twilight2000-digest Monday, March 6 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 122 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Some more questions Re: Alternate setting (Long) RE: Alternate setting (Long) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) RE: u.s. defense spending [was Game settings (Red Dawn)] RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Alternate setting (Long) Re: Red Dawn Possible? Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) RE: vehicle conversions (rant) Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 17:24:01 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Some more questions In a message dated 03/05/2000 9:51:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, akolb@tekhullogy.com writes: << What weapon would be best for Mexican soldiers? >> >From "Red Star/Lone Star": Mexican manufactured G3s, FNs and FALs, M1954 bolt action rifle, small numbers of Soviet and US small arms. AFV's almost universally French built ERC-90, APC mostly French built VAB. Artillery 105mm howitzer, similar to US M202. There is also a Mendoza HM-3 9mm submachinegun in the Infantry Weapons of the World sourcebook. Also TR sent me some info on the Mexican Army awhile back. You may want to ask him for more info. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:28:13 EST From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Re: Alternate setting (Long) Boy, that was long! Whew! But I love a breath of fresh air. I've been subscribed to this list for almost six months and finally someone wants to talk about the game! If you like the idea, and the players like the idea, then it's worth developing. Sounds like you got most of the background done already. I very much doubt that anyone here can help you, but I know where your coming from. I personally don't run a 'traditional' campaign. I've added weird stuff like horror and sci-fi to the mix just to shake it up. I could suggest a few games that you could refer to if you could find them: Dark Conspiracy: Has all the corporate background you could handle Rifts: Extensive robot resources Shadowrun: Cybernetics galore Cyberpunk: see Shadowrun Alternity/Dark•Matter: This sourcebook covers corporate/government conspiracies Datawere: This is an Alternity accessory that covers AI's, robots, and the net GURPS: They have a sourcebook for everything Well, that's to name a few. If your still in the development stage, I'm designing a website that's specifically for GM's like you. It will be premiering near the end of April, and I will post it on here. I hope I was somewhat of help. - -Billy Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 18:39:32 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: Alternate setting (Long) - -----Original Message----- From: Jesse LaBranche Subject: Alternate setting (Long) I am using the 1st edition rules to run the game and that it is only slightly in the future tech-wise. It's using T2k rules- so the statistical data would be much easier to convert than if I took it to something like the Traveller lists. >(I'm not saying 2 take this somewhere else, but I think you can get some excellent info from a Traveller list.) I haven't managed to find an appropriate vehicle, but I have been looking at something in the neighborhood of a FAV built for 5. The closest thing I am coming up with is a Hummer, any ideas? >(Why not design your own using GDW's FF&S for TNE? If you don't have this book I suggest you buy this one.) Basic Background Corporations had grown in power until many were in effect small nations of their own (Help/suggestions are welcome in all areas of this project). >(I would use the Traveller model for "MEGA-CORPORATIONS" for this part of your world background; one very developed Traveller MegaCorp is "SUSAG".) Industrial sabotage became more and more common until the small attacks became the mainstream and eventually- the Corps went to war. The war began using small strike-teams on manufacturing and supply areas. It was not long until bots came into use. T's are a bot series more along the lines of the movie Bladerunner. >(Androids are a _*LONG*_ stretch if you are going to place the tech level for this timeline as "near" future. Look at the crude robots we have in Y2K; essentially remote controlled slave 'bots. While robots continue to grow in sophistication, you won't get "androids" within the next 300 years.) Bots were delivered and release virtually everywhere in mass numbers. Some of these had been designed as "builders" to actually create armies within occupied territory, others had been given AI programming......everyone realized that they would become a threat to humanity. >(Well if -as HOG- you make AI technology available *FAR* earlier than we can reasonably expect it to, then you probably will *NEED* the GDW AI source-book, for TNE called _VAMPIRE_FLEETS_.) Notes Okay, now I know that some of this is going to come out a bit hokey, but I am shooting for as much realism as I can get, and a much more "detailed" background of events leading up to the war itself. >(If you want "hard" sci-fi, I would run this using the T2.2K/TNE GDW "house" rules.) I was hoping that you guys could give me a LOT of ideas and here are a few of the things I could use some help in... 1. Ideas for "bot" designs, or just how to design them in general. What sorts of stats would be good to use? >(_VAMPIRE_FLEETS_, listed above, has a complete robot design sequence tables based on GDW's FF&S book. There is also an old DGP Traveller supplement called _101_ROBOTS_.) 2. What kind of "special electronics" have you seen/heard of recently or ideas do you have that could be turned into useful stuffs for this game even if given just a bit more tech than we currently have. >(How about the very wicked _GAUSS-GUN_, or the even more exotic _MAN-PORTABLE_FUSSION-GUN_; yes there are T2.2K stats for these two weapons - -and more! Probably the most realistic "near-future" weapon we could field today is the laser designed to blind troops -"T-BOTS" aren't bound by the GC!) Some of the bot design notes that I was thinking that might be important would be something along these lines...1.-12. >(Hey GDW has done all this for you already -I would spend my time designing 'bots rather than developing a whole new system!) This leads to the other two questions- first off, what are some of the thoughts that you guys have for "high tech" equipment? and ideas to help players (who just botched the standard-L ambush) learn to operate as a team and use tactics? >(Well for "high-tech" equipment I would use a TNE "Equipment Guide". For teaching "Hey Diddle-Diddle, Straight Up The Middle!" PCs the kind of tactics it takes to win, you could develop a "Play-Book" for different situations and each PC would know their part; this "book" could be part of their units color and history as well..."In '05 Pvt. Sparky literally lit a fire under a "T-BOT" by...") I figured, no problem, I've got the EQ here- some pretty decent ideas for bots, a little tech to throw in, and a pre-made world and history. Well, when I started working on this stuff I realized that I don't have nearly enough to run this game more than a mission or two at best. >(Take a look at GDW's _VIKING_SOURCEBOOKS_ for TNE.) Also, with their general tactical knowledge/ability and usual methods of (NOT) working together- they'd get incredibly frustrated trying to go anywhere with this. (I say *STOMP'EM*! but with a purpose. That is, have a scenario "out" if they get stepped on by their own foolishness; for e.g. have most of the beaten PC's taken to a prison camp that the "T-BOTS" use to process bio-units into cyborgs; this will also allow you to show them just how tough a "T-BOT" is without actually killing them. If you have that one "power-player" that just has to have that one particular cyborg implant, well can you can no-anesthesia?) IHTH, Abel (TNE/T2.2K fanatic) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:02:54 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) In a message dated 03/05/2000 5:32:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, baiya@geocities.com writes: << But that is exactly not what guerillas are, in the sense we were discussing. In fact, that may not even fit the general definition of guerillas, even if the type of fighting does fit the definition of guerrilla-warfare. I'd think that trained personnel, operating behind enemy lines, would be more like commandos than guerillas. Cor >> Not to belabor the point, but I think Scott Orr's book title says it all "An American Guerilla in the Phillipines." Also don't forget the Phillipines at the time was a US colony/commonwealth/whatever. So anyone taking up arms against the Japanese occupiers would be an american guerilla. Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:07:55 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) In a message dated 03/05/2000 10:44:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, baiya@geocities.com writes: << I don't remember exactly. I seem to recall that there was something going on in Europe, that's why we had no help from Allies. Also, I think the reason for the invasion was a bad harvest in Soviet Union. That's why the invasion took place in central US and California... That, and the old rule of divide and conquer (of course that also put the invaders into a two-front war) Cor >> Dont recall any Soviets getting into California in "Red Dawn", although it's been a few years since I last saw the movie. Why Europe didn't help us out? At the very beginning of the movie, they show some background info to set up the situation, and one of the interesting points was that NATO was disbanded. Another thought to ponder, didn't Powers Boothe's character (the Air Force pilot) say that the Mexicans had infiltrated several military bases and sabotaged them? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:08:29 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) In a message dated 03/05/2000 10:53:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, baiya@geocities.com writes: << I cannot see China mounting a large enough amphibious assault on the US, even without consideration of the US Navy. I have to interject one sort of funny here, about Canada. You do all know that Vancouver was on it's way to becoming New Hong Kong the few years preceding the hand over? But, considering the reasons why, I would say that China couldn't get in through there any more than they could start a fifth column here. Though there are loyalist Chinese students here, they are a minority of the Chinese community, many of which would hunt those loyalist down for any actions they might take against the US. Many ABCs either don't speak Chinese, or speak it badly (and are often looked down upon by mainland Chinese because of it; while at the same time the ABCs lookdown on the Mainlanders as poor hicks...) Most of those ABCs are of Cantonese, southern Chinese decent, while the official tongue of Mainland China is Mandarin. >> Sorry Jim, Gotta side with Cor on this one. I think it was loonz who said awhile back that the PLA Navy doesn't have the capability to support an amphibious assault, let alone a decent blue water navy to make the transition. Also the majority of the ethnic Chinese in the US and Canada couldn't give a rat's ass what "Da Lu" would want them to do if such a conflict came about. They may still have emotional ties and such, but actual loyalty to the PRC government, forget it. Most of them after the 1st generation (American Born Chinese) have adopted the traditions and mindset of their new homeland. If anything, they'd volunteer to help fight the invader, kind of like WWII and the Japanese Americans. Most of the newer Chinese immigrants to the US are from Taiwan or Hong Kong and wouldn't support the PRC either. Let's not forget there's a reason why mainland Chinese pay $30,000 US to cram themselves into shipping containers and sneak into California. Contrary to what the TV commercials say, it sure ain't the cheese. In all seriousness, I think if ethnic Chinese were to show some sort of rampant nationalism, it would be some place like Indonesia, where they' ve been openly persecuted the last few years. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:07:09 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) In a message dated 03/05/2000 5:32:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, baiya@geocities.com writes: << But that is exactly not what guerillas are, in the sense we were discussing. In fact, that may not even fit the general definition of guerillas, even if the type of fighting does fit the definition of guerrilla-warfare. I'd think that trained personnel, operating behind enemy lines, would be more like commandos than guerillas. Cor >> Not to belabor the point, but I think Scott Orr's book title says it all "An American Guerilla in the Phillipines." Also don't forget the Phillipines at the time was a US colony/commonwealth/whatever. So anyone taking up arms against the Japanese occupiers would be an american guerilla. Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:43:23 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) - -----Original Message----- From: Scott David Orr >Corey Wells wrote: >And as I think of it, it is probably commonly accepted that the Viet >Cong were guerillas. But, a lot of Viet Cong were trained by NVA, or other >SOF/Advisor personnel. > "Guerilla" usually refers to a style of warfare, using hit-and-run raids rather than trying to take and hold territory; it also usually implies that you're living off the land, making use of support from civilians, and so on. The VC did all of these things, even if they had orders and supplies from outside (just about all successful guerillas have some supplies from outside). Agreed. In reference to "supplies from the outside" for the VC: did you know that Uncle Ho received gold from the US of A for his "guerilla" war against the Japanese during W.W.II? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:24:04 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) - -----Original Message----- From: Ballistix Why does the enemy in the Scenario have to come from just outside the USA??? If the US is anything like Australia it would be relatively easy to start having people enter the country as immigrants. This would have to be a long term plan of course.... >This would be more difficult than might appear on the surface. The US does control immigration and our internal spy agency (FBI) does a pretty good job spying on non-US citizens. One of the most recent unsung victories of the FBI was catching middle eastern agents (terrorists) before they even reached America by turning them in to the French and British government authorities; this was in conjunction of the President's bombing of so called "Terrorist Training Bases" in the middle east a little over a year ago. This is perhaps the same reason that Chinese spying was "allowed" to continue for so long at Los Alamos: to catch other spies. Los Alamos has a lot of history, but it is no longer the leading R&D house for nuke technology; and if you know who the spy is you can control what he "learns" AND if you then turn around and "allow" US companies (like *THE* Company) sell the Chinese so called missile technology then maybe, just maybe, you can nullify the effectiveness of their missiles... When the President relented on selling the "PDG" scrambling technology abroad it wasn't just because it was on the internet and across the globe already -it was because the US government has "cracked" this now obsolete technology. Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:28:50 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: u.s. defense spending [was Game settings (Red Dawn)] - -----Original Message----- From: Scott David Orr In theory, the goverment could fix this by paying for the R&D itself. However, the hitch is that there's no good way for the government (as opposed to the market) to predict what technologies will be valuable and what ones won't. This means that it's quite probable that the government effort is wasted, despite the theoretical possiblity of benefits. >Quite probable is right on! (Scott I never figured you to be a free market conservative!) I couldn't agree with you more. Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 20:43:05 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) - -----Original Message----- From: Jim & Peta Lawrie >How would YOU go about >explaining >the situation in Red Dawn in such a way that you would not be able to blow >it out of the water just as easily? >Jesse. For a hostile power to invade the US, the most powerful nation on earth, you need a lot of factors. I'll try for two scenarios. Scenario 1 or Scenario 2 Add to these two scenarios, to make them work, you need to nullify the US Navy somehow. America is naturally protected by the Atlantic and Pacific; add to that the worlds most powerful Navy to the defense and you will feel like Sadam during the air war of the Gulf conflict. One interesting theory for postulating a "near" future nullification of the US Navy is the Japanese taking naval stealth technology to the next generation and then buying up someone else's navy(s) to become the seas' dominant player. (BTW this is XTR's Ty Bomba's idea.) Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:00:28 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 03:57 PM 3/6/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: > >> Well, I would think of guerilla being the person who carries out that type >> of warfare, hence the term "gurilla warfare." But I understand your >point. >> So, there should still be a separate term, and a non-hostile one (I don't >> want to hear "terrorists",) to describe specifically untrained civilian >> fighters. > >Guerilla Warfare is a tactic used to disrupt and harass the enemy. Terrorism >is those acts where violence is used in an attempt to make political >advantage. >So in essence they wouldn't be terrorists. You could label them Guerilla >Fighters >if you wished to use the term. Although I'd still be tempted to say that >they are >a militia unit, trained in guerilla tactics. > I don't think that's the distinction I'd draw: guerillas can also hope to have a political effect (in fact, unless they're acting in support of an army, having a political effect is their main goal). The line that I think is usually drawn is that terrorists attempt to operate through fear, but hitting civilian targets, whereas guerillas attack only combatants, and perhaps infrastructure. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:02:40 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) At 03:08 AM 3/6/00 -0600, Fugitivus wrote: > i beleive it comes down to the individual. if he believes in the >convention and has not seen anything to cause undue hatered of the enemy >then he may still follow many of the laws. > Well, _everything_ comes down to the individual eventually. :) But with war crimes it depends in part on whether his country (or whatever country wins the war) is willing to prosecute for war crimes (this includes the ever-popular summary execution). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:05:48 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) At 04:21 PM 3/6/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: >> Which statement? > >The one about the members of a party reaping what they sow in >regards to whether or not they follow the geneva convention. > >It was something along the lines of if you don't treat your prisoners >right etc then when one of you becomes the prisoner then you'd >end up with the same treatment if not worse. Also it helps the party >to be seen as humane, you know fair and just etc when dealing >with people. > That's true, as long as they stay in the same area over time, or if they're a member of a big force (like a whole national army) has a reputation as whole. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:08:43 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 12:34 AM 3/6/00 -0800, Jesse LaBranche wrote: >> > What kind of things would you do to actually make the campaign a >> >bit more enduring than it would most likely be with a group of kids as >> >shown in the movie, while still holding to the "flavor" of it? > >> Well, have them act like real guerillas. :) Emphasize that the most >> important thing is staying alive and in the field, and that hitting the >> enemy takes second priority. You can find lots of examples in history and >> in fiction to inspire specific missions. > >True enough. Any particular suggestions on your part though? > Hmm...one useful thing might be to let them find a copy of a book on guerilla warfare--especially a how-to manual like Che Guevarra's _Guerilla_Warfare_ (it should be said that Che didn't know anythign about real guerilla warfare, and that the book isn't based on the actual experiences of Castro's revoluationaries who saw limited fighting, but it's a pretty good book). You could even go out and buy the actual book and hand it to the players. Scott Or *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 19:58:24 -0600 From: Lan Kelly Subject: Re: Alternate setting (Long) Jesse LaBranche wrote: >Hey Everyone, < trim> > I haven't managed to find an appropriate vehicle, but I have >been looking at something in the neighborhood of a FAV built >for 5. > The closest thing I am coming up with is a Hummer, any ideas? >They will be somewhat light on the EQ and fuel won't generally be >a problem as presented in T2k. I would suggest going with a pair. That's how they operate anyway. If you go with something like the SEAL's version it carries two in the conventional seats and a third up high over the engine operation a Mk19 or a M2HB and the seat can pivot to the rear mounted M60, they also carry AT-4's and lot's of gear. The FAV is the Wessex Saker LSV (Light Strike Vehicle). Another besides the hummer is the Land Rover Spec Ops Vehicle that is used by USA Rangers. Another thought is to have a couple of FAV's and a MilSpec Motorcycle carried on a frame mounted to each. As to the setting I suggest GURPS Reign of Steel. In it the world has been taken over by several major AI's and they are exterminating or using humans. It can be toned down for what you want. It also have lots of robots from worker types to Hunter / killers. Another GURPS setting is Terradyne set in the near future with the solar system being settled and controlled by the "The Big Corporations". This is less war oriented, although that can be adjusted. The only problem is out of print, although I have seen both RoS & Terradyne in used book stores. I've never used Rifts and so have little info there. LAN Lan Kelly Lan@stic.net San Antonio, Texas ********** "In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria." German Proverb *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:11:48 EST From: Damage169@cs.com Subject: Re: Red Dawn Possible? In a message dated 3/5/00 11:25:34 PM Central Standard Time, "Jesse LaBranche" writes: > What would you guys (both for and against the movie) set up to put > American > teen-agers into a combat situation where they'd have to fight a guerilla war > with > opposing forces? > The only way I could see it happening is if a group of American teens were all either foreign exchange students or on spring break/summer vacation, and the country they're in gets invaded. With the help of their local friends providing the info on the local terrain, the Ami-teens could provide the "Rambo-tise." This would hold doubly true if the country they're in has a lack of gun ownership among the general populace. Then the Americans would be able to use their Hollywood military training to some use. Other than this, I can't really see any way to "realistically" pull it off. Simon Jester *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:30:28 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) At 12:04 PM 3/6/00 -0000, Mark Oliver wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Scott David Orr >To: >Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) > > >> True. BTW, Pinochet isn't really a "war criminal", since his actions were >> mainly aimed at political dissidents--he was accused I think of crimes >> against humanity. > >Worth noting about Pinochet is that certain politicians in the UK believed >that he should have been released, in fact not even detained, because of the >assistance Chile gave to the UK during the Argentinian invasion of the >Falkland Islands. > >This goes to show that it's not the crimes commited that are the deciding >factor in such prosecutions (or attempted extraidition to face prosecution) >but on whose "side" the perpertrator of the attrocities is. > >Does anyone believe that in 10 or 20 years time if a western nation managed >to detain Saddam Hussein he would be excused extradition for "ill health"? >How would we feel if some Iraq friendly nation detained him and refused our >requests for extradition because of help he had given them some time before? > He might be if his country didn't want him tried. I think the feelings of Chile were critical here: especially since the whole deal that alowed a transition to democracy depended on him not being tried. If dictators know that any deal they make won't "stick", because other countries won't honor it, what incentive is there to go peacefully? Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:02:37 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 07:27 AM 3/7/00 +1100, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > Talk about right on the nail! > In my PbEM nearly all the players are Riflemen and Privates to boot. I >like to emphasise that these guys are far better than elite soldiers, they >do the unglamourous jobs and win wars without being grenade-in-the-teeth >Rambos. It takes a lot of quiet courage to follow a young officer into the >artillery where the tombstones grow. > They also have a huge society, T2K assumes everyone is a top sergeant or >LTC but in reality the army is 90% Privates. They have a social structure >that NCOs and officers have trouble penetrating, I allow a certain amount of >passive help along these social lines. In my game there is an unspoken code >that the lower enlisted never involve the other ranks in their troubles, >they work it out themselves without involving those authority figures. I think in the RDF Sourcebook it points out that in the U.S. Army, there are not in fact many privates--by the time someone is in an operational unit, he or she is at least a Spec-4. If you use the tables for other forces (esp. those in RDF Sourcebook), you do get some privates. Another thing to remember is that it's a long war, and most of the characters involved have been in the military for a few years. This means that there won't be many people of the lowest ranks around, if only because of automatic promotions for time in service. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:13:12 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: vehicle conversions (rant) At 05:16 PM 3/6/00 -0500, Garcia, Abel wrote: >-----Original Message----- >>>Walter wrote: >>>If I recall my physics correctly ... specific gravity is a number relating >>>the weight (or mass) per volume as related to water. Water weighs a >certain >>>amount per volume. Thus a material that has a specific gravity of 2, >weighs >>>twice as much per volume as water. > >>From: Scott David Orr >>In other words, it's essentially the same thing as density. > >Scott that is a true statement only for water at 4C and the density units >are in grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc): both are equal to one. > >Density (dn) of a substance is the mass per unit volume of that substance: >pound mass per cubic foot (lbm/ft3), or gram per cubic centimeter (g/cc) > >Specific gravity(SG) is the ratio of a substance's density (dn) to the >density of a reference substance (commonly water) at a specific condition >(dn(ref)): >SG=dn/dn(ref); e.g.: SG(H2O, 4C)=(1 g/cc)/(1g/cc) = 1 > >While density (dn) has dimensional units (like g/cc), SG is "dimensionless". >One advantage of dimensionless reference for materials is that you can tell >a glance if something is "lighter" or "heavier" than your reference >substance. (e.g. SG=0.9 will float on water.) You can also calculate the >density of any substance by multiplying its SG by the density of your >reference. > Like I said, it's essentially density. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 19:13:37 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) I had a thought, well, maybe two: Does one have to be concerned with the Rules of War (ala the GC) if something isn't officially a war? How about War Crimes? I know that Crimes Against Humanity don't have to take place within the idea of a war, but what about the other things that don't exactly qualify as Crimes Against Humanity. If there's no war, is there a crime? Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:33:58 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 08:24 PM 3/6/00 -0500, Garcia, Abel wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Ballistix >Why does the enemy in the Scenario have to come from >just outside the USA??? If the US is anything like Australia it would be >relatively >easy to start having people enter the country as immigrants. >This would have to be a long term plan of course.... > >>This would be more difficult than might appear on the surface. The US does >control immigration and our internal spy agency (FBI) does a pretty good job >spying on non-US citizens. One of the most recent unsung victories of the >FBI was catching middle eastern agents (terrorists) before they even reached >America by turning them in to the French and British government authorities; >this was in conjunction of the President's bombing of so called "Terrorist >Training Bases" in the middle east a little over a year ago. >This is perhaps the same reason that Chinese spying was "allowed" to >continue for so long at Los Alamos: to catch other spies. Los Alamos has a >lot of history, but it is no longer the leading R&D house for nuke >technology; and if you know who the spy is you can control what he "learns" >AND if you then turn around and "allow" US companies (like *THE* Company) >sell the Chinese so called missile technology then maybe, just maybe, you >can nullify the effectiveness of their missiles... >When the President relented on selling the "PDG" scrambling technology >abroad it wasn't just because it was on the internet and across the globe >already -it was because the US government has "cracked" this now obsolete >technology. What's your evidence for this? Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:38:07 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Laws of War (Was game settings, then Red Dawn :-) At 07:13 PM 3/6/00 -0800, Corey Wells wrote: > >I had a thought, well, maybe two: Does one have to be concerned with the >Rules of War (ala the GC) if something isn't officially a war? How about >War Crimes? I know that Crimes Against Humanity don't have to take place >within the idea of a war, but what about the other things that don't exactly >qualify as Crimes Against Humanity. If there's no war, is there a crime? > If you have uniformed combatants, it's officially considered a war, I believe. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 22:08:18 -0600 From: Craig Gulledge Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Jesse LaBranche wrote: > > Well something more like Red Star/Lone Star, with a lot that goes on > > beforehand, I could maybe believe--but I can't think of any sort of > > surprise attack that would work. > > Scott Orr > > Fair enough. Using RS/LS as a basis, what would you suggest for a > scenario such as Red Dawn? Would you use the basic premise of the > movie setting it in Texas? Or address a situation specifically in > Colorado? This is, I think, where the game I played in, many many years ago, drew it's inspiration. I remember the over-running of South texas and the defeat of the 49th Armored, with occupation by Soviet and Cuban forces, tho' strictly speaking the Division Cuba was Soviet personnel. The characters were a sprinking of "green" soldiers, from the 49th, rounded out by civilians. We played in a "partisan" sort of game, little support from the outside, but lots of support from the local population. We did a lot of the attack the supply dump, ambush the collumn, and run from the guys wearing striped t-shirts. There was one occasion where we provided support to a SF team making a big raid on the division HQ . I also remember, the GM running us through the ringer as locals were executed for supporting us, and our group was sloppy in covering our tracks. This in a way, reminds me of the running around in Poland that a lot of groups tend to do, that is harrass the Soviets while trying to find material to sustain your action. > What kind of things would you do to actually make the campaign a > bit more enduring than it would most likely be with a group of kids as > shown in the movie, while still holding to the "flavor" of it? > The characters we put together, we created at a limited point cost, pardon me it has been a while since I put together a T:2K character, I seem to recall we got half the normal # of points to spend in skills. I played an ex-tanker/driver who could drive, but that seemed to be all he was good at. Craig Gulledge *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #122 *************************************