twilight2000-digest Monday, August 2 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 059 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Re: Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) Re: ROTC Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Taiwan Revisited Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Dirty Referee Tricks Frank Freys' Air Modules Re: Dirty Referee Tricks test, ignore ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:22:16 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Snake Eyes wrote: > At 03:17 PM 7/30/99 +1000, Jim Lawrie wrote: > > > I've got this really cool can-opener recently, it grabs the can and cuts > >the top of it rather than just gouging a groove in the top. > > I'm sorry if this is not interesting but I find this relentless shit > >just as boring. > > Yeah, I've got the Safety-Can AND the EuroSealer. I get far more use out > of the former than the latter. I soon hope to acquire the little doodad > that lets you carve up grapefruits. > > ~ Snake Eyes This silly thread has given me an idea for an adventure in the Twilight future. The PCs hear of a weapon of great power from the old civilization. They search for months to find it. There are several tribes fighting over it. Finally they find it. It is the grapefruit knife. But don't tell them that. Let them have the joy of trying to figure it out as you describe it as a curved, serrated blade. "Yes... yes... I CAN imagine it... its its... a GRAPEFRUIT knife!?!" Maybe-- . If you're lucky you'll get a kick-- or probably several in the rear- out of it. Also on the subject of appliances I bought a firecracker kit from x10.com last week and I love it. I can turn on my stereo and lamp from a web page too. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:38:10 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) At 05:56 PM 7/31/99 -0400, Scott Orr wrote: >I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about role-playing games; evidently >you tell stories and invite the players to attend in order to admire your >technique (sort of like the way people go to baseball games to watch the >umpires). If they like that, fine.... OK. First, if I'm not mistaken, one of the definitions of role-playing is "interactive storytelling." That is the definition I use, and it involves far more than just talking at a table full of people and reaching some kind of consensus. I don't run games with no structure, and I don't like playing in a game with no structure. So, second, if that interactive story has no plot, or there is no assumed agreement or concession that the Ref will administer and engineer a plot, than there is really no need at all to even bother molding your gaming sessions around the framework of a rule system. The whole endeavor becomes nothing more than purely academic speculation or free-form association, and you may as well be hosting a group therapy session, holding a high tea or participating in a quilting circle. Third, what the hell has the world done to to make you so damn contrary? I've been on this list for around two years, and I can't remember you ever agreeing with anybody about anything, or posting more than a handful of messages that weren't intended to tell somebody else they were wrong. I understand that people in any community will have differing opinions on a variety of topics, but give it a rest, dude. People ostensibly post here to discuss Twilight & Merc: 2000, not to be crapped on by you and your bitter brand of sarcasm. Even if you must continue, please remember there is no reason not to be polite just because you have an alternate viewpoint. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 19:43:20 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) > Also on the subject of appliances I bought a firecracker kit from x10.com last > week and I love it. I can turn on my stereo and lamp from a web page too. > > -- > ([-[Peter Vieth]-) What's that? Loonz *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:00:24 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Dwight Looney wrote: > Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) > > > Also on the subject of appliances I bought a firecracker kit from x10.com > last > > week and I love it. I can turn on my stereo and lamp from a web page too. > > > > -- > > ([-[Peter Vieth]-) > > What's that? > > Loonz A house control kit. I just got the promotional kit for $7, it came with a lamp module and an appliance module. Basically you plug the lamp or appliance into the module and you can control whether it is on or off by software (theres a pass through dongle that plugs into the serial port) or by remote. The lamp modules can also be dimmed. Bad/weird things happen when you use the dimmer on a TV by the way. They have some other cool stuff but its way too expensive IMO. Theres a camera for like $130 that can be plugged into a TV or VCR and triggered on by remote or by a door bell or something. Better, and cheaper, just to look out the window I think :) I made a program to grab text from kurzweil voicepad (a voice recognition program) so you can turn stuff on by voice but it was too buggy and I haven't fixed it yet. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:03:23 -0400 From: "cell-66 Toronto" Subject: Re: Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) generally i agree. i prefer a game with a story. but i have played a couple of freeforms that worked well. but not often. in 14 years i have spent most of the time gm'ing. i have had much of the time alot of players who don't or won't gm. i used to always try and do exactly what they wanted. however if one has to do all the planing buy the products and run the game then i decided i'd do games that i like. if i have to do all the work then i'll do it my. i don't beleive players should be knocked down for not following a structure. but when a player does something really dumb and really stupid that has nothing to do with anything and can ruin all the work a gm has done then fine. gm's have to be flexible as players will always do the weridest things. i still want to steal the hind in the first tw2 modual. aaron > I don't run games with no structure, and I don't like playing in a game with no structure. p.s i hope they do tw2 like traveller. in compendiums. i have bugger all of the books and it makes it real hard to do games. ~In darkness lies often are the truth.~ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 23:49:26 EDT From: "shaari ladue" Subject: Re: ROTC From: Peter Vieth Reply-To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com To: twilight2000@mpgn.com Subject: ROTC Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 14:48:21 -0700 >anyone have comments on ROTC? heh they keep sending me mail about >college money, I just want to see what people besides their PR guys >have >to say heh Peter, I took Army ROTC for four full years during college. I didn't end up as a 2nd LT. in the Field Artillery branch as I was supposed to, but that was all my own fault, not a problem w/ the program. The first two years were kind of a "try it and see" kinda deal. I got a good look at them, and they got a look at me. I contracted my third year, did advanced camp, and did my senior year. It was, as many military experiences seem to be, both "the best of times and the worst of times". I made some friends for life, and had some of the most miserable experiences as well. In terms of the game, I got a pretty decent grounding in basic small unit tactics, and infantry operations. Admittedly, much of this was "by the book" and in training situations, but it certainly gives me an edge up on most other "civilians" I encounter. I did a lot of extra curricular ROTC stuff (Ranger Challenge Team and Cadet Rangers) so I got more out of it than the normal cadet, but I also put more into it. It sucked up a lot of my weekends and afternoons (particularly junior year) but it provided me with opportunities I would never have had anywhere else. It taught me a lot about what I thought I could do, and what I really could, and gave me basic leadership skills I'll never lose. On the whole, it's a great thing, and IMHO it sure beats going to West Point. You still get the fun part of college, and the "fun" of the military. You want to have a good GPA though, cause that's a main factor in what they'll branch you. If you have (or anyone else for that matter) further questions on ROTC (specifically Army) feel free to reply to me personally. Shaari Ladue _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 03:08:07 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) At 03:20 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >And even if the plan is a very good >one things sometimes go wrong. The players have to live with that. Otherwise you >get the feeling you're immortal and nothing is difficult anymore, so whats the >point of doing anything. > But the possibility of failure and posing a challenge are _very_ different things from _punishing_ them just because they don't do it _your_ way. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 03:35:46 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) > At 03:20 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: > >And even if the plan is a very good > >one things sometimes go wrong. The players have to live with that. > Otherwise you > >get the feeling you're immortal and nothing is difficult anymore, so whats > the > >point of doing anything. > > > But the possibility of failure and posing a challenge are _very_ different > things from _punishing_ them just because they don't do it _your_ way. > > Scott Orr Ok, hypothetical; Escape from Kalisz, you the Ref, want it to run into the Black Madonna. Well all the bridges are blown North and East save one, as usual. There are strong Pact forces north and west actively searching for stragglers. There are Strong Pact forces off to the West as usual. Rumor of Krakow is heard before hand. Your group of 6 PC's in a HMMWV and a P/U with trailers and small stills are in the woods regrouping. The group wants to go west back towards NATO, to discourage this you have them pick up radio calls of units getting over run in that direction. An NPC straggler is found who relates he saw armor in that direction. The first village tells of disease further to the west has broke out. There is no known active organized hostiles south. So to finally get them turned around. The road they need to use (forest trails have ended here) is guarded by a check point with 2 BTR 70's and about 2 dozen troops. They can also a weapons pit (probably a mortar). Then while they are watching this three 5 ton trucks of troops pull up and head into the woods they are hiding in. They have no AT except two Armbrusts and 40mm HEDP. The group decides to attack the searchers in the woods. What else could have been done to save this group before they went and got pummeled in the forest? Loonz P.S. (yes it was a actual campaign) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 03:12:23 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Settle Down (was: DIRTY TRICKS) At 03:38 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Snake Eyes wrote: >At 05:56 PM 7/31/99 -0400, Scott Orr wrote: > >>I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about role-playing games; evidently >>you tell stories and invite the players to attend in order to admire your >>technique (sort of like the way people go to baseball games to watch the >>umpires). If they like that, fine.... > >OK. First, if I'm not mistaken, one of the definitions of role-playing is >"interactive storytelling." Yes, and if you don't let the players tell part of the story--possibly in a way that you hadn't planned, it's not "interactive". >That is the definition I use, and it involves >far more than just talking at a table full of people and reaching some kind >of consensus. I don't run games with no structure, and I don't like >playing in a game with no structure. > >So, second, if that interactive story has no plot, or there is no assumed >agreement or concession that the Ref will administer and engineer a plot, >than there is really no need at all to even bother molding your gaming >sessions around the framework of a rule system. The whole endeavor becomes >nothing more than purely academic speculation or free-form association, and >you may as well be hosting a group therapy session, holding a high tea or >participating in a quilting circle. > "Plot" doesn't have to something that's arrange beforehand--it can grow out of natural interactions. >Third, what the hell has the world done to to make you so damn >contrary? I've been on this list for around two years, and I can't >remember you ever agreeing with anybody about anything, or posting more >than a handful of messages that weren't intended to tell somebody else they >were wrong. I understand that people in any community will have differing >opinions on a variety of topics, but give it a rest, dude. People >ostensibly post here to discuss Twilight & Merc: 2000, not to be crapped on >by you and your bitter brand of sarcasm. Even if you must continue, please >remember there is no reason not to be polite just because you have an >alternate viewpoint. > I'm never impolite until someone does the same to me, with your "Au contraire, Mr. Orr." Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 11:16:55 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) At 03:35 AM 8/1/99 -0400, Dwight Looney wrote: >Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) > > >> At 03:20 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >> >And even if the plan is a very good >> >one things sometimes go wrong. The players have to live with that. >> Otherwise you >> >get the feeling you're immortal and nothing is difficult anymore, so >whats >> the >> >point of doing anything. >> > >> But the possibility of failure and posing a challenge are _very_ different >> things from _punishing_ them just because they don't do it _your_ way. >> >> Scott Orr > >Ok, hypothetical; > >Escape from Kalisz, you the Ref, want it to run into the Black Madonna. >Well all the bridges are blown North and East save one, as usual. There are >strong Pact forces north and west actively searching for stragglers. There >are Strong Pact forces off to the West as usual. Rumor of Krakow is heard >before hand. > >Your group of 6 PC's in a HMMWV and a P/U with trailers and small stills are >in the woods regrouping. > >The group wants to go west back towards NATO, to discourage this you have >them pick up radio calls of units getting over run in that direction. An >NPC straggler is found who relates he saw armor in that direction. The >first village tells of disease further to the west has broke out. There is >no known active organized hostiles south. > >So to finally get them turned around. The road they need to use (forest >trails have ended here) is guarded by a check point with 2 BTR 70's and >about 2 dozen troops. They can also a weapons pit (probably a mortar). >Then while they are watching this three 5 ton trucks of troops pull up and >head into the woods they are hiding in. They have no AT except two >Armbrusts and 40mm HEDP. > >The group decides to attack the searchers in the woods. > >What else could have been done to save this group before they went and got >pummeled in the forest? > A group that does something that stupid deserves the natural consequences of their actions. This though is quite different from making up obstacles _after_ _the_ _fact_ in order to punish the players after they've gone off the track you planned. Of course, another issue is whether or not you're "railroading" the players too much: if there's really only one course of action open, only one direction to go, they might feel led by the nose, rather than actually acting on their own. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 23:18:42 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Scott David Orr wrote: > A group that does something that stupid deserves the natural consequences > of their actions. This though is quite different from making up obstacles > _after_ _the_ _fact_ in order to punish the players after they've gone off > the track you planned. > > Of course, another issue is whether or not you're "railroading" the players > too much: if there's really only one course of action open, only one > direction to go, they might feel led by the nose, rather than actually > acting on their own. I don't think any of us deny that bullying the players into following a strict storyline will ruin a campaign. However, characters doing stupid things are going to get whats coming, regardless of what you've planned. When I said "the answer" for my PCs was for them to climb in through the air ducts and open a window, that was just the easiest and most logical choice for them at that point. They could have stolen a set of keys from the janitor before closing time and just walked in. They could have shut the power to the building off, disabling the alarm. However in my campaign they were on the roof trying to get into the top story. All their others plans were extremely stupid and failed (or I talked them out of doing it not to steer them in a certain direction but because I did not want to abruptly end the campaign by having them be imprisoned for say, taking the janitor hostage). I think snake eyes summed role playing up fairly well in an earlier post. I always think of role playing in comparison to adventurecomputer games. You have a plot, characters, etc. You can control the characters. The great thing about roleplaying t2k, etc is that you aren't limited to the choices of a computer game-- like the pick up, push, pull, use, talk of monkey island. Then of course you have more freedom in the storyline but that story is an integral part of the game. There is a setting, characters, and a basic time line of what will happen in an adventure and the PCs can respond accordingly and work towards whatever goal they have. I don't doubt that you know this too so i don't fully understand this arguing (it seems to be arguing for the sake of an argument). - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 01:15:07 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) - --=====================_49657604==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:35 AM 8/1/99 -0400, Loonz wrote: >Escape from Kalisz, you the Ref, want it to run into the Black Madonna. >Well all the bridges are blown North and East save one, as usual. There are >strong Pact forces north and west actively searching for stragglers. There >are Strong Pact forces off to the West as usual. Rumor of Krakow is heard >before hand. [SNIP stupid PC tricks] >What else could have been done to save this group before they went and got >pummeled in the forest? I'd say not much, Loonz, but it's hardly hypothetical :) Every damn Kalisz scenario I ever ran (or played in) started out much the same way. This is exactly what I meant when I was talking about putting on the slap-down if the PC's don't play ball. You don't want to railroad the players too much, but on the other hand you can only drop so many hints before it's time to get medieval. Just to clarify my stance on this topic in general: While (irrespective of the title of this thread) I don't believe in cavalierly raining harm for it's own sake on the PC's just to be a prick, I do support establishment of boundaries and provision of guidance in furthering of the storyline. The interactive part of this storytelling is by definition a two-way street. I've played under a GM/Ref who was either unable or unwilling to say no, or hurt a PC, or otherwise maintain any semblance of order among the players because he was afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. I've also had to sit at a table while the jackass running the show dictated in explicit and excruciating detail every PC's actions and thoughts -- regardless of the character's stats, skills, background, or motivation -- thus negating the need for anything like dice, paper, pencils, or character sheets. Neither of these types of group is any fun to play in. Somewhere herein lies a happy medium that should be acceptable to everybody. Roleplaying involves something of a "social contract" between all the players involved. Part of that contract (in my experience) is that the GM/Ref agrees to consistently and fairly maintain order and refrains from killing the PC's out of hand -- while the PC's agree to stick to the plotline and to (at least *try* to) take the occasional hint or nudge. In a previous post I mentioned having no compunction whatsoever about using a Cobra gunship to smoke a stolen PBR full of renegade PC's. That was an extreme example of players ignoring ample warning (subtle and overt) and going too far off the previously agreed upon plotline. I viewed it as an unacceptable breach of the aforementioned contract. I would be equally pissed if I was playing in a Twilight 2000 campaign, and three sessions into it the GM/Ref decides that we get teleported back to the Dark Ages to do battle against Mongol hordes using only our wits and some crude farming implements -- quite a novel concept, but not what I signed on for. I think I've argued my point regarding "PC discipline," but as always I remain open to suggestion, comments & criticism. The original thread was a request soliciting input for "Dirty Ref Tricks." I don't remember exactly where we got off that, but the two topics are kind of complementary -- in that one man's dirty trick is another's hint to get with the program. ~ Snake Eyes - --=====================_49657604==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 03:35 AM 8/1/99 -0400, Loonz wrote: Escape from Kalisz, you the Ref, want it to run into the Black Madonna. Well all the bridges are blown North and East save one, as usual. There are strong Pact forces north and west actively searching for stragglers. There are Strong Pact forces off to the West as usual. Rumor of Krakow is heard before hand. [SNIP stupid PC tricks] What else could have been done to save this group before they went and got pummeled in the forest? I'd say not much, Loonz, but it's hardly hypothetical :) Every damn Kalisz scenario I ever ran (or played in) started out much the same way. This is exactly what I meant when I was talking about putting on the slap-down if the PC's don't play ball. You don't want to railroad the players too much, but on the other hand you can only drop so many hints before it's time to get medieval. Just to clarify my stance on this topic in general: While (irrespective of the title of this thread) I don't believe in cavalierly raining harm for it's own sake on the PC's just to be a prick, I do support establishment of boundaries and provision of guidance in furthering of the storyline. The interactive part of this storytelling is by definition a two-way street. I've played under a GM/Ref who was either unable or unwilling to say no, or hurt a PC, or otherwise maintain any semblance of order among the players because he was afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. I've also had to sit at a table while the jackass running the show dictated in explicit and excruciating detail every PC's actions and thoughts -- regardless of the character's stats, skills, background, or motivation -- thus negating the need for anything like dice, paper, pencils, or character sheets. Neither of these types of group is any fun to play in. Somewhere herein lies a happy medium that should be acceptable to everybody. Roleplaying involves something of a "social contract" between all the players involved. Part of that contract (in my experience) is that the GM/Ref agrees to consistently and fairly maintain order and refrains from killing the PC's out of hand -- while the PC's agree to stick to the plotline and to (at least *try* to) take the occasional hint or nudge. In a previous post I mentioned having no compunction whatsoever about using a Cobra gunship to smoke a stolen PBR full of renegade PC's. That was an extreme example of players ignoring ample warning (subtle and overt) and going too far off the previously agreed upon plotline. I viewed it as an unacceptable breach of the aforementioned contract. I would be equally pissed if I was playing in a Twilight 2000 campaign, and three sessions into it the GM/Ref decides that we get teleported back to the Dark Ages to do battle against Mongol hordes using only our wits and some crude farming implements -- quite a novel concept, but not what I signed on for. I think I've argued my point regarding "PC discipline," but as always I remain open to suggestion, comments & criticism. The original thread was a request soliciting input for "Dirty Ref Tricks." I don't remember exactly where we got off that, but the two topics are kind of complementary -- in that one man's dirty trick is another's hint to get with the program. ~ Snake Eyes - --=====================_49657604==_.ALT-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 01:53:03 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Taiwan Revisited Not that I haven't enjoyed all the witty China banter here lately, but I found a decent evaluation of the prospects for an invasion over at Stratfor's Global Intelligence Update site: http://www.stratfor.com/asia/specialreports/special40.htm It touches on a lot of the same material that was covered here, plus a whole lot more on the importance of theatre satellite intel & both sides' ASAT capabilities. An interesting read for anyone who still cares about the topic. Their mailing list is a handy source of current geopolitical info, too. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 02:41:53 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Snake Eyes wrote: > I think I've argued my point regarding "PC discipline," but as always > I remain open to suggestion, comments & criticism. The original > thread was a request soliciting input for "Dirty Ref Tricks." I don't > remember exactly where we got off that, but the two topics are kind of > complementary -- in that one man's dirty trick is another's hint to > get with the program. > > ~ Snake Eyes HMmm more ref tricks.... well my favorite way to slow down the PCs if they are too mobile is give them orders to carry something around. Anything at all. In t2k this can mean the PCs pick up someone who needs to tag along to their destination, etc. In Paranoia this meant actually telling the PCs they needed to carry two crates of secret materials around with them on a mission (later they dropped one off a cliff and it turned out to be checkerboards). I've used other methods to work on those players who habitually take moves "back" or who are continually asking questions they wouldn't know answers too and spending way too long planning their actions. I had one player who would always take his actions back whenever something bad happened (yah I realize everyone does it a little occasionally :) ). I got him to stop by making his character act out his futile requests at pretending something didn't happen. In a Paranoia campaign he was trying to see a monitor hanging from the wall up above. He climbed onto another characters shoulders, but he couldn't see it yet. So he said he would hold on to the monitor and pull himself up. "You hear a crack as the monitor breaks free from the wall." "uh never mind i dont pull myself up i--" "you let go of the monitor hoping it will attach itself to wall again but instead you go tumbling down as the monitor crashes onto Citizen Anne-R-KEYs head." he was cited and executed for damaging computer property later :) For the indecisive player I just kept the pace going. Five second rounds are five seconds rounds in my book (if they don't decide in like 10 seconds too bad, although i give them time to elaborate their actions if necessary). One player went ahead to scout for the party. He came across a house. Several people were inside. There was some screaming and shouting and occasional gun fire. The player asked to walk around the house and try to figure out the house layout and requested if the action inside could slow down. As he continued waiting outside trying to figure out if there really was something bad going on the inhabitants were beaten and shot. The player was shocked. He hesitated further as the killers walked out. He shot one of them but the others got away. When the other PCs arrived he received a beating from the player who was playing the remorseful special forces officer character. The incident didn't fully stop the players habit but it did add to the character... if not in a good way. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 02:39:32 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Dirty Referee Tricks As long as we're on the topic of screwing with your PC's heads: I don't know how many of you follow the goings on over at the WebRPG board, but Frank Frey posted a particularly evil little gem of psychological warfare there a little while back. http://townhall.webrpg.com/index.phtml?nextid=171887 ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:26:07 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Frank Freys' Air Modules Hiya list, With the kind permission of Frank Frey, I have put up his 'Air Module' articles, which originally appeared in Challenge 26 & 28. Probably a few typos, and the articles are for 1st edition. Peter Grining http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/6480/T2K.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:59:27 +0100 From: "Mark Oliver" Subject: Re: Dirty Referee Tricks I'm kind of glad that the topics of conversation are shifting away from politics back to gaming. Anyhow here's my thoughts on the subject. I've been gaming for about twelve years now, I started around the time Games Workshop released Warhammer 40K for the first time (the one with the proper rule book). Anyhow since then I've seen a lot of different gaming styles, some worked, some haven't. My rule of thumb is to allow maximum freedom in a confined area. For example I also GM a Starwars campaign. It's easy to allow the players free run on a starship of definite scope. Materials can be mapped out, sequences of events planned and encounters plotted in advance. They can then run around to their hearts content doing what they want to do (like blowing an escape pod into their ship which was docked along side, sigh). T2K is very different. When I first attempted to run a campaign I sat down with the players and no pre-prepared material. I had the Escape from Kalisz scenario and the encounter lists, ah-ha I thought that'll do. Didn't work at all. The first encounter produced a T-90 rumbling over the hill in front of them. After loosing the truck they were in they dithered around and got not a lot done. I was unhappy and so were the players. I then passed the game onto somebody else, he made an abortive start on a campaign and then all was forgotten. A few months ago I got back into the saddle and claimed my game back. I prepared materials for several encounters around the Kalisz area. The first was a detailed beginning encounter which would take up the first session, the secondaries were thumb nails (little more than some ideas, a location and an opening situation). They choose a way to run from Kalisz and bumped into one of the thumbnail ideas. I then spent the time before the next session expanding upon that thumbnail with detailed encounters and plot lines. They come back the next week and followed the plot through. When doing so they had quite a bit of lateral movement possible and those other thumbnail ideas were ready in case they backed away from the current plot. When the plot ended I had them driving into the sunset (well almost) and I then made them talk about what their plans were. From that another set of thumbnails along a certain route were prepared (or updated from the unused ones) and the whole cycle begins again. I like my players to be able to do what ever they like, no matter how stupid it may appear. However after seeing totally free form games in action (not just by myself) I also appreciate that my group needs a focus or two. The Escape from Kalisz adventure is tricky because it is so open, in a way that' s a huge plus point but I find it needs to be managed. It's helpful that fuel is so limited, it cuts down on the possible areas for which encounters can take place and drives them to look for resources. I certainly don't want to 'rail-road' my players. If they want to abandon an adventure half way through then they can get back into the truck and head off elsewhere. If they want to turn an adventure where they're helping the villages into one where they turn marauder they can. However each adventure they enter into is plotted to a certain extent. I just can't have them being able to run absolutely anywhere and to deal with it on the fly. Anyway that's my thoughts on the matter. I'm still relatively new to handling T2K games (compared to my other systems) so I hope others will say how they are dealing with it. If ppl are interested in seeing some details of the first adventure that was expanded from a thumb nail then look at www.visitweb.com/twilight2000. Regards, Mark *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:25:30 -0400 From: Erik Yocum Subject: test, ignore *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #59 ************************************ To subscribe to Twilight2000-Digest, send the command: subscribe twilight2000-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com". 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