twilight2000-digest Thursday, March 2 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 109 The following topics are covered in this digest: RE: Military Link Webpage Re: Military Link Webpage Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Military Link Webpage Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Using Steel Panthers III for TOE RE: Military Link Webpage Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Alternative Fuels Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Different eras Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Soviet Bloc Allegiences Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Soviet Bloc Allegiences Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Severely OT, but while we're on the topic- McDonald's and Kangaroo meat- yum... Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #108 Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #108 Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. SV: Severely OT, but while we're on the topic- McDonald's and Kangaroo meat- yum... SV: vehicle conversions (rant) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 13:56:40 -0600 From: "Kevin O'Dell" Subject: RE: Military Link Webpage On Thursday, March 02, 2000 3:46 PM, Jim & Peta Lawrie [SMTP:jimpeta@primus.com.au] wrote: > > >Haggi is probably the more grammatically correct term for the plural of > >Haggis. A Haggis is a small 6 legged creature that lives in the wilds of > >Scotland. These creatures are often hunted and cooked on special > occassions > >(such as Burns Night) There are two varieties a lesser spotted and a > greater > >spotted type. > > > >I hope this answers your question. (Of course you believe me don't you > ;-)) > > The weapons used in hunting Haggis are strictly regulated, my dad always > averred that only a three prong pitchfork was permitted. Still, rumours > abound of the feared Haggis Gun used by Haggis Poachers, although who could > eat poached haggis is a mystery. > Jim > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. Let me guess....... It taste like chicken right? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 17:13:37 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Military Link Webpage At 05:31 PM 3/3/00 +0800, Ballistix wrote: >PS: Dropbears (see web page address) are an Australian animal. They >acn actually be quite viscous. The only way that you can only keep them >away from you is with the use of vegimite. Just smear a layer on the tips >of your ears the keep them away. > Do they eat 100% pure beef? :) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:14:20 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG In a message dated 03/01/2000 9:52:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, ronhale@c-zone.net writes: << Not to mention it is the simplest game in the world. Its great for a change of pace. You can make a PC in about 3 minutes, there only 3 stats and you generate them by rolling straight Percentiles. for skills you pick them and roll percentiles to get your skill level. Ron Hale >> Yo Ron, Are you talking about the first edition of Recon by RPG Inc? I can't recall anything by Palladium having only 3 stats and being the simplest game in the world. I'm looking at my copy of 1st ed. copy of Recon and it has three stats, Strength, Alertness and Agility. It was a damn simple game to learn and run. Fun too. Of course I could be wrong, I don't have the Palladium version of Recon, saw it and put it back with the rest of the Palladium munchie junk...I mean Rifts stuff. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:20:15 EST From: CMarkChester@aol.com Subject: Re: Military Link Webpage Actually the Greater Spotted Variety tastes like Chicken. The lesser spotted tastes like Beef!! However the flavours vary depending on what the Haggis eats!! (God I could go on like this for hours you know :-)) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a medical name for it!" "Yes it's called cowardice" (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:25:41 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Wiberg Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG > Yo Ron, > > Are you talking about the first edition of Recon by RPG Inc? I can't recall > anything by Palladium having only 3 stats and being the simplest game in the > world. I'm looking at my copy of 1st ed. copy of Recon and it has three > stats, Strength, Alertness and Agility. It was a damn simple game to learn > and run. Fun too. > > Of course I could be wrong, I don't have the Palladium version of Recon, saw > it and put it back with the rest of the Palladium munchie junk...I mean Rifts > stuff. > As I recall, it was indeed a Pallidium game. Back in Junior high a couple friends had it....this was during our Pallidium phase too. Sad but true :) Ray *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:32:37 EST From: CMarkChester@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Sorry!! You're wrong there!! Recon (and the later Revised Recon) were produced by Palladium in the late 80's (I've got a copy of Recon and the supplement Advanced Recon) It was designed completely outwith Palladium's usual "Multiverse" Games (such as Rifts, Robotech, TMNT and the rest!!) for reasons that the Characters had to be designed to be created within minutes because, after a few rounds of gunfire the Characters had the unfortunate tendancy to die rather quickly!! It was by and large forgotten by Palladium (although I have heard that they are doing/ have done ?? a remake of the rules, probably fitting in more with the rules to RIFTS and the rest!!) since the rules didn't fit in with their standard. However it was what you could call a cheap and cheerful game, which usually filled out a couple of hours. (If my scanner was working I would have scanned the front cover of Recon to show you!!) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a medical name for it!" "Yes it's called cowardice" (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:33:35 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Using Steel Panthers III for TOE In a message dated 03/02/2000 11:42:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, copeab@hotmail.com writes: << The computer game Steel Panthers III lists men and equipment for many nations at battalion level and lower. It differs a bit from the TOE given in the T2K vehicle guides, but does list the number of men to a platoon and heavy weapon teams (MGs, mortars and AT rockets) assigned to units.>> I tend to think the TOE's given from T2k were a bit theoretical. Well, actually, they had to be to account for certain weapons systems that were under development but never came to fruition for a variety of reasons. Heck, the TOE's differ from the ones in Combined Arms which was written by Frank Chadwick and published by GDW! But yes, Steel Panthers III does give info on units and equipment, so does SPII which was geared towards the platoon scale. <> That depends on what army and formation (armor, mech, infantry, etc). Orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:33:55 -0600 From: "Kevin O'Dell" Subject: RE: Military Link Webpage On Thursday, March 02, 2000 4:20 PM, CMarkChester@aol.com [SMTP:CMarkChester@aol.com] wrote: > Actually the Greater Spotted Variety tastes like Chicken. The lesser spotted > tastes like Beef!! However the flavours vary depending on what the Haggis > eats!! (God I could go on like this for hours you know :-)) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------------- > "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a > medical name for it!" > "Yes it's called cowardice" > (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------------------- > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. Did you ever watch Matrix? They had an explanation in there why everything tasted like chicken. It was pretty funny. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:41:09 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG In a message dated 03/02/2000 2:27:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, ray@cloudfactory.org writes: << As I recall, it was indeed a Pallidium game. Back in Junior high a couple friends had it....this was during our Pallidium phase too. Sad but true :) Ray >> Yes I know it is a Palladium game, but does it have 3 stats? I'm looking at my First Edition Recon by RPG games copyright 1982. It has a black cover, crude b/w drawings inside, the aforementioned 3 stats generated by percentile dice. All I know is that several years later, Palladium produced a version of Recon using their own game system but keeping the same ideas and theme. I'm guessing they bought the copyright and actually DID SOMETHING WITH IT. (Unlike some other game companies we know.) =) orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 17:49:53 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG In a message dated 03/02/2000 2:36:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, CMarkChester@aol.com writes: << Sorry!! You're wrong there!! Recon (and the later Revised Recon) were produced by Palladium in the late 80's (I've got a copy of Recon and the supplement Advanced Recon) It was designed completely outwith Palladium's usual "Multiverse" Games (such as Rifts, Robotech, TMNT and the rest!!) for reasons that the Characters had to be designed to be created within minutes because, after a few rounds of gunfire the Characters had the unfortunate tendancy to die rather quickly!! It was by and large forgotten by Palladium (although I have heard that they are doing/ have done ?? a remake of the rules, probably fitting in more with the rules to RIFTS and the rest!!) since the rules didn't fit in with their standard. However it was what you could call a cheap and cheerful game, which usually filled out a couple of hours. (If my scanner was working I would have scanned the front cover of Recon to show you!!) >> I'm holding my copy of Recon by RPGInc copyright 1982 by Joe F. Martin. Like I said earlier, black cover, not the ugly color cover of the Palladium version. Anyways, does the Palladium version have only 3 stats? Like I also said, I'm guessing Palladium bought the rights to the 1982 game and produced it on their own. I don't know if they use the same system or not. The 1982 game dealt solely with 'Nam era SOF (LRRP, Force Recon, SEALS, SOG and even the controversial Phoenix program). There was also a short chapter on post 'Nam merc missions. Either way, sounds like both versions were fun games. Then again, maybe I'm dating myself....=) orrin *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:38:36 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Alternative Fuels I beleive Mickydee prefers soymeal to meat:) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:01:12 EST From: CMarkChester@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Well I don't know where you got your information from but look at my previous post. Palladium must have bought the game (which I didn't know, but there you go :-)) and KEPT the original rules!! If you hang around a sec I'll have a look for my rules and give you the details (Sounds of grunting, and several ton of books falling down :-)) Right details time - This is the Third Printing 1988. Apparently Kevin Siembieda owns the WHOLE copyright to the game. There are no references to ANY other game company there whatsoever. Now for the rules (This is a quick, cut down version since my scanners knackered!!) CREATING A CHARACTER MAJOR CHARACTRISTICS The first step in creating a character for RECON is to determine the three major characteristics: Strength(ST), Alertness (AL) and Agility (AG). Roll percentile dice and record the result for each. Characters whose combined rolls (ST+AL+AG) are less than 100, or those with any roll under 30, even if the total score is over 100, can be declared 4-F. Players with 4-F characters may reroll the ENTIRE character. Of course, if the player likes a partiular 4-F character he's free to use him. So there you go. Either Palladium bought the rights completely (and steamrollered the other company in the process) or Kevin Siembieda wrote the game using the original Game as a base. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a medical name for it!" "Yes it's called cowardice" (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:48:27 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Different eras Yep Adv Recon scenario for central America is not too bad. The countries a "alias" but no too hard to figure out who's who. I ran an "advisory" team campaign with T2K characters using the centeral America recon background.. Wasn't too bad, but the PC's found out "advisory" duties can be hairy to say the least. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 18:10:05 EST From: CMarkChester@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG **** this is bloody creepy!!! The RPGInc version sounds hellishly like the Palladium Version. As far as I can understand from your message everything that is in the RPGInc version is in the Palladium version (even down to the Post-Nam era Merc Games, and the LRRP emphasis) This is weird!! Like I said there is absolutely no reference to the RPGInc version whatsoever in the actual game!! Something smells like plagiarism to me!! ("I committed a sin Father. I committed Plagiarism" "Did you do it alone or with others?" :-) (excerpted from Catholic Boys)) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a medical name for it!" "Yes it's called cowardice" (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 18:22:45 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Soviet Bloc Allegiences At 10:01 PM 3/2/00 -0000, Mark Oliver wrote: ><<< As someone who studies Poland, this doesn't ring true with me: >>> > >That's presumeably Poland as it is now. The T2K background has a Poland >under communist rule with the public being fed the appropriate propoganda. > ><<< at themoment at least, the Poles are a lot more scared of the Russians >than of the Germans. >>> > >Again I point to the situation that the game designers created. The world >as it is now hardly seemed possible 15 or 20 years ago. > As I pointed out before, this was equally true in 1970 or 1980--it's not just a feature of post-Communist Poland; in fact, it goes back at least to the 1950's. >The Poles are "used" to being "friends" with the Russians, it's the Status >quo. Suddenly Germany renunites using military force and the situation >changes very rapidly. During unpredictable times it's easy for old fears >and stereotypes to come into play. Some of this may even have been egged on >a bit by some Soviet Propoganda feeding the publics nightmares of a return >of the Germans. I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine this happening anywhere in Eastern Europe after 1968--it was in 1968, with the invasion of Czechoslovakia (if not 1956, with the invasion of Hungary) that it became blatantly obvious to everyone that the Soviets were not "friends" but an occupying power. I simply cannot imagine an occupied country like Poland demanding that the occupier "save" them from a country (like a re-united Germany) that isn't even providing a direct threat. When you've already lost your indepedence to one power, and that power is still occupying you, you don't go around worrying about losing the independence you don't have to a second power that may or may not be hostile. > >Remember since WW2 the Soviets have been portrayed as the liberators of >Poland. While that may not totally remove the fear and hatred that the >Poles have for them it make make them a tenable ally in the fight against >the Germans. > No, actually, the Soviets weren't truly portrayed as liberators in the last few decades--the textbooks said that, but no one believed it, partly because there was a subtext in certain events (for example, the Warsaw Uprising seemed to be about the Germans, so you could talk about it in the textbooks, but it was really about Soviet betrayal of the Polish resistance fighters), and partly because the teachers told the students that the Soviets were the real enemy. Indeed, in the Polish case, I'm not sure the bulk of the population _ever_ saw the Soviets as liberators. This began in 1939 with the Soviet occupation of eastern Poland and the Katyn massacre. It contined witr the failure to aid the Warsaw Uprising--which made it clear that the Soviets were mainly interested in dominating Poland, not in liberation Poland--had they been interested in liberation, they would have aided the Uprising. And the fact that the Soviets were an occupying power became blatantly obvious when they decided to keep the eastern provinces of the country, uprooting millions of Poles in order to shift the country's borders several hundred miles to the West. In some countries, like Czechoslovakia, the Soviets were genuinely regarded as liberators by most of the population for many years, but it's hard to make the same case for Poland. >Remember once again this is not the Poles fighting for the Russians but the >Poles fighting with the Russians against the Germans. I'm sure that the >background notes in the v1 game even make a point of people being surprised >how much of a fight the Poles put up. > ><<< shortly after the Soviet invasion, several thousand Polish leaders >(officers, politicians, professionals, cadets) in the eastern part of the >country were rounded up, executed, and dumped in an unmarked mass grave. >The Soviet Union denied that the incident had ever occurred (or blamed it on >the Nazis) until just a few years ago. >>> > >They blamed it on the Nazis. They built a great big memorial on the site of >the massacre, it certainly wasn't "denied" as such it just had the blame >diverted. Also note that the truth about what happened didn't really come >up until after fall of the Soviet Union. To the bulk of the Poles that >Germans were still the guilty party. It wasn't such an unsubstantiated >belief either given the other well publicised activites of the German armed >forces. AFAIK, this isn't true; the Poles knew all along. Think about this for a minute: the massacre took place in 1939 in territory that wasn't controlled by the Nazis--to blame it on the Nazis you have to move the massacre to 1941 or later, which would be a feat for even the Soviet propaganda machine. > ><<< The upshot is that, by this time, the Poles regard the more recent >enemy, the Russians, as the real enemy--the Germans are democratic, rich, >and willing to welcome them into the European Union. >>> > >This isn't the Germany that we know today it would have been a Germany >united again under military force. > The Germany in TW:2000 v. 1 wasn't united "under military force"; the union was arranged by the militaries, but the government was controlled by the (democratic) constitution of West Germany. >The Soviets may well have been viewed as a long term and persistant enemy >who the Poles wanted rid off. The Germans however suddenly appear again as >a threat rising, one that could possibly be snipped in the bud now. Once >the Poles deal with that issue then maybe they'll be better placed to deal >with the longer term problem of the Russians. Again, I can't see turning one's attention from a real and present occupier to a potential and largely imaginary threat. I realize that when they wrote the game, the designers thought that Poland was a lot closer to the Soviet Union and further from Germany than it really was at the time they were writing--but the information about Polish political culture that we know now wasn't nearly as widespread back then. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 11:32:58 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG >(If my scanner was working I would have scanned the front cover of Recon to >show you!!) A singularly bad piece of artwork though, the nets better off without it. Don't forget, even mentioning 'Palladium', 'Rift's', 'Kevin-too-many-exclamation-marks-to-be-entirely-sane-Sembieda' and probably 'Munchkin' is going to get you a visit from Those Peoples (tm) lawyers. They're famous for persecuting people who dare to use the holy name that they scammed of an element. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 16:47:34 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Soviet Bloc Allegiences Mark Oliver wrote: > <<< As someone who studies Poland, this doesn't ring true with me: >>> > > That's presumeably Poland as it is now. The T2K background has a Poland > under communist rule with the public being fed the appropriate propoganda. > > <<< at themoment at least, the Poles are a lot more scared of the Russians > than of the Germans. >>> > > Again I point to the situation that the game designers created. The world > as it is now hardly seemed possible 15 or 20 years ago. > > The Poles are "used" to being "friends" with the Russians, it's the Status > quo. Suddenly Germany renunites using military force and the situation > changes very rapidly. During unpredictable times it's easy for old fears > and stereotypes to come into play. Some of this may even have been egged on > a bit by some Soviet Propoganda feeding the publics nightmares of a return > of the Germans. Sure they would try to scare people with the threat of german invasion; but the moment the soviets propose moving into poland people would freak too. you have to remember that during martial law everyone was afraid the soviet army was massing on the border. > > Remember since WW2 the Soviets have been portrayed as the liberators of > Poland. While that may not totally remove the fear and hatred that the > Poles have for them it make make them a tenable ally in the fight against > the Germans. Just because they may be portrayed as that by authorities doesn't mean anyone believes it. > Remember once again this is not the Poles fighting for the Russians but the > Poles fighting with the Russians against the Germans. I'm sure that the > background notes in the v1 game even make a point of people being surprised > how much of a fight the Poles put up. Perhaps the Russians would be better off allowing the Germans to invade then attacking them for this. The german army will be worn down and weakend after crossing the entire country (i dont think they would get stopped by the crap the polish military has heh) > <<< shortly after the Soviet invasion, several thousand Polish leaders > (officers, politicians, professionals, cadets) in the eastern part of the > country were rounded up, executed, and dumped in an unmarked mass grave. > The Soviet Union denied that the incident had ever occurred (or blamed it on > the Nazis) until just a few years ago. >>> > > This isn't the Germany that we know today it would have been a Germany > united again under military force. Yes it is a made up world. So I guess anything could happen. But this thred is attempting to fit the timeline more to the real world. > The Soviets may well have been viewed as a long term and persistant enemy > who the Poles wanted rid off. The Germans however suddenly appear again as > a threat rising, one that could possibly be snipped in the bud now. Once > the Poles deal with that issue then maybe they'll be better placed to deal > with the longer term problem of the Russians. Either way people are screwed; during WWII if you were captured you'd end up either in a german camp or a russian camp; both places you were likely to die, but you could actually bribe the russians. so from that lesser of two evils point of view helping the russians might be better i suppose. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 19:48:04 EST From: Corkman321@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG In a message dated 3/2/00 3:14:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, CMarkChester@aol.com writes: > The RPGInc version sounds hellishly like the > Palladium Version. As far as I can understand from your message everything > that is in the RPGInc version is in the Palladium version (even down to the > Post-Nam era Merc Games, and the LRRP emphasis) This is weird!! Like I > said > there is absolutely no reference to the RPGInc version whatsoever in the > actual game!! Something smells like plagiarism to me!! In the back of the RPG INC. rulebook, there is a listing of other titles available for the Recon game (Miniatures, modules, etc.). One of the items is a listing for an item called 'San Succi' which gives floorplans for a small city and about a 16 block radius. I've just recently acquired this item from an auction and it is im- pressive for a role-playing aid. Back to the point, the Palladium version seemed to expand this by creating a whole Mercenary campaign around this area. It is detailed to some extent, but, the info from both supplements (Palladium & RPG Inc.), seems to complete each other. It would seem that the rights were brought up by Palladium or else I could see some major plagiarism issues here. John O'Koren "A man's got to know his limitations." Inspector Harry Callahan *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 00:54:32 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Severely OT, but while we're on the topic- McDonald's and Kangaroo meat- yum... I think everyone is missing the point here.... THERE IS NOT MEAT IN McD's COS IT'S NOT A FOOD GROUP :) Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:00:59 EST From: CMarkChester@aol.com Subject: Re: Different eras-Recon RPG Oh well. In that case, anybody care to take up the case for the Defence. (Is there a Lawyer in the House :-)) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- "I can't go in there. I have a problem with confined spaces. Theres a medical name for it!" "Yes it's called cowardice" (Villa talking to Jenna - Blake's 7) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - ----------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:20:51 EST From: Damage169@cs.com Subject: Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. I just got to thinking about all the various places McDonald's has gotten itself into nowadays (Moscow, Peking, even Iran, IIRC) and I wondered about the type of "meat" they serve in their hamburgers in India. The majority of the population reveres cows for some reason and get very irked if anyone suggests eating them. How does McDonald's (or any other Western fast-food chain) go about dealing with this? Addit.: A year or so ago, I read a small article in the paper where the distribution of Pepsi throughout the entire nation of France was almost controlled by Coca-Cola. It happened like this: Pepsi entered into a distribution agreement with the French company Orangina (I think that was the name) due to a French law apparently requiring a local company to control distribution of imported beverages and other foodstuffs. No problem. Everybody's happy making money. Then Coca-Cola buys Orangina. Problem. BIG Mucking Problem. "Can you say Monopoly? I knew you could." Pepsi goes running to the French courts to get their distribution contract canceled. No Joy. They go running to the EC business court system, or whatever it's called, and finally get the contract voided, but it was a near run thing. Funny, no? Simon Jester *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:39:29 EST From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #108 In a message dated 00-03-02 17:09:02 EST, you write: << Does anyone know of an online version of the T2K rules or are they still covered by copyright laws even though they are no longer published >> "no longer published" has nothing to do with whether something is still covered by copyright. LKW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 20:39:30 EST From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #108 In a message dated 00-03-02 17:09:02 EST, you write: << McDonalds also runs a guarantee (or at least they used to- haven't checked recently) of 100% pure ground beef. However, that is very loose phraseology. Because "beef" consists of "any meat coming from a cow". >> The FDA has some regulations on this subject. Ground beef has a specific definition, and I don't think it is "Anything from a cow." Why do you think MacDs isn't allowed to call their "shakes" "milkshakes?" There was a place that used to serve a sandwich called a "Yumbo" that they would have _loved_ to call a "ham and cheese" sandwich if only some Federal spoilsport had let them. LKW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2000 20:54:36 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Severely OT....McDonald's Etc. At 08:20 PM 3/2/00 EST, Damage169@cs.com wrote: >I just got to thinking about all the various places McDonald's has gotten >itself into nowadays (Moscow, Peking, even Iran, IIRC) and I wondered about >the type of "meat" they serve in their hamburgers in India. The majority of >the population reveres cows for some reason and get very irked if anyone >suggests eating them. How does McDonald's (or any other Western fast-food >chain) go about dealing with this? > They make local adaptation to their menus; I think I heard once that they have a strong vegetarian menu in India, but I'm not sure. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 01:15:51 +0100 From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" Subject: SV: Severely OT, but while we're on the topic- McDonald's and Kangaroo meat- yum... >Ray Wiberg > >> McDonalds also runs a guarantee (or at least they used to- haven't checked >> recently) of 100% pure ground beef. However, that is very loose phraseology. >> Because "beef" consists of "any meat coming from a cow". >> >> Here in Australia they use 100% Australian Beef for there Hamburgers, now what >> they don't tell people is that 100% Australian Beef is the name of the company >> that makes the meat. What goes into it is anybodies guess but I sure it isn't >> all beef, probably alot of mutton in it as well as roo etc. I wouldn't be >> surprised at what's in the stuff. >> >This sounds suspiciously like the "100% Pure Beef" (as a name of a >company) legend which runs around in North American vegetarian circles. > >Has anybody seen the myth about the genetically altered, tube feed, >beakless, featherless, chickens KFC raises? You can't believe everything >you read or hear. ;) > >When you think about it, a "secret" practice like altering the actual >makeup of meat products on that level (I'm talking about substitution >when people think they are consuming something entirely >different...not hormone or steriod treatment which is legal and >accepted by the FDA in the US) would be crushing for a food >franchise...especially these days when there is so much media and public >attention turreted on these companies. It is illogical that they would >engage in such practices, as it has the potential to cause more financial >harm then profit. The 'food' served at McDonalds would in itself be a cause for suspecting such practices. I still find the burgers' taste there reminiscent of cardboard; given a choice, I would have to select Burger King as the lesser of two evils. Nobody I know believe that McD serves food! ;D > >I have however seen the accepted levels of contamination of foods for the >FDA...molds, insects, droppings, etc. Since food production *cannot* be >sterile, there has to be some contamination. > >Food for thought. > >Ray You're not a McDonalds employee, by any chance, Ray? Carl Roger Nilsen "Never overlook something that seems to be simple" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2000 02:48:40 +0100 From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" Subject: SV: vehicle conversions (rant) >>>So there is no set formula for converting the thickness of the armor to >>>game stats? >> >>I think 5mm of steel = 1 point of armor, from a table on the protection of >>various covers. > >Yes, this is right, but I'm pretty sure you have to work out what the >armour thickness is -in the horizontal- to get the right number. So if a >vehicle has front turret armour consisting of 25mm of plate at an angle of >30 degrees then this is actually 25mm/cos(30) = 29mm of horizontal armour, >so approx armour value of 6. Consulting The Book of Armaments Construction (Fire, Fusion & Steel) Book 2: Subsystems, Chapter 1: Material Technology, pg 38: So sayeth the Holy Vehicle and Craft Construction Materials Table: [Includeth in brackets are alternate materials by Edward Fok efok@ni.net of the Electrophysics Department of the University of South Carolina, dated 19950331021206PST, found at location http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/alt_materials.html (note ye, that Futuristic/Theoretical are items of TL9+ (Y2k+)] (In order Lowest to Highest Toughness) (Toughness*thickness(cm)=Armor Value) (Mass=tonnes (1,000kg's) per cubic meter of material) Fiberglass, Toughness 0.25, Mass 1 [Glass Composite, Toughness 0.75, Mass 1.9; Fiberglass] [Aluminum Alloy, Toughness 1, Mass 2.7] [Improved Aluminum Alloy, Toughness 1.1, Mass 2.6] [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Aluminum Lithium Alloy, Toughness 1.1, Mass 2.4; Spray deposition alloy] [Metallic Laminate, Toughness 1.2, Mass 3.6; Structure composed of combination of Aluminum, Titanium and Steel] Iron, Toughness 1.5, Mass 8 [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Metal Matrix Composite, Toughness 1.6, Mass 2.6; 2-D graphite reinforced Aluminum alloy] Soft Steel, Toughness 1.7, Mass 8 [7.8] Light Alloy, Toughness 1.7, Mass 6 [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Advanced Metallic Laminate, Toughness 1.8, Mass 4; High proportion of Titanium in compound material structure] Hard Steel, Toughness 2, Mass 8 [7.8] [Super Steel Alloy, Toughness 2.5, Mass 7.8; Inconel, Hastalloy, etc.] [Titanium Alloy, Toughness 2.5, Mass 4.9] [Advanced Titanium Alloy, Toughness 2.6, Mass 4.7; Beta phase Titanium alloys] Titanium Alloy, Toughness 3, Mass 8 [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Ceramic Laminated Composite (CLC), Toughness 3.6, Mass 1.8; Layered graphite composite and ceramic sheets] Light Composite, Toughness 4, Mass 7 Know then, that these LC's representeth a variety of additional nonmetallic structural materials, such as graphite, boron-carbide, etc. [Graphite Composite, Toughness 5, Mass 2.1; 2-D weaved graphite sheets] Composite Laminate, Toughness 6, Mass 8 Know then, that these are matrices of different metallic and nonmetallic materials arrangethed to make the most of each material's strengths, including the mesh of depleted uranium in the composite armor usethed by certain US MBTs. [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Laminated Composite, Toughness 6.25, Mass 2.4125; 2-D graphite laminate] [(Futuristic/Theoretical) Boron Composite, Toughness 7, Mass 2; 2-D weaved boron filament sheets] [Metalic Laminate, Toughness 7.75, Mass 11.13; Uranium reinforced armor] The next step in armor according to the table is Crystaliron, Toughness 8, Mass 10, which is a ferrous metal with perfect crystal structure and carefully controlled impurities in order to gain maximum hardness and toughness, but this is way ahead in the future, according to GDW canon. So sayeth the Holy Construction Materials Table: Loose Dirt, Toughness 0.04 Stone, Packed Dirt, Toughness 0.2 Wood, Toughness 0.2 Masonry (not necessarily Masonic Lodge members, but you'lst never knowest), Toughness 0.3 So sayeth the Holy Common Forms of Cover Table: Sandbag (Thickness 25cm), AV1 2" Wooden Plank (5cm), AV1 Timber House Wall (20cm), AV 4 Cinder Block Wall (30cm), AV9 Stone Wall (30cm), AV6 Thick Stone Wall (60cm), AV12 Reinforced Concrete (25cm), AV10 Tree Trunk (60cm), AV12 Brick Wall (10cm), AV3 Thick Brick Wall (30cm), AV9 Thick D**k Wall (not thick enough), AV0 ]:-# Thick Penguin Wall (40cm), AV2 Consulting the Book of Armaments Construction, Book 1: Major Systems, Chapter 2: Ground Vehicle Design, pg 18: Moderate slope (30 degrees) increases effective AV of a face by 50 percent. Radical slope (60 degrees) increases effective AV of a face by 100 percent. Sloping armor doth not add to either the weight or price of the vehicle, but does subtract from its volume. Front or rear: Moderate -10 percent, Radical -20 percent. Sides (both): Moderate -20 percent, Radical -40 percent. Under: N/A, the vehicle would look too stupid. Top: N/A, the vehicle would in addition to looking stupid, not be able to enter tunnels. Fire, Fusion and Steel, though clogged with errata, is about the best investment money can buy (for GDW games). It's an essential 2nd-hand pickup. Anyway, I'll be posting some kewl guns very soon. Here endeth the lesson. Amen CRN self-appointed pope Pungenday, day 62 of Chaos, YOLD: 3166 (chouse) 221:03:02 (1) "Never overlook something that seems to be simple" http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/nosepicking.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #109 *************************************