twilight2000-digest Tuesday, November 2 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 072 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Hanoi Jane "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms RE: "PACT" Sporting Arms The Pope Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: The Pope RE: "PACT" Sporting Arms Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope Re: The Pope ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:03:05 EDT From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: Re: Hanoi Jane This is in reply to Jim's moving, and most accurate, dissertation on "Commierella". She is a traitor and a disgrace to anyone who as ever put on a uniform in service to the U.S.A. I don't think anymore really needs to be said; just a quiet salute to all those POW/MIA/KIA's. You are not forgotten. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 20:19:59 EDT From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: "PACT" Sporting Arms One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater campaign is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 19:48:08 -0700 From: bob blanchard Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms At 08:19 PM 10/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater campaign >is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I >usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to >add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find >any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a >communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do >state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? >What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? Most likely a, BRNO CZ 452 5 shot .22lr or a Russian Baikal over/under 12ga shotgun. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 21:37:02 -0600 From: rogue09@sprynet.com Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Calibur1@aol.com wrote: > One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater campaign > is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I > usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to > add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find > any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a > communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do > state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? > What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? Here's some websites to browse... both Polish and Russian sites http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/4050/ http://mehzavod.ru/index1.html http://izhmash.udm.ru/ http://ia.vpk.ru/vpkrus/homes/h109/index.htm http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/ Unfortunatly the only Polish Firearms site I know of which ocvered weapons from WWII to modern times seems to be down, so I can't give you that one. That's all I can think of for the moment site wise-if I think of anymore I'll let you know. T.R. - -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." - --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 23:45:53 -0400 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms > At 08:19 PM 10/30/99 -0400, you wrote: > >One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater > campaign > >is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I > >usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to > >add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find > >any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a > >communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do > >state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? > >What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? > > > Most likely a, BRNO CZ 452 5 shot .22lr > or a Russian Baikal over/under 12ga shotgun. It's a tough question to answer but from what little I know, I've heard that in the old USSR, it was quite easy (by Communist country standards) to get a hunting rifle or a shotgun especially if you lived out in the "boonies." Of course, compared to us, there would still be a lot of red tape and registration and of course, as long as you're not one of the select groups of "troublemakers." I guess most arms over there would be like double-barrelled shotguns, single shot rifles/shotguns, and bolt action rifles. I know in the TW2K rulebooks, they say the lever action 30-30 was common in Eastern Europe but I don't know how true it is. I guess you'd have a lot of .22LR's running about, 7.92mm Mausers (Eastern Europe), maybe 7.62X54R Nagants I guess. I've read one article where in the USSR, they sold a semi-auto hunting rifle verson of the SVD in 9mmX54R caliber. I don't know anything about that caliber though. Chuck DE KA3WRW "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:21:23 +1100 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms - -----Original Message----- From: Calibur1@aol.com To: twilight2000@mpgn.com Date: Sunday, 31 October 1999 11:22 Subject: "PACT" Sporting Arms >One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater campaign >is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I >usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to >add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find >any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a >communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do >state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? >What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? I use a system in which Regulars are just that, ORMO range from patriotic elite units to Timor-style militias, WOP (Border Guards) are a semi elite light infantry and ZOMO are a paramilitary organisation run by the Internal Security Ministry which is so SS that the regulars hate them. NATO spends large amount of resources destroying ZOMO units. As the war has gone on for so long I allow AK-47's for nearly everyone, old SKS and Nagants are also ubiquitous. The usual array of shotguns etc for Enraged Rabble but even these would have a high proportion of ex-military arms. Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:48:05 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: "PACT" Sporting Arms > ---------- > From: Jim > As the war has gone on for so long I allow AK-47's for nearly everyone, > old SKS and Nagants are also ubiquitous. The usual array of shotguns etc > for > Enraged Rabble but even these would have a high proportion of ex-military > arms. I agree w/ Jim here completely. US veterans have written in their memoirs that during the Vietnam war they could buy any sort of small arm on the black market as long as they traded in hard US currency and not the monthly issued Military script "money". (Military script, that expired every month, was issued to curb black marketeering.) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:37:52 -0000 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: The Pope I'm running a T2K campaign set in Poland, it follows on from the "Escape from Kalisz" scnerio provided with v1 of the game. I'm bouncing a few ideas around for the Pope to make an excursion from his hiding place to his place of birth in Poland. The excuse being something to do with the run up to the new Millenium or such like. I've had a long running idea for lots of religious groups to be springing up around this time and the appearance of the Pope could be a spark that would set a few other things off. What I'm wondering is do people have any opinions on if he would still be guarded by Swiss troops, what he would travel in and how they would be armed/equiped? Regards, Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:58:04 -0700 From: rogue09@sprynet.com Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms Calibur1@aol.com wrote: > One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater campaign > is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I > usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to > add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find > any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a > communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do > state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? > What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? The Polish Firearms page I mentioned earlier is back up so I'm including the link here: http://hem2.passagen.se/dadkri/index.htm Until Later T.R. - -- *************************************************************** "What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" "Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know for the chance to watch a long time ago..." - --Len Kaminski (Writer) Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:03:53 +0000 From: Eddie Hallahan Subject: Re: "PACT" Sporting Arms nice page EddieH At 16:58 01/11/99 , you wrote: >Calibur1@aol.com wrote: > > > One annoying dilemma I've come across while running a Polish theater > campaign > > is that my players have come up against armed civilians and militia. I > > usually arm them with generic sporting rifles and shotguns. I would like to > > add a little realism to my campaign by naming the weapons, but I can't find > > any information on "Iron Curtain" sporting arms. I figured that in a > > communist country civilian ownership of firearms is illegal, but what do > > state authorized hunters use? What about sporting arms produced for export? > > What would the typical Polish civilian or ORMO be armed with anyway? > >The Polish Firearms page I mentioned earlier is back up so I'm including >the link >here: > >http://hem2.passagen.se/dadkri/index.htm > >Until Later > >T.R. > > >-- >*************************************************************** >"What about the truth? What about the public's right to know?!" >"Oh, come on don't give me that... The public traded the right to know >for the >chance to watch a long time ago..." > >--Len Kaminski (Writer) >Ghost Rider: 2099 #6 > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:48:24 PST From: "matthew henley" Subject: Re: The Pope first I as the majority of swiss guards come from a long family line(we are talking decades in some cases) that his body gard would at least contain a core of swiss. How ever there are only about 150 swiss guard(kind of a estimate of the top of my head) and you could probley add a large number of other natenalties to them. As for weapons ether Italian military or police(swat), ore you could have a lot of old weapons that they had stock piled from the old days when they were armed. Jest say that when they were disarmed in the 1960s(again I can't rember the exact date off the top of my head) they stored all there supplies insted of disposing of them incase of emergencies. >I'm running a T2K campaign set in Poland, it follows on from the "Escape >from Kalisz" scnerio provided with v1 of the game. > >I'm bouncing a few ideas around for the Pope to make an excursion from his >hiding place to his place of birth in Poland. The excuse being something >to >do with the run up to the new Millenium or such like. I've had a long >running idea for lots of religious groups to be springing up around this >time and the appearance of the Pope could be a spark that would set a few >other things off. > >What I'm wondering is do people have any opinions on if he would still be >guarded by Swiss troops, what he would travel in and how they would be >armed/equiped? > >Regards, > >Mark > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:48:06 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: "PACT" Sporting Arms At 07:48 AM 11/1/99 -0500, Garcia, Abel wrote: >(Military script, that expired every month, >was issued to curb black marketeering.) Just a minor quibble: "scrip"; it's not a word that comes up much. :) Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:52:09 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: The Pope At 01:37 PM 11/1/99 -0000, Mark Oliver wrote: >I'm running a T2K campaign set in Poland, it follows on from the "Escape >from Kalisz" scnerio provided with v1 of the game. > >I'm bouncing a few ideas around for the Pope to make an excursion from his >hiding place to his place of birth in Poland. The excuse being something to >do with the run up to the new Millenium or such like. I've had a long >running idea for lots of religious groups to be springing up around this >time and the appearance of the Pope could be a spark that would set a few >other things off. > >What I'm wondering is do people have any opinions on if he would still be >guarded by Swiss troops, what he would travel in and how they would be >armed/equiped? > The "Swiss Guard" that guards the Pope is I think mostly Italian nowadays--but I'm sure they'd still be guarding him if he were alive. I'm sure they'd be armed with essentially anything they could maintain and man, since there are still bound to be lots of devout Catholics willing to help out. Of course, he's likely to be in _very_ ill health, and this is going to pose great complications for travel. Even today, his health is not very good, and the medical treatment and living conditions are much better than they would be in TW2K--in fact, people have speculated that the main reason the Pope went along with the stupid (that is, factually incorrect) idea that the year 2000 begins the millenium is because he was afraid he wouldn't live to see 2001. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 19:02:54 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: The Pope At 11:48 AM 11/1/99 PST, matthew henley wrote: >first I as the majority of swiss guards come from a long family line(we are >talking decades in some cases) that his body gard would at least contain a >core of swiss. How ever there are only about 150 swiss guard(kind of a >estimate of the top of my head) and you could probley add a large number of >other natenalties to them. As for weapons ether Italian military or >police(swat), ore you could have a lot of old weapons that they had stock >piled from the old days when they were armed. Jest say that when they were >disarmed in the 1960s(again I can't rember the exact date off the top of my >head) they stored all there supplies insted of disposing of them incase of >emergencies. > If the Swiss Guard was disarmed (I vaguely remember this), who does the Vatican security now? Whether it's called "Swiss Guard" or not, I'm sure the same people would be doing it in TW2K. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:47:57 -0000 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: Re: The Pope In reply to Scott Orr <<< The "Swiss Guard" that guards the Pope is I think mostly Italian nowadays >>> Any idea if they are part of the regular Italian army or are pretty much a law to themselves? My only real info on the "Swiss Guard" was a Tom Clancy novel which had as being literally Swiss, not sure how "real" this is. My run with that image anyway as it's a bit more vivid. <<< he's likely to be in _very_ ill health, and this is going to pose great complications for travel. >>> Possibly another motivation for the trip then. Any opinions on how he would travel? Some kind of convoy presumeably with the facilities to distill alcohol and thus keep on the move. Either that or they could have a tap into a petrol supply. My other thoughts would then be on the locals reaction to his passing. I'd certainly want lots of smaller religious cults popping up raising problems but you wonder how the majority of the population would see him. Maybe they wouldn't care much either way. Maybe it would galvanise them into some form of action. I also wonder if the Pope would take sides over the recent fighting. <<< the medical treatment and living conditions are much better than they would be in TW2K >>> Well we do know the Vatican to be very wealthy indeed plus there's also the devotion to him from the Catholics of any area he's staying in. I'm sure that whatever is available he would have access to. The other option I have bandied around is of a funeral party taking the Popes body home. However not only is that a bit grim and unpleasant but it also takes away some of the oppurtunities to play with the reactions of the various factions to the passing of the Pope. Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:51:12 -0000 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: Re: The Pope In reply to Matthew <<< first I as the majority of swiss guards come from a long family line(we are talking decades in some cases) >>> That's actually nice to know, it adds even more loyalty to the continued defence of the Pope even in those troubled times. <<< you could probley add a large number of other natenalties to them. >>> Certainly. When most nations have collapsed the Pope would certainly be something that people would rally around. Something to fight for and believe in. Regards, Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:00:03 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: The Pope - ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott David Orr To: Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Re: The Pope << SNIP >> > If the Swiss Guard was disarmed (I vaguely remember this), who does the > Vatican security now? Whether it's called "Swiss Guard" or not, I'm sure > the same people would be doing it in TW2K. > > Scott Orr > *************************************************************************** I remember reading a story about the Swiss Guard (back in the 1970's) where they do have three submachine guns at the ready in case if the Vatican has any intruders. I really don't know how true it is but I would the Pope would have much more security than that as you said in one of your other messages. Here's an interesting scenario. Since the current Pope, John-Paul II, is in ill-health and if we had that same Pope in the TW2K timeline, if he should pass away, it would pose a problem for getting all the College of Cardinals together to vote for another one since the transportation and communication system we currently have would not exists. I remember reading in various times in history where you had various "anti-Popes" who were "elected" by a renegade body or self-appointed in protest over something or another. Maybe the Catholic Church has some sort of doctrine to handle situations where there is no Pope but I am not familiar with any of that. I'm not fostering any religious controversy but I'd like to know how this situation could be handled in a world like TW2K. Chuck, the ever curious.... DE KA3WRW "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 11:15:10 -0600 From: Rob Barnes Subject: Re: The Pope I found the following in an old issue of Challenge Magazine (#42). It was in an article about Italy after the Twilight War (for 2300AD players): "Naturally defensible Perugia became the retreat of what was left of the papacy during World War III and has remained the papal city ever since." Also, I found the following info about the Swiss Guard: Founded in 1506 by the warrior pontiff Julius II, the Swiss Guard is a small, elite troop charged with ensuring the Pope's protection. As the Vatican's domestic security service, it boasts a remarkably unblemished record in its almost 500-year-old history. Known as the Svizzeri, the highly colourful unit has its origins in the Swiss mercenaries and, to this day, continues to be one of the world's smallest armies. There are 120 guards at full strength. They must be Roman Catholic, bachelors aged between 18 and 30 (except for senior officers) and, of course, Swiss. The pay is œ16,000 a year for the commander and up to œ8,000 for the rank and file. It is considered an "honour to serve the Pope" and the guards formally vow to "sacrifice our lives" if necessary. Despite the theatrical uniforms of plumed helmets and glittering breastplates and the attraction provided for camera-toting tourists in the Vatican City, the Swiss Guard is a highly-trained unit, well versed in crowd control and in single combat, including the martial arts. They celebrate their feast day every month of May, marking the tragedy of 1527 when the crack regiment of Swiss mercenaries defended Pope Clement VII against the invading forces of Charles V. On that day, 147 of the Guard perished on the walls of the Vatican at the hands of German and Spanish soldiers. Each year, on May 6, some 40 new recruits are sworn in at a colourful ceremony in the Courtyard of Saint Damaso, the enclosed square _ concealed from visitors _ around which the Pope's apartments and his advisors' offices are ranged. In the run-up to the week, hotels near the Vatican fill up with the young soldiers' relatives for an event considered well worth the journey from Switzerland. Today, the corps remains the only military body not axed in 1970, when Pope Paul VI introduced various reforms. Until this May, they did well. For centuries no murders had been committed within the precincts of the Vatican State. While the Swiss Guard is considered highly adept, its record can also be partly attributed to the pacific nature of the tiny statelet. The ornate tree which features on their helmets is that of the Delle Rovere family into which Pope Julius was born. The Guard continued to be a fighting force until 1825, when it became the Pope's domestic security service. Its members are recruited only from the Catholic cantons of Switzerland. Recruits sign up for two years, but can only stay on for as long as 30 years. The present 100-strong force is led by a Commandant Captain, a Lieutenant and two Under-Lieutenants. The rank and file soldiers are known as halberdiers, as they carry halberds in many of their ceremonial functions. At such times, they wear the distinctive slashed doublet and hose which is often claimed to have been designed by Michelangelo. The alternative theory is that the doublet and hose actually date from 1914. Dressed in a more sober, but equally anachronistic outfit of dark cape and beret, Swiss Guards control the main entrance to the Vatican, the Porta Angelica, and carry out other security duties. In plain clothes, they protect the pontiff on his trips outside the Vatican. The information above indicates that the Swiss Guard are not Italian. They are not a part of the Italian military. Actually, the Tom Clancy version may not be too far from the truth here. As to why and how the Pope would be travelling to Poland: I would imagine that, while the Pope does have a lot of monetary power, his access to things like aircraft and armored vehicles would be somewhat limited after the events of Twilight:2000. I doubt that beyond acting as a bodyguard, the Swiss Guard would have access to a very large stockpile of weapons or supplies, as surviving the Apocalypse through force of arms would be sort of contrary to the generally-accepted Christian thinking about the "end times". However, it seems reasonable to assume that they would be fairly well equipped on an individual basis, and maybe even have secured the aid of some elements of the Italian military, such as it may remain in Twilight:2000. I suspect the Pope would travel only after a secure route had been planned, and guarantees of safe passage negotiated (or bought) in advance. It would probably be a well-guarded convoy of vehicles carrying enough fuel to make it from one secure location to the next without stopping to distill. In fact, they may even have acquired gasoline through some method. If I were the commander of the Swiss Guard under those circumstances, I would want to dispatch several scouts to select a promising route and warn me of potential problems. Parties of American troops in Poland might initally encounter a well-guarded papal envoy. Depending on the circumstances, they might be offered employment as additional guards, messengers, scouts, etc. A whole series of adventures could be made out of simply planning such a trip. However, I doubt the current Pope would risk such a journey for anything but the most serious of reasons. It would be highly irresponsible for the Pope to do so simply because it was his homeland, or that he was ill, so I would give some thought to what "secret agenda" might be behind the trip. As far as a funeral party goes, that is an interesting idea, but as far as I know, all popes are laid to rest in Rome by tradition. Of course, if Rome got nuked, that could complicate things. Choosing a new pope might generate some interesting adventures, as well. - -Rob Mark Oliver wrote: > In reply to Scott Orr > > <<< The "Swiss Guard" that guards the Pope is I think mostly Italian > nowadays >>> > > Any idea if they are part of the regular Italian army or are pretty much a > law to themselves? > > My only real info on the "Swiss Guard" was a Tom Clancy novel which had as > being literally Swiss, not sure how "real" this is. My run with that image > anyway as it's a bit more vivid. > > <<< he's likely to be in _very_ ill health, and this is going to pose great > complications for travel. >>> > > Possibly another motivation for the trip then. > > Any opinions on how he would travel? > > Some kind of convoy presumeably with the facilities to distill alcohol and > thus keep on the move. Either that or they could have a tap into a petrol > supply. > > My other thoughts would then be on the locals reaction to his passing. I'd > certainly want lots of smaller religious cults popping up raising problems > but you wonder how the majority of the population would see him. Maybe they > wouldn't care much either way. Maybe it would galvanise them into some form > of action. I also wonder if the Pope would take sides over the recent > fighting. > > <<< the medical treatment and living conditions are much better than they > would be in TW2K >>> > > Well we do know the Vatican to be very wealthy indeed plus there's also the > devotion to him from the Catholics of any area he's staying in. I'm sure > that whatever is available he would have access to. > > The other option I have bandied around is of a funeral party taking the > Popes body home. However not only is that a bit grim and unpleasant but it > also takes away some of the oppurtunities to play with the reactions of the > various factions to the passing of the Pope. > > Mark > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com > with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:31:49 -0000 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: Re: The Pope - ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Mandus To: Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 5:00 PM Subject: Re: The Pope <<< I remember reading in various times in history where you had various "anti-Popes" >>> I've got an old magazine at home which contains an article for an old game called Pendragon if I recall. In that game you controlled entire dynasties and this article contained rules for a member of that family to set themselves up as an anti-pope. I had forgottong about it but I'll have a look at it, I'll mail up any useful information if I find it. I'm sure it also had rules for what happens following the death of a Pope. Again if I find it I'll pass it on. Regards, Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:56:22 PST From: "matthew henley" Subject: Re: The Pope it is still the swiss guards, they jest don't have guns. I don't now about any actule secrity guards thay might have thay could be armed. the guard is still go through miltary traing and learn hand to hand combat nad thay might cary no letahal wepons. matt >From: Scott David Orr >Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com >Subject: Re: The Pope >Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 19:02:54 -0500 > >At 11:48 AM 11/1/99 PST, matthew henley wrote: > >first I as the majority of swiss guards come from a long family line(we >are > >talking decades in some cases) that his body gard would at least contain >a > >core of swiss. How ever there are only about 150 swiss guard(kind of a > >estimate of the top of my head) and you could probley add a large number >of > >other natenalties to them. As for weapons ether Italian military or > >police(swat), ore you could have a lot of old weapons that they had stock > >piled from the old days when they were armed. Jest say that when they >were > >disarmed in the 1960s(again I can't rember the exact date off the top of >my > >head) they stored all there supplies insted of disposing of them incase >of > >emergencies. > > >If the Swiss Guard was disarmed (I vaguely remember this), who does the >Vatican security now? Whether it's called "Swiss Guard" or not, I'm sure >the same people would be doing it in TW2K. > >Scott Orr >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:04:56 PST From: "matthew henley" Subject: Re: The Pope >Any idea if they are part of the regular Italian army or are pretty much a >law to themselves? thay answer only to the vatican(rember that vatican city is a sepreat contrey when you enter it you "levea Italiy") >My only real info on the "Swiss Guard" was a Tom Clancy novel which had as >being literally Swiss, not sure how "real" this is. My run with that image >anyway as it's a bit more vivid. thay are swiss one of the requirments as I uderstarnd it to get in the guard is that it has to run in your family(this is the afical line as I understand it) >The other option I have bandied around is of a funeral party taking the >Popes body home. However not only is that a bit grim and unpleasant but it >also takes away some of the oppurtunities to play with the reactions of the >various factions to the passing of the Pope. >Mark however if the pope has died that mens that a nother one must be raised- the start of sevral wars bothe small and not so small. Matt >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:14:58 PST From: "matthew henley" Subject: Re: The Pope as for the doctrine -there is a Pope end of sentice-. If the curint one has died than a new one is apinted(this however can take a long time and as you pointed out lead to anti pops and other scizems) the day to day runing of thae cherch dosen't need the Popes input, but thare can be no now canges of doctirine butifcasan of saints aponting of cardnals or proclumatons of pirty much anthing. matt ps. I am sorry for the spelling I am doing this on the fly >Here's an interesting scenario. Since the current Pope, John-Paul II, is >in ill-health and if we had that same Pope in the TW2K timeline, if he >should pass away, it would pose a problem for getting all the College of >Cardinals together to vote for another one since the transportation and >communication system we currently have would not exists. I remember >reading >in various times in history where you had various "anti-Popes" who were >"elected" by a renegade body or self-appointed in protest over something or >another. Maybe the Catholic Church has some sort of doctrine to handle >situations where there is no Pope but I am not familiar with any of that. >I'm not fostering any religious controversy but I'd like to know how this >situation could be handled in a world like TW2K. > >Chuck, the ever curious.... > >DE KA3WRW > >"Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." > >-- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been >cancelled. > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #72 ************************************