable. Now, remember, we could have civilization slide into the state that it = is in T2K, without using nukes. Very likely, with the various ethnic = conflicts, that chemical and biological weapons might be used. I don't = want to start any debates on bioweapons. But those are a possibility. = There's also the possibility of having a more limited nuke exchange, = either with break-away republics that might deploy them, fanatical = groups, or some small war between Pakistan and India. Combine those = with some other events, and things can fall apart quickly. Of course, for a highly developed (technologically) culture, something = severely affecting electronics and/or the economy would be the best = precipitator to civil disorder. One thing, that fits right now, is that = we are in the early part of an eleven year period of severe solar flare = activity. These cause problems with satellites, and electronics in = general. Perhaps there could be a particularly bad flare, that has the = effects (to electronics) of some nukes. One idea that I had was a small = nova. I did a little research some time back, and occasionally, a star = will blow-away a piece of itself, into space. This is a nova (a = super-nova, which we're more familiar with, is when the whole star goes = up...) Anyhow, I wondered what would happen if that chunk of star mass = passed by the earth. Not close enough to destroy us, or burn away the = entire atmosphere, but enough to fry electronics, cause atmospheric = problems (severe storms,) and maybe fry a little of the earth, the side = facing the chunk as it flies by. Just an idea... Someone mentioned Y2K. But that has already passed, and if you want to = keep things current with your players, how about a virus? Computer = virus, of course. One that might be particularly nasty, crafty, = virulent (as in easy at getting itself passed on.) Perhaps it cycles up = the processors until they burn themselves out... Easy to concoct for = the game, and believable. This won;t destroy civilization, but it will = put us back into the nineteenth century (those countries that aren't = still in the nineteenth century...) In larger cities, it could be a = very bad thing. Then you, as the GM, can just shape out how the world = has settled after all the lights and communications have gone out. Hope this gets the ideas flowing freely. Cor - ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8A12.72D0E380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
Orrin lead me to Merc:2000 for some examples of = squad and=20 platoon make-ups for some of militaries.  It's been help, and has = shown me=20 that the one I was working up isn't overly strong.  But a few = things seemed=20 off from some of the other sources I've had:  (these are for=20 US)
 
Counting the squad leader, it shows 11 men = in a =20 dismounted squad (thirteen if including the driver and gunner in a mech. = squad.)  It also shows two SAWs, and an ATGM team (Dragon.)  = Now, 11=20 isn't very high, but I've seen numbers ranging from 8 to 10, = usually.  One=20 of the most recent books I've read, I think the driver and gunner = counted, so if=20 they don't dismount, you'd have only 8 members in the dismounted = squad. =20 I've always seen the squad leader as counting as part of the squad, for = an even=20 number.
 
Also, it has always been my understanding that = there was=20 only one SAW per squad, and anything bigger than a LAW (or single-fire = AT=20 weapon) was an attached element to the platoon.  Bigger ATGMs are = not part=20 of the normal squad load out.  Can anyone shed some light on=20 this?
 
I've also been thinking of the new = timelines.  I've=20 been thinking of having something before a big apocalyptic war.  = Basically,=20 like how things are right now, then maybe looking ahead a few = years.  Merc=20 gives some good world situations.  Some of it seems right on the = money, or=20 very possible to being as things are.  China is a bit off (it's = fallen into=20 it's old history of being divided by warlords, which I had stated in an = earlier=20 posting being what I think would be the most likely way there would be = serious=20 Chinese aggression...)  But otherwise, Merc's world is decently=20 believable.
 
Now, remember, we could have civilization slide = into the=20 state that it is in T2K, without using nukes.  Very likely, with = the=20 various ethnic conflicts, that chemical and biological weapons might be=20 used.  I don't want to start any debates on bioweapons.  But = those are=20 a possibility.  There's also the possibility of having a more = limited nuke=20 exchange, either with break-away republics that might deploy them, = fanatical=20 groups, or some small war between Pakistan and India.  Combine = those with=20 some other events, and things can fall apart quickly.
 
Of course, for a highly developed = (technologically)=20 culture, something severely affecting electronics and/or the economy = would be=20 the best precipitator to civil disorder.  One thing, that fits = right now,=20 is that we are in the early part of an eleven year period of severe = solar flare=20 activity.  These cause problems with satellites, and electronics in = general.  Perhaps there could be a particularly bad flare, that has = the=20 effects (to electronics) of some nukes.  One idea that I had was a = small=20 nova.  I did a little research some time back, and occasionally, a = star=20 will blow-away a piece of itself, into space.  This is a nova (a=20 super-nova, which we're more familiar with, is when the whole star goes=20 up...)  Anyhow, I wondered what would happen if that chunk of star = mass=20 passed by the earth.  Not close enough to destroy us, or burn away = the=20 entire atmosphere, but enough to fry electronics, cause atmospheric = problems=20 (severe storms,) and maybe fry a little of the earth, the side facing = the chunk=20 as it flies by.  Just an idea...
 
Someone mentioned Y2K.  But that has = already passed,=20 and if you want to keep things current with your players, how about a=20 virus?   Computer virus, of course.  One that might be=20 particularly nasty, crafty, virulent (as in easy at getting itself = passed=20 on.)  Perhaps it cycles up the processors until they burn = themselves=20 out...  Easy to concoct for the game, and believable.   = This=20 won;t destroy civilization, but it will put us back into the nineteenth = century=20 (those countries that aren't still in the nineteenth century...)  = In larger=20 cities, it could be a very bad thing.  Then you, as the GM, can = just shape=20 out how the world has settled after all the lights and communications = have gone=20 out.
 
Hope this gets the ideas flowing = freely.
 
Cor
- ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BF8A12.72D0E380-- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:02:26 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Alt Game settings In a message dated 03/09/2000 4:26:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, abetteridge@gio.com.au writes: << An American-Russian Alliance against the Chinese & North Koreans. China launches attacks into Siberia & Mongolia, at the same time North Korea fires Chem weapons at the South & US bases in Japan. Chinese backed geurillas launch revolutions in the Russian Near East supporting many of the muslim fundamentalists within the region. Russian forces in the far east are caught off guard and the Chinese meet initially with little opposition. China also takes this oppurtunity to launch convetional missile & air attacks against Taiwan in an attempt to destroy the Taiwanese airbases. >> Yo Ad, It's plausible, but how do you account for the fact that the Chinese have their own problems with Muslim fundamentalists? I'm waiting for potential USA-Australia showdown, over DNA testing, improperly releasing war criminals, which beer is better, which version of football is better etc =) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:14:41 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Alt Game settings > > I'm waiting for potential USA-Australia showdown, over DNA testing, > improperly releasing war criminals, which beer is better, which version of > football is better etc =) Don't forget about who's got better locksmiths, or the best designated driver program (gotta love those Foster Beer commercials...) Plus, we've never forgiven Australia for Paul Hogan, or that crazy animal dude that's supposedly the real Crocodile Dundee. "Let's see what happens when we hit the alligator with a stick..." Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 01:12:16 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Alt Game settings In a message dated 03/09/2000 4:26:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, abetteridge@gio.com.au writes: << And, to keep this thread in T2k, I'm currently working on a new history timeline that takes into account the various problems that could cause WWIII. Here's my current list of potential conflicts: >> Ok, in all seriousness How about the Pakistan-India conflict? This one keeps flaring up every so often. The Chinese support the Pakistanis, the Russians support the Indians (or at least they used to). The US supports the Pakistanis (or at least they used to). India is an up and coming power. Both sides have nuclear capability. You could drag in a number of Muslim states as well. orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 00:45:30 -0600 From: Steve Subject: Re: Retribution Erwos wrote: > Just another perspective... > > I'm Jewish (extremely religious for that matter, but don't worry, I won't > force my views upon all of you :-) ), and a lot of my family was killed in > the Holocaust (there's this big black line where my family tree stops > because of it). > -Erwos > I agree with you, All I said is that as time passes it is harder to get the criminals but we should never relent on pursuing them. I am not Jewish, but I share your views and experiences. Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:09:14 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: China vs. Taiwan - -----Original Message----- From: Scott David Orr [mailto:sdorr@ix.netcom.com] At 02:29 PM 3/10/00 +1000, Adam Betteridge wrote: >http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ch.html >Scott wrote: >Right now, therefore, I'm not worried about China's military power. But when >China approaches the point of being a "middle income" country (between $4,000 >and $8,000 GDP), THEN I'll start to worry >(...it _won't_ be is the most populous country in the world...) >Ad wrote >Well Scott you better start getting worried, >it's at $3,600 per capita GDP so >maybe another 5 years at the most before it hits your zone. > Scott wrote: China? Not quite. I just checked the figure for, I think, 1996, and it was $750. Make sure you're looking at GDP based on exchange rates, rather than purchasing-power-parity (PPP). The latter is more accurate for describing standards of living (because food and housing is cheaper in a poor country), but it would actually be a less accurate for describing the country's ability to field a military (because military equipmenet is more expensive in a poor country)--and more importantly the numbers I cited for being middle-income are based on exchanges rates, not PPP. Scott, I would be interested in a short clarification of GNP/GDP/PPP (The only eco I know is estimating pay-out of an engineering project.) As you know I plan to convert "real" world data in game stats for _POCKET_EMPIRES_. Why would Ad's "GDP" of $3k differ from yours of less than $1k? Any help would be appreciated. Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:10:46 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: group makeup, and timelines... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8A78.E702EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Counting the squad leader, it shows 11 men in a dismounted squad (thirteen if including the driver and gunner in a mech. squad.) It also shows two SAWs, and an ATGM team (Dragon.) Now, 11 isn't very high, but I've seen numbers ranging from 8 to 10, usually. One of the most recent books I've read, I think the driver and gunner counted, so if they don't dismount, you'd have only 8 members in the dismounted squad. I've always seen the squad leader as counting as part of the squad, for an even number. A Dragon? That must be old or talking about a national guard unit. Well, maybe not that old, I've seen a dragon missle being shot, but I don't think they use those anymore. Maybe someone else knows if they still use them? They fly really slow for a missle and seem to 'bounce on sparks' (the little corrective thrusters on the sides of the missle) so they have a flight path like a rock being skipped across water. Squad size changed in the US Army for certain units when they adopted the Bradley, because it couldn't hold a regular squad size, or so I heard. So the squad size probably depends on the type of APC they have (if any). Also, it has always been my understanding that there was only one SAW per squad, and anything bigger than a LAW (or single-fire AT weapon) was an attached element to the platoon. Bigger ATGMs are not part of the normal squad load out. Can anyone shed some light on this? I would think that you are correct, but I don't have enough direct knowledge to confirm it. Again, check in a TOE chart for the units you are trying to put together. Brandon Cope posted this link a while back. It seems to have so decent info if you dig for it: http://sun00781.dn.net/man/dod-101/army/unit/platoon.htm Now, remember, we could have civilization slide into the state that it is in T2K, without using nukes. Very likely, with the various ethnic conflicts, that chemical and biological weapons might be used. I don't want to start any debates on bioweapons. But those are a possibility. There's also the possibility of having a more limited nuke exchange, either with break-away republics that might deploy them, fanatical groups, or some small war between Pakistan and India. Combine those with some other events, and things can fall apart quickly. The Soviets had LARGE stockpiles of chemical weapons and supposedly had pretty decent stockpiles of Bio-weapons also. Just have a corrupt general sell whatever you need on the black market to whomever you need to supply with them if they can't make the stuff themselves. It works for Bond movies, why not T2K... Of course, for a highly developed (technologically) culture, something severely affecting electronics and/or the economy would be the best precipitator to civil disorder. One thing, that fits right now, is that we are in the early part of an eleven year period of severe solar flare activity. These cause problems with satellites, and electronics in general. Perhaps there could be a particularly bad flare, that has the effects (to electronics) of some nukes. One idea that I had was a small nova. I did a little research some time back, and occasionally, a star will blow-away a piece of itself, into space. This is a nova (a super-nova, which we're more familiar with, is when the whole star goes up...) Anyhow, I wondered what would happen if that chunk of star mass passed by the earth. Not close enough to destroy us, or burn away the entire atmosphere, but enough to fry electronics, cause atmospheric problems (severe storms,) and maybe fry a little of the earth, the side facing the chunk as it flies by. Just an idea... It doesn't have to be quite as dramatic as the nova thing. A super-massive solar flare could reach out and destroy every satellite in earth orbit. Without any GPS's, spy satellites, or satellite communications the US would suffer badly, giving any rivals out there a chance to pounce while we are down. Someone mentioned Y2K. But that has already passed, and if you want to keep things current with your players, how about a virus? Computer virus, of course. One that might be particularly nasty, crafty, virulent (as in easy at getting itself passed on.) Perhaps it cycles up the processors until they burn themselves out... Easy to concoct for the game, and believable. This won;t destroy civilization, but it will put us back into the nineteenth century (those countries that aren't still in the nineteenth century...) In larger cities, it could be a very bad thing. Then you, as the GM, can just shape out how the world has settled after all the lights and communications have gone out. A virus bad enough to dump the majority of things back into the 19th century is a bit too much to be believable in my opinion. Most computers aren't on a network. How do you infect them? I'm not talking about PC's. I'm talking about the millions of little embedded processers that run virtually everything electronic. If you want to do this, you would need something like a massive EMP hit on the whole planet. Something bad enough to give everyone on the planet about 50 rads in a second or two. Again, the solar flare idea is more believable. If you doubt how massive the pent-up energy is in the sun, realize that astronomers estimate that it takes approximately a million years for the energy from the nuclear reactions in the center of the sun to reach the surface of the sun to be radiated outward into space. Even now they try to predict solar flares so they can change the orbits on the more sensitive satellites so they will be hidden behind the earth when the shockwave in the solar wind hits us. Walter - ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8A78.E702EB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Counting the squad leader, it shows 11 men=20 in a  dismounted squad (thirteen if including the driver and = gunner=20 in a mech. squad.)  It also shows two SAWs, and an ATGM team=20 (Dragon.)  Now, 11 isn't very high, but I've seen numbers ranging = from 8=20 to 10, usually.  One of the most recent books I've read, I think = the=20 driver and gunner counted, so if they don't dismount, you'd have only = 8=20 members in the dismounted squad.  I've always seen the squad = leader as=20 counting as part of the squad, for an even = number.
A=20 Dragon?  That must be old or talking about a national guard = unit. =20 Well, maybe not that old, I've seen a dragon missle being shot, but I = don't=20 think they use those anymore.  Maybe someone else knows if = they still=20 use them?  They fly really slow for a missle and seem to 'bounce on = sparks'=20 (the little corrective thrusters on the sides of the missle) so they = have a=20 flight path like a rock being skipped across water.  Squad size = changed in=20 the US Army for certain units when they adopted the Bradley, because it = couldn't=20 hold a regular squad size, or so I heard.  So the squad size = probably=20 depends on the type of APC they have (if any).
Also, it has always been my understanding that = there was=20 only one SAW per squad, and anything bigger than a LAW (or single-fire = AT=20 weapon) was an attached element to the platoon.  Bigger ATGMs are = not=20 part of the normal squad load out.  Can anyone shed some light on = this?
I=20 would think that you are correct, but I don't have enough direct = knowledge to=20 confirm it.  Again, check in a TOE chart for the units you are = trying to=20 put together.  Brandon Cope posted this link a while back.  It = seems=20 to have so decent info if you dig for it:

http://sun00781.dn.net/man/dod-101/army/unit/platoon.htm

Now, remember, we could have civilization = slide into the=20 state that it is in T2K, without using nukes.  Very likely, with = the=20 various ethnic conflicts, that chemical and biological weapons might = be=20 used.  I don't want to start any debates on bioweapons.  But = those=20 are a possibility.  There's also the possibility of having a more = limited=20 nuke exchange, either with break-away republics that might deploy = them,=20 fanatical groups, or some small war between Pakistan and India.  = Combine=20 those with some other events, and things can fall apart=20 quickly.
The=20 Soviets had LARGE stockpiles of chemical weapons and supposedly had = pretty=20 decent stockpiles of Bio-weapons also.  Just have a corrupt general = sell=20 whatever you need on the black market to whomever you need to supply = with them=20 if they can't make the stuff themselves.  It works for Bond movies, = why not=20 T2K...
Of course, for a highly developed = (technologically)=20 culture, something severely affecting electronics and/or the economy = would be=20 the best precipitator to civil disorder.  One thing, that fits = right now,=20 is that we are in the early part of an eleven year period of severe = solar=20 flare activity.  These cause problems with satellites, and = electronics in=20 general.  Perhaps there could be a particularly bad flare, that = has the=20 effects (to electronics) of some nukes.  One idea that I had was = a small=20 nova.  I did a little research some time back, and occasionally, = a star=20 will blow-away a piece of itself, into space.  This is a nova (a=20 super-nova, which we're more familiar with, is when the whole star = goes=20 up...)  Anyhow, I wondered what would happen if that chunk of = star mass=20 passed by the earth.  Not close enough to destroy us, or burn = away the=20 entire atmosphere, but enough to fry electronics, cause atmospheric = problems=20 (severe storms,) and maybe fry a little of the earth, the side facing = the=20 chunk as it flies by.  Just an idea...
It=20 doesn't have to be quite as dramatic as the nova thing.  A = super-massive=20 solar flare could reach out and destroy every satellite in earth = orbit. =20 Without any GPS's, spy satellites, or satellite communications the US = would=20 suffer badly, giving any rivals out there a chance to pounce while we = are=20 down.
Someone mentioned Y2K.  But that has = already=20 passed, and if you want to keep things current with your players, how = about a=20 virus?   Computer virus, of course.  One that might be=20 particularly nasty, crafty, virulent (as in easy at getting itself = passed=20 on.)  Perhaps it cycles up the processors until they burn = themselves=20 out...  Easy to concoct for the game, and believable.   = This=20 won;t destroy civilization, but it will put us back into the = nineteenth=20 century (those countries that aren't still in the nineteenth = century...) =20 In larger cities, it could be a very bad thing.  Then you, as the = GM, can=20 just shape out how the world has settled after all the lights and=20 communications have gone out. 
=
A virus bad enough to dump the majority of = things back=20 into the 19th century is a bit too much to be believable in my = opinion. =20 Most computers aren't on a network.  How do you infect them?  = I'm not=20 talking about PC's.  I'm talking about the millions of little = embedded=20 processers that run virtually everything electronic.  If you want = to do=20 this, you would need something like a massive EMP hit on the whole = planet. =20 Something bad enough to give everyone on the planet about 50 rads in a = second or=20 two.  Again, the solar flare idea is more=20 believable.
 
If you doubt how massive the pent-up energy = is in the=20 sun, realize that astronomers estimate that it takes approximately a = million=20 years for the energy from the nuclear reactions in the center of the sun = to=20 reach the surface of the sun to be radiated outward into space.  = Even now=20 they try to predict solar flares so they can change the orbits on = the more=20 sensitive satellites so they will be hidden behind the earth when the = shockwave=20 in the solar wind hits us.
 
Walter
- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BF8A78.E702EB20-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 10:10:53 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: China v. Taiwan > >As an interesting side note, members of the DPP are known for > getting into > >fistfights with members of other parties during sessions of the > Taiwanese > >Parliament. Even female members of the DPP will physically > assault their > >collegues. > > > Interesting. > Yeah, I saw a full out brawl one time on the news. About 20 guys in a general melee on their parliament/congress floor. At least you know they feel strongly about something, unlike in the US where they are too busy lining their own pockets to care. They better behave themselves if they go to Minnesota however. My money would be on 'The Gov' vs. any 5 of them... :) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 08:45:17 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: group makeup, and timelines... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF8A6C.F5F5F020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 I think that was for the old series mech squads mounted in M113's (H = series I think as opposed to the J series mounted in Bradleys). It = really depends on the type of the unit, I think. If I remember right, = the Bradley squads are pretty weird, since there are only 20 some odd = troops in the dismount section for the entire platoon(24 plus four = vehicle crews?). I think nine would be about right on paper for a non = mechanized infantry unit, two four man fire teams and a squad leader. = Though many units are understrength due to rotations, leaves, etc. =20 =20 The SAW and M203 are issued on a fire team basis, one each per fire = team. As for the Dragon, if I remember right it was issued as an = organic weapon, not in a seperate heavy weapons squad/platoon, for = mechanized platoons/companies. For regular infantry and airborne/air = assault type platoons though I think the Dragons and M60s/M240's were = grouped together in a heavy weapons squad/platoon like you are thinking. In = Clancy's book Airborne he lists a platoon having the nine man squad I = mentioned above with the platoon having three rifle squads and a heavy = weapons squad with two M240 and two ATGM teams each. Not sure if this = applies to only the 82nd or if the companies in the 101st and the other = light infantry units are organized similarly. Seems pretty reasonable/believable though. =20 I'm not sure what kind of unit you are trying to come up with, but = if it's a nonmechanized unit, you're probably looking at 9 men per squad with two fire teams and a = squad leader. Each fire team has one SAW, one M16/M203, and two M16's. = Three squads in a platoon. Platoon command section has the 2nd Lt, a = platoon Sgt., RTO, possibly a medic and a forward observer. Platoon = also has a weapons squad with two medium machine guns and two ATGM's. = That's to the best of my knowledge, but it may be a bit outdated. =20 Regards, JC - ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BF8A6C.F5F5F020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<Counting the squad leader, it shows 11 = men in=20 a  dismounted squad (thirteen if including the driver and = gunner in a=20 mech. squad.)  It also shows two SAWs, and an ATGM team = (Dragon.) =20 Now, 11 isn't very high, but I've seen numbers ranging from 8 to 10, = usually.  One of the most recent books I've read, I think the = driver=20 and gunner counted, so if they don't dismount, you'd have only 8 = members in=20 the dismounted squad.  I've always seen the squad leader as = counting as=20 part of the squad, for an even number.>
 
I think that was for the old series mech squads mounted in = M113's (H=20 series I think as opposed to the J series mounted in = Bradleys).  It=20 really depends on the type of the unit, I think.  If I remember = right,=20 the Bradley squads are pretty weird, since there are only 20 some = odd troops=20 in the dismount section for the entire platoon(24 plus four vehicle=20 crews?).  I think nine would be about right on paper for a non=20 mechanized infantry  unit, two four man fire teams and a squad=20 leader.  Though many units are understrength due to rotations, = leaves,=20 etc.
 
<Also, it has always been my = understanding that=20 there was only one SAW per squad, and anything bigger than a LAW (or = single-fire AT weapon) was an attached element to the platoon.  = Bigger=20 ATGMs are not part of the normal squad load out.  Can anyone = shed some=20 light on this?> 
The SAW and M203 are issued on a fire team = basis, one=20 each per fire team.  As for the Dragon, if I remember right it = was=20 issued as an organic weapon, not in a seperate heavy weapons = squad/platoon,=20 for mechanized platoons/companies.  For regular infantry and=20 airborne/air assault type platoons though I think the Dragons and=20 M60s/M240's were grouped
together in a heavy weapons = squad/platoon like=20 you are thinking.  In Clancy's book Airborne he lists a platoon = having=20 the nine man squad I mentioned above with the platoon having three = rifle=20 squads and a heavy weapons squad with two M240 and two ATGM teams=20 each.  Not sure if this applies to only the 82nd or if the = companies in=20 the 101st and the other light infantry units
are organized similarly.  Seems pretty = reasonable/believable=20 though.
 
I'm not sure what kind of unit you are trying to come up with, = but if=20 it's a nonmechanized unit,
you're probably looking at 9 men per squad with two fire teams = and a=20 squad leader.  Each fire team has one SAW, one M16/M203, and = two=20 M16's.  Three squads in a platoon.  Platoon command = section has=20 the 2nd Lt, a platoon Sgt., RTO, possibly a medic and a forward=20 observer.  Platoon also has a weapons squad with two medium = machine=20 guns and two ATGM's.  That's to the best of my knowledge, but = it may be=20 a bit outdated.
 
Regards,
JC
 
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