twilight2000-digest Thursday, December 9 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 074 The following topics are covered in this digest: new ed RE: new ed RE: new ed Re: new ed Civilian sport arms question... Re: Civilian sport arms question... Re: Civilian sport arms question... Re: Civilian sport arms question... KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Fw: Prisoners Injecting some realism into T2K Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Re: Fw: Prisoners Re: Injecting some realism into T2K Re: Injecting some realism into T2K scorpion light tank. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:56:14 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: new ed if twilight is released again is anyone other than me worried that it may be so revised that all the old suppliments won't work with it? aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:32:50 -0500 From: "Erwos" Subject: RE: new ed I would worry about getting the new edition first, Aaron. :-) Besides, they probably wouldn't change the rules all too much - what's the point of licensing the system if you aren't going to bother to use it? You can take pretty much any set of rules and throw them in a post-apocalyptic world. - -Erwos - -----Original Message----- From: owner-twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com [mailto:owner-twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Fugitivus Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 3:56 PM To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: new ed if twilight is released again is anyone other than me worried that it may be so revised that all the old suppliments won't work with it? aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:28:48 +1300 From: "Gray, Raymond" Subject: RE: new ed I must have missed the beginning of the thread about a new edition, can somebody clue me in on the details - like if there is a new edition imminent? Ray - -----Original Message----- From: Erwos [mailto:erwos@geocities.com] Sent: Monday, 29 November 1999 11:33 To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: RE: new ed I would worry about getting the new edition first, Aaron. :-) Besides, they probably wouldn't change the rules all too much - what's the point of licensing the system if you aren't going to bother to use it? You can take pretty much any set of rules and throw them in a post-apocalyptic world. - -Erwos - -----Original Message----- From: owner-twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com [mailto:owner-twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Fugitivus Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 3:56 PM To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Subject: new ed if twilight is released again is anyone other than me worried that it may be so revised that all the old suppliments won't work with it? aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:12:20 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: new ed >if twilight is released again is anyone other than me worried that it may be >so revised that all the old suppliments won't work with it? > >aaron > >I would worry about getting the new edition first, Aaron. :-) > >Besides, they probably wouldn't change the rules all too much - what's the >point of licensing the system if you aren't going to bother to use it? You >can take pretty much any set of rules and throw them in a post-apocalyptic >world. > >-Erwos > There was an interesting thread on this over at the town hall T2K BB, basically they where investigating writing their own T2K but everyone worked out that we are too afraid of the lawyers to try it. With all the house rules around most of the suppliments dont work anyway and some of them were of poor quality to start with. We use the Cyberpunk 2020 rules and I wouldn't want to go back (Whew! All those dice!) Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:53:45 -0600 From: "David Reed" Subject: Civilian sport arms question... Howdy, I can't seem to recall, so I'll throw it open to y'all... Does anybody know of a civilian/sporter-type carbine-sized weapon that fires .223 and accepts M-16/AR-15 magazines? Wacky Y2k survivalist-types and ecoterrorists might select something that matches those two parameters for maximum scrougability and availability, but not select an AR for cost and form factor reasons. I seem to recall at least a Mini/14 variant that met them, but I can't find any kind of documentation of its existence... Thanx!! /* David.Reed@xolutions.net You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me. */ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:05:38 -0700 From: rogue09@sprynet.com Subject: Re: Civilian sport arms question... David Reed wrote: > Howdy, > > I can't seem to recall, so I'll throw it open to y'all... Does anybody know > of a civilian/sporter-type carbine-sized weapon that fires .223 and accepts > M-16/AR-15 magazines? Oh jeez! There are a multitude of them out there! Olympic Arms makes the PCR Series of carbines in 223, Bushmaster makes the XM15 E2S, the bullpup M17S as well, Colt makes their Match Target Lightweights, Armalite and Knight/Stoner make 223 carbines as well... and let's not forget the Ruger Mini-12 Series. ALL of which take M-16 STANANG magazines as a matter of principle. Let me know if you want specifics and I'll send you website addies. > > > Wacky Y2k survivalist-types and ecoterrorists might select something that > matches those two parameters for maximum scrougability and availability, but > not select an AR for cost and form factor reasons. I seem to recall at > least a Mini/14 variant that met them, but I can't find any kind of > documentation of its existence... > > Thanx!! > > /* > David.Reed@xolutions.net > > You're just jealous because > the voices only talk to me. > */ > Until Later T.R. > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. - -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." - --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:09:50 -0700 From: rogue09@sprynet.com Subject: Re: Civilian sport arms question... > > and let's not forget the Ruger Mini-12 Series. "That should ready "Ruger Mini-14 Series" SHEASH-typing to fast again! > > Until Later > > T.R. > . > - -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." - --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:15:06 -0700 From: rogue09@sprynet.com Subject: Re: Civilian sport arms question... - --------------93008DA6E0A304C0E37E84A6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Reed wrote: > Howdy, > > I can't seem to recall, so I'll throw it open to y'all... Does anybody know > of a civilian/sporter-type carbine-sized weapon that fires .223 and accepts > M-16/AR-15 magazines? Armalite AR-180 SA 223 Remington- 5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 18.25 inch barrel-6.50 pounds-28.75 inch/38 inch OA Made From 1976 to 1994 (1969-1972 & 1972-1973) Price: $995 Armalite M-15A2 M4C 223 Remington-7, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-7.0 pounds-35.0 inch OA Made From 1997 to Date Price: $930 Beretta AR-70 SA 223 Remington-30 round box magazine 17.75 inch barrel-8.25 pounds Made From 1984 To 1991 Price: $1295 Bushmaster M17S Bullpup 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazines 21.50 inch barrel-8.20 pounds-30.0 inch OA Made From 1993 to Date Price: $720 Bushmaster Shorty XM15 E2S Carbine 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-7.2 pounds-34.75 inch OA Made From 1997 To Date Price: $912.50 Colt AR-15 Sporter SA 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel-6.3 pounds Made From 1964-1994 Price: $975 Colt AR-15A2 Delta H-Bar 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel Price: $1459.95 Colt AR-15A2 Government Model Carbine 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-5.80 pounds-35 inches OA Made From 1985 to 19991 Price: $825 Colt AR-15A2 Sporter II 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1985 to 1989 Price: $1095 Colt AR-15 Sporter Competition H-Bar 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1991 to Date Price: $850 Colt AR-15 Sporter Match Target Lightweight 223 Remington, 7.62x39mm Russian & 9mm Parabellum-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-6.70 to 7.10 pounds-34.5-35.5 inch OA Made From 1991 to Date Price: $750 ($585 for 9mm P) Colt AR-15A2 Sporter Target Rifle 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1993 to Date Price: $825 Daewoo DR200 223 Remington-6, 20 & 30 round box magazines 18.30 inch barrel-9.0 pounds-39.20 inch OA Made From 1995 to Date Price: $535 Eagle Arms M-15A4 223 Remington-30 round box magazine 16.0 inch barrel-6.20 pounds-30.0 inch OA Price: $1160 LR 300 SR Light Sport 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazine 16.25 inch barrel-7.2 pounds-36.0 inch OA Made From 1996 To Date Price: $2550 M-1 Carbine (Iver Johnson, National Ordnance, Plainfield) 223 Remington-5, 15 & 30 round box magazines 18.0 inch barrell / 6.0 pounds Manufacutred by Iver Johnson (Late 1970's to Early 1990's), Johnson Arms (Mid 1960's) & Plainfield (1960 to late 1970's) Price: $350 Olmpyic Arms PCR-4 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel-8.50 pounds-38.25 iinch OA Made From 1994 to Date Price: $792 Ruger Mini-14 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.50 pounds Made From 1976 to Date Price: $400 Ruger Mini-14/5F (Folding Stock) 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.50 pounds Made From 1976 to Date Price: $550 Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.25 pounds Price: $504 Valmet Hunter 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazines 20.5 inch barrel-8.0 pounds-42 inch OA Made From 1986 to Early 1990's Price: $755 > > > Wacky Y2k survivalist-types and ecoterrorists might select something that > matches those two parameters for maximum scrougability and availability, but > not select an AR for cost and form factor reasons. I seem to recall at > least a Mini/14 variant that met them, but I can't find any kind of > documentation of its existence... It should also be noted that many survivalist & racist groups advocated in the 80's their members purchasing M-1 Garands, H&K 91 Rifles as well as 22 LR rifles. > > > Thanx!! > Hope The List Above Helps T.R. - -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." - --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 - --------------93008DA6E0A304C0E37E84A6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Reed wrote: Howdy, I can't seem to recall, so I'll throw it open to y'all... Does anybody know of a civilian/sporter-type carbine-sized weapon that fires .223 and accepts M-16/AR-15 magazines? Armalite AR-180 SA 223 Remington- 5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 18.25 inch barrel-6.50 pounds-28.75 inch/38 inch OA Made From 1976 to 1994 (1969-1972 & 1972-1973) Price: $995 Armalite M-15A2 M4C 223 Remington-7, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-7.0 pounds-35.0 inch OA Made From 1997 to Date Price: $930 Beretta AR-70 SA 223 Remington-30 round box magazine 17.75 inch barrel-8.25 pounds Made From 1984 To 1991 Price: $1295 Bushmaster M17S Bullpup 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazines 21.50 inch barrel-8.20 pounds-30.0 inch OA Made From 1993 to Date Price: $720 Bushmaster Shorty XM15 E2S Carbine 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-7.2 pounds-34.75 inch OA Made From 1997 To Date Price: $912.50 Colt AR-15 Sporter SA 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel-6.3 pounds Made From 1964-1994 Price: $975 Colt AR-15A2 Delta H-Bar 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel Price: $1459.95 Colt AR-15A2 Government Model Carbine 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-5.80 pounds-35 inches OA Made From 1985 to 19991 Price: $825 Colt AR-15A2 Sporter II 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1985 to 1989 Price: $1095 Colt AR-15 Sporter Competition H-Bar 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1991 to Date Price: $850 Colt AR-15 Sporter Match Target Lightweight 223 Remington, 7.62x39mm Russian & 9mm Parabellum-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 16.0 inch barrel-6.70 to 7.10 pounds-34.5-35.5 inch OA Made From 1991 to Date Price: $750 ($585 for 9mm P) Colt AR-15A2 Sporter Target Rifle 223 Remington-5, 20 & 30 round box magazines 20.0 inch barrel-7.50 pounds-39.0 inch OA Made From 1993 to Date Price: $825 Daewoo DR200 223 Remington-6, 20 & 30 round box magazines 18.30 inch barrel-9.0 pounds-39.20 inch OA Made From 1995 to Date Price: $535 Eagle Arms M-15A4 223 Remington-30 round box magazine 16.0 inch barrel-6.20 pounds-30.0 inch OA Price: $1160 LR 300 SR Light Sport 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazine 16.25 inch barrel-7.2 pounds-36.0 inch OA Made From 1996 To Date Price: $2550 M-1 Carbine (Iver Johnson, National Ordnance, Plainfield) 223 Remington-5, 15 & 30 round box magazines 18.0 inch barrell / 6.0 pounds Manufacutred by Iver Johnson (Late 1970's to Early 1990's), Johnson Arms (Mid 1960's) & Plainfield (1960 to late 1970's) Price: $350 Olmpyic Arms PCR-4 223 Remington-10, 20 & 30 round box magazine 20.0 inch barrel-8.50 pounds-38.25 iinch OA Made From 1994 to Date Price: $792 Ruger Mini-14 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.50 pounds Made From 1976 to Date Price: $400 Ruger Mini-14/5F (Folding Stock) 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.50 pounds Made From 1976 to Date Price: $550 Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle 223 Remington-5, 10, 20 round box magazines 18.50 inch barrel-6.25 pounds Price: $504 Valmet Hunter 223 Remington-20 & 30 round box magazines 20.5 inch barrel-8.0 pounds-42 inch OA Made From 1986 to Early 1990's Price: $755 Wacky Y2k survivalist-types and ecoterrorists might select something that matches those two parameters for maximum scrougability and availability, but not select an AR for cost and form factor reasons. I seem to recall at least a Mini/14 variant that met them, but I can't find any kind of documentation of its existence... It should also be noted that many survivalist & racist groups advocated in the 80's their members purchasing M-1 Garands, H&K 91 Rifles as well as 22 LR rifles. Thanx!! Hope The List Above Helps T.R. -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 - --------------93008DA6E0A304C0E37E84A6-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:34:56 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. i am think of using one of these in my game. it is on pg 75 of the sov tank guide. my question is has anyone used them before and how? and how many tanks or trucks etc can it carry as i can't find anywhere where it says. apart from 150 men. thanks aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:34:56 -0600 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. I used the KvP-121 a few times in an Alaskan Twilight:2000 game. In one case it was ignored by the players and basically served as "dressing" for a Soviet-controlled area. In the other case, the PCs hijacked it and used it to cover a great deal of terrain quickly when they were being pursued. It ended up getting shot up a lot and hastily abandoned once they outran their pursuers. It is a very large target. I'm not sure about the number of tanks or trucks it can carry, as it is a fictional vehicle, but I would guess it could be compared to the real-world Aist-class (four PT-76 or one light tank and 220 troops) or Lebed-class (one or two PT-76 or 120 troops and about 45 tons of cargo) hovercraft. I think there are probably some web sites with pictures...if I find one, I'll post the link. - -Rob Fugitivus wrote: > i am think of using one of these in my game. it is on pg 75 of the sov > tank guide. my question is has anyone used them before and how? and how many > tanks or trucks etc can it carry as i can't find anywhere where it says. > apart from 150 men. > > thanks > aaron > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:33:39 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Fw: Prisoners - -----Original Message----- From: Jim & Peta Lawrie To: T2K forum Date: Thursday, 9 December 1999 12:32 Subject: Prisoners > Anyone who has played with me knows I'm pretty vocal about one thing in >particular, Prisoners. I'm Very against T2K PC's killing prisoners out of >hand, torturing them for information and other revolting stuff like that and >it's not because I'm a bleeding-heart-liberal. Players quite often seem to >think it's okay though and I'll tell you why, > They're thinking like civilians. > Serving troops develop a grudging respect for the guy in the other >uniform and often have more in common with each other than they do between >even themselves and their own officers. Note that I don't include a certain >amount of physical beating, I'm talking murder and torture. Historically >even the Waffen SS and the Soviets took each other prisoner. The Serbians >and the Iraqi's, not the worlds biggest fans of the US, didn't shoot US >troops out of hand because they were soldiers and it could easily be you >standing there with your hands up. Of course in every war prisoners get >shot, tortured and generally abused but the hard facts show that its usually >been the REMFs and civilians (who are keen to show how patriotic they are >but not keen enough to join up) who are to blame. Certain fanatic sections >of each army a liable to these offences, the SS, Soviet Commissars etc are >well documented as prisoner murderers but they aren't REAL soldiers. > Demonisation apart, the average grunt in any war is always a young guy >who'd much rather be home chasing girls and if you fight someone for four >years you come to understand this. > So who does this in the Twilight war? Marauders for one, these guys >aren't usually real soldiers to start with, they're draftees and prison >scrapings that get loose. Paramilitary groups are the worst though, good old >ethnic cleansing is their main bag and heaven help any foreign soldier who >falls into their hands. In T2K these would be Polish ZOMO and Soviet >Interior Ministry paramilitaries, administered by Internal Security >departments and armed like soldiers and it's THESE who players would be >unlikely to extend quarter to. > Jim. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:53:31 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Injecting some realism into T2K I really like T2K except that the last two versions wrecked it, before you tear my head off and kick it across the room I'd better tell you why. Your friends come round to play and they put their PCs on the table, you've got three special forces LTC's, a couple of SAS Majors etc. Its ludicrous and pathetic. The players have a point though, T2K is the most dangerous game for a PC ever written, even in the strangely watered-down WW3 world. As per the rules, nothing else will survive. The great majority of combatants in a world war are people like you and me turned soldier but in T2k versions 2.0 and 2.2 you haven't a snowballs chance of surviving with the skills your going to get. This is strange because those grunts are the most skilled soldiers in the world, they've graduated from the school of World War Three. You can't train that sort of experience, so to make it possible to play interesting Privates try this: When WAR! occurs and your players get one more term, give them the following skill points as well. (This is for version 2.0, it should be easy to make up a version 2.2 set.) Foraging 2 Heavy Weapons 3 Instruction 1 Leadership 2 Mechanic 1 Medical 2 Mountaineering 2 Navigation 1 Observation 3 Scrounging 2 Small Arms 4 (Pistol or Rifle but not both.) Stealth 4 Swimming 2 Thrown Weapon 3 (grenades, the infantrymans artillery) Tracked Vehicle 1 Wheeled Vehicle 2 These WAR! skills are on top of everything the book gives you but there is a Strict limit of 8 on any skill, they can play for the rest. Now the guys don't have to be Snake Eater Generals to get some decent skills. Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:20:33 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. Actually, Russia has the Zubr class hovercraft which is much larger than the Aist or Lebed, and which it is currently marketing. It can carry 3 full size MBTs or 8 BMPs. Here's a link: http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/zubr/index.html By the way if anyone knows of any web info on other hovercraft, please let us all know, Josh __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:42:41 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners At 12:33 AM 12/9/99 +1100, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > >> Serving troops develop a grudging respect for the guy in the other >>uniform and often have more in common with each other than they do between >>even themselves and their own officers. Note that I don't include a certain >>amount of physical beating, I'm talking murder and torture. Historically >>even the Waffen SS and the Soviets took each other prisoner. Actually, my understanding was that, no, the Soviets wouldn't take SS troops prisoner. The Serbians >>and the Iraqi's, not the worlds biggest fans of the US, didn't shoot US >>troops out of hand because they were soldiers and it could easily be you >>standing there with your hands up. Of course in every war prisoners get >>shot, tortured and generally abused but the hard facts show that its >usually >>been the REMFs and civilians (who are keen to show how patriotic they are >>but not keen enough to join up) who are to blame. Certain fanatic sections >>of each army a liable to these offences, the SS, Soviet Commissars etc are >>well documented as prisoner murderers but they aren't REAL soldiers. This may be true as a generalization, but I'd be careful with it: for example, one group of U.S. units notorious for shooting prisoners was the Ranger battalions operating on the Western Front (it had something to do with revenge for something or other). >> Demonisation apart, the average grunt in any war is always a young guy >>who'd much rather be home chasing girls and if you fight someone for four >>years you come to understand this. >> So who does this in the Twilight war? Marauders for one, these guys >>aren't usually real soldiers to start with, they're draftees and prison >>scrapings that get loose. Paramilitary groups are the worst though, good >old >>ethnic cleansing is their main bag and heaven help any foreign soldier who >>falls into their hands. In T2K these would be Polish ZOMO and Soviet >>Interior Ministry paramilitaries, administered by Internal Security >>departments and armed like soldiers and it's THESE who players would be >>unlikely to extend quarter to. Would the normal rules still apply when you no longer have organized armies? Behaving properly toward the other side only has _direct_ benefits when you can expect that that behavior will be communicated to soldiers of that side, so that they'll treat you properly in the future. If you're fighting with one enemy army one day and another the next, this tends to break down--though it might still be true within ongoing local wars (which might, in fact, include marauders). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:23:30 PST From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners >From: Scott David Orr > >Would the normal rules still apply when you no longer have organized >armies? Behaving properly toward the other side only has _direct_ benefits >when you can expect that that behavior will be communicated to soldiers of >that side, so that they'll treat you properly in the future. If you're >fighting with one enemy army one day and another the next, this tends to >break down--though it might still be true within ongoing local wars (which >might, in fact, include marauders). Also remember that, in WWII, it was considered treason for a Russian soldier to surrender -- so any Soviet POWs returned after the war were either shot as traitors or sent to Siberia. In addition, Germany, overall, treated American and British POWs _much_ better than their Russian counterparts. In T2K, the treatment of prisoners really does only apply if potential prisoners know about your reputaion for their treatment -- if you use POWs for target practice, expect a lot of fights to the death -- which will cost you more casualties and muntions than normal. A generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:13:33 EST From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners In a message dated 12/8/99 3:35:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, copeab@hotmail.com writes: << Also remember that, in WWII, it was considered treason for a Russian soldier to surrender -- so any Soviet POWs returned after the war were either shot as traitors or sent to Siberia. >> And, during WWII, it was considered dishonorable by the Imperial Japanese to surrender... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:20:59 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. that is what my first plan was. to add to the scenery. aaron >In one case it was ignored by the players and basically served as "dressing" for a > Soviet-controlled area *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:21:51 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: KvP-121 big ass hovercraft. thanks for the link. and to all who replied. your time is appreciated. aaron > Actually, Russia has the Zubr class hovercraft which is much > larger than the Aist or Lebed, and which it is currently > marketing. It can carry 3 full size MBTs or 8 BMPs. > > Here's a link: > > http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/zubr/index.html > > By the way if anyone knows of any web info on other hovercraft, > please let us all know, > > Josh > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:57:07 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Fw: Prisoners >Would the normal rules still apply when you no longer have organized >armies? Behaving properly toward the other side only has _direct_ benefits >when you can expect that that behavior will be communicated to soldiers of >that side, so that they'll treat you properly in the future. If you're >fighting with one enemy army one day and another the next, this tends to >break down--though it might still be true within ongoing local wars (which >might, in fact, include marauders). >Scott Orr Good Point, It does raise the question that the armies have had fifty years to place structures that would survive a Nuclear War (and the T2K setting isn't REALLY a Nuke War, there's no ground water poisoning, fallout, etc. Everyone seem to have got off lightly considering the weapons used. Yes, huge numbers of people died but the enviroment still supports life.) The Germans had functioning units during the Siege of Berlin, at the very end of their tether and reportedly cost the Soviets 600,000 casualties in that one battle. An unlikely result from bands of PCs. Most of the Germans cities were rubble at this point. Also we shouldn't move very quickly and neither should the enemy, especially if you have to cook fuel. Troops Should get to know the "Unit Character" of the local opposition. They are liable to be there for the winter, just like you. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:55:21 +0800 From: "Ballistix" Subject: Re: Injecting some realism into T2K Ever thought of just making it harder to get into those areas you mentioned?. Think about it in real life. Getting into special forces is like going through hell and back. Even then there is no guarantee that your going to be accepted if you do meet the criteria. If you made the criteria harder, maybe even including a roll if the stat pre requisites are met. Also make sure that the PC had to have military background first. Officers require a higher roll to get in, or even a requirement for leadership to be at a certain level. that's my 2 cents on the matter anyway. Ballistix *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:49:41 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: Re: Injecting some realism into T2K my gm issued rank. no one wanted command of the unit od merc's so i took it as a mjor. most of the other pc's are LT. we have a yank infantry who specialised in demolitions. a polish aircraft mech i took the german moutain troop. so there is a little variety. the thing i didn't like was damage sometimes. i got caught with just my pistol and had a devil of a time getting out of it even though i hit the guy twice. aaron *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:06:29 -0500 From: "Fugitivus" Subject: scorpion light tank. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BF41EA.0212C340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my gm has given us a scorpion light tank, but we have no stats for it. i = was thinking of offering the stats for the m2 bradley as a subsitute. = are they close enough do you guys think? regards aaron - ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BF41EA.0212C340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable my gm has given us a scorpion light = tank, but we=20 have no stats for it. i was thinking of offering the stats for the m2 = bradley as=20 a subsitute. are they close enough do you guys think? regards aaron - ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01BF41EA.0212C340-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #74 ************************************