twilight2000-digest Saturday, July 31 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 058 The following topics are covered in this digest: WTF!!!! Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (was On subject) Re: America Bashing Re: ROTC Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) RE: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (was On subject) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:44:49 +1000 Re: China Anyone? [Longer] Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:46:48 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: WTF!!!! > >I don't know for sure, but I doubt very much that the women I know in the >armed forces would like being referred to as "boys" (or even "men," for >that >matter). :) > >T.P.M. > My GOD!! What the hell is this country coming to! Was that not "PC" enough for you to call them "boys" or "men." Should we go back and correct that mistake for you, cause after all this is the United States of the Offended! I know that this is off the subject and that what i am doing is just as bad but......... ASK ME IF I GIVE A SHIT WHAT THE "Other sexed members" OF THE "armed forces of america" WANT TO BE CALLED!! THEY ARE IN THE US ARMY SO WHY CAN'T YOU JUST LET US CALL THEM "boys" OR "men" OR "retarded bastards" I BET MOST OF THEM WOULD BE ****H O N E R E D**** TO BE A PART OF "our boys" OR "our men" OR EVEN "our retarded bastards" CAUSE THEY HAD TO WORK HARD TO BE A PART OF THAT after all this still is a free country......... right?????? sorry to you everyone that wants to talk about T2k but i just couldn't bring myself to ignore this retarded comment (which is what this is but at least i know it is!) C JONES sorry again o and i am not a sexist pig in case that comment is coming my way next _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:53:38 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (was On subject) > > From: Loonz > > Once I threw a rep yard out there to fix a couple of border line >vehicles > > in > > their group. They went nuts begging for this and whining about that. > > So... > > Days later after repairs they came to an impact crater and use the >gieger > > counter to check when they were clear. For some reason the counter > > wouldn't stop clicking even after I told them it wasn't broken and they > > fixed it anyways.:-) > > >Good one; I am stealing this one #8^) I want more! (I sound like my PCs;) > >Has the list ever had a Dirty Tricks for Refs thread? > >Here is one I have tried (but so has everyone else probably): On failed >task rolls I hand the PC a note that reads, "you see/find nothing (hand the >note back)"; When there is nothing to find I hand them the same note >regardless of the roll. I may only do it with one player; you know the >type >who steals a can of peaches and won't share his treasure with the rest of >the group. One thing i do is if they keep whining about how slow they are travelling then they might just come to a mine field which they might have to pass though that they might have to take time and clear a way though hehehehe ;) C JONES _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:31:37 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: America Bashing At 09:14 PM 7/30/99 +0000, Timothy Moerke wrote: >I don't know for sure, but I doubt very much that the women I know in the >armed forces would like being referred to as "boys" (or even "men," for that >matter). :) Yeah, you're probably right, but on the other hand I don't think the social engineers running our enlightened military are letting chicks storm the beaches quite yet. If I'm not mistaken (in real life) US servicewomen are still mostly limited to noncombat & support roles. I've got no idea regarding their eligibility for peacekeeper rotation. And I'm not going to touch that issue with a ten foot pole. No way in hell will I get sucked into debating that tar baby here. The rules clearly state that characters may be of either gender, and that is good enough for me. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:08:06 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: ROTC At 02:48 PM 7/30/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >anyone have comments on ROTC? heh they keep sending me mail about >college money, I just want to see what people besides their PR guys have >to say heh You could do a lot worse than an ROTC scholarship. Even if you don't get the full scholarship, you can still take the "military science" classes at most of the schools with ROTC corps. You'll learn plenty. If you do get offered a free ride, make sure you can hack the service commitment attached to it. It's generally a pretty good deal, considering what you get out of it. I knew a woman in college that went through a four year free ride courtesy of the Air Force, and the day after she graduated she got cut loose, no strings attached. USAF was doing a reduction in force and decided they had enough human resource management majors that year. Last I heard she's pulling down six figures. On the other end of the spectrum, I knew two guys in the reserves who were doing the USMC Platoon Leader's Course while in college & ended up getting activated for Desert Storm. Another two went Army ROTC at Georgetown; one got a 3.5 year scholarship and the other got his last two paid for. Both are tank commanders now, and can't wait for their terms of commitment to expire so they can get the hell out, go to business school and start making real money. All the services also have great programs to pay for law school & med school. You don't have to do a single push-up or even wear a uniform until graduation day, and then it's a direct commission into JAG or the Medical Corps as a Captain (O-3). ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:33:56 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS At 07:35 PM 7/30/99 -0500, Abel Garcia wrote: >Has the list ever had a Dirty Tricks for Refs thread? I don't know, but I'd love to throw out a few actual game-related ideas. My favorite Bastard Referee trick was in found in version 1. Whenever I thought the PC's had accumulated too much gear, I'd engineer an encounter that resulted in their vehicle's stores taking a hit. In version 1, you'd make a %ile roll against the remaining energy of the round, and any item that fails the roll is destroyed or damaged beyond any immediate use. With a couple well-placed fudges you can significantly lighten key portions of a party's load. Just be careful about cooking off ammo & high explosives. The mechanics of vehicular combat work differently in later versions, and I don't know if I ever came up with a similar solution. This same concept can also be used to disable their vehicle, leading to a lot of foot travel and whining. Generally, any way you can take away their toys without killing them is a neat trick in my book. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:58:49 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) "Garcia, Abel" wrote: > > ---------- > > From: ~ Snake Eyes > > Jim Lawrie wrote: > > > I've got this really cool can-opener recently, it grabs the can > > and cuts > > >the top of it rather than just gouging a groove in the top. > > > I'm sorry if this is not interesting but I find this relentless > > > > >just as boring. > > Yeah, I've got the Safety-Can AND the EuroSealer. I get far more use out > > of the former than the latter. I soon hope to acquire the little doodad > > that lets you carve up grapefruits. > > > Oh Jim, opening cans is not boring and *very* topical to T2K. We bought one > of those "can grabbers" for work, but it don't! #;^) As far as knives and > cans I use Cold Steel's BUSHMAN. Only TEN bucks for a great field knife! > > Abel Heh he is right have you ever tried opening canned food with WITHOUT a knife or something? One time I was out in the woods, a friend and I found a large can of peaches that was severely beat up. It hadn't been there a few hours ago so me and my friend figured it was probably ok to at least open it and maybe consider eating it :). We tried rocks, we threw it against trees, to no avail. Apparently the people who had dropped it had had the same problem, explaining why it looked like it had been run over by a tank. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:07:44 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: RE: Kitchen Tools (was: America Bashing) At 07:04 PM 7/30/99 -0500, Abel Garcia wrote: >Oh Jim, opening cans is not boring and *very* topical to T2K. We bought one >of those "can grabbers" for work, but it don't! #;^) As far as knives and >cans I use Cold Steel's BUSHMAN. Only TEN bucks for a great field knife! I'll second that first part -- I've got two different models of those damn jar-lid grabber/lever things, and they both positively SUCK ASS! I stand by my Safety Can, however. It's great for when you only want to eat, say, half a can of cold pork & beans and save the rest for later. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:14:40 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) "Garcia, Abel" wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Loonz > > Once I threw a rep yard out there to fix a couple of border line vehicles > > in > > their group. They went nuts begging for this and whining about that. > > So... > > Days later after repairs they came to an impact crater and use the gieger > > counter to check when they were clear. For some reason the counter > > wouldn't stop clicking even after I told them it wasn't broken and they > > fixed it anyways.:-) > > > Good one; I am stealing this one #8^) I want more! (I sound like my PCs;) > > Has the list ever had a Dirty Tricks for Refs thread? > > Here is one I have tried (but so has everyone else probably): On failed > task rolls I hand the PC a note that reads, "you see/find nothing (hand the > note back)"; When there is nothing to find I hand them the same note > regardless of the roll. I may only do it with one player; you know the type > who steals a can of peaches and won't share his treasure with the rest of > the group. Messing with the minds of the players is a science and an art at the same time :) The players think they are so clever. All the time GMs have to throw more and more complicated things at them. Remember all those traps books a few years ago? Yah well if you really want to screw the players up throw something obvious and easy at them. For example, the last time I GMed merc2k my players were in Pretoria trying to find records of an arms company. They believed one of the heads at the company payed for one of his rivals to be killed. The office of the company was on the top story. One wall of the first story was in a rundown alley and it was possible to climb into the janitors bathroom through a window then walk right up the stairs to the roof access (the office was locked big time). But no. The PCs spent LITERALLY two hours trying to befriend the janitor so they could get his keys and get in. Finally they spooked the janitor and ran in the alley and realized the window frame was rotted away. Next they got in and went to the lobby-- but theres a camera in lobby! So they spent 20 minutes devising ways to get past, like that onld mission impossible one where they put a photo up to the camera (except the camera was moving... DUH). I was laughing my ass of because the camera was a dummy, no one monitored the security cameras, they were just there to get tape if something happened the businesses had it recorded. Finally they had their sniper take it out using a gun with a supressor. Incidentally you can have lots of fun by saying something happens, which the PCs think will lead to something else. I said "the camera sparks ominously" after they shot it, they thought it might set the fire alarm off. Anyway they make it up onto the roof and the real fun begins. The next bit took 3 freakin hours. The argued and fought, occasionally wrestled and punched as each debated over the best way to get into the office. The answer was to take a small team member and have them climb in through the air conditioning duct. Then they can go and unlock a window and the rest of the team can just climb on in (provided they have a rope). But nooo. My personal favorite plan was to get a helicopter and land an ultralight on the roof or something (i prepared my description of the success off his plan in advance "Cal opens the throttle on the ultralight and it lurches forward, picking up speed as it crosses the roof. The little aircraft looks to be straining to get off into the air, craving flight. Just as the nose lifts off the ultralight slams into the raised ledge around the roof and does a somersault. There is time for Cal to scream before you hear a crash on the street and a honk from a bus. Here a character sheet and some dice why don't you go in the kitchen and make another character"). - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:33:47 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS Snake Eyes wrote: > At 07:35 PM 7/30/99 -0500, Abel Garcia wrote: > > >Has the list ever had a Dirty Tricks for Refs thread? > > I don't know, but I'd love to throw out a few actual game-related ideas. > > My favorite Bastard Referee trick was in found in version 1. Whenever I > thought the PC's had accumulated too much gear, I'd engineer an encounter > that resulted in their vehicle's stores taking a hit. In version 1, you'd > make a %ile roll against the remaining energy of the round, and any item > that fails the roll is destroyed or damaged beyond any immediate use. With > a couple well-placed fudges you can significantly lighten key portions of a > party's load. Just be careful about cooking off ammo & high > explosives. The mechanics of vehicular combat work differently in later > versions, and I don't know if I ever came up with a similar solution. This > same concept can also be used to disable their vehicle, leading to a lot of > foot travel and whining. > > Generally, any way you can take away their toys without killing them is a > neat trick in my book. > > ~ Snake Eyes I got rid of that convoy of vehicles I talked about in a earlier post by having the players party get in the middle of a siege. The characters knew the only way to survive was to hide and get the hell out of there, and gee it was hard to hide six two ton trucks, a jeep, a brdm, two t-55s, three still vehicles, and a t-90 (they tried burying the t-90). It didn't go over well with them and thats how my first campaign ended (there was some screaming and dice throwing that accompanied this pathetic end to a 1 1/2 year campaign). - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:54:07 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS At 12:33 AM 7/31/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >I got rid of that convoy of vehicles I talked about in a earlier post by >having the players party get in the middle of a siege. The characters knew >the only way to survive was to hide and get the hell out of there, and gee >it was hard to hide six two ton trucks, a jeep, a brdm, two t-55s, three >still vehicles, and a t-90 (they tried burying the t-90). It didn't go >over well with them and thats how my first campaign ended (there was some >screaming and dice throwing that accompanied this pathetic end to a 1 1/2 >year campaign). And once the PC's are on foot, never underestimate the ferocious efficiency with which a pack of wild, rabid dogs will thin the herd. And don't forget that one well-concealed hick with a scoped deer rifle can rain hell on the entire party for days. Ever see the movie "Southern Comfort" with Powers Boothe & Keith Carradine? It's about a bunch of Louisiana Guardsmen that piss off the locals on a training exercise and have to fight their way out of the bayou. That movie (along with the relentlessly cheesy "Red Dawn") is probably the best source of ideas with which to harass PC's I've ever seen. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:05:01 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (was On subject) >One thing i do is if they keep whining about how slow they are travelling >then they might just come to a mine field which they might have to pass >though that they might have to take time and clear a way though > >hehehehe ;) > >C JONES > For an excellent handling of mine warfare in T2K see Challenge magazine #66, "Achtung! Minen!" by Mike Sweeny. Jim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:27:16 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS >> Generally, any way you can take away their toys without killing them is a >> neat trick in my book. >> >> ~ Snake Eyes > >I got rid of that convoy of vehicles I talked about in a earlier post by having >the players party get in the middle of a siege. The characters knew the only >way to survive was to hide and get the hell out of there, and gee it was hard >to hide six two ton trucks, a jeep, a brdm, two t-55s, three still vehicles, >and a t-90 (they tried burying the t-90). It didn't go over well with them and >thats how my first campaign ended (there was some screaming and dice throwing >that accompanied this pathetic end to a 1 1/2 year campaign). > Our player's are in Karlobrzeg, whenever they've accumulated too much err ... stuff, I simply have a Major turn up and requisition the more objectionable items. Whenever they need heavy firepower or Armour I let them have it back on loan. This is great if your PC's have stocked up ten years food etc. You can keep the "Hungry Edge" by absorbing things into the parent unit and you have a ready made patron for mission's. You have to be careful to let the party get something back such as the odd mortar mission if they're close enough or they feel that it's more logical to go AWOL. Secondly, I think they've worked out that the larger their party in vehicles and stuff, the more likely the Polish and Sov internal security forces. "Alexi, it seems a patrol has found ewidence of a unit of armoured wehicles on the Sandomierz road!" "Thank you tovaritchs Kommisar, signalman! Inform Third Shock Tank Army HQ immediately!" Jim. : ) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:44:49 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:44:49 +1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BEDB84.C4A3FCC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I posted this on the onelist forum but I did'nt get a bite, so I'll = try here but I must admit I'm a bit apprehensive it'll start another = Rant-War. So please guys, remember this is a game list and other people = are allowed to have opposite views. =20 =20 One of the problems a GM has with the t2k campaign world is not knowing = what was the general level of engagement between the major combatants. I = know they nuked the hell out of everything so they were'nt kidding = around, but I wonder what actual percentage of the survivng population = is enlisted in the armed forcess of each nation? If every able bodied = man and woman is in the service the army lists are too small even = allowing for nukes and a meatgrinder war. What thought's does everyone have on enlistment and the draft in = t2k? It's only been used once to my knowledge in Australia and that was = during our involvement in Vietnam, every other time the draft has been = successfully resisted by a Referendum. In what countries does any one = think it may be introduced? A general draft would have far ranging = concequences in the USA as high proportion of people who would only = otherwise enlist if thier borders were threatened would already have = been called up and sent to Europe. In "Escape from Kalisz" the 5th inf. mech. is noted as being late = for it's jump off into the ill fated spring offensive because "late = rains delayed the soldiers getting thier crops in." This would seem to = indicate that in most cantons the troops themselves are responsible for = thier upkeep and that the civilian population has little input in a = military canton. (a bit iffy to make a sweeping=20 statement like that based on nine words in an intro!) Has anyone = detailed a cantonment? If so, how many civilians do you have in the = area? Are they integrated into the cantonment? Finally, does anyone think t2k Europe is a bit soft? I'd have = thought the effect of all those nukes, biowar agents, gasses and = diseases would have had a greater effect on the ecology, the ground = water at the very least. Cheers, Jim. (Don't forget, let's keep it civil.) - ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BEDB84.C4A3FCC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I posted=20 this on the onelist forum but I did'nt get a bite, so I'll try here but = I must=20 admit I'm a bit apprehensive it'll start another Rant-War. So please = guys,=20 remember this is a game list and other people are allowed to have = opposite=20 views. =20 One=20 of the problems a GM has with the t2k campaign world is not knowing what = was the=20 general level of engagement between the major combatants. I know they = nuked the=20 hell out of everything so they were'nt kidding around, but I wonder what = actual=20 percentage of the survivng population is enlisted in the armed forcess = of each=20 nation? If every able bodied man and woman is in the service the army = lists are=20 too small even allowing for nukes and a meatgrinder = war. What=20 thought's does everyone have on enlistment and the draft in t2k? It's = only been=20 used once to my knowledge in Australia and that was during our = involvement in=20 Vietnam, every other time the draft has been successfully resisted by a=20 Referendum. In what countries does any one think it may be introduced? A = general=20 draft would have far ranging concequences in the USA as high proportion = of=20 people who would only otherwise enlist if thier borders were threatened = would=20 already have been called up and sent to Europe. In=20 "Escape from Kalisz" the 5th inf. mech. is noted as being late = for=20 it's jump off into the ill fated spring offensive because "late = rains=20 delayed the soldiers getting thier crops in." This would seem to = indicate=20 that in most cantons the troops themselves are responsible for thier = upkeep and=20 that the civilian population has little input in a military canton. (a = bit iffy=20 to make a sweeping statement like that based on nine words in an = intro!) Has=20 anyone detailed a cantonment? If so, how many civilians do you have in = the area?=20 Are they integrated into the cantonment? Finally,=20 does anyone think t2k Europe is a bit soft? I'd have thought the effect = of all=20 those nukes, biowar agents, gasses and diseases would have had a greater = effect=20 on the ecology, the ground water at the very least. =20 Cheers, =20 Jim. (Don't=20 forget, let's keep it civil.) - ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01BEDB84.C4A3FCC0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 13:55:26 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: China Anyone? [Longer] Subject: RE: China Anyone? [Longer] > > ---------- > > From: Loonz > > CNN doesn't report how many times these guys came out to meet us screaming > > and threatening to engage. Then when told politely to stand down they left > > and went home. A game I can tell ya the Brits and the French are very > > good at playing, we aren't as good as them but we have done it also with > > success. I'm not belittling the Chinese or any of those screamers either > > but facts is facts. > The PRC "navy" does this to measure our response. They feint to see how we > are trained to respond. Like in any fight: you feint; note your opponents > response; feint again while attacking the hole in his defense. They also > are training their swabs while they gather intel. > That might sound good in a fictional story but that was IMO rarely the case. Some people or nations just hate America and allot of times that drives the situation. How many people ever heard of Cubans strafing near US warships, or bumper tag other than the Black Sea incident, or US helo pilots in the Gulf and Lebanon getting over flown by Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian etc Jets so that they drop like a rock. The stuff was just all to common and I doubt it was to gauge the manuvers of a RADAR contact. Which is what it would have amounted too. > > --------- > >Dwight Looney wrote: > The geography is perfect to keep a CVBG at bay, or even two. > Considering they would be within strike range of the Chinese ,mainland. But > the Chinese would lose tons of hard to replace hardware. That kind of > operation goes against there basic strategic principles, they can't > overwhelm the target do to lack of mission specific craft. Plus why tangle > with a cat and mouse operation against the US Navy unless they KNEW we would > be slow to respond. > I agree Loonz, but they would do it if they felt threatened enough to think > Taiwan was in danger of becoming a forward American base -like for example > if Taiwan declared independence. Not for economic reasons, but for security > reasons. I don't think China fully trusts the CIS or the well armed Indians either and to bludgeon it's self against the Island and 2 CVBG's or throw troops into N. Korea IMO would weaken that facet of their defense. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 16:53:19 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) At 12:14 AM 7/31/99 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >The next bit took 3 freakin hours. The >argued and fought, occasionally wrestled and punched as each debated over the >best way to get into the office. The answer was to take a small team member and >have them climb in through the air conditioning duct. Then they can go and >unlock a window and the rest of the team can just climb on in (provided they >have a rope). But nooo. My personal favorite plan was to get a helicopter and >land an ultralight on the roof or something (i prepared my description of the >success off his plan in advance "Cal opens the throttle on the ultralight and it >lurches forward, picking up speed as it crosses the roof. The little aircraft >looks to be straining to get off into the air, craving flight. Just as the nose >lifts off the ultralight slams into the raised ledge around the roof and does a >somersault. There is time for Cal to scream before you hear a crash on the >street and a honk from a bus. Here a character sheet and some dice why don't you >go in the kitchen and make another character"). > Hmmm...really, in a good RPG, you shouldn't be able to say "[t]he answer was...." Yes, it's fine to leave an opening for the players in case they get stuck, but the fun of role-playing is solving your own problems, not trying to crack the GM's puzzle--the former is creative, and demands something from the players, while the latter is both boring and frustrating. And most importantly of all, you shouldn't penalize players for doing it a way other than the way you planned for them to do it.... Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:25:44 -0700 From: Snake Eyes Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) At 04:53 PM 7/31/99 -0400, Scott Orr wrote: >And most importantly of all, you shouldn't penalize players for doing it a >way other than the way you planned for them to do it.... Au contraire, Mr. Orr. You should *absolutely* punish the players for messing up your well-crafted scenarios and otherwise wandering off your storyline. Otherwise your campaign will become a rambling Faulkner novel that will never go anywhere. An example: I was running a Vietnam-era game set in the Mekong Delta that was going along very nicely when my dumb ass PC's got the wise idea to go AWOL & try to make a break for Thailand in their freshly stolen PBR. Oddly enough, I got a lot of confusion, grief and other bellyaching when I had them blown out of the water with a Cobra gunship. A good Ref needs to be tough, but fair and consistent. Keeping your PC's in line is much like training a dog. In order for the Ref to garner the respect of the PC's, there must always be a low-level element of fear involved. To keep the PC's in line, they must know that punishment will be swift, yet appropriate. If you don't smack them down on a regular basis, they'll walk all over you, and (more importantly) they'll never learn survival instinct. PC discipline is often controversial, yet is always necessary -- it's the only way they'll ever discover their boundaries. ~ Snake Eyes *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:56:01 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) At 02:25 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Snake Eyes wrote: >At 04:53 PM 7/31/99 -0400, Scott Orr wrote: > >>And most importantly of all, you shouldn't penalize players for doing it a >>way other than the way you planned for them to do it.... > >Au contraire, Mr. Orr. You should *absolutely* punish the players for >messing up your well-crafted scenarios and otherwise wandering off your >storyline. Otherwise your campaign will become a rambling Faulkner novel >that will never go anywhere. > I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about role-playing games; evidently you tell stories and invite the players to attend in order to admire your technique (sort of like the way people go to baseball games to watch the umpires). If they like that, fine.... Scott *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:13:20 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Scott David Orr wrote: > Hmmm...really, in a good RPG, you shouldn't be able to say "[t]he answer > was...." Yes, it's fine to leave an opening for the players in case they > get stuck, but the fun of role-playing is solving your own problems, not > trying to crack the GM's puzzle--the former is creative, and demands > something from the players, while the latter is both boring and frustrating. > > And most importantly of all, you shouldn't penalize players for doing it a > way other than the way you planned for them to do it.... > > Scott Orr Heh their ideas were a bit over the top. I thought this section might take five minutes... But they had ideas like, lets rent a helicopter, fly it next to the building, have someone hang from a rope and use a glass cutter to cut open a hole in the window. Then we can ferry people in the ultralight into the window from the roof. Then someone would say thats a really stupid idea and they'd argue. Heh and it was really stupid... I can't let them succeed just cuz they thought of the most farfetched plan ever... (thats saved for Feng Shui) otherwise it just gets progressively more silly. Sure if its a strange idea but its good i'll let it work. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 15:20:43 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: DIRTY TRICKS FOR TRICKY REFS (LONG!!!) Scott David Orr wrote: > At 02:25 PM 7/31/99 -0700, Snake Eyes wrote: > >At 04:53 PM 7/31/99 -0400, Scott Orr wrote: > > > >>And most importantly of all, you shouldn't penalize players for doing it a > >>way other than the way you planned for them to do it.... > > > >Au contraire, Mr. Orr. You should *absolutely* punish the players for > >messing up your well-crafted scenarios and otherwise wandering off your > >storyline. Otherwise your campaign will become a rambling Faulkner novel > >that will never go anywhere. > > > I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about role-playing games; evidently > you tell stories and invite the players to attend in order to admire your > technique (sort of like the way people go to baseball games to watch the > umpires). If they like that, fine.... > > Scott No snake eyes is right. If you don't have a story and have a reason for the players to go along with the adventure they might as well just go AWOL. Then the game degenerates into normal life (i've seen it happen before, the players decided they didn't want to die and didn't know what else to do so they set up a farm, etc [heh the farm was my idea it didn't make the GM too happy :)]). And you can't just let the players succeed because their plan is creative. GM: "Theres a ravine and evidence that there used to be a bridge here." Player: "I'm going to call on my knowledge of circus acts to do a somersault, throw a knife with a rope attached to the other side, climb up onto it, and do a tight rope walk to the other side." Creative, but NO. And even if the plan is a very good one things sometimes go wrong. The players have to live with that. Otherwise you get the feeling you're immortal and nothing is difficult anymore, so whats the point of doing anything. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #58 ************************************ To subscribe to Twilight2000-Digest, send the command: subscribe twilight2000-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com". 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