twilight2000-digest Friday, December 24 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 077 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners RE: 1st Edition Character Generation Wizard Patriotic 'Twas the Night Before Chrsitmas RE: 1st Edition Character Generation Wizard Re: Fw: Prisoners Season's Greetings! Re: Fw: Prisoners Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100 Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners OT?-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:39:02 +0100 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Hi, Scott! Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@IX.Netcom.Com) produced 2,8K in 54 lines: > At 12:33 AM 12/9/99 +1100, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > >> Serving troops develop a grudging respect for the guy in the other > >>uniform and often have more in common with each other than they do between > >>even themselves and their own officers. Note that I don't include a certain > >>amount of physical beating, I'm talking murder and torture. Historically > >>even the Waffen SS and the Soviets took each other prisoner. > Actually, my understanding was that, no, the Soviets wouldn't take SS > troops prisoner. And to my understanding at least these type of Germans viewed the Russians as subhuman. (And what do you expect of a man who's training included living together with his own puppy dog for a year, petting, caring, etc. Just to be ordered then to strangle their animal --- and hesitating meant you failed the test (which you never knew). Ok, that *is* hearsay, but for the SS (not so sure about the Waffen SS) it would fit right in.) > >> So who does this in the Twilight war? Marauders for one, these guys > >>aren't usually real soldiers to start with, they're draftees and prison > >>scrapings that get loose. Paramilitary groups are the worst though, good > >old > >>ethnic cleansing is their main bag and heaven help any foreign soldier who > >>falls into their hands. People who do this, probably for fun even, are the ones in whom the cruelty of war has eroded most of what we call civilisation and who see no need to behave (marauders think of themseves often as the 'local gods', others just go for gold/avgas/women/power and do everything for it). And then there are those who really believe into what they are doing and have no bad conciousness. [1]If you kill a subhuman/jap/ruskie/nigger/indian/... you have done the world a lot of good. "Only a dead injun is a good injun" and they eat white children alife! So if you go in and kill all those traitorous fscking scumbags that will stab you in the back the moment you look away you're only doing the right thing! > Would the normal rules still apply when you no longer have organized > armies? Behaving properly toward the other side only has _direct_ benefits > when you can expect that that behavior will be communicated to soldiers of > that side, so that they'll treat you properly in the future. On the other hand, POWs make excellent recruits, if you can trust them. You don't have to teach them how to use weapons or discipline or manoevers etc. - -Wolfgang [1] Please note: I am in the role of the advocatus diabolicus, I personally do not believe any human being is worth less than any other. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 19:06:18 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 12:39 AM 12/9/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: >Hi, Scott! > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr >(sdorr@IX.Netcom.Com) produced 2,8K in 54 lines: > >> Actually, my understanding was that, no, the Soviets wouldn't take SS >> troops prisoner. > >And to my understanding at least these type of Germans viewed >the Russians as subhuman. (And what do you expect of a man >who's training included living together with his own puppy dog >for a year, petting, caring, etc. Just to be ordered then to >strangle their animal --- and hesitating meant you failed the >test (which you never knew). Ok, that *is* hearsay, but for >the SS (not so sure about the Waffen SS) it would fit right in.) > That has "urban legend" or "Soviet propaganda" written all over it. And it seems silly to boot--when ordered to kill (which is NOT the only thing they did, even if they were the primary enforcement arm of a thugocracy), SS members were ordered to kill people considered to be of no value. How would killing a beloved pet train you to kill "scum"? >> >> So who does this in the Twilight war? Marauders for one, these guys >> >>aren't usually real soldiers to start with, they're draftees and prison >> >>scrapings that get loose. Paramilitary groups are the worst though, good >> >old >> >>ethnic cleansing is their main bag and heaven help any foreign soldier who >> >>falls into their hands. > >People who do this, probably for fun even, are the ones in >whom the cruelty of war has eroded most of what we call >civilisation and who see no need to behave (marauders think >of themseves often as the 'local gods', others just go for >gold/avgas/women/power and do everything for it). > I imagine some marauders do what they do because they think it's the only way they can survive--or because they've spent so much time as soldiers that they can't imagine another life. I don't know that this implies that their humanity has all vanished. [Snip.] >> Would the normal rules still apply when you no longer have organized >> armies? Behaving properly toward the other side only has _direct_ benefits >> when you can expect that that behavior will be communicated to soldiers of >> that side, so that they'll treat you properly in the future. > >On the other hand, POWs make excellent recruits, if you can >trust them. You don't have to teach them how to use weapons >or discipline or manoevers etc. > That's certainly a possibility, yes. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:28:06 +0100 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Hi, Scott! Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 2,6K in 61 lines: > At 12:39 AM 12/9/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr > >(sdorr@IX.Netcom.Com) produced 2,8K in 54 lines: > That has "urban legend" or "Soviet propaganda" written all over it. That's why I prefaced it as "no proof, just hearsay". > And it > seems silly to boot--when ordered to kill (which is NOT the only thing they > did, even if they were the primary enforcement arm of a thugocracy), SS > members were ordered to kill people considered to be of no value. How > would killing a beloved pet train you to kill "scum"? If you can kill a beloved pet just because you were ordered to do that, you'd probably do anything if ordered. As to the "people considered to be of no value" ... Would you, personally, if ordered, kill POWs or civilians? Without raising an eyebrow, without hesitation? Especially when there is no visible reason to do so (not that I could imagine any valid reason)? You see, for most people there is something like 'civilisation'. You just don't murder people, it's bad. Sure, you'd shoot at an enemy, if neccessary, but that's different. At least that's the way rationalisation runs, the enemy is a combatant, knew the risk, is trying to get you wounded or killed. To be able to kill innocents you'd either have to rationalize them guilty ("The jews did all that, they are out to get us") or stop attributing them as humans ("Untermenschen, that's all they are, them ruskies. Not more than talking animals.") or stop placing value in their lifes (what madmen sometimes do) or see no value in any life (for example, running amok). Or simply by stopping to have a concience, completely. Or stopping to care. But that does not fit to the SS psych profile. > >People who do this, probably for fun even, are the ones in > >whom the cruelty of war has eroded most of what we call > >civilisation and who see no need to behave (marauders think > >of themseves often as the 'local gods', others just go for > >gold/avgas/women/power and do everything for it). > I imagine some marauders do what they do because they think it's the only > way they can survive--or because they've spent so much time as soldiers > that they can't imagine another life. I don't know that this implies that > their humanity has all vanished. If marauders were robber barons they'd take life if necessary to get their will or to protect themselves and their interests. (Think of any hostage situation.) I'd sort of understand the rationale 'Kill them all, so there are no victims', even though you'll gain a bad reputation (as in: you'll never get mercy and all fights against you will probably to the death). And it would mean that you feared the opposition so much that you'd never leave any traces. I'd sort of understand making a point ("You harbored a criminal, a deserter. Every 10th man will be shot!"). (In which case you are the local top dog, but still afraid of opposition.) But killing for no reason but for fun ... that's not what being a marauder should teach you, even if you are cruel and take what you want --- or am I wrong? After all, you'll need some way to kill the people: bullets are expensive, you'll just get tired snapping all these necks or slashing all these throats. And you'll probably loose the work force for your local trench digging.[1] - -Wolfgang [1] These kind of reasons lead the Nazis to gas chambres. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:24:04 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 01:28 PM 12/19/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: >Hi, Scott! > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr >(sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 2,6K in 61 lines: > >> At 12:39 AM 12/9/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > >> >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr >> >(sdorr@IX.Netcom.Com) produced 2,8K in 54 lines: > >> That has "urban legend" or "Soviet propaganda" written all over it. > >That's why I prefaced it as "no proof, just hearsay". > >> And it >> seems silly to boot--when ordered to kill (which is NOT the only thing they >> did, even if they were the primary enforcement arm of a thugocracy), SS >> members were ordered to kill people considered to be of no value. How >> would killing a beloved pet train you to kill "scum"? > >If you can kill a beloved pet just because you were >ordered to do that, you'd probably do anything if ordered. > >As to the "people considered to be of no value" ... Would you, >personally, if ordered, kill POWs or civilians? Without raising >an eyebrow, without hesitation? Especially when there is no >visible reason to do so (not that I could imagine any valid >reason)? > >You see, for most people there is something like 'civilisation'. >You just don't murder people, it's bad. Sure, you'd shoot at >an enemy, if neccessary, but that's different. At least that's >the way rationalisation runs, the enemy is a combatant, knew >the risk, is trying to get you wounded or killed. > >To be able to kill innocents you'd either have to rationalize >them guilty ("The jews did all that, they are out to get us") >or stop attributing them as humans ("Untermenschen, that's >all they are, them ruskies. Not more than talking animals.") >or stop placing value in their lifes (what madmen sometimes >do) or see no value in any life (for example, running amok). > >Or simply by stopping to have a concience, completely. >Or stopping to care. But that does not fit to the SS psych >profile. > My point was that usually armies get soldiers to kill by a combination of 1) dehumanizing the enemy and 2) "get him before he gets you." Indiscriminate killign without conscience isn't conductive to good discipline, since if you can kill anyone, it could as easily be someone on your side. [Snip.] Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:39:26 +0800 From: Bradley White Subject: RE: 1st Edition Character Generation Wizard Walter, Very interested in this program...could you send me a copy? Thanks, Brad White. e-mail: bradw@power.net.au -----Original Message----- From: Walter Rebsch [SMTP:walter@houston.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 1:15 AM To: T2K Message Subject: 1st Edition Character Generation Wizard Fellow T2K Enthusiasts, I have been working on a character generator program to assist me and my fellow players in creating player characters. Version 2 isn't quite ready yet, but I hope to finish it up in another week or two (depending on how heckic work is). Version 1 was just an automated character generation worksheet. It took me about 3 evenings to write in VB and leaves the purchasing of skills completely up to you. Version 2 will incorporate an 'interactive skill picker' so some of my math-challenged friends can generate characters without too much hand holding. Apparently the idea of skill points costing double after 50 was just too much... geeze... Anyway, I was wondering if anyone on the list is interested in a copy when I finish it. Version 1 is ready now if you want it. I don't know the distribution size of this list, so if there are 10,000 people going to ask for it, I'll probably just post it to a news group and tell the list where it is (since I don't know of any public FTP sites). Luckily my cable modem uploads pretty fast. I don't recall the exact size of Version 1, but it was only like 50k or so. I'm at work now and it's at home, so I can't check until I get home this evening if somebody has to know exactly how big it is. Also, I was wondering how many of you actually still use the 1st edition? It's all I have (back from my high school days). Does anyone know of a good source of topographic maps of Poland? I wish I knew I was going to start playing this again before I got out of the Army, then I could have ordered a pile of maps from DMA (Defense Mapping Agency) for myself (I worked in a Battalion S2 as an Intelligence Analyst 96B, so I could order any maps I wanted, but obviously I couldn't just swipe any classified stuff without being in jail right now. But at the rate our pilots lost and destroyed maps, no-one would ever notice a couple extra training maps disappearing). I was wanting something like 1:50k or 1:100k maps like we used in the Army. Anybody sell such a thing? Also, another observation. With the web it makes the information flow we had in the Army seem painfully slow. That recent thread about the scorpion tank reminded me how long it took for division to answer Intel information requests. We asked many times for equipment capabilities of Iraqi stuff, but battalion level requests are so low on the totem pole we were lucky to ever get a response. While I was in Saudi, it would typically take a couple weeks to get information you wanted (unless you just drove up to the G2 and had a buddy that worked there find the stuff for you). Does anyone know if any Armies out there use encrypted email for Intel distribution, or is everything still just hardcopies and couriers? Walter ************************************************************************ *** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 23:52:46 EST From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Patriotic 'Twas the Night Before Chrsitmas >'TWAS THE NIGHT BEFORE CHRISTMAS, >HE LIVED ALL ALONE, >IN A ONE BEDROOM HOUSE MADE OF >PLASTER AND STONE. > >I HAD COME DOWN THE CHIMNEY >WITH PRESENTS TO GIVE, >AND TO SEE JUST WHO >IN THIS HOME DID LIVE. > >I LOOKED ALL ABOUT, >A STRANGE SIGHT I DID SEE, >NO TINSEL, NO PRESENTS, >NOT EVEN A TREE. > >NO STOCKING BY MANTLE, >JUST BOOTS FILLED WITH SAND, >ON THE WALL HUNG PICTURES >OF FAR DISTANT LANDS. > >WITH MEDALS AND BADGES, >AWARDS OF ALL KINDS, >A SOBER THOUGHT >CAME THROUGH MY MIND. > >FOR THIS HOUSE WAS DIFFERENT, >IT WAS DARK AND DREARY, >I FOUND THE HOME OF A SOLDIER, >ONCE I COULD SEE CLEARLY. > >THE SOLDIER LAY SLEEPING, >SILENT, ALONE, >CURLED UP ON THE FLOOR >IN THIS ONE BEDROOM HOME. > >THE FACE WAS SO GENTLE, >THE ROOM IN SUCH DISORDER, >NOT HOW I PICTURED >A UNITED STATES SOLDIER. > >WAS THIS THE HERO >OF WHOM I'D JUST READ? >CURLED UP ON A PONCHO, >THE FLOOR FOR A BED? > >I REALIZED THE FAMILIES >THAT I SAW THIS NIGHT, >OWED THEIR LIVES TO THESE SOLDIERS >WHO WERE WILLING TO FIGHT. > >SOON ROUND THE WORLD, >THE CHILDREN WOULD PLAY, >AND GROWNUPS WOULD CELEBRATE >A BRIGHT CHRISTMAS DAY. > >THEY ALL ENJOYED FREEDOM >EACH MONTH OF THE YEAR, >BECAUSE OF THE SOLDIERS, >LIKE THE ONE LYING HERE. > >I COULDN'T HELP WONDER >HOW MANY LAY ALONE, >ON A COLD CHRISTMAS EVE >IN A LAND FAR FROM HOME. > >THE VERY THOUGHT >BROUGHT A TEAR TO MY EYE, >I DROPPED TO MY KNEES >AND STARTED TO CRY. > >THE SOLDIER AWAKENED >AND I HEARD A ROUGH VOICE, >"SANTA DON'T CRY, >THIS LIFE IS MY CHOICE; > >I FIGHT FOR FREEDOM, >I DON'T ASK FOR MORE, >MY LIFE IS MY GOD, >MY COUNTRY, MY CORPS." > >THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER >AND DRIFTED TO SLEEP, >I COULDN'T CONTROL IT, >I CONTINUED TO WEEP. > >I KEPT WATCH FOR HOURS, >SO SILENT AND STILL >AND WE BOTH SHIVERED >FROM THE COLD NIGHT'S CHILL. > >I DIDN'T WANT TO LEAVE >ON THAT COLD, DARK, NIGHT, >THIS GUARDIAN OF HONOR >SO WILLING TO FIGHT. > >THEN THE SOLDIER ROLLED OVER, >WITH A VOICE SOFT AND PURE, >WHISPERED, "CARRY ON SANTA, >IT'S CHRISTMAS DAY, ALL IS SECURE." > >ONE LOOK AT MY WATCH, >AND I KNEW HE WAS RIGHT. >"MERRY CHRISTMAS MY FRIEND, >AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT." > >This poem was written by a Marine stationed in Okinawa, Japan. The >following is his request. I think it is reasonable..... > >PLEASE. Would you do me the kind favor of sending this to as many people >as you can? Christmas will be coming soon and some credit is due to our >U.S. service men and women for our being able to celebrate these >festivities. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:05:51 +0200 From: "Pasi Parviainen" Subject: RE: 1st Edition Character Generation Wizard Walter, Yes I would like to have a copy too. If needed I can put it on my FTP-server too (unless there is a problem with that it's in Finland ;) PS: I'm working with character generator & 'combat resolver' with version 2, but please don't ask for it for a long time. I'm still quite busy with other projects... :( *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 02:45:05 +0100 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Hi, Scott! Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 2,4K in 61 lines: > My point was that usually armies get soldiers to kill by a combination of > 1) dehumanizing the enemy and 2) "get him before he gets you." > Indiscriminate killign without conscience isn't conductive to good > discipline, since if you can kill anyone, it could as easily be someone on > your side. ... like that stupid officer who's blunderings killed too many of your friends. But then marauders might have a 'Klingon' (or Kilrathi) society, where killing unliked superiors is a way to (legitimately) get command (for the rest of your life[1]). - -Wolfgang [1] probably rather short. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:38:02 -0000 From: "Roger Stenning" Subject: Season's Greetings! To all of you on the list, lurking or active, verbose, or concise: May y2k not bite your comp, the booze not cramp your pomp; and may the new year bring prosperity, oh, and one other thing: Happiness. In short: Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year. Have a good one! Best regards, Roger Stenning Webmaster, the Impossible Scenarios Group www.the-isg.co.uk *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:33:09 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 02:45 AM 12/20/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: >Hi, Scott! > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr >(sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 2,4K in 61 lines: > >> My point was that usually armies get soldiers to kill by a combination of >> 1) dehumanizing the enemy and 2) "get him before he gets you." >> Indiscriminate killign without conscience isn't conductive to good >> discipline, since if you can kill anyone, it could as easily be someone on >> your side. > >... like that stupid officer who's blunderings killed too many >of your friends. But then marauders might have a 'Klingon' >(or Kilrathi) society, where killing unliked superiors is a way >to (legitimately) get command (for the rest of your life[1]). There's a reason the Klingons are science _fiction_, not real life. :) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:40:13 +1100 http://www.theonion.com/onion3121/billgates.html Damn I hate Munchkin players! *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 02:59:29 +0100 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Hi, Scott! Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 1,0K in 25 lines: > At 02:45 AM 12/20/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > >of your friends. But then marauders might have a 'Klingon' > >(or Kilrathi) society, where killing unliked superiors is a way > >to (legitimately) get command (for the rest of your life[1]). > There's a reason the Klingons are science _fiction_, not real life. :) Well, there are societies where you get leader by removing the prior leader. In democracies that's called voting, nobody gets hurt and most everyone there agrees that this sucks less than all other ways. In the corporate world you've got the hostile takeover which probably isn't fair and not everyone there agrees that this is good, it's lawful and the way it works. If you are unlucky, the military has a coup and kills some and imprisons the rest of former leadership. This can also happen when the people revolt (then you get a revolution) and again, usually, the old leader is killed (after a mock trial or something). On a smaller scale: Bandits/Marauders/Terrorists/Drug Lords take over a village or a small town (with no immediate help nearby). If they intend to hold the town, the mayor removed from office (unless he was a friend to begin with), opposition is removed (killed, imprisoned, driven away or underground). There's not much of a step there to have a (larger?) fraction of marauders overwhelm the leading, unliked, small fraction and take over leadership. Especially if the general consent is: "Fighting skill is what we need most to survive[1], so the most experienced fighter gets to lead us. You claim to be better? A demonstration (to the death[2]) can be arranged." But you are right ... Klingons and Kilrathi (usually) have honor, marauders usually not ... and I am glad you did not underline the 'science' part there. - -Wolfgang [1] ever notice the many Commandos & co in player groups? [2] thus removing many of the aspirants becausethey rather not risk death ... and removing the 'failures' as well. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:35:26 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 02:59 AM 12/22/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: >Hi, Scott! > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) >produced 1,0K in 25 lines: > >> At 02:45 AM 12/20/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: >> >of your friends. But then marauders might have a 'Klingon' >> >(or Kilrathi) society, where killing unliked superiors is a way >> >to (legitimately) get command (for the rest of your life[1]). > >> There's a reason the Klingons are science _fiction_, not real life. :) > >Well, there are societies where you get leader by removing >the prior leader. > >In democracies that's called voting, nobody gets hurt and most >everyone there agrees that this sucks less than all other ways. > >In the corporate world you've got the hostile takeover which >probably isn't fair and not everyone there agrees that this >is good, it's lawful and the way it works. > >If you are unlucky, the military has a coup and kills some >and imprisons the rest of former leadership. This can also >happen when the people revolt (then you get a revolution) >and again, usually, the old leader is killed (after a mock >trial or something). There are no societies I'm familiar with in which killing someone is sufficient in and of itself to take over his position--and _certainly_ none where killing someone is considered a _legitimate_ way of doing so. All of the methods you mention above involve not merely physically removing the previous office-holder, but building replacing his bases of legitimacy and support. In some coups, this involves killing the office-holder--but only so that he can't organize a counter-coup, not because the act of killing in and of itself legimiates the new office-holder. That is, a lucky assassin can't became the new office-holder--it takes a lot more than that. The Klingon system is simply pure fiction--I can't imagine a real society working like that, because it would be too unstable. > >On a smaller scale: Bandits/Marauders/Terrorists/Drug Lords take >over a village or a small town (with no immediate help nearby). >If they intend to hold the town, the mayor removed from office >(unless he was a friend to begin with), opposition is removed >(killed, imprisoned, driven away or underground). > And the bandits continue to rule because 1) they have guns to support their rule and 2) they coopt some of the citizens. The citizens do not aumatically fall down and serve them simply because they've killed the mayor. >There's not much of a step there to have a (larger?) fraction >of marauders overwhelm the leading, unliked, small fraction and >take over leadership. Especially if the general consent is: >"Fighting skill is what we need most to survive[1], so the most >experienced fighter gets to lead us. You claim to be better? >A demonstration (to the death[2]) can be arranged." > >But you are right ... Klingons and Kilrathi (usually) have >honor, marauders usually not ... and I am glad you did not >underline the 'science' part there. > Actually, the more chaotic the society, the more likely a system of "honor" is to be institutionalize--given enough time for norms to set in, of course--since, where you have no laws, reputation is everything in interpersonal dealings. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:53:47 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners I've watched this thread for a while and thought I might add a little something. In most instances you will find that bandit groups and marauders rely on one thing for their power base over the population, FEAR If your populace is scared of you they will not usually try anything. Upstarts are made examples of in front of the public. While fear will not keep people happy it does ensure that the populace in general will follow your orders without question. The problem that arrises is that you must be ruthless continuously otherwise your grip on the populace diminishes. Also fear tends to be a short term solution (say 12 months) after that you may find small pockets of resistance popping up that will drain your resources on unnecessary conflicts, man hunts etc. However in the TW2K universe while marauders may initially use the fear tactic to gain the cooperation of the populace. They can hold onto a region for a longer period of time with protection. Some form of normal life and security will bring loyalty in the long run. Most of the time you will find that the marauders will have to be firm still with both the people and with their own members to ensure that the town etc remains loyal. Remember that towns produce more than just food. They are also a handy place to gain new members for the gang / group. Well that's IMHO....flame away. Ballistix - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wolfgang Weisselberg" To: Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 1999 09:59 Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners > Hi, Scott! > > Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) > produced 1,0K in 25 lines: > > > At 02:45 AM 12/20/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > > >of your friends. But then marauders might have a 'Klingon' > > >(or Kilrathi) society, where killing unliked superiors is a way > > >to (legitimately) get command (for the rest of your life[1]). > > > There's a reason the Klingons are science _fiction_, not real life. :) > > Well, there are societies where you get leader by removing > the prior leader. > > In democracies that's called voting, nobody gets hurt and most > everyone there agrees that this sucks less than all other ways. > > In the corporate world you've got the hostile takeover which > probably isn't fair and not everyone there agrees that this > is good, it's lawful and the way it works. > > If you are unlucky, the military has a coup and kills some > and imprisons the rest of former leadership. This can also > happen when the people revolt (then you get a revolution) > and again, usually, the old leader is killed (after a mock > trial or something). > > On a smaller scale: Bandits/Marauders/Terrorists/Drug Lords take > over a village or a small town (with no immediate help nearby). > If they intend to hold the town, the mayor removed from office > (unless he was a friend to begin with), opposition is removed > (killed, imprisoned, driven away or underground). > > There's not much of a step there to have a (larger?) fraction > of marauders overwhelm the leading, unliked, small fraction and > take over leadership. Especially if the general consent is: > "Fighting skill is what we need most to survive[1], so the most > experienced fighter gets to lead us. You claim to be better? > A demonstration (to the death[2]) can be arranged." > > But you are right ... Klingons and Kilrathi (usually) have > honor, marauders usually not ... and I am glad you did not > underline the 'science' part there. > > -Wolfgang > > [1] ever notice the many Commandos & co in player groups? > [2] thus removing many of the aspirants becausethey rather > not risk death ... and removing the 'failures' as well. > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:36:43 +0100 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Hi, Scott! Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 3,4K in 74 lines: > At 02:59 AM 12/22/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr (sdorr@ix.netcom.com) > >produced 1,0K in 25 lines: > There are no societies I'm familiar with in which killing someone is > sufficient in and of itself to take over his position--and _certainly_ none > where killing someone is considered a _legitimate_ way of doing so. "Legitimate" is a complicated matter, or as the saying goes: "A Smith&Wesson beats four Aces." > That is, a lucky assassin > can't became the new office-holder--it takes a lot more than that. That is true, even in the Klingon society. You have to challenge the leader somehow and win your challenge[1]. Even if it is 'Kill the current leader from behind (to make your point), claim yourself as the new leader and ask if anyone objects' ... > >On a smaller scale: Bandits/Marauders/Terrorists/Drug Lords take > >over a village or a small town (with no immediate help nearby). > And the bandits continue to rule because 1) they have guns to support their > rule and 2) they coopt some of the citizens. The citizens do not > aumatically fall down and serve them simply because they've killed the mayor. The mayor is killed to show: "We are not afraid of shedding *your* blood.", see above. Cooperating with some citicens is more or less optional, it helps, yes ... > Actually, the more chaotic the society, the more likely a system of "honor" > is to be institutionalize--given enough time for norms to set in, of > course--since, where you have no laws, reputation is everything in > interpersonal dealings. Reputation != honor. If you have the reputation of cruelly killing any opposition and be honorless, then there will be no open opposition and people will expect you to act without honor, no matter what the truth is. - -Wolfgang [1] Be it election or controlling the population by terror ... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:30:28 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 12:36 PM 12/23/99 +0100, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > >Trying to kill the keyboard, Scott David Orr >(sdorr@ix.netcom.com) produced 3,4K in 74 lines: > >> Actually, the more chaotic the society, the more likely a system of "honor" >> is to be institutionalize--given enough time for norms to set in, of >> course--since, where you have no laws, reputation is everything in >> interpersonal dealings. > >Reputation != honor. If you have the reputation of cruelly >killing any opposition and be honorless, then there will be >no open opposition and people will expect you to act without >honor, no matter what the truth is. > Reputation may always be honor, but the reverse is absolutely true: honor is simply a codified system of reputation. Scott Orre *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:32:04 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners Or actually, I think I might assert that reputation IS always honor: that is, "honor" is having a GOOD reputation--in a choatic system, without (enforceable) laws, someone's honor (that is, their reputation for behaving well) is your only assurance in interpersonal relationships. I never implied that ALL people with reputations have honor, but rather that the concept of honor is part and parcel of having reputations. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 01:19:47 -0700 From: Humorless Texan Subject: OT?-- North Pole Standoff with the ATF Goto Strange Texas News - WWW.STRANGETEXAS.COM to see the whole story. :) Dec. 23, 1999 Northpole Standoff A fierce battle ended in a stand-off today as a multi-jurisdictional task force of federal law enforcement agents tried to arrest the leader of a militant doomsday cult, who call themselves "Elves," living in a heavily fortified compound at the Northpole. According to witnesses, federal agents hid in livestock trailers as they drove up to the compound. The approach was difficult in the snow using wheeled vehicles. Several agents were reportedly thrown from the trailer when it hit a snowbank. The agents were unable to use dogteams and sleds because the ATF agents shot all the dogs during training at a nearby recreational facility where agents had practiced for weeks on a mock-up of the compound in preparation for the raid. As three National Guard helicopters approached, over 100 law officers stormed the main compound, a heavily fortified gingerbread structure, throwing concussion grenades and screaming "Come out!" Cult members and law officers negotiated a cease-fire about 45 minutes after the incident began. For the next several hours, ambulances and helicopters swarmed the premises. The area was cordoned off and ATF agents with machine guns were posted in the roadways to keep reporters at least two miles from the main battle area. In a lengthy report on the group Saturday, The Northpole Tribune-Herald said that the cult was known to have a large arsenal of high-powered weapons, probably produced in a workshop disguised as a "toy factory." This toy factory is also believed to be the sight of a methamphetamine laboratory, according to sources inside the ATF. The article quoted investigators as saying the crazed cult leader, who uses several aliases, "Santa Claus," "Saint Nick," "Sinterclaas," and "Saint Nicholas," age unknown, has abused children and claims to have at least 15 wives. Santa Claus denies these accusations of abuse and said he has had only one wife, Mrs. Santa Claus. Authorities had a warrant to search the Northpole compound for guns and explosive devices and an arrest warrant for its leader, Santa Claus, said Mess Stanford of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms in Washington, D.C. Mr. Stanford added it would be useless to attempt to get a copy of this warrant, however, because it had been sealed, "for national security reasons." The assault came one day after the Northpole Tribune-Herald began publishing a series on the cult, quoting former members as saying the deranged cult leader, Santa Claus, abused children and had at least 15 wives. ATF spokesman Jack Killchildren in Washington said the assault had been planned for several weeks, although he added, "I think the newspaper's investigation set up heightened tension." The cult's fortress, called "The Toy Factory," is dominated by a tower with lookout windows facing in all directions. Guards reportedly patrol the 77-acre grounds at night. Attorney General Janet Reno ordered the raid after cult members refused to surrender documents relating to national security. A source inside the Justice Department said that the documents were lists of cabinet members and highly placed government officials who were naughty or nice. Despite preliminary, secret negotiations to obtain the list, the Elves refused to surrender the document to the Justice Department. The raid was scheduled for December 23, because December 25 is believed to be a traditional cult holiday and all the militant elves would be engaged in cult rituals in preparation for the event. At a press conference this afternoon, Attorney General Reno said, "These militants abuse children in the most vile manner, by teaching them to expect charity. They have even distributed free, working replicas of 'assault weapons' and 'handguns.' It is a matter of dire importance to our future and the future of all our children, that this peril be ended by every means at our disposal." She went on to say that "I do not want to surround the compound and shoot everyone and then burn it to the ground in order to prevent this child abuse from occurring again, but that appears to be our only alternative." According to Reno, the "Toy Factory" itself is a sweatshop and conditions inside were horrendous. The Department of Justice is also looking into allegations of animal cruelty. Former members of the cult have claimed that Santa Claus frequently uses leather restraints on at least eight reindeer, housed in sordid conditions on the compound. Witnesses reported seeing a reindeer with a protruding red nose, which Janet Reno said was further indication of the abusive conditions inside the compound. Several of the elves were reported by the BATF to have been carrying automatic weapons. However, independant sources dispute this, claiming that the "automatic weapons" were nothing more than large candy canes. ATF leader Ted Oyster, shaken after the ordeal, spoke to reporters as hundreds of agents, many of them in tears, were taken away from the Northpole in military airlifts, ambulances, and private vehicles. "We had our plan down, we had our diversion down, and they were waiting..." Oyster said resignedly, shaking his head. A hospital spokesman said that most of the wounded ATF agents appeared to be suffering from shrapnel wounds from broken candy canes, as well as frostbite, apparently suffered from wearing forest-green camoflage in the wintery terrain. Attorney General Reno offered no comment on these reports. Mack "the knife" McWarty was seen strolling across the White House lawn, chuckling to himself as he read what inside sources say was a copy of the naughty/nice list. One highly placed government official was found dead in Marcy Park. His name and the cause of death are unknown at this time, however, the White House immediately issued a statement claiming the official had committed suicide after learning his name was not on the nice list. Patsy Thomahawk refused to comment on the advice of her attorney on whether she had any part in removing copies of the naughty/nice list from a safe in the White House. A spokesman from the MJTF said that it was indeed a tragedy that Santa Claus had caused this confrontation, but this should be a lesson to anyone who tries to give to everyone without permission from the welfare department, and that gathering sensitive data without a permit from official sources will be stopped by any means. FBI spokesman Bob Pricks, the former National Abortion Rights Action League Poster Child of 1944, relayed that "We are dealing with a madman. We have cut off all electricity, water, and communications to the compound. Santa Claus has demanded that we relay a message to the world. It reads, 'Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.' FBI psychological experts are presently analyzing the message, however,preliminary reports indicate this is an encrypted threat to invade the neighboring towns near the Northpole. It may also be a doomsday message that the cult intends to commit suicide, like Jonestown." Shortly after the raid, a smiling Reno was seen strolling through the pile of rubbish looking for anatomically correct Barbie dolls. She claimed that she was going to confiscate any that she found as "evidence" and that they were for a personal investigation that she was conducting. Attorney General Reno also disclosed some information about plans to raid Mr. E. Ster Bunny sometime next spring. According to the FBI's report on Mr. Bunny, he has been hoarding food all year. This is in direct violation of a secret Presidential Directive. "This ingratitude for everything that we have done will stop, even if it means raiding every house in the USA to enforce these new laws that were made to insure your freedom...." Reno said. This, boys and girls, should make us all sleep just a little bit better tonight. The government will protect us from overindulging in freedom. If they didn't step in and take control of that "naughty/nice" list, just think what shape we might be in..... :-)*********** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God... tiamat@tsoft.com "That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is sacred somewhere. There's a deity out here who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving yourself permission." -- Jack Darkhand I hate it when my Mind wanders, I have no Idea find It will bring back with It. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #77 ************************************