twilight2000-digest Tuesday, February 22 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 095 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Sound-Powered Phones So which one are you-T2k style Re: Stupid Player Deaths PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Mitsubishi F-2 Re: PLA aircraft Saudi Pictures Soviet TOE OT: Re: Saudi Pictures - technical suggestions Re: Mitsubishi F-2 Re: Mitsubishi F-2 Re: PLA aircraft PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft Re: PLA aircraft RE: PLA aircraft Re: Mitsubishi F-2 Re: Mitsubishi F-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:46:18 EST From: Damage169@cs.com Subject: Re: Sound-Powered Phones In a message dated 2/18/00 8:21:36 AM Central Standard Time, owner-twilight2000-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes: << Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:26:47 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Sound Powered Phones > The telephones had a couple > mile range. > You could go farther if you yelled in the phone. These phones > are virtually > industrictible. In Arkansas we were in a lightning storm once > and lightning > hit one of our commo wires, shot straight into the TOC, > through the phone > and into the side of the head of the guy using it. It knocked > his butt off > the seat he was on, about 3 feet through the air to land in > the mud. He was > dizzy for about 10 minutes and the phone still worked fine. > Since he wasn't > really hurt, I can laugh about it and say it looked pretty > cool. That's why the USN still considers sound-powered phones their #1 method of communication within the ship during damage control situations. The telephones were too susceptable to power failures and damage to areas between you and DC Central. Same goes for the intercom system. Radios are pretty worthless when the ship is compartmentalized. That and flooding, smoke and fire effect them less than any other tool we had, and you can see why nothing beats the sound-powereds for harsh environments like that. Josh >> Another trick they taught us was, if the handpiece/microphone became damaged, it was possible to use one of the earpieces as a microphone, using the other earpiece to hear with. I actually had to do this during a timed DC drill, I didn't have time to get a replacement, so I did like they'd taught me. I actually got an 'atta'boy' comment from my department head put in my file. Doug Grimes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:33:36 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: So which one are you-T2k style Are you all familiar with that RPG list Real men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies and Munchkins by Sandy Petersen and Jeff Okomoto? http://noitacy.net/munchkin/ Here's one done with a T2k flavor... Which one are you, T2k style? by Josh Baumgartner TWILIGHT:2000 Favorite Service Branch: *Real Men* Marine Infantry *Real Roleplayers* Intel *Loonies* Space Command *Munchkins* Special Forces Preferred Infantry Squad Role: *Real Men* Play the Lifer Sarge *Real Roleplayers* Play the Draftee Literary Arts Student *Loonies* Play the Insane SAW Gunner *Munchkins* Play the Green Beret Colonel Favorite Main Battle Tank: *Real Men* Any will fit the bill as long as the main gun works *Real Roleplayers* Prefer less conspicuous vehicles *Loonies* Hum-Vee with spiked armor bolted on the front grill *Munchkins* M1A2 Abrams Favorite Light Armored Vehicle: *Real Men* M551 Sheridan *Real Roleplayers* Any French Wheeled Armored Car *Loonies* Hum-Vee with tire-shredders bolted on the hubs *Munchkins* M1A2 Abrams Favorite APC/IFV: *Real Men* LAV-25 (Hoo-Rah! Devil Dogs!) *Real Roleplayers* M113 (hey...it's a classic, you know?) *Loonies* VW Van *Munchkins* M1A2 Abrams Favorite Utility/Cargo Vehicle: *Real Men* Duece and a Half *Real Roleplayers* FAV *Loonies* U-Haul *Munchkins* M1A2 Abrams Favorite Artillery Piece: *Real Men* M198 155mm *Real Roleplayers* Whichever one isn't shooting at them *Loonies* Nuclear Mortar *Munchkins* M1A2 Abrams with MLRS rack modification Preferred Personal Weapon: *Real Men* M60 Machinegun *Real Roleplayers* Silenced MP-5 *Loonies* Pungee Sticks *Munchkins* Silenced Barret 50 cal, or barring that, an M1A2. Alcohol Fuel of Choice: *Real Men* Methanol *Real Roleplayers* Ethanol *Loonies* Jack Daniels *Munchkins* JP-5 Jet Fuel When low/out of ammo: *Real Men* Make their own ammo. *Real Roleplayers* Scrounge for ammunition on the Krakow black market *Loonies* Scrounge plutonium from a destroyed power plant. *Munchkins* Find enemy Corps supply dump, overun it, steal everything and carry it out in the cargo rack on the M1A2. Fuel Resupply: *Real Men* Run up to enemy vehicle, chuck grenade in, syphon fuel out after crew is killed *Real Roleplayers* Barter for alcohol with local farmers *Loonies* Piss in the gas tank (gotta drink enough Jack before hand for this to work properly) *Munchkins* See out of ammo. How to spend the Initial Equiptment Allotment: *Real Men* A good personal weapon and ammo, give the rest to the Real Roleplayer to figure out what to do with. *Real Roleplayers* Doesn't have enough military terms to have enough $$$ to worry about. *Loonies* Anything that's NOT on the list. *Munchkins* After 8 officer terms, he can afford everything on the list -- "How much is an F-16 again?" When Fighting at Night: *Real Men* Use recon by fire, and spot the muzzle flashes *Real Roleplayers* Crawl in a hole and futilely plead over the radio for pickup *Loonies* Nuke the enemy so they glow in the dark. *Munchkins* Use the F-16 LANTIRN pod he retrofitted to his M1A2 to target the enemy, then call in a Copperhead strike. Setting Ambushes: *Real Men* Charge out at the enemy column in the flank firing and whooping! *Real Roleplayers* Crack the enemy brigade net and call in their own artillery on them. *Loonies* Hide in the bushes and fart in the enemy's general direction. *Munchkins* Approach enemy column (dodge any shots at you), demand surrender, if they don't kill them with lethal SpecForces martial arts (lethal combination of all known fighting styles). Taking Prisoners: *Real Men* Strip their weapons, then send them back for the REMFs to deal with. *Real Roleplayers* Question them for information, perhaps convince them to switch sides. *Loonies* Insult them in a poor fake French accent. *Munchkins* Never heard of the concept. On Love in T2K: *Real Men* Maybe a sweetheart back home, maybe one in Poland, but that's not why they play Twilight! *Real Roleplayers* Fall in love with the captured, yet captivating Polish Cavalry Lt. *Loonies* Fall in love with the captured, not so captivating Polish Cavalry Lt.'s horse. *Munchkins* Wouldn't know love if it bit him on the ass. Loyalty: *Real Men* Unquestionable to the bitter end. *Real Roleplayers* Intense, yet constantly a matter of inner searching and confrontation. *Loonies* To his audience, or his next joke. *Munchkins* To whoever has better tanks. How to Escape from Kalisz: *Real Men* Fight their way out yard by yard, foot by foot, inch by inch. *Real Roleplayers* Bluff their way past the Krakow ORMO and steal the "magic carpet." *Loonies* Catch the next flight to Tahiti. *Munchkins* Take your platoon of M1A2s and crush those puny Soviets and their stupid little T-80s. The Great Goal: *Real Men* Victory *Real Roleplayers* Rebuild civilization using their Charisma and Persuasion skill to recruit engineers, technicians and scientists to their side *Loonies* Have fun while irradiating the planet *Munchkins* Get more stats & equipment *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:31:40 EST From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Re: Stupid Player Deaths In a message dated 2/18/00 10:22:01 AM, marko@syslogic.com writes: << Many years ago (back when we all were still playing D & D), I ran a game where I pitted two groups against each other. Several members of Group One came up with the idea of luring Group Two into a trap. You remember the Hand of Vecna and the Eye of Vecna that were artifacts in the old D&D world where if you cut off your hand (or your eye) and replaced it with the Hand of Vecna (or the Eye) you'd get new awesome powers? Well, Group One thought up The Head of Vecna. Group One spread rumors all over the countryside (even paying Bards to spread the word about this artifact rumored to exist nearby). They even went so far as to get a real head and place it under some weak traps to help with the illusion. Unfortunately, they forgot to let ALL the members of their group in on the secret plan (I suspect it was because they didn't want the Druid to get caught and tell the enemy about this trap of theirs, or maybe because they didn't want him messing with things). The Druid in group One heard about this new artifact and went off in search of it himself (I believe to help prove himself to the party members...) Well, after much trial and tribulation, he found it; deactivated (or set off) all the traps; and took his "prize" off into the woods for examination. He discovered that it did not radiate magic (a well known trait of artifacts) and smiled gleefully. I wasn't really worried since he was alone and I knew that there was no way he could CUT HIS OWN HEAD OFF. Alas I was mistaken as the Druid promptly summoned some carnivorous apes and instructed them to use his own scimitar and cut his head off (and of course quickly replacing it with the Head of Vecna...) Some time later, Group one decided to find the Druid and to check on the trap. They found the headless body (and the two heads) and realized that they had erred in their plan (besides laughing at the character who had played the Druid)...The Head of Vecna still had BOTH eyes! They corrected this mistake and reset their traps and the Head for it's real intended victims... Group Two, by this time, had heard of the powerful artifact and decided that it bore investigating since, if true, they could use it to destroy Group One. After much trial and tribulation, they found the resting place of The Head of Vecna! The were particularly impressed with the cunning traps surrounding the site (one almost missed his save against the weakest poison known to man). They recovered the Head and made off to a safe area. Group Two actually CAME TO BLOWS (several rounds of fighting) against each other argueing over WHO WOULD GET THEIR HEAD CUT OFF! Several greedy players had to be hurt and restrained before it was decided who would be the recipient of the great powers bestowed by the Head... The magician was selected and one of them promptly cut his head off. As the player was lifting The Head of Vecna to emplace it on it's new body, another argument broke out and they spent several minutes shouting and yelling. Then, finally, they put the Head onto the character. Well, of course, the Head simply fell off the lifeless body. All members of Group Two began yelling and screaming at each other (and at me) and then, on their own, decided that they had let too much time pass between cutting off the head of a hopeful recipient and put the Head of Vecna onto the body. SO THEY DID IT AGAIN!... [killing another PC] In closing, it should be said that I never even cracked a smile as all this was going on. After the second PC was slaughtered, I had to give in (my side was hurting)... And Group Two blamed ME [Mark] for all of that... >> I have to admit, I could have never kept a straight face through all of that. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:20:26 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: PLA aircraft Just finished reading "Future Wars" by Trevor Dupuy. An interesting book, IMHO. Anyways, one of the future conflicts is a war between Russia and China. He writes that the PLA Air Force has several types of western aircraft, notably AV-8A (listed as Q-7), simplified Tornado F-2 (J-9) and modified Mirage 2000 (F-10). Is this true or conjecture on his part? Anyone know of any other western military equipment used by the PLA? thanks *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:18:26 -0800 (PST) From: GRAEBARDE Subject: Re: PLA aircraft I thought I hear a few years back something about a verson of the F16, but maybe it was in a fiction I read. ===== F.O.R.D. Rangers! Lead the Way!!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:08:31 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: PLA aircraft In a message dated 02/21/2000 9:22:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, graebarde@yahoo.com writes: << I thought I hear a few years back something about a verson of the F16, but maybe it was in a fiction I read. >> I don't think the U.S. would sell F-16's to the People's Republic of China, no matter how much they needed the Chinese to counter the Soviets. There was a deal to sell F-16's to the Republic of China (Taiwan), I'm not sure if the deal went through. Is that what you're talking about? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:21:02 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: PLA aircraft Japan makes a F-16 style knock off (well it sure as hell looks like an F-16) OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 02/21/2000 9:22:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, > graebarde@yahoo.com writes: > > << I thought I hear a few years back something about a verson > of the F16, but maybe it was in a fiction I read. >> > > I don't think the U.S. would sell F-16's to the People's Republic of China, > no matter how much they needed the Chinese to counter the Soviets. There was > a deal to sell F-16's to the Republic of China (Taiwan), I'm not sure if the > deal went through. Is that what you're talking about? > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 01:34:45 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: PLA aircraft At 10:21 PM 2/21/00 -0800, Peter Vieth wrote: >Japan makes a F-16 style knock off (well it sure as hell looks like an F-16) > It's not a knock-off--it's an F-16 derivative designed under license (the Japanese wanted to develop their aerospace industry). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:10:24 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: PLA aircraft > Just finished reading "Future Wars" by Trevor Dupuy. An interesting book, >IMHO. Anyways, one of the future conflicts is a war between Russia and >China. He writes >that the PLA Air Force has several types of western aircraft, notably AV-8A >(listed as Q-7), simplified Tornado F-2 (J-9) and modified Mirage 2000 >(F-10). Is this true or conjecture on his part? > Conjecture. >Anyone know of any other western military equipment used by the PLA? > They have gotten a hold of some missile technology from the West, Aspide (LY-60/PL-10), the PL-7 which may be a copy of the Magic R550, PL-8/9 believed to be a copy of the Israeli Python 3. The PLAN also uses the Crotale SAM. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 23:59:57 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: PLA aircraft Ok-- looked kinda funny when I was flipping through Jane's last time. HMMM Where did they get THAT idea I thought... Scott David Orr wrote: > At 10:21 PM 2/21/00 -0800, Peter Vieth wrote: > >Japan makes a F-16 style knock off (well it sure as hell looks like an F-16) > > > It's not a knock-off--it's an F-16 derivative designed under license (the > Japanese wanted to develop their aerospace industry). > > Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:34:46 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: PLA aircraft At 10:10 PM 2/21/00 -0700, JC wrote: > >>Anyone know of any other western military equipment used by the PLA? >> >They have gotten a hold of some missile technology from the West, Aspide >(LY-60/PL-10), the PL-7 which may be a copy of the Magic R550, PL-8/9 >believed to be a copy of the Israeli Python 3. The PLAN also uses the >Crotale SAM. > If you look at some of the pictures from Tiannanmen Square, you'll see that the APC's involved appear to be M113 copies. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 03:39:59 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: PLA aircraft At 11:59 PM 2/21/00 -0800, Peter Vieth wrote: >Ok-- looked kinda funny when I was flipping through Jane's last time. HMMM Where >did they get THAT idea I thought... > It was a huge fight between the U.S. and the Japanese in the late 80's/early 90's, with some U.S. politicians insisting the Japanese buy F/A-18's off the shelf (the requirement was actually for a naval fighter-bomber--"naval" in the sense that it's designed to attack sea targets). The airframe is basically an F-16, but the avionics were supposed to be very advanced, with a Japanese-designed radar (that's one of the few mlitary areas where they have an edge over the U.S.). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:49:01 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: PLA aircraft > Anyone know of any other western military equipment used by > the PLA? Orrin, I can attest this is complete fantasy on the part of that author. While the Chinese have at times acquired various aviation components (engines & avionics most notably) from the US/Europe, they have never been a customer for Western combat aircraft. The only western aircraft whatsoever in their possession are a small number of transports (Tridents & Boeings) and helicopters (mostly Aerospatiale-built SA.321s & SA.365s and locally built copies of them). Both the J-9/F-9 and J-10/F-10 (J- designations for domestic Chinese aircraft, F- for the export versions) are advanced development projects the Chinese have been working on for some time. At least one was to have western engines, but the project sank with the halting of that source. The J-10 has apparently been reengined with Russian jets, and the Chinese claim to have flown a prototype. It is the end result of Chinese-Israeli collaboration and borrows heavily on the defunct Lavi program. China's ability to bring the program into production, and whether the aircraft is a significant advantage over the Su-30 is up to question. The only advanced aircraft entering PRC service in numbers is the Su-30 (sometimes I've heard it referred to as the J-11 when referring to Chinese-built examples). China is building them, but merely as a license copy, not their own modification--as of yet. The only other major project that is likely to see any production in the near future is the FC-1, borne out of the old Super-7 project (itself a mod of the old MiG-21). This is a lightweight fighter designed to replace a good number of the PRC's old J-6s. As of 1999, the PRC operates (combat a/c only): 500 J-5 (MiG-17 Copy) 2800 J-6 (MiG-19 Copy) 550 J-7 (MiG-21 Copy) 100 J-8 (Domestic Fighter Design) 24 MiG-31 Foxhound (Russian-built) 50 Su-27 Flanker (Russian-built, soon to be joined by Chinese-built examples -- 200 planned) 600 Q-5 (Attack development of MiG-19) 350 H-5 (Il-28 Light Bombers) 120 H-6 (Tu-16 Bombers) ....Just in case anyone is in China for their campaign.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 05:54:08 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: PLA aircraft > I don't think the U.S. would sell F-16's to the People's > Republic of China, > no matter how much they needed the Chinese to counter the > Soviets. There was > a deal to sell F-16's to the Republic of China (Taiwan), I'm > not sure if the > deal went through. No, the PRC never was even considered a potential Falcon customer. Yes, the Taiwan deal went through (helping to lead to Taiwan cutting back their own indigenous Ching-Kuo program), and ROC has taken delivery of 70 Block 20 F-16s, along with 60 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft and 80 of their own Ching-Kuo. They still have another 100 or so F-5s to replace, so look for another battle between Lockheed and Dassault for that order. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 04:27:02 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Mitsubishi F-2 > > >Japan makes a F-16 style knock off (well it sure as hell > looks like an F-16) > > > > > It's not a knock-off--it's an F-16 derivative designed under > license (the > > Japanese wanted to develop their aerospace industry). > > > > Scott Orr Yes, Years of development, not to mention billions of dollars (whatever that is in yen...), all to develop a $60 million F-16 that can't be sold abroad. Oh, but it's got a neat composite wing. It's the Mitsubishi F-2, and better than a stock F-16, slightly, in a couple of areas, but surely not worth the exorbitant price tag!!! They would have done much better to have simply licence-build the Block 60s at $30-35 million each...and avoid that R&D expenditure. Josh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:26:30 -0000 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: Re: PLA aircraft - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: PLA aircraft <<< It's not a knock-off--it's an F-16 derivative designed under license (the Japanese wanted to develop their aerospace industry). >>> Don't know how much truth there is in it but in the Tom Clancy book "Debt of Honour" the Japanese had put their own hardware and software inside the aircraft. That does sound reasonably plausible, the book however then went on to add that the new systems were incredibly far advanced. The systems had the ability to use the radar waves reflected by a target from a transmitter as if it was their own radar. To whit knowing their exact position, the exact position of the transmitting aircraft, some pretty precise timing measurements and some basic trigonemetry. All the advantages of active radar from a passive system. How far advanced the stuff is may be questionable but it does seem reasonable to assume that the Japanese stuff is more advancd than what comes in the US models. Anyhow if anyone knows the truth in this then I would be interested to know..... Regards, Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:06:38 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: Saudi Pictures For those of you that wrote me asking me to send you a copy of my Saudi pictures: I finally got them all scanned (51 files @ 3.9 MB each). Then did all the image processing junk to them to ATTEMPT to salvage what quality is in the photos. Then resized them all down to about 800x600 and saved them as JPG's. But the pile of photos is still 4.5 MB! Also, sending the photos without a paragraph worth of explaination would kill about 90% of the value of them. So I decided to create a web site for them. I got 5 MB of web space from my ISP that I've never used. Once I get all the descriptions written and the table of contents written, then I'll get my brother to HTML'ize the stuff and stick it up on the web. Once the site gets active, I'll post the address here for you. Cheers! Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:06:42 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: Soviet TOE Dear List, In an attempt to answer a quesiton posed by my brother on the typical size of a Russian infantry squad in a Mech Inf unit, I ran across a site with the FULL TEXT to FM 100-63. Thats the "INFANTRY-BASED OPPOSING FORCE: ORGANIZATION GUIDE". It has the best TOE charts (Table of Organization and Equipment) I've ever seen in a non-classified source. It lists EXACTLY every piece of major (and even some minor stuff) equipment the Soviet Army issues to Infantry Divisions and Motorized Rifle Divisions. All the way down to squad level of every sub-component! It's a must have resource for game referee's! Chapter 4 is probably the most useful, since it has mostly the small sub-units in it. http://155.217.58.58/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/100-63/toc.htm It's only major flaw is that it might tell you too much! Information overload. Be aware that most pages are pictures of the page from the manual, so it prints pretty bad if you have a low resolution printer that doesn't dither black&white well. Enjoy. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 19:08:47 -0000 From: "Roger Stenning" Subject: OT: Re: Saudi Pictures - technical suggestions Walter - > So I decided to create a web site for them. I got 5 MB of web space from my > ISP that I've never used. Once I get all the descriptions written and the > table of contents written, then I'll get my brother to HTML'ize the stuff > and stick it up on the web. HINT: Jpeg images can be compressed quite well, using the format embedding in the specification for the image. In practice, if, for instance, you're using Paint Shop Pro, you can tell the software to use a high or low compression factor, by using 'save as' and clicking the 'options' button on that dialogue box. HINT: Don't use compression above 30% for photos! Hopefully, this will have the effect of reducing the space you use on your website, enabling you to construct a series of thumbnail images, so that visitors can chose which photos they want to se in more detail. Hope this helps! Best regards, Roger Stenning Webmaster, the Impossible Scenarios Group www.the-isg.co.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:50:39 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Mitsubishi F-2 At 04:27 AM 2/22/00 -0800, Josh Baumgartner wrote: > >Yes, >Years of development, not to mention billions of dollars >(whatever that is in yen...), all to develop a $60 million F-16 >that can't be sold abroad. Oh, but it's got a neat composite >wing. > >It's the Mitsubishi F-2, and better than a stock F-16, slightly, >in a couple of areas, but surely not worth the exorbitant price >tag!!! They would have done much better to have simply >licence-build the Block 60s at $30-35 million each...and avoid >that R&D expenditure. > F-18's, actually--the F-16 couldn't have handed the naval attack duties they had in mind. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 14:47:41 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Mitsubishi F-2 Are you saying that F-16's couldn't shoot at boats? Cor > > > F-18's, actually--the F-16 couldn't have handed the naval attack duties > they had in mind. > > Scott Orr > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:12:12 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: PLA aircraft At 10:26 AM 2/22/00 -0000, Mark Oliver wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Scott David Orr >Subject: Re: PLA aircraft > > ><<< It's not a knock-off--it's an F-16 derivative designed under license >(the Japanese wanted to develop their aerospace industry). >>> > >Don't know how much truth there is in it but in the Tom Clancy book "Debt of >Honour" the Japanese had put their own hardware and software inside the >aircraft. That does sound reasonably plausible, the book however then went >on to add that the new systems were incredibly far advanced. > >The systems had the ability to use the radar waves reflected by a target >from a transmitter as if it was their own radar. To whit knowing their >exact position, the exact position of the transmitting aircraft, some pretty >precise timing measurements and some basic trigonemetry. All the advantages >of active radar from a passive system. > >How far advanced the stuff is may be questionable but it does seem >reasonable to assume that the Japanese stuff is more advancd than what comes >in the US models. > >Anyhow if anyone knows the truth in this then I would be interested to >know..... > That's not all that adavanced, in principle--I think it's how a semi-active radar homing missile works. I don't know of any aircraft that have used it, but then I think that's because there's been no particular reason to use it: radar has traditionally worked to just over the horizon, and so the AWACS plane could just relay positions to the other units. Stealth technology is probably changing that, and I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. has something like this under development. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:18:58 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: PLA aircraft ok, I've heard some interesting viewpoints about PLA a/c from some people who I know are a lot more knowledgeable about the subject than I am. But take a look at this website that the illustrious TR sent me the other night \http://www.concentric.net/~Jetfight/ The J-10 is a concept fighter under development. The damn model in the picture looks like an F-16! It also uses technology from the French Mirage 2000 and Israeli Lavi fighter. The FC-1 is also a concept fighter, the first prototype was supposed to have flown in 1998. But this project was most likely cancelled. The damn picture also looks like an F-16! I'm thinking the Pakistanis, who have good ties to the PRC, gave them one of their F-16's to play with. Makes sense considering the major customer for the FC-1 is Pakistan. But, take a look at the Q-5B. A striking resemblance to the AV-8. Also look at the JH-7. It resembles the Tornado, even uses engines made by Rolls Royce. As for other Western military technology, the PLA has Super Frelon, Eucreil and Dauphin helicopters as well as a dwindling number of Blackhawks. Quite interesting. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:21:01 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: PLA aircraft In a message dated 02/22/2000 5:52:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, strategist_2000@yahoo.com writes: << ....Just in case anyone is in China for their campaign.... >> well thats what I'm gathering the info for...well a T2k Korea campaign anyways. =) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:23:39 EST From: DukeRoyal@aol.com Subject: Re: PLA aircraft The Japanese F-16 variant is actually BETTER than the one that is flown by the U.S. Air Force. Chris *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 17:30:25 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: PLA aircraft For those interested, this place claims to have info on every F-16 version made: http://www.f-16.net/reference/versions.html FYI... Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 18:59:27 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Mitsubishi F-2 At 02:47 PM 2/22/00 -0800, Corey Wells wrote: >Are you saying that F-16's couldn't shoot at boats? > Basically, yes. It doesn't have things like a surface search radar that you need for that role. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 16:31:40 -0800 From: "Corey Wells" Subject: Re: Mitsubishi F-2 Then how does it attack ground target? As far as vectoring in on target, that could usually be taken care of the combat control officer, whether in an AWACS, or on a friendly ship or what... Granted, the primary design is for sole air-combat, but it has been fitted for surface attack. It's RADAR may not have surface search capabilities, but is a pulse-doppler, and is capable of picking out targets at tree-top level. It also can carry external sensor packages, which may give it some other ship-attack functionality. I know it can carry at least two types of anti-radiation missiles. True, those may not carry the punch to severely damage a ship, as they are mainly meant to knock out surface radar, but they could still have a suppression value. And it looks like the Norwegians arm theirs with an antiship missile (isn't that what the Penguin is?) So it obviously has capability. With an air-controller vectoring them in, how hard would it be for them to spot a carrier or destroyer? Smaller ships, maybe... But I think it can serve in an ship warfare capacity. Probably better to use an F-15, or definitely a Hornet. The Falcon would be put to better use in Air Superiority role. But, if that's all you have... Cor - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr To: Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2000 15:59 Subject: Re: Mitsubishi F-2 > At 02:47 PM 2/22/00 -0800, Corey Wells wrote: > >Are you saying that F-16's couldn't shoot at boats? > > > Basically, yes. It doesn't have things like a surface search radar that > you need for that role. > > Scott Orr > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #95 ************************************