twilight2000-digest Friday, July 23 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 052 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts (last one) Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 Re: New America Re: Thoughts Re: New America Thoughts More Thoughts Re: New America Re: New America Re: Turret movement Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts No more thoughts, back to TW2k 'Thoughts' for T2K RE: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Sundry Radio thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:13:50 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: Thoughts >Perhaps you don't like "liberals", not because they "sit on their ass", but >because they work very hard to do things you don't personally agree with? >Can't you disagree with people without calling them names or suggesting >they're evil? > I don't like liberals because they always pick a scapegoat rather than address the actual problem What a liberal says "Of course it was the computer games (like Doom), and GUNS that caused the Littleton accident, oh I almost forgot the Internet is the problem too!! Who cares if the parents didn't care what there kids were doing! Who cares that they had guns all over the house that the parents didn't care about! How cares that they were made fun-of EVERY SINGLE DAY! We need more laws, more restictions on our rights! Besides it is good PR for us! I mean who cares if they broke many many many laws to comit this crime! lets give'um more to break, more that only LAW ABIDING CITZEN MOST FOLLOW, let them give up rights so that the crimals may commit crimes without the fear of an armed house-owner!" does that sound rediculous to you...... i hope so GUNS don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people! Bottom line..... You make take my gun when you pry it loose from my cold, dead, fingers!! C JONES NRA Life Member (and Proud of it!) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:17:01 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: Thoughts >I believe most people are looking out for the interests of the >Republic.. >as >misguided as it may seem to me. Don't you tink a misguided attempt to help only worseness the problem! C JONES _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 11:31:34 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: Thoughts (last one) http://nraila.org/research/Fables.html I rest my case................. C JONES _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:24:11 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Thoughts Stephen Dragoo wrote: > As for liberals and their views, I do not advocate shooting them. Aside > from the fact that murder is morally, ethically, and legally wrong, it'd be > a waste of a good bullet . If anything, I only take a dislike to the > ultra-liberal point of view, and the effects it has had on us. After all, > without them we wouldn't have frivolous lawsuits filed by criminals who were > injured by the very private citizens they tried to assault or steal from... Yes my favorite is the mugger who was mugging an old lady, was shot in the back by a security guard, lost the use of his legs, and won $4million in a suit against the guard. And justice for all. - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://www.netcom.com/~fitek]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 13:30:17 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Thoughts Peter Vieth wrote: I believe most people are looking out for the interests of the Republic.. as misguided as it may seem to me. I hope this is the case. Because this means that they still have time to see the truth. And really I can't have a clear conscience if I know that lots of people are dying just because I would like to go hunting or something. Your conscience should be clear, because you aren't the one pulling the trigger. I just had my annual refresher course for my Concealed Weapons Permit renewal, and the instructor pointed out some statistics. Unfortunately I don't remember the exact numbers/percents, but basically it was most crimes involving firearms are criminal vs criminal. Cases in which neither party can legally own/posses a firearms. The next was criminal vs citizen, cases in which the party who can't legally own/posses a firearm does. Lastly, citizen vs criminal, cases where one party can legally own/posses a firearm using it to defend against someone who can't. By the way this last one is on the rise. (A glimmer of hope). Also, only something like one half of one percent of accidental deaths in the US are involve firearms, and all can be traced back to negligence(spl), carelessness, or alcohol. The idea that citizens with their rifles or pistols could fight off an invasion is even more silly, a pipe dream that I don't think a single life is worth wasting for. Well, we've already done it twice. Once in 1776, and again in 1812. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:45:48 EDT From: Zek101@aol.com Subject: Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 YOUR FORGETING AMERICAN SURVIVALISTS AND MILLITIAS WHO HAVE BEEN PREPARING FOR DECADES TO LIVE IN JUST SUCH AWAY. ALSO NEW AMERICA IN THE GAME SETTING HAS HAD MASSIVE PREPARATIONS *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:51:09 EDT From: Zek101@aol.com Subject: Re: New America DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY BACK ISSUE OF MODUELS? I NEED ARMIES OF THE NIGHT BLACK MADONNA CITY OF ANGLES WHITE EAGLE *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:54:05 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: Thoughts Subject: Re: Thoughts > > Bottom line..... > You make take my gun when you pry it loose from my cold, dead, fingers!! Now I guess/hope non-Americans can appreciate the constitutional battle. Loonz *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:58:47 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: New America Subject: Re: New America > DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY BACK ISSUE OF MODUELS? > I NEED > ARMIES OF THE NIGHT > BLACK MADONNA > CITY OF ANGLES > WHITE EAGLE At my site http://t2k.findher.com on the resellers page is a list of sources. Your lacking 4 of the rarest, White Eagle would probably be the easiest. Loonz *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:09:02 -0000 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mathias_K=F6ppen?=" Subject: Thoughts End of discussion please, boys and girls. Let's face it. We all have different opinions. Some like guns, some don't. Some like liberals, some don't. And so on. Could we please get back to what this list is really about... Some of us has to pay to get these messages. Regards, Mathias Köppen *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 18:23:47 From: "Timothy Moerke" Subject: More Thoughts Someone a while back said something to the effect of liberals ruining the United States of America. Hey, don't give them all the credit. Conservatives have done their share of running the nation into the ground as well... T.P.M. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:21:01 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: New America Dwight Looney wrote: > Subject: Re: New America > > > DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY BACK ISSUE OF MODUELS? > > I NEED > > ARMIES OF THE NIGHT > > BLACK MADONNA > > CITY OF ANGLES > > WHITE EAGLE > > At my site http://t2k.findher.com on the resellers page is a list of > sources. Your lacking 4 of the rarest, White Eagle would probably be the > easiest. > > Loonz Oh great news I saw black madonna but passed it up for white eagle, cuz i didn't have enough money with me :) - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://sanitarium.computers-radio.com]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 19:30:37 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: New America Subject: Re: New America > > > DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN BUY BACK ISSUE OF MODUELS? > > > I NEED > > > ARMIES OF THE NIGHT > > > BLACK MADONNA > > > CITY OF ANGLES > > > WHITE EAGLE > > > > At my site http://t2k.findher.com on the resellers page is a list of > > sources. Your lacking 4 of the rarest, White Eagle would probably be the > > easiest. > > > > Loonz Sorry the correct URL is http://t2k.findhere.com I dropped the e, oops! :-( *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:21:03 +1000 From: "Peter" Subject: Re: Turret movement - -----Original Message----- From: Puolakka Petri To: 'twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com' Date: Monday, 19 July 1999 22:06 Subject: Turret movement > >How many degrees per second a tank turret turns? M1A1? >*************************************************************************** M-1 Abrams 210 degrees in 5 seconds T-55 75 degrees in 5 secs T-72 100 degrees in 5 secs T-80 120 degrees in 5 secs Leopard 2 200 degrees in 5 secs Gepard 360 degrees in 5 secs That all the turret turn rates I have. Apparently (i haven't done the math) Russian tanks can not keep up with a close moving target close in! Peter Grining *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 20:08:48 -0400 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Thoughts > One blaring example of why the Constitution probably never mentioned > education. The next time your kids do their elementary school projects on > civil rights see how many abolitionists are on the list of hero's to > research. It's as though the battle for equality was won solely by the > victims, with no help from whites or Europeans that found the practice > reprehensible. Your child's social studies book may have your practiced > faith (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist) indexed with Greek Mythos and > Aztec rituals. I have to disagree a little bit here, Loonz. I know that there were many White people who helped slaves escape up north into Canada along with starting a political party with a single issue of abolishing slavery. I know here in the Western Pennsylvania area, there were numerous stops on the Underground Railroad, notably in (Little) Washington, PA, here in Pittsburgh, and even in Jamestown, PA up north at the southern tip of the Pymatuning Lake. In Jamestown, there is a noted house called "The Gibson House" which is a small mansion on a corner lot in the main part of town. Very interesting house, repuded to be haunted. A lot of these Underground Railroad houses have hiding places for slaves travelling and would be nice to use to hide people, supplies, firearms, etc. in a Twilight: 2000 situation (gotta keep the subject in the TW2K arena) B-) Of course, most of the Whites who helped may not have had a lot of power to influence things politically, but just wanted to say the slaves did have some help. > Everything from the illicit affairs of our founding fathers to declassified > war records and their relation to area 51, historical evidence has forever > been tainted. > So some have become to believe what they can touch or have experienced. I think you struck a good point there, I think a lot of people have gotten cynical to the point where some (many?) do not see the current government as legitimate or at best, certain elements therof. When and where did it really start? Some say, from the North winning the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression, depending on your viewpoint). Many saw Lincoln and his actions suspending many personal liberties as the beginning. Others see it as the creation of the Federal Reserve and the permanent income tax in 1913. Moving up, some see FDR as a starting point by taking the gold out of private hands and beefing up the Welfare State. Roswell in 1947 with the two possible crash sites of flying saucers was another starting point to some. I think in most people's eyes, the assassination of JFK was the first crack in the foundation, then Vietnam, then Watergate, Carter's sluggish economy and Iran, a brief respite in the 1980s for some, and then the current Clinton mess we have now. Getting back to Twilight: 2000, I think many areas that have become independent or insular may not welcome the return of the U.S. Government in the current form or CivGov, especially if it means taxes, the draft, lots of regulations, and so on. To most, I think they would probably be more apt to go with MilGov or stay on their own if they can. You have some pockets of New America (yuck) to deal with, maybe Utah would want to remain independent so they could become Deseret (to the dreams of some Mormons), perhaps The Mob might have some urban areas that are not nuked, and so on. Would America get back together? I don't know, only time will tell. > > With this said in relation to T2K. Just because a history book says x did > y. Feel free to twist it to fit your plot line. Just don't start to > believing it, (as some liberals want you to). :-) I think the history revisionists have also contributed to a lot of cynicism too such as always bringing up the point that the Founding Fathers had illicit affairs (as you mentioned above) and other things. I see them as very smart men, ahead of their time but like the rest of us, they had their faults too in their personal lives. Chuck DE KA3WRW - --- "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:14:06 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Thoughts At 02:20 AM 7/22/99 -0700, Vanquer wrote: > Another quick thought here too- While we keep hearing about deaths and >crime being sooo high compared to "x" European nation, has anyone considered >the fact that the US is larger than most European countries? Not a liittle >larger, but significantly larger. Yes, all such statistics take that into account--that's why they refer to a "murder rate" (murders per 100,000 people, usually) rather than to absolute number of murders. >Or the fact that many areas of the US have >larger, denser, population centers than European cities? Wouldn't it stand >to reason that crime and killings would be higher? > Actually, this isn't true. Europe is much, MUCH more densely populated than the U.S. > > Okay, off the guns issue. Scott D. Orr wrote... > >"The country is a lot more democratic- and politics are a lot more honest- >then it was in 1800 (and yes, if you really, really want, I can provide the >empirical proof for that)" > > I'm not arguing your points Scott, but I am curious as to what >"evidence" you're talking about. I would like to see it- even via private >mail if others on the list aren't interested. I would really appreciate it. > Without going to the library it's hard to cite chapter and verse, but if you looked at politics back then, you'd find that, first of all, a lot of people couldn't vote (women, slaves, people without a certain property qualification in many states). But even among people who could vote, voting tended to be controlled in many areas by local elites ("strongmen" if you will), and was much more determined by ethnicity and religion than it is now (that is, voting wasn't as much as individual choice in many cases as an expression of community values)--which meant that competitive elections, in which people were willing to listen to both candidates and then make up their minds, didn't happen in a lot of cases. Indeed, you could still see this in the "Solid South" especially, right up to the 1970's. When politics are not competitive, there's no real incentive for politicians to be honest--after all, as long as they bring back the goods for their own supporters, they don't have to please the rest of the population, since there's no chance of winning the rest of the population over anyway. A good example of this is the "spoils system" that Andrew Jackson was so notorious for instituting. But while Jackson was notorious for this (in part because he extend the spoils to common people, rather than keeping it among the rich and powerful like his predecessors), you can see similar things earlier. For example, many of the early Supreme Court decisions--those that set the precendents for U.S. Constitutional law--were determined more by political maneuverings (especially under the first Court, which, while having Federalist leanings, found itself in a Democratic-controlled country) than by an honest and objective interpretation of the Constitution. Examples of special interests gaining benefits can be seen in the formation of the national bank, and then later in the allocation of rights to build canals and railroads. But as I mentioned before, you can see the rights of special interests (such as landowners--especially if you include the provisions in the Bill of Rights--and slave owners) reflected even in the Constitution itself. As another example, the Constitution did carefully consider the status of slaves, in two places directly and in a third indirectly. First, slaves were counted as population for purposes of allocating seats in the House of Representative--but only as 3/5 of a person each. Even counting them as 3/5 of a person each gave each Southern voter more power than each Northern voter (since the Southern voters got to choose the representatives that "represented" the slaves). Slavery was thus both codified and favored in the elective process. Second, the Constitution stated that the slave trade could not be banned before a certain date (1806 or 1807, I think), which, while it limited the future rights of Southern farmers, also codified the existence of slavery; as an aside, banning the slave trade also increased the value of the slaves already in the country, which of course favored the Southern upper classes, who already owned slaves--the people most hurt would have been "entrepreneurs" seeking to create new plantations or expand old ones. Third, the Constitution gave two votes each in the Senate to the relatively sparsely populated Southern states, again making each Southern voter much more powerful than his Northern counterpart (of course, some of the smaller Northern states also favored this provision). This ensured (until the 1850's, anyway), that any move against slavery in Congress could be stalemated. > Here, I don't want to sound prejudicial (and I usually get accused of it >before being allowed to finish my statements), but I really have to question >whether the constitution was really "fixed" on the part of Negro slaves and >on women. Let me explain that radical changes were fully necessary and that >equality were very necessary. I definitely see those points and agree with >them. The "fixes" in the Constitution don't actually in themselves literally specify the things you object to--those have been created by legislation and Constitutional interpretation. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:35:05 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Thoughts At 11:13 AM 7/22/99 PDT, C Jones wrote: >>Perhaps you don't like "liberals", not because they "sit on their ass", but >>because they work very hard to do things you don't personally agree with? >>Can't you disagree with people without calling them names or suggesting >>they're evil? >> >I don't like liberals because they always pick a scapegoat rather than >address the actual problem > Which is, I think, precisely what you're doing by blaming everything on liberals. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:41:42 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: No more thoughts, back to TW2k geez guys, why is it every summer we go through some debate like this. I had the unpleasant opportunity to take a Constitutional Law class this past year, but this by no means qualifies me as an expert and I do not want to re-live the horror of studying this complex document. I have one thing to say about the American Constitution. It is a living document. By this, I mean that it is constantly going to be changed. Our founding fathers did not and could not forsee the changes that society and technology would bring. As my Con Law professor would say " Did our founding fathers forsee computers? Why do we have an airforce? There is no constitutional provision for an airforce." Therefore it will constantly be amended and interpreted by our courts and legislature. It is by no means perfect. I swear I don't know what is worse, that monkey boy guy that was here awhile ago or some political debate that isn't even relevant to the topic of Twilight 2000. Take it off the list please. Anyways to keep this relevant to the list, to the guys who were wondering where to pick up some out of print TW2k stuff, try this url: http://members.aol.com/SFRPG/T01.html I have reason to believe it is Marc Miller's webpage. He created the sci fi game Traveller and ran or owned GDW until it closed. Practically the whole catalog is there. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 23:55:46 EDT From: Calibur1@aol.com Subject: 'Thoughts' for T2K Getting back to the topic that started this debate... Considering the situation in the United States, as detailed in 'Howling Wilderness' and other US scenarios', the war abroad would become extremely unpopular and difficult to maintain. Regardless, I don't think the US would pull out unless it was totally confident that it's NATO allies could at least 'contain' the Warsaw Pact. Even then, it would probably leave a contingency force just in case. As for..."Would a military presence be welcomed back in the States?" I'm pretty sure. Besides famine and disease, there are many enemies roaming within our borders. A benevolent military presence represents a sense of order and security. When people feel safe they prosper. A small military encampment would attract nomadic merchants, hunters, trappers, prostitutes, and tiny 'victory gardens' would begin to dot the perimeter. The encampment would then become a fort. Civilian workers (carpenters, masons, etc.) would be needed. Land for collective farms would be tilled. Family businesses, like blacksmith, inn, trading post, would begin to spring up. The first 'house of worship' might even be built. The fort would grow into a base. Light industry (sawmill, cannery, etc.) would appear. As the civilian population grew responsibility for civil order might be shifted into the peoples' hands. A mayor would be elected. Police, judges, civil servants, and yes, even 'LAWYERS' would be appointed. Well, you see where this is going. Before you know it, a new city has emerged from the ashes. Sure, there would be a few separatists communities opposed to the army, but I don't think they would have as much success. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 06:40:18 +0200 From: Antti Henttu Subject: RE: Thoughts Well, I have followed this discousion about the constitution/liberals/guncontrol/etc I find it very interesting for being a European, the thing is it gives more "flesh on the bones" regarding those settings in USA that are found in different books. Well, what have I to add to the discoussion, well I found this URL that might be interrseting in (what might US-citisen would call twisted) setting... http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/misc/balkanus.htm I hope I'm not flamed now ;) Antenna *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 16:25:30 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: Thoughts - -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Looney To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Date: Friday, 23 July 1999 6:58 Subject: Re: Thoughts >Subject: Re: Thoughts > > > >> >> Bottom line..... >> You make take my gun when you pry it loose from my cold, dead, fingers!! > >Now I guess/hope non-Americans can appreciate the constitutional battle. > >Loonz > Wasn't this kind of discussion why this alternate list got started ? Try and talk about the Role Playing Game guys! Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 00:29:22 -0700 From: "Ben Brooks" Subject: Re: Thoughts This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BED4A2.6954ACE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well for U.S. soldiers leaving the war early and going home, I've = always told my players, and justified it myself in this way. Both sides = knocked themselves senseless and went into a serious stalemate. The = only way to victory now wasn't by annihilating the enemy, it was = impossible, but by rebuilding the fastest. With America in a civil war = every resource was needed to end it. Now this was leaving Europe to = fend for itself, but as famous general once said "I shall return." =20 Now for your second question as we see from the current responses = from the list, yes it's very probable that America would be split into = two fractions. It's even more probable that America would split up into = a much larger number than that. Much like it was in its founding. = Remember America was created through compromises and shift towards the = center, and for it to be rebuilt in Twilight 2000 era the same thing = would have to happen. All in all the rebuilding of America would be one = great Twilight 2000 campaign. - ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BED4A2.6954ACE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well for U.S. = soldiers leaving=20 the war early and going home, I've always told my players, and = justified it=20 myself in this way. Both sides knocked themselves senseless = and went=20 into a serious stalemate. The only way to victory now wasn't = by annihilating the enemy, it was impossible, but by = rebuilding=20 the fastest. With America in a civil war every resource was = needed to=20 end it. Now this was leaving Europe to fend for itself, but as = famous=20 general once said "I shall return." Now for your second = question as=20 we see from the current responses from the list, yes it's very = probable that=20 America would be split into two fractions. It's even more = probable=20 that America would split up into a much larger number than that. = Much like=20 it was in its founding. Remember America was created through=20 compromises and shift towards the center, and for it to be rebuilt = in=20 Twilight 2000 era the same thing would have to happen. All in = all the=20 rebuilding of America would be one great Twilight 2000=20 campaign. - ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BED4A2.6954ACE0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 12:23:23 -0400 From: "Dwight Looney" Subject: Re: Thoughts > >Subject: Re: Thoughts > >> Bottom line..... > >> You make take my gun when you pry it loose from my cold, dead, fingers!! > > > >Now I guess/hope non-Americans can appreciate the constitutional battle. > > > >Loonz > > > Wasn't this kind of discussion why this alternate list got started ? Try > and talk about the Role Playing Game guys! > Jim. No Jim I made the other list because of the flaming that was going on a few months back. And to a lesser degree the loooooooooooong and abusive off subject thread previous to that. Besides this thread started with (or was quickly turned to) an inaccurate assessment of US Constitutional law and US Government mechanics or something to that affect. Viable considering Civ/Mil Gov. and NA was the partial source of discussion. As to the alternate list, I'll gladly hand over moderator of it to one of the regulars on this list. It's real easy to operate. Everyone should have choices. Loonz *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:27:22 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Thoughts At 04:25 PM 7/23/99 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: > > Wasn't this kind of discussion why this alternate list got started ? Try >and talk about the Role Playing Game guys! No, this list got started because when the new publisher bought the game, they ignored the previous lists and started their own. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:36:30 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Thoughts At 05:27 PM 7/23/99 -0400, Scott David Orr wrote: >At 04:25 PM 7/23/99 +1000, Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: >> >> Wasn't this kind of discussion why this alternate list got started ? Try >>and talk about the Role Playing Game guys! > >No, this list got started because when the new publisher bought the game, >they ignored the previous lists and started their own. > Oops, I guess this _is_ a new new list--and I didn't even notice the change.... Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 18:13:18 -0400 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Sundry Radio thoughts > Great point ! What is the state of communications in t2k ? Does anyone > have a list of the types of radio ? What the hell is sideband anyway ?! Can > someone knowledgable come up with a list and the ranges, suceptability to > jamming etc. Is there any effect on radio due to the tons of crap thrown > into the troposphere by all these nukes ? I think the biggest grey area is > that player's aren't sure if they can get into contact with higher command, > get orders and make a difference rather than just E & E'ing back to where > ever. > Jim. Jim, Well, you would have a lot of ham operators around with varying degrees of shortwave, VHF, and UHF radios ranging from old military models to newer ones. The question is so broad, I can get real verbose here. Basically, HF radios (shortwave) cover from 1600 kc (above the AM dial) to 30,000 kc and would open up possible worldwide and long distance communications. The lower freqs, you get less range, but you can cover a great deal of territory at night. In the middle of that range, you get pretty reliable worldwide communications for the most part. Higher up, it is sporadic from time to time due to sunspots and other conditions but when it kicks in, you get great range. I once talked to California from here in Pittsburgh on my CB radio (27,000 kc band). VHF starts from 30,000 kC (30 Mc) and goes to 300 Mc. The lower the frequency, the longer the range usually but you get more manmade noise too. 30 - 50 Mc (VHF-Lo) is used for longer distance comms by the military, State Police units, Fire departments, and so on when they are over a wide area, say several counties. In Europe, VHF-Lo is usually from 66 - 88 Mc. Most military comms take place in the 29 - 88 Mc range, 30 - 54 Mc in the Western Hemisphere and 30 - 88 Mc in Europe. Here in the US, I usually find them in the 30, 32, 34, 36, 38 Mc ranges along with a few other places in the VHF-Lo band. The communication range can be like up to 50 miles depending on terrain, antenna height, transmitter power, etc. When the sunspots are high, you can talk for thousands of miles. Noise interference levels can be high at times so this band is suited for a lot of rural and suburban areas. VHF-Hi is found from 137 - 174 Mc where some military comms take place in the 137 - 144 and 148 - 150 Mc areas but they tend to be for local areas such as guardposts at a base. Some bases have switched to UHF in the 406 - 420 Mc range too. Single Sideband, aka SSB. Every radio signal has three parts, a carrier in the middle and an upper and lower sideband which is modulated. The two sidebands carry the audio to the radio program. Now if you remove the radio carrier and one of the sidebands, you are left with only one sideband, aka "Single Sideband" (SSB). This is mostly used on the shortwave bands for long distance communications because SSB signals don't take up as much bandwidth (space) in the radio spectrum. The downside is that unless you have a radio that can receive SSB, it will sound like "Donald Duck" when you tune them in. Radios that can get SSB have a BFO (Beat Frequency Oscillator) that "reinserts" the carrier inside the radio so you can tune the signal in. The rul of thumb in radio communications is that below 10 Mc, Lower Sideband (LSB) is used and above Upper Sideband (USB) is used. Some stations to make a compromise and broadcast a carrier (sometimes weakened) with only one of the sidebands to save some bandwidth yet make it easy for regular radios to hear the signal too. I think in the world of Twilight: 2000 you'd see a huge comeback in HF (Shortwave) communications since the satellites will be out of commission due to direct strikes or attrition as they are worn out. Most military comms use Narrowband FM mode from 30 Mc and up and thus could be picked up on a scanner unless they are scrambled. Jamming? I guess the best bet is jamming would work if it is in a localized area. I remember when the USSR jammed the shortwave from the West, it didn't work too well all the time due to the constant changes in the ionosphere so signals can still get through. In a nutshell, most communications will be screwed up when a nuke goes off from about 520 kc (bottom of the AM band) to maybe the top of the FM band (108 Mc) for a while, especially in the lower frequencies. An interesting fact is that if you set off a nuke in the Northern Hemisphere, the ionosphere will distribute the same communications jamming properties to the opposite latitude in the Southern Hemisphere due to the Compton Effect. This was first discovered by Project Argus in the late 1950's during some tests. I have a good article on this in one of my ham radio magazines and a 1959 Life Magazine article on Project Argus. UHF signals will be least affected during a nuclear attack although VHF-Hi might be used too. EMP, if you shield the radio by disconnecting the antenna, power cords, microphone cords, etc and put it in a metal box that is grounded, it will be OK. Also too, radios with tubes will be immune since vacuum tubes can take higher voltage transients than transistors or IC chips. In a Twilight: 2000 world, you'd see a return to a lot of simple radios, perhaps even using tubes. Crystal sets will be popular since they don't use batteries. There are many types you can make from the standard crystal sets they had in the 1920's to even the "Foxhole Radio" that many GI's made in WWII. I have quite a few books from the 1920's to the 1970's on radio so there are many plans in there. Hams would become a main part of the communications network again, especially for the civilian sector. I wish I could go into detail here but I'm getting a bit long so I'll leave it up to questions from anyone who has any. Chuck DE KA3WRW - ----- "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #52 ************************************ To subscribe to Twilight2000-Digest, send the command: subscribe twilight2000-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com". 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