twilight2000-digest Monday, January 24 2000 Volume 1999 : Number 087 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #86 Re: finnishbooks Re: finnishbooks Re: finnishbooks Need help in scenario making Re: Need help in scenario making RE: Need help in scenario making Re: Need help in scenario making Re: Need help in scenario making Dealing with high-Initiative characters Re: Dealing with high-Initiative characters Re: Need help in scenario making RE: Walter Re: Need help in scenario making Re: Dealing with high-Initiative characters Saudi/Iraq Questions Re: Saudi/Iraq Questions Re: Need help in scenario making Re: Need help in scenario making Re: Saudi/Iraq Questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 22:59:19 -0600 From: Mitch Berg Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1999 #86 >>> If Holywood wants a bad guy then it's an Englishman who'll get the role, >>> even in a Galaxy far, far, away. >>> >>> When an Englishman is a good guy, heh it does happen!, Holywood will then >>> rewrite the story to remove him anyway :( You mean, like Obiwan Kenobi or Qui Gon Jin? Mitch Berg Humanware Design, Inc. Business: http://www.humanwaredesign.com/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:33:35 +0200 (EET) From: Janne Kemppi Subject: Re: finnishbooks > > > \> also it would be much easier to write about what you know. if a > writer > >grew up in seattle then it would easier for him to write about than if they > >told him to do a sourcebook on sydney australia, or glasgow scotland. > >worldbooks for other countries often felt like tourist guides rather than > >the heart and soul of a city. > > with this in mind dose any boby now a way to get a translaton of any of the > Finnish t2k books. There is translation of the material in English made by JV. It was offered to GDW but we never got answer from them so GDW probably was not interestred in translating the material. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:46:34 +0200 (EET) From: Janne Kemppi Subject: Re: finnishbooks > Actually, I'd be happy to get even the Finnish versions. I can always go to > the university library and get a rough translation with a little research. > Finding a copy of the original material is the hard part. > > Anyone know of a source? http://www.fantasiapelit.fi gives a good place to start looking for that material. They should have ton of that stuff left unsold so send email and ask for cost and the delivery. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:17:03 +0200 From: Pietu Subject: Re: finnishbooks At 11:46 21.1.2000 +0200, you wrote: >> Actually, I'd be happy to get even the Finnish versions. I can always go to >> the university library and get a rough translation with a little research. >> Finding a copy of the original material is the hard part. >> >> Anyone know of a source? > > http://www.fantasiapelit.fi gives a good place to start > looking for that material. They should have ton of that > stuff left unsold so send email and ask for cost and the > delivery. I just check Fantasiapelit couple of days a go. There was only some Twilight2000 1.0 scenarios left. I personally have some books left (not in good condition). Books: Erikoisjoukot (about special forces) Pohjoismaat (about Nordic contries, sourcebook, history etc.) Kööpenhaminaan (scenario) V1.0 houserules All books are for TW2000 1.0 but includes vehicle/weapon datas for TW2000 version 2.0. I personally think that some weapon datas are somehow odd for V2.2. (MAC-10 ROF 10?). Pietu Helsinki, Finland *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:36:41 +0200 From: Pietu Subject: Need help in scenario making Hi pals I am planning a scenario were players are somekind of special recon unit. Place is a southern iraq in 2001 january and campaing world is merc2000. The plan is use two fast attack vehicles for movement and recon military installations including mobile command&control sites where players must try to steal military documents etc. Insertion is made by helicopters and supply air-dropings by c-130. I have made mission briefing very carefully including intelligence photos about target installations. (actually, they were screen shots from janes f-15 flight sim added with some photoshop editing.) Now, the questions: 1. I personally do not know much about car mechanics. I like to know typical mechanical problems/failures, their symptoms, and how they may be fixed. Something else than flat tyres. According my sources, there was lot of mechanical problems with fast attack vehicles during gulf war. 2. Where I can found good (online)maps about sothern iraq? Defence mapping agency has some very good maps, but they were all in northern iraq. Sorry for bad my bad english. Pietu Helsinki Finland *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:06:35 -0600 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making I'm not a mechanic, but southern Iraq includes both marshes and very rocky, sandy terrain, which is popular for cross-country endurance auto races. I would think that you could find some good ideas for maintenace problems by searching the web for cross-country auto racing sites and reading about what sort of problems they encounter in places like the Baja and the Sahara. In the American Southwest, dune buggy racing is popular. That's pretty much what a FAV is. There might be some sites about that sport as well. As to maps: there are a number of Desert Storm related sites online that include maps that may be useful to you. That was basically the area of Iraq invaded by the Coalition forces in that war. You might include undetonated mines or munitions as hazards to a team moving around that area. I'll go browse around for something more specific. Good Luck! - -Rob Pietu wrote: > Hi pals > > I am planning a scenario were players are somekind of special recon unit. > Place is a southern iraq in 2001 january and campaing world is merc2000. > The plan is use two fast attack vehicles for movement and recon military > installations including mobile command&control sites where players must try > to steal military documents etc. Insertion is made by helicopters and > supply air-dropings by c-130. I have made mission briefing very carefully > including intelligence photos about target installations. (actually, they > were screen shots from janes f-15 flight sim added with some photoshop > editing.) > > Now, the questions: > > 1. I personally do not know much about car mechanics. I like to know > typical mechanical problems/failures, their symptoms, and how they may be > fixed. Something else than flat tyres. According my sources, there was lot > of mechanical problems with fast attack vehicles during gulf war. > > 2. Where I can found good (online)maps about sothern iraq? Defence mapping > agency has some very good maps, but they were all in northern iraq. > > Sorry for bad my bad english. > > Pietu > Helsinki > Finland > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:43:09 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: RE: Need help in scenario making > > 1. I personally do not know much about car mechanics. I like to know > typical mechanical problems/failures, their symptoms, and how they may be > fixed. Something else than flat tyres. According my sources, there was lot > of mechanical problems with fast attack vehicles during gulf war. > > 2. Where I can found good (online)maps about sothern iraq? Defence mapping > agency has some very good maps, but they were all in northern iraq. > When I was in southern Iraq during desert storm, I tend to remember several types of terrain and typical vehicle problems. During the month of the air war, prior to the ground invasion, we were set up about 10 miles south of the Saudi/Iradi border. The terrain there was very odd. It appreared smooth at a distance, but in reality the ground was covered in rocks that, in the majority, varried from about the size of a marble to the half the size of a basketball. The problem was that all the edges of these rocks are very sharp. It is simply impossible to run across the ground at night without busting your ass. I know. I still have a little scar on my finger where I tore it open after badly failing a agility check chasing a Hummer that drove through our perimeter one night (yes, even battalion staff weenies have to stand guard duty). We didn't have any fast attack vehicles, our battalion only had Hummers, 2 1/2 ton trucks (called 'deuce and a half's') in addition to our helicopters. What that terrain did was tear up your tires. Everyone always tried to drive through the wadi's (dry river beds), because what little sand there was collected in the low spots. Driving was MUCH more pleasant on some sand than on the damn rocks. At night in the winter time everything was covered with a light sheen of water from the moisture in the air. Typically, it froze almost every night. That's why the rocks as so damn sharp, no rain for wearing the edges, and every little crack eventually breaks the rock from the freezing water in the cracks. A horrible god-forsaken place. You can literally drive for hours and not see one damn thing. Not a bush, a descernable hill, nothing... Just the gradual rising and falling of the land. A couple interesting points to keep in mind. Helicopter's always generate a lot of static electricity in the air when they fly. In the desert it is much worse because of the sand and the relatively dry air. About every 2 months our helicopter blades had to be removed and some sort of epoxy stuff painted on the leading edge of the blades to keep them from wearing away. It was a long irritating process according to the guys in D company. Anyway ... when a helicopter lands to pick up a sling load, it takes 2 guys to attach the sling. One guy holds a metal rod with a ground strap, and the other guys holds the sling. First the helicopter hovers over the load (typically a Hummmer for us, but it could be almost anything up to about 10000 pounds). Then the guy with the ground rod (standing on the hummer with the helicopter right on top of him) reaches up a touches the hook with the rod. Then the other guy heaves the sling hook onto the helicopters load hook. If the guy with the ground rod looses his balance and doesn't hold the rod touching, when the other guy swings the sling, an arc of electricity about a foot long reaches down from the helicopter and knocks the crap out of the poor sap hefting the sling. This happened to a buddy of mine, but that was in Arkansas, not in Saudi. Sorry about the side stories, the real thing of note is, when you watch this with NVG's (Night Vision Goggles), there are dozens of really bright lightning bolts jumping from the helicopter and the blades to the ground. In other words, it is virtually impossible, even with complete blackout, to secretly land a helicopter in the desert if someone has direct line of sight and is wearing NVG's. Another thing of note is how incredibly disorienting the landscape is. Especially at night. Typically it hazes over at night to kill most of the stars (in Winter), so on moonless nights, it is amazingly dark. I don't really know how to describe it, but it's darker than you would think it should be. Sounds gets echoed and carried with the wind in a totally random manner. Very Very difficult to navigate at night without a visible destination, an illuminated compass, or best yet a GPS reciever. We only had 10 of them for the whole battalion, and of course, only the pilots could use them. But I got to play with them a little (perks of the pilots relying on us Intell guys for info). On the advance into Iraq for the ground war, I didn't get to look all that much at the terrain. Unfortunately we moved most of the way at night in the middle of a god-awful sand storm. It is truly a miracle half of us weren't killed the first day in just traffic accidents. You may laugh ... but it's true. Almost the entire 18th Airborne Corp was driving north like mad men in the middle of the night in a sandstorm on a 2 lane road. The traffic was horizon to horizon solid vehicles, 2 lanes and 2 shoulders going north about 30-35 miles an hour of pure insanity. My memory of it is really surreal. More like a good movie than a real experience. Driving with NVG's really kinda sucks. You don't have any peripheral vision, and while they are kinda cool the first time for about an hour, the 100th time at the 6 hours straight, really bites. You really have to concentrate to not screw up. I don't really know how, but it's more of a pain than it seems. >From what I do remember, the terrain got less rocky and more sandy. The sand was different than in Saudi. It was a heavier grain and so it wasn't nearly as irritating (except for the sand storms). Most of the Saudi sand was finer grained, some of the damn stuff was like talc powder. You learn very quickly NOT to oil your rifle, tape a plastic bag over the barrel, and wrap a T-shirt around the handle/ejection port area. That is, if you want the thing to shoot more than once at a time without having to beat the hell out of the forward assist. Also, for any of you who like authenticity, the 82nd Airborne has a thing about doors on the Hummers. Only hard-tops keep the doors, all soft tops (like mine) had the doors removed. This was 'to facilitate a quick exit from the vehicle in case of enemy fire', but you have to wear your seatbelt, or it's a safety violation! But never mind being able to close the door on a sandstorm. Ain't the Army great! Where we finally set up in Iraq was about 1/2 way from the Saudi border to Bagdad. There was a large flat plain to our east (at the time filled with a FASCAM mine field that the 18th's artillery brigade deployed with MLRS's), but because of a shallow rise you could only see about a mile or two. To the west, it kinda reminded me a little of the old west movies with those flat topped escarpments in Utah or somewhere like that. Except the tops weren't quite so flat, at there was lots of sand blown up against many of the sides. I even saw a few shallow caves in the faces of the mounds/hills (whatever the hell you call them). But still very little vegatation. I never even got within 50 miles of Kuwait, so I don't have any idea what that land seems like there. Except what I've seen since on the Discovery channel. I left Iraq on one of our Helicopters to fly back to Saudi, but I don't seem to remember much other than being very happy to be leaving. As it turned out I didn't actually get to go for another month and half, but luckily our battalion rear area was within driving distance of a Bakery unit. I had never even heard of such a thing until one day, a buddy of mine drove into our camp with all the fresh baked raisen bread they could carry. Man! After 7 months of MRE's and T-rats, that was the best stuff I think I've ever had! Apparently, each Corp level headquarters element has a Bakery company. Not as nice as the French army unit we were camped next to (they actually COOK food in the field!). The French guys actually liked the MRE's enough for us to trade some of their stuff for ours a couple times! Well, I've ranted long enough. Maybe I even answered a question or too. Also, I am absolutely certain that DMA has maps of sourthern Iraq. Maybe not for sale, but they are out there. We had millions of them, but I ain't got any now. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:54:02 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making >Well, I've ranted long enough. Maybe I even answered a question or too. >Also, I am absolutely certain that DMA has maps of sourthern Iraq. Maybe >not for sale, but they are out there. We had millions of them, but I ain't >got any now. > >Walter Any reminiscing you feel inclined to Walter, go right ahead. I'm a non-military type and these views on life in the field really bring to life the experience for my players. The non-mils love the realistic feel and the mils aren't jarred by the innaccuracies. I think these kind of posts are the best source material available, anyone can tell you what an M-16 looks like but few people can actually tell you how to eat your dinner without getting sand in it. jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 17:54:02 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making how did the tanks deal with those sharp rocks. i know there is nothing to puncture on a track, but did they cause any unusual problems? aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:45:57 +1300 From: Andrew Tiffany Subject: Dealing with high-Initiative characters Hi all, Anyone got any interesting ideas for dealing with (ie, making life a bit tougher for) high-Initiative characters in T2K? Just started a group up after not playing for a few years, and am just getting back into the swing of things again. The usual 'problem' I remeber cropping up (and it has again) is most characters wanting to end up with Initiative 5 or 6, and moaning if they only get a 1 or 2. Also, they get Initiative Experience from firefights, etc, which lets them bump up their Init over time, and eventually they get so 'quick' that they can get the jump on all and sundry. Personally, here's my current 'solution' to this; let them have their high Initiative, but for each Serious wound (where their Init brops by 3 temporarily normally until healed) I make 1 point of the Init loss PERMANENT. Also, for Critical wounds (where Init drops be 5 temp.) I make 2 points permanent. This has so far made the characters pull out of fights real quick if they start getting hurt, trying to protect their Init rating, unless it is super-critical. Of course they can still raise it back up again later with Init Experience. I rationalize all this by saying the big wounds cause the character to slow down, either physically from the wound, or mentally from the fear, thus lowering their reactions (ie, Initiative) Comments? Cheers Andrew Tiffany *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:46:38 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: Dealing with high-Initiative characters some gm's allow players to place their stats where they want, but i beleive that they put them where they roll em. an example is my current character an education of 4 but an intellegence of 9. so i said he was naturlly gifted but growing up in country germany never had a chance at real schooling. if you have players making killing machines then that can be annoying, if they complain about low initiative then i think too bad. i have watched a gm rip up a character and then tell the guy to make someone real, if they want to make killing machines then they can play warhammer 40,000. it doesn't matter which game you play there will always be some who want the walking death machines. your solution is a decent rules solution, but the problem you are really having is with attitudes. when i do a gunfight unless it is in the middle of the street then i don't tell the players which enemy is aiming at them. if they can see a guy aiming at them then fine, but if they are shooting at one guy they won't see the guy off to the side who plugs them. low or high initiative doesn't help them much then. aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:44:35 +0000 From: Steve Chymy Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making Walter Rebsch wrote: > > Well, I've ranted long enough. Maybe I even answered a question or too. > Also, I am absolutely certain that DMA has maps of sourthern Iraq. Maybe > not for sale, but they are out there. We had millions of them, but I ain't > got any now. > > Walter > > Wow, thank you for the detail. Much appreciated. Are you aware of any other quirks that the sand/environment would cause to weapons or equipment? Steve *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:12:12 EST From: "shaari ladue" Subject: RE: Walter Walter, I thought the stories helped "us" (ex mil, mil, and civies)who weren't there understand the problems that you were trying to illustrate. They were dead on target as far as I was concerned, and you did a damn good job of explaning how that area "felt", to you at least. Thanks for the reply. Shaari ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:08:05 EST From: MOrab46019@aol.com Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making Check anything on the Desert War in WWII.I know that too much oil on weapons attracts sand and that can gum up the weapons works.Heck if you can find the book Sword Point by Harold Cole.In that book he writes about an what if war with US and Russia before the wall came down and the funny thing is it takes place in Iran.So you could use that book as a start. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:31:14 -0600 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: Dealing with high-Initiative characters I used a variant where each character rolled a d10 and added their initiative rating to determine their initiative each turn. A roll of "1" however, was a fumble and caused them to go last. While most of the time, the high-initiative characters still went first, it wasn't a sure bet. - -Rob Andrew Tiffany wrote: > Hi all, > > Anyone got any interesting ideas for dealing with (ie, making life a bit > tougher for) high-Initiative characters in T2K? Just started a group up > after not playing for a few years, and am just getting back into the swing > of things again. The usual 'problem' I remeber cropping up (and it has > again) is most characters wanting to end up with Initiative 5 or 6, and > moaning if they only get a 1 or 2. > > Also, they get Initiative Experience from firefights, etc, which lets them > bump up their Init over time, and eventually they get so 'quick' that they > can get the jump on all and sundry. > > Personally, here's my current 'solution' to this; let them have their high > Initiative, but for each Serious wound (where their Init brops by 3 > temporarily normally until healed) I make 1 point of the Init loss > PERMANENT. Also, for Critical wounds (where Init drops be 5 temp.) I make > 2 points permanent. This has so far made the characters pull out of fights > real quick if they start getting hurt, trying to protect their Init rating, > unless it is super-critical. Of course they can still raise it back up > again later with Init Experience. > > I rationalize all this by saying the big wounds cause the character to slow > down, either physically from the wound, or mentally from the fear, thus > lowering their reactions (ie, Initiative) > > Comments? > > Cheers > > Andrew Tiffany > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 23:43:56 -0600 From: "Walter Rebsch" Subject: Saudi/Iraq Questions > > how did the tanks deal with those sharp rocks. i know there is nothing to > puncture on a track, but did they cause any unusual problems? > > aaron I don't really know. Sorry. I don't think I ever saw the 82nd's Sheridans while I was there. They were there, I just never saw them. The 82nd only has 1 battalion of Sheridan tanks, and they almost always hang around the most critical area that the division has. Whereas, we were typically stuck somewhere off in a corner. The majority of the time I was in Saudi was spent at a place that doesn't have a name about 50 miles south-west of a place that we called 'ab-cake'. Actually it was spelled something like abqui-something. The oil fields around there apparently have about 20% of the worlds oil reserves in it. The point is that we were the southermost unit of all US Army ground forces from about mid-September to the beginning of January when we moved up north. What I do know is that the treads on a tank are metal plate attached together with something like a hinge pin. Then on the outside, a hard rubber pad is attached. The pad, from what I understand, is partly to prevent the tank from damaging roads in drives on, and partly for added traction on rock/pavement. The rubber can be harder than a tire because it doesn't have to be as flexible. Probably the rocks would score and wear the rubber pads faster than usual, but it probably wouldn't impede the tank much. But if you are constantly tearing chunks of rubber out of your tires, sooner or later you gotta replace it or it'll be flat. Granted, Hummers have those run flat inside the tire rims, but the ride quality drops dramatically. But it was the front tires on duece and half's that took it the worst. I remember seeing patches of steel belt through the rubber many times on them. M1's have so much horsepower they can 'peel-out' on a dirt road if they punch the gas from a stop. Very impressive to watch. I guess you wouldn't want to do that very often on the sharp rocky terrain. > Are you aware of any other quirks that the sand/environment would cause to > weapons or equipment? > > Steve Hmmm, to equipment I'd have to think about, but to people is easy. Heat. Sandstorms and the wind-heat factor. I guess you've all heard of wind-chill huh? Well, guess what, there is wind-heat also. I never saw it in a weather briefing, but it's there. In our helicopters there was a little dial thermometer that read in degrees centigrade. The scale ended at 50. After that there was a little space, then a peg for the needle to hit. The needle would peg by 10 am. I can't tell you how hot it got in the copters, because I don't know. If you left your black metal M16 in the sun, then picked it up with your bare hands on the metal part, it could give you second degree burns in just a couple seconds. Well, if you were dumb enough to grit you teeth an bear the burning. Otherwise, if you let go, put some gloves on, the grab it again, you'd be ok ... maybe a little discomfort. When you wear your BDU's (Battle Dress Uniform, you know ... the camo junk you wear all the time, a class C uniform), you have a camo long sleeve shirt with a T-shirt underneath. Typically your T-shirt would be sopping wet and your BDU shirt would be dry and stiff with salt (at the same time). Take off your BDU top, and in about 20 seconds the T-shirt would be dry and stiff with hard white salt bands all over it. Typically, our helicopter mechanics would work about 10 minutes on, 20-50 minutes off when working in the day. That wasn't for comfort, that was for survival. Typically you take your BDU shirt off, wrap a wet T-shirt around your head, go work out in the sun for 10 minutes, then stagger back to a tent. I can't even remember how many guys had to be carried back to the medical tent because they passed out. Getting five bags of IV fluid was typical, 10 bags was not at all unheard of. Luckily we never had any deaths due to heat stroke. I remember when we got the water chiller unit for our water buffalo (a water buffalo is what we called a 1000 liter tank trailer of potable water). We were there about 3 weeks. What a life saver! Finally, water that wasn't as hot as the day! Do you have any idea how plastic it tastes to drink HOT water from a canteen. Awful! I think back on it and wonder how we made it those first 3 weeks. At night it was almost as bad (this was at Daharan, however you spell it). It would get down to about 95 degrees F, but the humility would go up to 100% with fog. I don't know if the day or night was worse. The morning and evening wasn't too bad. After the sun burned off the humidity, it was only about 110 degrees F and no humidity. That was pretty nice. You could actually catch an hour or two of decent sleep. The Saudi's absolutely freaked out when they saw some of the women in brigade's motorpool take off their BDU tops to work on their trucks. Those guys acted like a bunch of born-again evangalist preachers who suddenly found themselves in a strip-club. They were almsot as shocked to see a female officer order a man to do something. Then shocked again when the guy actually did it! The Saudi's were amazing to me how incredibly sexist they are, and how richeously so (in their minds). They thought we were stupid to put up with women like that. When driving in the day time in the summer, you HAVE to wear goggles. Keeping you eyes open in the wind (remember, no doors!) is downright painful, even for just a second or too. Cover every inch of your skin with something. The wind feels like it burns you, because it will. Get a hair dryer and stick it about an inch from your skin, then imagine a giant hair dryer, then you'll get the point. The hot wind will give you the equivalant of a sunburn in only a few minutes. Then imagine your now sensitive burned skin being abraded by harsh hot wind driven sand. Now add to that, the sun is so damn bright that even with the dark lenses on your goggles it's irritating to look too long at the bright sand. On a white concrete runway the brightness is even worse. In the summer, during the day, the helicopters lost a significant amount of their cargo lifting capacity due to the thin dry air. I can't remember the amount exactly, but something like 1/3 on a hot summer day. We had to spray a mixture of tar and diesel fuel on the sand to allow the helicopter's to land without loosing visibility from kicked up sand. If on loose sand, they had to land very quick and hard, otherwise they would loose visibility before they hit. Loosing visiblity after touching down was unavoidable. I guess one of the greatest misconceptions is that a desert is a desert. I don't know the proper names for them, but I can think of many different 'kinds' of desert in Saudi and Iraq. Some sandy, some rocky, some flat, some with dunes, some with hills/escarpments, some with little bits of desert grass every few feet. Along with every concieveable combination of them. There is also, near the gulf, salt flats. This is a particularly nasty form of terrain. It is basically a marsh during the wet season (a day or maybe a week), but the rest of the year it is wet mushy quick sand type stuff. But it is covered by a crust of almost perfectly smooth hard salt/sand. The crust varies in thickness, so you can end up kinda like on a frozen lake. Step/drive on a thin spot and you start sinking. Not that dangerous for a person (unless your being shot at and find yourself suddenly moving in slow motion), but you can easily get a vehicle hopeless stuck. Even a tank can get stuck if you do it right. Summer is MUCH different from winter, which is different still from fall/spring. I was there from August 8th to Late April (I lost track and stopped caring much after late November when they announced there would be no troop rotations). Of all of it, summer is definately the worst. Ok. Enough for today. Walter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 00:56:05 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: Saudi/Iraq Questions thanks for the info, it is very interesting and covers stuff we don't normally hear about. aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 01:53:06 -0000 From: "Roger Stenning" Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making Regarding maps of southern Iraq. You could always try to lay your hands on a TPC (Tactical Pilotage Chart) of the area? Your local airfield/pilots' shop/whatever is close to hand, or even a damn good bookshop, should be able to help. Best regards, Roger Stenning Webmaster, the Impossible Scenarios Group www.the-isg.co.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:13:51 -0800 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Need help in scenario making Pietu wrote: 2. Where I can found good (online)maps about sothern iraq? Defence mapping agency has some very good maps, but they were all in northern iraq. Where did you find maps from the DMA. When I contacted them they said that the United States Geological Survey handled all maps for them. But the USGS, said they didn't. If you have an address e-mail or otherwise or a telephone number, I would love to have it. TTFN Ron hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 06:31:10 -0000 From: "Roger Stenning" Subject: Re: Saudi/Iraq Questions Walter said- [snip] > The Saudi's were amazing to me how incredibly sexist they > are, and how richeously so (in their minds). They thought we were stupid to > put up with women like that. [snip] That's not surprising, given their Religion, cultural history and heritage. Remember, over there, it's a mainly Moslem environment. I wasn't there (RMP reserves were not called to serve over there, just certain elements of our medical regiments, signals, and a couple of other technical regiment types), but can tell you a thing or two, as I was working an area of MoD UK concerned with Op DS; This is something that even the British Army had more than one problem with. Christmas was something our troops had to celebrate in private, as most Middle Eastern countries have a religious Police component, charged with enforcing the tenets of the Moslem Faith - Saudi is not different in this respect. Due to this, our forces had to operate in a very circumspect and careful manner, when it came to both our own Faith(s), and the Women Issue. All troops were given instructions that had to be maintained, in terms of decorum, dress, and respect of Faith. Not even our Chaplains could operate completely in the open, for fear of causing diplomatic embarrassment to our hosts out there. Testing, it most certainly was, by all accounts. I'm also rather proud of the fact that the only Military Medal (one of our highest military honours) awarded to a member of British Forces went to a Sergeant (more recently Staff Sergeant) in the Royal Military Police, who led his platoon in clearing a mine field alley, right under the leading edge of our advance into Iraq. Reputedly, in his report of the incident to the Force Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal (DAPM), he was asked if Anti Handling Devices on the mines had caused problems. His reply was a masterpiece of British understatement: "What's an Anti Handling Device, Sir?"! Sadly, I can also confirm the Saudi bad driving habits: One of our other Sergeants in RMP was killed outright, when his Land Rover (with extra duty air filter, for the sand) was mashed off the "road" by a Saudi Truck Driver, who, as I understand it, apparently would not give way, even when he was supposed to. Criminal ain't the word. Never the less, if you're interested, I'd recommend a book by General Sir Peter De La Billiere, "Storm Command", ISBN 0 00 255138 1, which gives some more insights into not just the British perspective on the war, but the conditions that our (and other nation's) troops operated under out there. Damn good read, FYI! HTH. Best regards, Roger Stenning Webmaster, the Impossible Scenarios Group www.the-isg.co.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #87 ************************************