twilight2000-digest Sunday, March 5 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 114 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Good books (Was Beyond Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. (taxonomy now) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. (taxonomy now) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Australian Defense Forces : Army [VERY SHORT POST] Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) choppers Re: choppers Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #112 Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: choppers Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) response(Starvation) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 10:55:00 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Good books (Was Beyond Red Dawn) Graebarde wrote: > Along the thread of media scenarios, one of the books of > post nuclear war survival that I found "enjoyable" and have > reread several times is "Malevil" . I tried to find the > book in my maze I call a library, but to no avail [yet] so > I'm not sure if it's the correct spelling, or who the > author was.. I beleive he was French, as it is set in > France.. It was written in the 70's I beleive, maybe > before.. but it shows all the trials of survival: dealing > with marauders, warlords, refugees, and plain people like > themselves trying to survive.. I found it well written. You got the title correct: "Malevil" by Robert Merle. The cover shows a nuke (I think) in the background with a half dozen people standing in front of the explosion, and a guy on a horse. They even show a guy holding a crossbow and I can't help but think of the "truck-spring" crossbows while looking at it. Never read the book, but I think that I am about to :-) Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:07:40 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > > The movie was lame in the extreme. Ignoring for the moment the > > improbability of the original premise, real guerillas do not run around > > getting killed until none of them are left; real guerillas run and hide > > most of the time, fighting only when they've got a clear advantage. And > > they also make a habit of recruiting to replenish their numbers, not just > > sitting around until there are none left--a guerilla campaign that gets > > squashed quickly is pointless, the whole idea being to keep the enemy tied > > down indefinitely. > I agree... the way the conducted their ops you wondered WHERE they got their > intel, how they got there without the locals noticing them (and someone WOULD), > and little things like that. The military would have definately been seeding > the area of Colorado (etc) in the movie with Special Forces A-Teams to sow > dissension in the ranks of the enemy and disrrupt day to day operations. Still > as lame as RD may seem Chuck Norris' film "Invasion: USA" was worse-think we > can all agree on that... > T.R. Okay, while Hollywood will be Hollywood and the film was far from completely accurate, much of what you're objecting to was covered in the film. Seeding an occupied area with SF teams did not seem to really do much in most areas where local uprising took place in the past. While the guerillas that make the difference may well do as Scott mentioned above, how many other forces without the training/knowledge do get crushed as quickly as suggested- yet one blow to the enemy is still a blow to them. The idea also that those "quickly crushed" buy time for those who are not so quickly gotten rid of. Small uprisings seem to often attract merc forces and even SOG's to them and get training and supplies often well after they started ops. As far as where the Red Dawn kids got their intel and how they moved, the movie was more indirect about this- but it was shown. They did go into the city on more than one occassion and did have contact with the locals. Many of the locals who would not directly resist the opposition- still would be able to provide information and routines. It was clearly shown that the one kid was visiting his father- the mayor- and was the way that the "hunter" tracked the group with the homing beacon. Also, while "real guerillas" will do this, that, or the other thing. These were not guerillas. They were kids operating in an area that they knew probably pretty intimately. When living in Colorado/Utah, I know LOTS of kids even at the elementary level that could hunt and survive in some of the nastiest terrain in the US and do well for themselves. I guess that while I am agreeing that the show was "typical Hollywood" with many problems, it had a lot of good food for thought, and most of the objections seem to be because you missed something in the movie itself. Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 11:11:05 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > > Oh yeah--and I only saw one scene from it, on Siskel & Ebert--but it was a > > BAD scene. > HEH > I actually saw it... had to stay up late for a sleep EEG the next day, the plot > was loose... you were amazed that Chuck could take on all the invaders himself > with no need for support! > :-) > T.R. Some decent thoughts behind the movie- but by and far both the worst US invasion, and Chuck Norris movie that I have ever seen. Full of one-liners and hollywood special effects, it almost had a story and did have a very shaky plot and resolution to the situation. In one of the scenes- Norris fires a LAWs at a guy blowing him out a window, wasn't there a wall behind Norris, and shouldn't the guy have been too close for the rocket to have armed yet? Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 12:59:20 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) Corey Wells wrote: > > There's a lot of work that must be done to create animation. Think of how > easy it is to film a person running across a field. Maybe takes a few hours > with retakes and different angles. Now imagine drawing each frame of > movement of an animated character running across the field. We're now > talking days instead of hours -- and just for one angle. Want multiple > angles? Multiply the time needed by each additional angle. Unless you dont have money you will probably have more than one camera, so you could even probably just do the shot once. At least for somebody running across a field. Dialogue is different *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 15:15:21 -0700 From: Rogue09@Sprynet.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > > As far as where the Red Dawn kids got their intel and how they moved, > the > movie was more indirect about this- but it was shown. They did go into the > city on > more than one occassion and did have contact with the locals. > Many of the locals who would not directly resist the opposition- still > would be > able to provide information and routines. It was clearly shown that the one > kid was > visiting his father- the mayor- and was the way that the "hunter" tracked > the group > with the homing beacon. The only problem with this is that all of us know in such a scenario the townspeople would be bombarded with propaganda about who evil those kids were now... rewards would be offered for their heads as well... rewards such as food, money, etc would definately make people think twice about co-operating... especially if they had a chance to better themselves and loved ones. Thats one thing Communism has been good at, getting one's former neighbor to turn in the other for bigger apartments (et. al). They would be hard pressed to move around their town at all as the invading elements would have made sure everyone knew what they looked like and how badly they wanted the citizens "co-operation" in their capture. > > When living in Colorado/Utah, I know LOTS of kids even at the elementary > level that could hunt and survive in some of the nastiest terrain in the US > and do > well for themselves. Well living around my neck of the woods you know how mild we've had winters here in the foothills and valleys for the past 11 years now... they would have been better off to drop down in elevation to find game and free flowing water. Not to mention temperature differences, there are some valleys and foothill areas which are naturally warmer in the winter than areas 20 miles away (thermal pockets). My objections to the movie simply were they took a lot for granted, assumed even more and glossed over other points. YEah that's Hollywood for yeah I know, I always thought the Red Dawn scenario if re-worked would make a good mini-series or tv series... as you'd have more time to develop the characters (both good guys and the bad guys), the plot, establish the conditions and events (et.al). Mind you the movie did have it's good spots, and they put some thought into the pretense of the invasion but it could have been better. T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 14:22:47 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. (taxonomy now) Ok lets get the animals straight then: Shrimp - phylum arthropoda, subphylum crustacea, class malacostraca Squid - phylum mollusca, class cephalopoda Octopus - same as squid A squid isn't a kind of octopus-- they're from the same class but in different subclasses. shrimp are of the same phylum as insects but again, not a kind of insect. Ray Wiberg wrote: > They are different critters all together. > > On Sat, 4 Mar 2000 CMarkChester@aol.com wrote: > > > Nope. Squid is Squid, ie a form of Octopus!! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------------- > > "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a > > medical name for it!" > > "Yes it's called cowardice" > > (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------------- > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 14:26:46 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > The only problem with this is that all of us know in such a scenario the > townspeople would be bombarded with propaganda about who evil those kids were > now... rewards would be offered for their heads as well... rewards such as > food, money, etc would definately make people think twice about co-operating... > especially if they had a chance to better themselves and loved ones. Thats one > thing Communism has been good at, getting one's former neighbor to turn in the > other for bigger apartments (et. al). They would be hard pressed to move around > their town at all as the invading elements would have made sure everyone knew > what they looked like and how badly they wanted the citizens "co-operation" in > their capture. This is true. I kind of thought that their ability to capture the one kid and feed him the transmitter was a part of this very propaganda/reward type action actually. Also, part of the problem from what I saw was that they were having trouble determining exactly who the wolverines were and they were unable to focus directly on that group alone- considering problems in multiple areas. > Well living around my neck of the woods you know how mild we've had winters here > in the foothills and valleys for the past 11 years now... they would have been > better off to drop down in elevation to find game and free flowing water. Not > to mention temperature differences, there are some valleys and foothill areas > which are naturally warmer in the winter than areas 20 miles away (thermal > pockets). My objections to the movie simply were they took a lot for granted, > assumed even more and glossed over other points. YEah that's Hollywood for yeah > I know, I always thought the Red Dawn scenario if re-worked would make a good > mini-series or tv series... as you'd have more time to develop the characters > (both good guys and the bad guys), the plot, establish the conditions and events > (et.al). Mind you the movie did have it's good spots, and they put some t hought > into the pretense of the invasion but it could have been better. > T.R. Wonder if part of being in such ridiculous areas was part of what kept the enemy from putting a quick end to them. Possibly, they were in the higher areas because the lower were so overfilled with soldiery that this was only where it was safe. Whatever the case, I can agree that it could have been MUCH better though :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 14:29:00 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. (taxonomy now) > Ok lets get the animals straight then: > Shrimp - phylum arthropoda, subphylum crustacea, class malacostraca > Squid - phylum mollusca, class cephalopoda > Octopus - same as squid > A squid isn't a kind of octopus-- they're from the same class but in different > subclasses. shrimp are of the same phylum as insects but again, not a kind of > insect. Mmmm.... Anybody care for a dash of malacostraca with their steak? Or how about some of that caphalopoda? :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:20:28 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > >True, and many point at liberal Democrats being behind the movie. At the >same time, people point at Red Dawn and call it a Pro-Gun ownership film (or >anti-Anti-gun, or Anti-gun control... However you want to put it.). >Possibly true. It's easy to look at the film and say "If they outlawed >private gun ownership, those kids wouldn't have been able to do anything..." > Reminds me of that scene when that Russian(or is it Cuban? Don't think you see his face) airborne officer pulls a pistol out of the hand of a corpse, then you see a bumper sticker on a truck that says, "You can have my gun after you pry it out of my cold dead hand." Or something to that effect. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 00:05:00 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Australian Defense Forces : Army [VERY SHORT POST] Sorry Jesse, I wouldn't have a clue what version it is. I just downloaded it directly from the net. By highlight I actually meant list :) Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:27:08 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) >> what i liked the most was some of the armoured stuff they had in the >>film. >> >How so? > >Scott Orr Well my copy of Red Dawn is pretty fuzzy, but most of the Pact armored vehicles look pretty much like I expected them to ie the BTR's, BRDM's, and the ZSU-23 they show in the beginning. I always wondered how they managed to film some of those sequences, actual vehicles, blue screen and models or what. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:38:23 -0600 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) exactly. they were probobly just modifed from some other vehicles, but i thought they looked okay. the small tank engagment later was okay as well, although not very mobile. the hind bit was better than many i had scene. like rambo 2, 3. were they puma's with bits added? many of the video stores that i see it in have it in action. had it been a serious war film then i would look for more problems with it. aaron > Well my copy of Red Dawn is pretty fuzzy, but most of the Pact > armored vehicles look pretty much like I expected them to > ie the BTR's, BRDM's, and the ZSU-23 they show in the > beginning *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 18:40:26 -0600 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: choppers how many are using choppers in their games and in what use? transport or gunships? has anyone made stats for some of the new choppers that have appeared after twilight fell out of print? aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 16:36:37 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: choppers The only campaigns I've had choppers in we Persian gulf and Merc scenarios.. Persian gulf we used MH53E's while in Merc they were supported by Defender's and UH1N's, but in very limited number. In merc they also had a O1 birddog that was their "principle" air support. A1E "Sandys" were also available [hey it was my world right], but usually didn't get there due to response times.. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2000 19:39:15 EST From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #112 In a message dated 00-03-04 01:31:26 EST, you write: << People who eat rabbit, cringe at the thought of rat, yet they are both rodents, >> Rabbits are lagomorphs, not rodents. The difference is technical, I will admit, but I was a biology minor . . . LKW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 21:44:29 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 02:16 AM 3/4/00 -0800, Corey Wells wrote: > >> > >> Where do you think real guerillas come from? It's not like they have >> government training programs for them. In fact, being erstwhile >civilians, >> most guerillas in history have had very well-developed senses of >> self-preservation--they carefully avoided stand-up fights. >> >When was the last time you've seen American guerillas? I think the closest >would have been during the Civil War. True that guerillas don't have >established training centres, but they do often have someone with a former >military background leading/training them. I believe all the more >successful guerillas have had such. And by successful, I mean simply being >able to harass the opposition without being decimated themselves. > Well, the people in, say, the French Resistance, although civilians, knew better than to expose themselves to unnecsessary danger--it doesn't take military expereince to do that. >The thing is, most highschool kids in the US would really only have >Hollywood to give them "training" material, including Red Dawn. Not to say >there aren't those with more developed tactical and strategic senses. But >those would make up a minority. As it is, I came across a line in Harold >Coyle's book that suggests that a 'grunt' in the Army really only has to >decide between two choices in any situation: to follow an order, or not to >follow it. > >I'll admit no military background on my part besides tons of reading since I >first could read. I know the whole thing about an American soldier having >to base decisions on morality now (Viet Nam?) But, training still >conditions them to snap at orders. Everything else, and taking orders >included, is for survival. How to best make use of terrain for cover, >sighting fire, that such. But those don't take decisions between choices >(maybe deciding whether to take cover behind the wood pile or the brick >wall, but that's nitpicking.) So, only to follow orders or not to. > >So, considering that, your specialist grade "grunt" would really only have >the advantage of weapons and survival training over the high school kids. >When it comes to conducting operations, that would come from experience, >officer schools, or some form of special training (I'm sure the lowest >ranking enlisted Green Beret would be better at formulating and operations >plan than a plain Infantry Second Lieutenant right out of OTC.) > >So, my point? That the film isn't overly realistic, but isn't as >far-fetched in some respects either. You're dealing with a bunch of >highscool kids with Hollywood as their teacher, and a "not in my backyard" >attitude. Are you from the US Scott? If so, you must have known guys who >would act/react the same way while you were growing up. I know I did. We >can only hope that one of us "smarter" ones would be around to guide them >some. But then, it was usually the jock that everyone would turn to. Me, >I'd sit up in the hills while they all followed him to their deaths. After >I tried to warn them, of course. > No, I didn't know anyone who would intentionally do things that had a high probability of getting them killed.... Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 21:57:25 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 11:07 AM 3/4/00 -0800, Jesse LaBranche wrote: > Also, while "real guerillas" will do this, that, or the other thing. >These were not >guerillas. They were kids operating in an area that they knew probably >pretty >intimately. That's exactly what real guerillas are--there's no training school for it. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 21:59:43 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 03:15 PM 3/4/00 -0700, Rogue09@Sprynet.com wrote: >Mind you the movie did have it's good spots, and they put some thought >into the pretense of the invasion but it could have been better. > You can't be serious? The premise of the invasion wasn't even remotely plausible. You don't think the FAA would would notice all those "charter flights" coming into the U.S. at the same time? Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2000 22:20:33 -0700 From: Rogue09@Sprynet.com Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > > > > You can't be serious? The premise of the invasion wasn't even remotely > plausible. You don't think the FAA would would notice all those "charter > flights" coming into the U.S. at the same time? No... I wasn't serious... doesn't anyone recoginize sarcasim anymore?? T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 00:22:50 EST From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Re: choppers In a message dated 3/4/00 7:47:52 PM, cell-66@softhome.net writes: << how many are using choppers in their games and in what use? transport or gunships? >> I run a more 'organized' campaign in which my players are still fighting WWIII. Both sides still have an organized chain of command and are well armed. Both sides have and utilize helicopters for transport and attack, but not on a wide scale. Considering the vast reduction in parts and fuel, they are used only for spec ops. Other than the Aviation/Nautical Handbook, I haven't seen any more recent additions. - -Billy Bob *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 01:37:42 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 10:20 PM 3/4/00 -0700, Rogue09@Sprynet.com wrote: >> >> > >> You can't be serious? The premise of the invasion wasn't even remotely >> plausible. You don't think the FAA would would notice all those "charter >> flights" coming into the U.S. at the same time? > >No... I wasn't serious... doesn't anyone recoginize sarcasim anymore?? > Sorry...I have had people try to tell me it was plausible. ;) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 02:17:43 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > exactly. they were probobly just modifed from some other vehicles, but i > thought they looked okay. the small tank engagment later was okay as well, > although not very mobile. > the hind bit was better than many i had scene. like rambo 2, 3. were > they puma's with bits added? > > many of the video stores that i see it in have it in action. had it been > a serious war film then i would look for more problems with it. > > aaron > This an interesting thing. Around the time of those movies, we wondered about how Hollywood could make some of those Hinds. Then that there appeared to be totally different front ends to those things. (Bubble canopies, but one movie had one with just a straight canopy.) Then a few years later I picked up a book on the Hind, and lo, the Hind -A looks significantly different from the other models. And later improvements to the engine, weapons load, and air-intakes changed the look of later models. I don't know about the Pumas. I do know that it's supposedly easy to do a mock-up of the Hind -A with a couple western helicopters. Also, I understand it was possible (and done once) to buy a non-armed Hind from the Soviets, during the 80s! And there's story that we got our hands on some downed Hinds from Afghanistan during their war. Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 02:22:50 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > > > No, I didn't know anyone who would intentionally do things that had a high > probability of getting them killed.... > > > Scott Orr I think you give the American youth too much credit. It takes knowledge of that "high probability" to avoid it. Again, with American youth being fed slewed information from Hollywood, they would likely think they could run through a hail of bullets and not get hit. Maybe you're much older than I, so you're from that smarter generation. I was about the age of the characters in Red Dawn when the movie came out. I knew of people that would have no idea. Go all gung-ho, but with no intelligence. And, I'd say it would be even worse today. In a few more years, we'll have kids thinking they could pull off the stunts showcased in the Matrix. Besides, you telling me you didn't know any dumb jocks?! I find that hard to believe. They've been around as long as school sports has been. Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2000 02:29:21 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) > >> > > >> You can't be serious? The premise of the invasion wasn't even remotely > >> plausible. You don't think the FAA would would notice all those "charter > >> flights" coming into the U.S. at the same time? > > > >No... I wasn't serious... doesn't anyone recoginize sarcasim anymore?? > > > Sorry...I have had people try to tell me it was plausible. ;) > > Scott Orr > *************************************************************************** I need to watch the film again. I thought they were "supposedly" standard airline traffic, not chartered. Even if chartered, how fast would we react to it? But, it still begs the question, if they were airliner type craft, perhaps flying low and slow enough to paradrop, how'd they'd get the heavy equipment in? As far as the plausibility, I think they'd be able to get as far as Oklahoma, before we'd do much of anything. If they portrayed themselves convincingly as civilian traffic, using truly civilian craft. We're not all that trigger happy nowadays (remember the incident in the Gulf with the Iranian airliner?) And didn't Powers Booth's character say something about that's how they went into Afghanistan or something? But still, I think you'd only end up with lightly armed airborne troops, no heavy equipment. Anybody remember a board game called Fortress America? Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 06:10:13 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Game settings (Red Dawn) At 02:29 AM 3/5/00 -0800, Corey Wells wrote: > >I need to watch the film again. I thought they were "supposedly" standard >airline traffic, not chartered. Even if chartered, how fast would we react >to it? But, it still begs the question, if they were airliner type craft, >perhaps flying low and slow enough to paradrop, how'd they'd get the heavy >equipment in? > They were supposed to be charter flights--but charter operators have to have licencses and such, and file flight plans (hell, Piper Cubs have to file flight plans). First off, no one would believe that many charter flights coming in at one time. Second, the charters would be immediatley identifiable as belonging to Russian companies, unless the Russians established front companies--and given the cost of airliners, the latter just isn't feasible (you CANNOT launder the kind of money it takes to set up an airline). Third, the FAA would quickly noticed that 90% of the charter flights on a given day were deviating from flight plans. Fourth, any plane capable of airdropping troops in large numbers, and especially equipment, is not going to look like a normal airliner (it needs special cargo bay doors). >As far as the plausibility, I think they'd be able to get as far as >Oklahoma, before we'd do much of anything. If they portrayed themselves >convincingly as civilian traffic, using truly civilian craft. We're not all >that trigger happy nowadays (remember the incident in the Gulf with the >Iranian airliner?) And didn't Powers Booth's character say something about >that's how they went into Afghanistan or something? But still, I think >you'd only end up with lightly armed airborne troops, no heavy equipment. > In that situation, I have no doubt that triggers would be pulled. It would be just so freaking obvious....At any rate, even assuming surprise, actually supplying these troops would be impossible, because there's no way the next wave would get in--actually, the original wave of planes would never survive to land, even if they did manage to drop their troops. When this topic came up on a Usenet group, someone also pointed out that the purported drop zones were right next to some major military bases. I don't remember the details of Afghanistan, but it should be remembered that at the time of the "invasion" of Afghanistan the Aghan government was firmly in the Soviet orbit--there was no need for subterfuge. >Anybody remember a board game called Fortress America? > Yes, but no one took it seriously. :) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 10:53:54 -0600 From: Steve Subject: response(Starvation) GRAEBARDE wrote: > Steve: I don't know how you interjected starvation into > the campaign, nor what the "nasty response" was, so I can't > directly address your situation. As a HOG[gm], YOU control > the flow of the game, and provide the resources to the > players as YOU see it. > I interjected starvation into the campaign in a very slow and deliberate process, we had campaigned many months and I continued to reduce the food supply (Water contamination see below). If one was to look at the state of Ukraine after world WW2, many thousands of people starved to death, it was not simply a matter of planting more food, or foraging and fishing more. Perhaps Scott would have a better understanding of the cause, however the players never realized that at some point they would starve. (starvation, a period of months with out adequate food) > > In putting a starvation factor into the game, I do not just > one day say "your out of food and starving".. If the PC's > run out of food, they should realize if they don't get > some, THEY WILL STARVE. Let them decide how they are going > to get more food. <> > > How would I do it, as a PC I'd go down the list.. using > forage/hunt first, barter if I could, beg if I have to, and > if it comes to stealing, make DAMN SURE I'M NOT CAUGHT. > Fortunately, even in the worst situations I've campaigned > I've never reached option 5. I've had other PC's who's > first thought is stealing, but they were usually "talked" > out of it by the group as we all would pay the price of a > thief in our midst. > As far as foraging and fishing, etc. I envisioned a much more devastating world in "this particular campaign", I believe that most of us underestimate the effects of radiation and fallout. Not to mention the destruction caused by conventional weapons, and chemical spills, oil wells lit ablaze, etc. If one was to add the effects of nuclear winter, growing crops would be much more difficult then we ever imagined. >>>>nor what the "nasty response" was, so I can't >>>>>directly address your situation. The "nasty response" from my players was this; they simply refused to acknowledge that they would have any dire problems with food supply, in fact they balked at the idea. These players always thought there would all ways be rivers to fish, deer to hunt, etc. The point I tried to convey is that this many not be the case. An environment disaster (radiation, chemical, etc.) upstream a hundred miles, which is leaching material, could kill nearly every thing tied to that river system. An example of this could be the huge vats of cyanide used in mining and manufacturing, or meltdown of a nuclear reactor without a soul trying to contain it; it would spew radioactive material for months into a river system. I believe it would take an enormous amount of time for this system to recover. Correct me if I am wrong. In the scenario they were in, everything off this river was dead or dying, including people and wildlife. (Keep in mind I do not have every river system a disaster although most probably are in T2K). In this case, for hundreds of square miles around of the river system, the people had to evacuate and this put enormous pressure on the remaining food sources for hundreds of miles centering on the river system.(Oh, did I mention the toxic river flooded its banks that spring) So I hope you see that the underling conditions are much more complex then they appear. (IMHO) Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #114 *************************************