twilight2000-digest Tuesday, February 29 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 103 The following topics are covered in this digest: Quick and dirty formula Re: Politics stuffs Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Booze Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Re: Quick and dirty formula Re: Politics stuffs Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. Beer extremely OT at this point Re: Booze Re: Beer extremely OT at this point Re: Quick and dirty formula Re: Quick and dirty formula Re: Beer extremely OT at this point Re: Quick and dirty formula Re: Beer back on topic :) Different eras Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Beer back on topic :) Re: Different eras ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:52:13 +0100 From: "Carl Roger Nilsen" Subject: Quick and dirty formula > Whew! That explains a lot. I was busting my brain trying to remember >that old >quick and dirty formula for converting celsius to farhenheit and just >couldn't >remember it. Not too hard. To get C: Subtract 32 from F, and divide by 1.8 To get F: Multiply C by 1.8, and add 32 Carl Roger Nilsen "Never overlook something that seems to be simple" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:06:02 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Politics stuffs At 01:20 AM 2/28/00 -0800, Jesse LaBranche wrote: >> At 11:52 PM 2/27/00 -0800, Jesse LaBranche wrote: >> With all due respect, the whole idea of democracy is that military and >> police have to be watched over by politicians, lest they use their power >to >> abuse people. >> Scott Orr > >Hey Scott, > > That is one of the few statements that I have ever seen that I agree and >disagree with completely at the same time :-) Without politicians at all, we >do see the abuse of power that you speak of. However, what do we use in >our democracy to see that politicians do not overstep their bounds? Your vote. In a non-democracy, you have nothing. > My answer to that question would be: It is supposed to be the citizens >of >this country. However, that power has been stripped by those which we are >supposed to be watching- unfortunately, that is an answer that will >generally >draw much debate and probably off-topic discussion... > You've still got your vote, and access to all the information need to use it. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:28:36 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. RE: Drinking age.. Rest assured during Vietnam the legal age in most states was NOT 18. You could only get a drink on post in states with 21 as min age. Use to PMO for all the obvious reasons.. Ages were dropped in many states after the 18yo voting law, but many have gone back up and the younger voters actually endoreded in in many areas. It should be noted that drinking and cold weather do not go well together either. The alcohol gives the person a false sense of wamth. It dialates the blood vessel and speed up body core cooling. ===== FORD Rangers! Lead the Way!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 17:01:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Wiberg Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. In some states however you could (possibly still can) get near beer at 18. It was half strength beer, and my pop said it was a stupid law due to the fact that everyone just drank twice as much to get ripped. I don't think this had anything to do with the police action though. Ray On Mon, 28 Feb 2000, GRAEBARDE wrote: > RE: Drinking age.. Rest assured during Vietnam the legal > age in most states was NOT 18. You could only get a drink > on post in states with 21 as min age. Use to PMO for all > the obvious reasons.. Ages were dropped in many states > after the 18yo voting law, but many have gone back up and > the younger voters actually endoreded in in many areas. > > It should be noted that drinking and cold weather do not go > well together either. The alcohol gives the person a false > sense of wamth. It dialates the blood vessel and speed up > body core cooling. > > ===== > FORD > > Rangers! Lead the Way!!! > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:44:23 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Booze A soldiers ability to get intoxicated was only hindered by the laws. There were always means by which the underage obtained alcohol... then and now. The "near" beer I was familiar with in the 60's had no alcohol. The beer in my home state was 5%, legal age 21. When I was in trade school the "place to go" for underage drinkers was South Dakota, legal age 18, beer was 3.2% (lite beer today).. You could get ripped, took longer and more trips to the john:) Or you could get a "bootlegger" to buy you some. We drank Canadian Malt that was cs 12%.. fewer beers to get blasted, fewer trips to the john. For GI's overseas drinking off post usually was never a problem.. Nam no prob except Mr Charles, Germany didn't have a minimum age I don't think. My Dad used to tell of the homemade hootch made druing WW2 by troops.. very potent, and "offically" frowned upon, but those who frowned the most got liquor rations! I suspect in T2K there is a "moderate" consumption of fuel grade alcohol, esp if it's ethanol. If it isn't ethanol, or has been denatured by mixing gasoline or something else, it can prove deadly. Methanol will make a person "blind" drunk literally. Something to consider when PC's consume alcohol. ===== FORD Rangers! Lead the Way!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:30:50 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. At 03:28 PM 2/28/00 -0800, GRAEBARDE wrote: >RE: Drinking age.. Rest assured during Vietnam the legal >age in most states was NOT 18. You could only get a drink >on post in states with 21 as min age. Use to PMO for all >the obvious reasons.. Ages were dropped in many states >after the 18yo voting law, but many have gone back up and >the younger voters actually endoreded in in many areas. > The drinking age has gone up because Congress required it as a condition for highway funds. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:10:43 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. > > Two things hit my mind while I was reading your potential scenarios. 1st > > off- thanks for the 18 million population figure. Any idea how large the > > Armed Forces are? and a breakdown of branches, occupations, etc. with > > full order of battle would be nice... > Ok lets see this is a quick fix, until I can get hold of some firmer > numbers. > Ballistix Thanks for the info Ballistix, I look forward to hearing more on this. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:12:00 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Quick and dirty formula > Not too hard. > To get C: Subtract 32 from F, and divide by 1.8 > To get F: Multiply C by 1.8, and add 32 > Carl Roger Nilsen That's even simpler than the one that I was trying to remember. Something like 5/9ths or some odd fractional figure. Thanks Carl. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:16:31 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Politics stuffs > Your vote. In a non-democracy, you have nothing. > Scott Orr Hey Scott, Just a quick note here. I am not saying that democracy isn't the best, just that there are things that need improved and "fixed". Of course, if there were more of us improving/fixing things and less of us throwing out the accusations such as I just did, and whining about "the problems in America" we would all probably be doing better... Maybe I should shut up now- I think I just shoved my foot in my own mouth, eh? :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:18:33 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. > It should be noted that drinking and cold weather do not go > well together either. The alcohol gives the person a false > sense of wamth. It dialates the blood vessel and speed up > body core cooling. > FORD Not to mention the slowed response time to react to sudden situations/changes that occur in "hostile" environments. Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:28:40 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: cold and extreme cold weather effects and stuff. > In some states however you could (possibly still can) get near beer at 18. > It was half strength beer, and my pop said it was a stupid law due to the > fact that everyone just drank twice as much to get ripped. I don't think > this had anything to do with the police action though. > Ray My experiences on this had American beers at 5% alcohol contents. "Near beer" was originally alcohol free. Later, it became the name for 3.2% beer (called: three two beer by most). This was legalized for drinking at the ages of 17, 18, or 19 in many states until Congress decided that they wanted the drinking age for everything to be 21 and threatened cuts in road funding to those who would not "go along" with it. At that time, I was living about 15 miles from the Wisconsin border and 19 was the normal age, 17 for near beer. That 15 mile stretch of highway had the nickname "blood border" and there were ALWAYS accidents along it on the weekends. When the states all hit the 21 age limit, it didn't matter whether it was "Real" or "Near" alcohol, and as far as I know- still doesn't, although I don't drink and am not in the alcohol industry any more so if something does change I probably won't know about it :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:47:48 -0800 (PST) From: Ray Wiberg Subject: Beer extremely OT at this point > My experiences on this had American beers at 5% alcohol contents. > "Near beer" was originally alcohol free. Later, it became the name for 3.2% > beer (called: three two beer by most). > This was legalized for drinking at the ages of 17, 18, or 19 in many > states > until Congress decided that they wanted the drinking age for everything to > be 21 and threatened cuts in road funding to those who would not "go along" > with it. > At that time, I was living about 15 miles from the Wisconsin border and > 19 > was the normal age, 17 for near beer. That 15 mile stretch of highway had > the nickname "blood border" and there were ALWAYS accidents along it on > the weekends. One of the things I like about my new home, Canada, is that you have to be 19 to buy tobacco, buy alcohol, or vote (pretty sure on the voting bit, but I never took a civics class up here, nor can I vote as a landed immigrant). So it's a nice even keel. 19 is the age to be up here. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 17:15:57 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Booze >I suspect in T2K there is a "moderate" consumption of fuel >grade alcohol, esp if it's ethanol. If it isn't ethanol, >or has been denatured by mixing gasoline or something else, >it can prove deadly. Methanol will make a person "blind" >drunk literally. Something to consider when PC's consume >alcohol. >===== >FORD My boss is not only a Surveyor, he's the manager and head thinker (I think he said that) at Tasmanian Distilleries. He said you not only must distill your hooch, but remove the 'fours'. I'm not a chemist so I'll leave a listmember to inform us of what that means. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:26:11 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Beer extremely OT at this point anyone ever try to make their own beer? i got a beer making kit a few years back as a christmas present, it's been turned into a dust collector. Yes, I know, a mortal sin, but I have my reasons. Anyways, since beer making is mentioned in T2k (Pirates of the Vistula, pg 30) I was wondering if anyone had any experience brewing beer and how much trade value it would have? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:35:55 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Quick and dirty formula At 09:12 PM 2/28/00 -0800, Jesse LaBranche wrote: >> Not too hard. >> To get C: Subtract 32 from F, and divide by 1.8 >> To get F: Multiply C by 1.8, and add 32 >> Carl Roger Nilsen > >That's even simpler than the one that I was trying to remember. >Something like 5/9ths or some odd fractional figure. >Thanks Carl. > Jesse, that _is_ the 5/9 formula :). (9/5=1.8) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:51:03 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Quick and dirty formula I remember in 8th grade, my science teacher told us a quick and dirty way to convert Centigrade to Fahrenheit is to "double the number and add 30." It may be off a degree or two but it's a quick way to get an idea if you're out driving around or whatever. Chuck DE KA3WRW - --- "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:12:27 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Beer extremely OT at this point Ah, the suttle art of turning mediocher grains into sublimal bliss!!!!!!!! I've had a little brewing experience. It's an art that I never perfected, but "most" of the batches were drinkable. Just make sure when you bottle the beer it's done ferminting or you'll have beer and bottles all over the place:) As for T2K, it's an excellent (IMO) way to turn the barley into a "trade good" and still have the mash/ brewers grains left for the stock. THe brewers grain (or distillers grain in the case of ethanol production.. really the same stuff as beer making is the first step before distilling) is high in protein as the starch is converted into sugar by enzymes, the sugar is consumed by the yeast which gives you alcohol.. [something to ponder on the next sip:):)]. The solids left are somewhere in the 30% protein range compares to about 5% for the original grain. Makes good hog and cattle feed, but you have to cook off the alcohol from the mash too or you get some drunken stock:) The quality of beer is in the ingredients used and the hops being considered the most important [too much = bitter, too little = sweet beer]. The malting process for the grain is also time consuming, and can be labor intensive. The malting process turns the starch to sugar. The grain is soaked in water and then allowed to sprout at which time it is dried. At least in commercial operations. Cottage industry brewing from scratch would probably not dry the malt, but could [makes for longer storage time] In T2K a surplus of grain not needed by the community would be a precursor for "trade beer". Value, depends on the demand.. probably in the ethanol range or a little less. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:48:50 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Quick and dirty formula > >That's even simpler than the one that I was trying to remember. > >Something like 5/9ths or some odd fractional figure. > >Thanks Carl. > Jesse, that _is_ the 5/9 formula :). (9/5=1.8) > Scott Orr Argh!!! I see what was going wrong... I was going x5/9 and /5/9... I just couldn't get the "dumb" calculator or computer to come out with ANY right answer... Jesse. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:54:27 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) Graebarde wrote: > In T2K a surplus of grain not needed by the community would > be a precursor for "trade beer". > Value, depends on the demand.. probably in the ethanol > range or a little less. Does anyone know what kind of alcohol % is coming out of the stills in the eq lists? Also, how does the % get modified? Is this by "re-distilling" it or something else? Are the rules on how long it takes to distill amounts needed, and such anywhere near accurate? I know that a buddy of mine at one point was brewing his own beers and an awesome mead. He kind of indicated that these numbers were way off but we were in the middle of the game at the time and didn't bother with elaboration- now, thinking about it, I am kind of curious. Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:02:44 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Different eras Hello All, I was thinking about running some "historical" scenarios using the T2k rules. Viet Nam, WW1, WW2, stuff like that. I was wondering if anyone else has done this. If so, what did you use/not use off of the equipment lists and what types of modifications did you need to make to the rules in general to allow for these games? I am currently trying to work out both a Viet Nam and a WW2 campaign for future use by the group. They've really expressed major interest in VN. I just don't have the knowledge about a lot of this equipment to set a date/war as to when it was created/distributed. Then there is a huge amount of equipment that has vanished from the arsenals over time as well. I thought it would be kind of cool to put a "dating system" into the equipment lists like "circa. 1945-1953" or maybe just naming the war, like say: "WW2 through Korea". Any thoughts, ideas, etc? In this same vein, I am wondering what kinds of "specialty" equipment, animals, or other such things people on the list have come up with- and would you mind posting them? Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com ICQ. 30334260 or 8004143 (backup) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:35:24 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) When I went back to college [twenty years after graduating from high school] I attended a community college the first year. One of the classes I took was an "alternative" fuels class as applicable to agriculture. We had a class project in the chemistry lab to distill alcohol from products brought from the farm. Since I wasn't actively farming at the time I brough a can of "instant" mashed potatoes. The others brought an assortment of ground grains: corn meal, rolled oats, ground barley, cracked wheat, etc. The first step was "mashing" the ingredients, adding water and enzymne and "cooking" the mash. [I don't remember the time specifics on each stage, but I'll dig out my old text if I can find it in the maze I call a library]. This speeds the conversion from starch to sugar. Second stage was adding a yeast to the mash. This set for a couple of days I think. It sets until it quits bubbling, the time varied with the ingredients I remember. It would also vary with the ambient temperature. Third stage was pouring off the "liquor" leaving the "fines" and distillers grains. Fourth stage was actually distillig the liquor. This process didn't take too long. THe heat was critical as you wanted to keep the water from steaming. I think the temp was about 165F 75C. The liquid that came out the tap was alcohol. The proofs varied again with the inital ingredient and the care taken when distilling the liquor. Or proofs ran as high as 185 on a single pass to a low of 90 proof ( 100 proof = 50 percent alcohol). Most commercial stills are "double thumpers" meaning they recycle the alcohol to get higher proofs out the tap. Without special equipment you'll never get 200 proof (100% alcohol) as alcohol absorbs water from the atmosphere. The higher the humidity, the lower the proof you'll get in the end and the atmosphere "waters down" your production. Keep in mind our experiment was done in a lab, so the still we used was "scientific" equipment. With proper construction the "field" still can get much the same results, but to get the higher proofs, redistillation would probably be needed. A rule of thumb (IMO) for a field still first run would be 90-120, unless equipment and conditons were very good.. it's in the HOG [gm]. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:55:28 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) Graebarde wrote: > Keep in mind our experiment was done in a lab, so the still > we used was "scientific" equipment. With proper > construction the "field" still can get much the same > results, but to get the higher proofs, redistillation would > probably be needed. A rule of thumb (IMO) for a field > still first run would be 90-120, unless equipment and > conditons were very good.. it's in the HOG [gm]. Hmm... I presume that the 90-120 is % not proof. Any idea how much increase occurs with redistillation? Also, how likely does it seem that any of the "stages" that you mentioned could be done while the characters are in motion? Thanks for the information- you explained the processes pretty well :-) Later. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com ICQ. 30334260 and 8004143 (backup) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:28:03 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) actually the 90-120 is proof (45-60% alcohol). redistillation would bring it up to higher levels. Remeber temperature control is the critical point in distillation all else being equal. Too high a temp gives you lower proofing as more water gets distilled in the process. YOu don't want water. The best proof you can hope to get in normal distillation, no matter how many redistills you do, is 190 proof (95%). Even the "pure" anhydrous ethanol used by chemists and phamacists will turn to 190 after they pop the cork... it absorbs humidity (water) from the air. as for processing on the go.. the mashing process, except for inital cooking, which can be bypassed with diminishing result, or increased time in fermentation, can be on the go. I imagine with ingenuity all the processes could be done on the go. large semitrailer with cookers, etc, be intersting to see. btw I've just been lurking another t2k forum and found some very interesting postings on alternative fuels. talk is about using vegetable oils for diesel substitute.. that was also covered in my alternative fuels class. They used sunflower oil from a crusher on the farm.. field to tractor.. they strained/filtered the oil before using it and got pretty good results, but the injectors wore more rapidly due to lack of proper lubrication, [remedy, mixing mineral oils with vegetable oil to provide the lubrication] Injector wear will be critical in any diesel running on alcohol.. the postings there were critical of alcohol use in diesel engines, and I tend to generally agree that alcohol isn't the fuel of choice. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 01:10:22 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) > Hmm... I presume that the 90-120 is % not proof. Any idea > how much increase occurs with redistillation? Hey, Jesse -- you did get it backwards. It is proof. You can't have something that's 120% alcohol. I'll think of that as a typographical transposition. Can't have anyone thinking us T2Kers are backwards or anything. Cor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:45:06 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) At 12:35 AM 2/29/00 -0800, GRAEBARDE wrote: >Fourth stage was actually distillig the liquor. This >process didn't take too long. THe heat was critical as you >wanted to keep the water from steaming. I think the temp >was about 165F 75C. The liquid that came out the tap was >alcohol. The proofs varied again with the inital >ingredient and the care taken when distilling the liquor. >Or proofs ran as high as 185 on a single pass to a low of >90 proof ( 100 proof = 50 percent alcohol). Most >commercial stills are "double thumpers" meaning they >recycle the alcohol to get higher proofs out the tap. >Without special equipment you'll never get 200 proof (100% >alcohol) as alcohol absorbs water from the atmosphere. The >higher the humidity, the lower the proof you'll get in the >end and the atmosphere "waters down" your production. > I was told by one chemistry teacher that 95% alcohol (that is, 190 proof) is about the best that can be done with ethanol. As you imply above, for any alcohol more pure than that, the process of distillation would put stuff back in (water I guess) rather than take it out--95% is the equilibrium position. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:48:39 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) At 01:28 AM 2/29/00 -0800, GRAEBARDE wrote: >btw I've just been lurking another t2k forum and found some >very interesting postings on alternative fuels. talk is >about using vegetable oils for diesel substitute.. that was >also covered in my alternative fuels class. They used >sunflower oil from a crusher on the farm.. field to >tractor.. they strained/filtered the oil before using it >and got pretty good results, but the injectors wore more >rapidly due to lack of proper lubrication, [remedy, mixing >mineral oils with vegetable oil to provide the lubrication] > >Injector wear will be critical in any diesel running on >alcohol.. the postings there were critical of alcohol use >in diesel engines, and I tend to generally agree that >alcohol isn't the fuel of choice. I imagine that in most cases the (real-world) farmer would come out better selling the agricultural products and buying diesel--ethanol and methanol fuels have never been economical to produce, even without the other considerations (mind you, in Europe, with high gas taxes, they may be economical). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:27:16 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) To be "economical" the cost of production must be less than the value received. Todays farmers have a hard time meeting that equation as they are "price takers" for waht they produce. [From my Agecon courses] Yes, purchasing is usually more economical due to the capital outlay in equipment needed to process the oil. It's not much processing really, crushing and filtering are all that really needs to be done to use vegetable oil. Vegetable oilseeds usually yield about 25-35% oil depending on the type [rapeseed, sunflower, soybean, cottonseed, flax]. Using sunflowers as an example, a good yield in the real world is probably around 2000 pounds per acre. The yield in oil from the crusher [if it's effecient] is about 30%. Simple math.. 600 pounds of oil per acre. A gallon of oil is about 8 pounds, so you yield is 75 gallons per acre. In a T2K, you can expect production to be much less, probably only 30% of current, if your lucky. Most oilseed crops are hybreds that don't breed true, so production will diminish with each generation IF you can get them to produce. So in T2K your oil yield is about 25 gallons per acre.. not much for the labor involved.. the acre of sunflowers would be better put to feed for draft animals (IMO) or man. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:31:56 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) > as for processing on the go.. the mashing process, except > for inital cooking, which can be bypassed with diminishing > result, or increased time in fermentation, can be on the > go. I imagine with ingenuity all the processes could be > done on the go. large semitrailer with cookers, etc, be > intersting to see. When I first got into T2k, we used to purchase a small still and a 1 ton trailer. The referees in general let us go ahead and process the alcohol but nobody really went into any detail on what had to be done or whether it was actually possible. We were all pretty much in agreement that it was at least theoretically possible. Although, it does seem that speeds and/or driving rolls should be affected by trailers. > btw I've just been lurking another t2k forum and found some > very interesting postings on alternative fuels. talk is > about using vegetable oils for diesel substitute.. that was > also covered in my alternative fuels class. They used > sunflower oil from a crusher on the farm.. field to > tractor.. they strained/filtered the oil before using it > and got pretty good results, but the injectors wore more > rapidly due to lack of proper lubrication, [remedy, mixing > mineral oils with vegetable oil to provide the lubrication] I was wondering how many "alternative" fuel sources people have done up. I know that we've played with steam, wind, and solar before. Then there was a player who designed an electric car, but it required more fuel to fuel the generator than it would have the car. I never did find out if that was due to failed rolls or if our Ref actually had some facts about electric cars though. Later. Jesse. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 02:34:18 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Re: Beer back on topic :) > > Hmm... I presume that the 90-120 is % not proof. Any idea > > how much increase occurs with redistillation? > Hey, Jesse -- you did get it backwards. It is proof. You can't have > something that's 120% alcohol. I'll think of that as a typographical > transposition. Can't have anyone thinking us T2Kers are backwards or > anything. > Cor Well, you know us Americans- always bass ackward ;-) Yeah, I transposed the % and proof there. Anyone sees anything at 120% purity- lemme know though, k? Later. Jesse. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:38:49 -0600 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: Different eras One of the guys in our group ran a lot of historical scenarios using T2k rules. We did short games set in all the major 20th century wars and even one set during the American Civil War. He used a combination of weapons and equipment from the existing T2k guides (Infantry Weapons of the World, the Heavy Weapons guide, and the various vehicle guides that covered stuff from those time periods). He also used the Fire, Fusion, and Steel guide from Traveller: TNE to make up some other stuff of his own. I think he used the "Guns! Guns! Guns!" books from BTRC as well. My favorites were the WW2 scenario that was basically a commando raid like the one in the movie "Where Eagles Dare", and the WW1 "Behind Enemy Lines" scenario where he had us in a situation similar to the "Escape From Kalisz" adventure except in 1915 Belgium. Most of the equipment in the GDW sourcebooks gives dates or a historical period, I think. I don't have them handy to verify that, but I think I'm right. - -Rob Jesse LaBranche wrote: > Hello All, > > I was thinking about running some "historical" scenarios > using the T2k rules. Viet Nam, WW1, WW2, stuff like that. I > was wondering if anyone else has done this. > If so, what did you use/not use off of the equipment lists > and what types of modifications did you need to make to the > rules in general to allow for these games? > I am currently trying to work out both a Viet Nam and a WW2 > campaign for future use by the group. They've really expressed > major interest in VN. > I just don't have the knowledge about a lot of this equipment > to set a date/war as to when it was created/distributed. Then > there is a huge amount of equipment that has vanished from the > arsenals over time as well. > I thought it would be kind of cool to put a "dating system" into > the equipment lists like "circa. 1945-1953" or maybe just naming > the war, like say: "WW2 through Korea". > Any thoughts, ideas, etc? > > In this same vein, I am wondering what kinds of "specialty" > equipment, animals, or other such things people on the list have > come up with- and would you mind posting them? > > Jesse. > vanquer@email.msn.com > ICQ. 30334260 or 8004143 (backup) > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #103 *************************************