twilight2000-digest Wednesday, July 21 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 050 The following topics are covered in this digest: RE: New America Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 RE: New America Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 Re: New America Re: New America Turret movement RE: New America Single shots with MG Re: New America Re: New America Re: New America Thoughts Re: New America Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts RE: Thoughts RE: Thoughts RE: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts RE: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts Re: Thoughts ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:42:29 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: New America > ---------- > From: Dwight Looney > Howling Wilderness is absolutely essential if your to follow T.R.'s and my > pie fights over in WebRpg. It's a rag, a total Traveler TNE vessel to > facilitate the tie in of GDW products. Never saw it till recently, I'm > glad, because I lost I.Q. points when I read it. :-) > Is HW the GDW supernatural T2K module? > ---------- > From: Dwight Looney > > What the heck was the plotline of Traveler: TNE by the way? > > Never even saw it back then in the old days... > First off I'm no Traveler expert I played cuz I had ta, u play mine I play > yurz. I threw the T2K squad into the Bermuda Triangle, into the > future. Tried it once grunts didn't like it. > I *like* this idea; I'll use it to get T2k2.2 PCs to TNE if we are too lazy to roll up a second set of characters just for TNE. (According to SNL: the Bermuda Triangle is actually just the fly portion of a much larger area called the Bermuda Shorts;^) TNE's universe is so large that you can play what ever Sci-Fi background that you like. The "plotline" is rebuilding interstellar relationships (commerce, diplomacy, war) a generation after the collapse of interstellar society that resulted from interstellar civil war. The main baddies are almost any machine with any decent processing power. (A pretty technophobic background for a Sci-Fi game actually.) Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:35:58 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 Chris Cranston wrote: 3. My last question is a more general one about how life would be after WWIII: Would people still gather together in population centres such as cities, towns e.t.c or would society spread out over all the available farming land to grow enough food ? I think the answer to both questions is yes. I think that a lot of the people that have never lived anywhere but a city will tend to stay very near to what they know, and that people who have either not lived there whole lives in a city or who do a lot of camping, fishing, etc on vacations and the like are going to head for the country side. My feelings are that it would probably be the latter. I agree that the majority will head for the country. To explain, we had a discussion a while ago on this list about how farmers in western society rely so much on modern machinery (tractors e.t.c) & chemicals (pesticides e.t.c), so without power and fuel they would be next to useless. Would farmers in the US even have the knowledge to operate small, primitive farms - probably not (and how much food does the US import as opposed to export ?). I believe that most US farmers only use the pesticides and chemicals to make there lives easier, and that most would have no problem going without these items. Most farmers in the US are third or fourth generation, and quite a few are seventh or eight generation. The knowledge learned by one is pasted to the next, and so on. Tracktors and other machinery will quickly get replaced with farm hands, mostly those people who leave the towns and cities to live in the country. I think what you would see is a return to the ranches of the mid 1800s, except that these will be farming collectives, instead of owned by one person or family, the farm will be owned by a group of farmers and/or there families. While the farms may not produce as much as they used to they will still produce enough to feed those who are living on them and I think produce enough of a surplus to can some and trade some. According to the 2nd edition rulebook there are still 135.2 million people left in the US - how could they possibly all be fed with no power, no economy, no oil, no cities, no government, no nothing ? A horrible famine would occur and every US citizen still alive would surely move to the country side to grow whatever they can. This is not a very pleasant issue to discuss, but is one I would like to hear others opinions on nonetheless. The way I look at it is that the nukes killed half the population, leaving the 135mill. Next came the wars, street fights for canned goods, medical supplies, and weapons/ammo. Also, the race wars, this is where organizations like New America, the KKK, Aryan Nation, etc start there "cleansing". Lastly during this time the N.B.C. contamination taks its toll and does famine and normal illnesses that usually wouldn't be fatal. After this is done, the remainig population as of July2K in my world is only about 90mill. Thats my thoughts. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:10:53 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: New America At 12:42 PM 7/18/99 -0500, Garcia, Abel wrote: >TNE's universe is so large that you can play what ever Sci-Fi background >that you like. The "plotline" is rebuilding interstellar relationships >(commerce, diplomacy, war) a generation after the collapse of interstellar >society that resulted from interstellar civil war. The main baddies are >almost any machine with any decent processing power. (A pretty >technophobic background for a Sci-Fi game actually.) > Howling Wilderness (and everything after it) actually ties TW2000 into Traveller: 2300 (later renamed 2300AD), in which France is the dominant world power. Need I say more about how silly a setting it is? The similarity to Traveller: New Empires is that, as in TNE, HW introduced a sudden, and generally unwanted, transformation of an established game "universe" (and as I recall, the same people were responsible for both HW and TNE). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 17:22:17 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Texas in Twilight: 2000 At 01:35 PM 7/18/99 -0700, Ron Hale wrote: >Chris Cranston wrote: >To explain, we had a discussion a while ago on this list about how farmers in >western society rely so much on modern machinery (tractors e.t.c) & chemicals >(pesticides e.t.c), so without power and fuel they would be next to useless. >Would farmers in the US even have the knowledge to operate small, primitive >farms - probably not (and how much food does the US import as opposed to >export >?). > >I believe that most US farmers only use the pesticides and chemicals to make >there lives easier, and that most would have no problem going without these >items. Lacking these things would likely lower productivity (though in many cases this is debatable), as would a lack of machinery and lack of hybridized seeds (you can't produce these on your own, without the two parent strains--the hybrids are fertile but don't reproduce copies of themselves). "[t]o make their lives easier" translates directly into "less labor", which means either fewer workers or more production. >Most farmers in the US are third or fourth generation, and quite a few >are seventh or eight generation. The knowledge learned by one is pasted to >the next, and so on. Tracktors and other machinery will quickly get replaced >with farm hands, mostly those people who leave the towns and cities to live >in the country. I think what you would see is a return to the ranches of the >mid 1800s, except that these will be farming collectives, instead of owned by >one person or family, the farm will be owned by a group of farmers and/or >there families. "Ranches" is the name given to large cattle farms; it doesn't refer to most farms in the U.S. in the 1800's. The vast majority of land in the 1800's was farmed by small farmers who owned their own land, sometimes with the help of a handful of farmhands. One exception was some ranches in the Southwest--but remember that, while a lot of these were big in terms of land, you need a lot of land to produce a given amount of food when you're dealing with cattle rather than crops, and so a lot of these were also small family operations. The other big exception was the plantations in the South, which used a lot of slave labor (this was I think due primarily to the properties of the crops involved, though I'm not really clear on the details); after the Civil War a lot of the same farms were farmed by ex-slaves as share-croppers--though it should be noted that many whites also farmed as share-croppers. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:58:02 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: New America >Is HW the GDW supernatural T2K module? I think you're refering to Twilight Nightmares? There's a couple of interesting scenarios in there, but most of them are way too weird for me. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 19:20:57 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: New America >Howling Wilderness (and everything after it) actually ties TW2000 into >Traveller: 2300 (later renamed 2300AD), in which France is the dominant >world power. Need I say more about how silly a setting it is? Still, it's probably the best "hard" sci-fi RPG ever, the combat system was a bit clunky but you got used to it, if you can get a hold of it, give it a try. It's also got a huge internet following. Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 15:03:48 +0300 From: Puolakka Petri Subject: Turret movement How many degrees per second a tank turret turns? M1A1? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:04:40 -0500 From: "Garcia, Abel" Subject: RE: New America > ---------- > From: Jim & Peta Lawrie > >Howling Wilderness (and everything after it) actually ties TW2000 > into > >Traveller: 2300 (later renamed 2300AD), in which France is the > dominant > >world power. Need I say more about how silly a setting it is? > > Still, it's probably the best "hard" sci-fi RPG ever, the combat > system > was a bit clunky but you got used to it, if you can get a hold of it, give > it a try. It's also got a huge internet following. > As I remember it - the GDW crew gamed a political version of T2K in something like 10 year rounds. That way they would have a history for the past (next) 300 years (T2.3K). Probably what happened is that Frank Chadwick got to play France and kicked butt. Is there an "old" #;^) GDW staffer out on this list that knows a little more? Abel *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:48:25 +0100 From: "Lee Williams" Subject: Single shots with MG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BED1ED.5FC2AA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here's my tuppence worth on this issue of MGs firing single shots. I = think it was Goran who said he could do it with a MAG-58. As an = ex-number two to my squad's machine gunner, I can confirm that this is = the case, if you have the touch for it. The weapon in my case was the = L7A1 GPMG (British version of the MAG 58). Also, I must point out that = the same thing must be possible with the American M60, as it has a lower = cyclic rate then the GPMG (about two-thirds I think) Lee. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BED1ED.5FC2AA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable here's my tuppence worth on this = issue of MGs=20 firing single shots. I think it was Goran who said he could do it with a = MAG-58.=20 As an ex-number two to my squad's machine gunner, I can confirm that = this is the=20 case, if you have the touch for it. The weapon in my case was the L7A1 = GPMG=20 (British version of the MAG 58). Also, I must point out that the same = thing must=20 be possible with the American M60, as it has a lower cyclic rate then = the GPMG=20 (about two-thirds I think) Lee. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BED1ED.5FC2AA40-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:16:34 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: New America Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: Still, it's probably the best "hard" sci-fi RPG ever, the combat system was a bit clunky but you got used to it, if you can get a hold of it, give it a try. It's also got a huge internet following. I'm a big TNE fan are there any lists like this one for it. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 13:38:41 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: New America Scott David Orr wrote: Howling Wilderness (and everything after it) actually ties TW2000 into Traveller: 2300 (later renamed 2300AD), in which France is the dominant world power. Need I say more about how silly a setting it is? The similarity to Traveller: New Empires is that, as in TNE, HW introduced a sudden, and generally unwanted, transformation of an established game "universe" (and as I recall, the same people were responsible for both HW and TNE). Actually when you look at the condition of France compared to the rest of the world, it makes "some" since as to how they could become the dominant power. The way I'm setting up my campaign the French are going to invade Germany in the summer of 2001. Just like they invaded to secure a no-mans land. The exception is that this time they are going after the oil fields and industrial areas of Germany. To this end they have already started raids along the border. These raids are designed to unbalance the forces in the area and to deprive them of supply, by destroying and/or stealing what supply they have. With the Frenches air power and the total lack of opposition to it even the French should be able to secure there objectives. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 17:45:08 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Re: New America >Still, it's probably the best "hard" sci-fi RPG ever, the combat system was a >bit clunky but you got used to it, if you can get a hold of it, give it a try. >It's also got a huge internet following. > >I'm a big TNE fan are there any lists like this one for it. >TTFN >Ron Hale search for " pentapods world" and follow the links. I'd post the URL, but I dont want to get my head bitten off. Jim. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:03:31 +1000 From: "Jim & Peta Lawrie" Subject: Thoughts This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BED2DA.2D5066E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've never really had much problem with the T2k history as written = in the first rulesset, except maybe two..... First off, I'm Australian, so I'm not really talking about something = I know much about, but I can't see the USA pulling out of Europe as = presented in "Going Home". It just doesn't seem the way that I see the = yanks behaving, not sticking it out. With most enemy units down to 10% = strength I've always felt the US would try for some kind of resolution = of the conflict before they pulled their troops out. Secondly, does anyone see the US fracturing into two governments ? = I've always thought of Americans as one of the most patriotic people in = the world. (Sometimes scarily so.) I definitely can't see this condition = persisting for long. Any thoughts / Jim. - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BED2DA.2D5066E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've=20 never really had much problem with the T2k history as written in the = first=20 rulesset, except maybe two..... First=20 off, I'm Australian, so I'm not really talking about something I know = much=20 about, but I can't see the USA pulling out of Europe as presented in = "Going=20 Home". It just doesn't seem the way that I see the yanks behaving, = not=20 sticking it out. With most enemy units down to 10% strength I've always = felt the=20 US would try for some kind of resolution of the conflict before they = pulled=20 their troops out. Secondly,=20 does anyone see the US fracturing into two governments ? I've always = thought of=20 Americans as one of the most patriotic people in the world. (Sometimes = scarily=20 so.) I definitely can't see this condition persisting for=20 long. Any=20 thoughts / =20 Jim. - ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01BED2DA.2D5066E0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:02:39 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: New America Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: search for " pentapods world" and follow the links. I'd post the URL, but I dont want to get my head bitten off. Jim. Thanks Lots TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 13:44:22 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Thoughts Jim & Peta Lawrie wrote: I can't see the USA pulling out of Europe as presented in "Going Home". With most enemy units down to 10% strength I've always felt the US would try for some kind of resolution of the conflict before they pulled their troops out. I could see the US pulling out of the war so they can contend with the home front. Remember, they have Russian and Mexican Troops occuping a good portion of the US. Also, bandits, marauders, highwaymen, etc. The military is needed at home to reclaim the country. While CivGov wants to continue the war, MilGov takes a more realistic view of the situation and realizes that they can't wage a war without supplies, and men, trained men. To provide this it needs a "Base of Power". Secondly, does anyone see the US fracturing into two governments ? Yes, most definitely. Under the circumstances in the timeline, the military had no choice. I've always thought of Americans as one of the most patriotic people in the world. (Sometimes scarily so.) Sadly, the words patriot and patriotism are now used along with words like redneck, radical, fanatic, terrorist, etc. It is getting to the point that if you own a firearm, a flag, and more than one box of shells for the firearm you are a rightwing, gun fanatic. I definitely can't see this condition persisting for long. No it won't, once MilGov gets an army back together and retakes the plains and oil fields of Oklahoma and Texas, they will have the "Base of Power" they need for rebuilding and renewal of the war. After that it won't take any time at all for a new census and elections will soon follow. The census may not be the whole country, but it will include those areas under MilGov and probably CivGov control. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 16:11:14 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: Thoughts > >Sadly, the words patriot and patriotism are now used along with words >like redneck, radical, fanatic, terrorist, etc. It is getting to the >point that if you own a firearm, a flag, and more than one box of shells >for the firearm you are a rightwing, gun fanatic. > Ah, But you are forgetting something this is the year 2000 the world is in ruins most major cities are wiped off the map....... which leaves us...... GUN CARRYING "REDNECKS"!! Besides, even if you did live though the nukes it would kinda be hard to live withOUT a firearm and LESS than a box of shells, and i don't know what you think america is coming to (well we aren't going in the right direction but...) there are still America lovers out there. Now if we can juuuuuuust get rid of some of these liberals! C "Bubba" JONES p.s. What is wrong with being a rightwing, gun fanatic!?! ;) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 08:34:36 +0300 From: Puolakka Petri Subject: RE: Thoughts IMHO: The thing about t2k view of future is, that it is based on a reality, where rednecks, gun fanatics and yes, even militiamen were proven right. What they believed, happened. So of course their survival-rate is higher and of course there are less people, who take the constructive and humanistic point of view on problemsolving. Also, when proven right these fanatics gain more influence over things and in the minds of common man. In this light, the scenario that most of the countries are chaotic in some degree seems highly more propable. And when USA has lots of these... un-humanistic? substances, it should be clear that peace and order would be hard to achieve. USA also lacks the tradition of order without excessive use of force and authority. Thus, it is likely that USA will not be the dominant world power, when there will be international commerce and interaction. Of course, Europe would be in generally a greater mess, but there would be some centers of order and prosperity... Such as the land of arrogant frenchmen. The reasonable thing for US (MilGov+CivGov) would be to withdraw from Europe, in short timeline, that is. On the long run, can the US afford to leave Europe in the hands of pact? Is there enought inner friction and conflict in Europe so that the East-European-West-Asian empire can be avoided? Maybe. Now, having insulted the french, the americans and my english teacher, I would like to add this: only opinions based on what I have read and thought... I do not claim to be an expert. - -----Original Message----- From: C Jones To: twilight2000@lists.imagiconline.com Sent: 21.7.1999 2:11 Subject: Re: Thoughts > >Sadly, the words patriot and patriotism are now used along with words >like redneck, radical, fanatic, terrorist, etc. It is getting to the >point that if you own a firearm, a flag, and more than one box of shells >for the firearm you are a rightwing, gun fanatic. > Ah, But you are forgetting something this is the year 2000 the world is in ruins most major cities are wiped off the map....... which leaves us...... GUN CARRYING "REDNECKS"!! Besides, even if you did live though the nukes it would kinda be hard to live withOUT a firearm and LESS than a box of shells, and i don't know what you think america is coming to (well we aren't going in the right direction but...) there are still America lovers out there. Now if we can juuuuuuust get rid of some of these liberals! C "Bubba" JONES p.s. What is wrong with being a rightwing, gun fanatic!?! ;) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ************************************************************************ *** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 02:00:50 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: RE: Thoughts At 08:34 AM 7/21/99 +0300, Puolakka Petri wrote: > >USA also lacks the tradition of order >without excessive use of force and authority. WHAT??? I think a reading of U.S. history will show that the use of force by the government in the U.S. has on the whole been lighter than that in most other countries. I think perhaps you're mistaking a violent society for government through violence. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:44:36 +0300 From: Puolakka Petri Subject: RE: Thoughts >WHAT??? >I think a reading of U.S. history will show that the use of force by the >government in the U.S. has on the whole been lighter than that in most >other countries. I think perhaps you're mistaking a violent society for >government through violence. Ahhum... well... yes, let's drop that "force"... (Forgetting the 60'ies and seventies, which are not relevant here) And sorry, my vocalibury is not too wide. What I perhaps was meaning was that in many countries the law enforcement tradition does not so much rely on authority and the force potential behind it. More, there's some sort of voluntary obedience to the law, which is not so much based on hard punishments. But, it is clear that in a nation as heterogenous as US this can never be established. But, this means that in chaotic circumstances US will need *very much* force potential behind law enforcement. Maybe more than there is available in a cituation after and during WW3. Also, in countries where there is a tradition of unconditional obedience, the peaceful conditions necessary for the economy to start over would be very easy to achieve. This means that SE-Asia and Japan in particular are in good position. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:25:09 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Thoughts Puolakka Petri wrote: All very true. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 00:35:44 -0700 From: Ron Hale Subject: Re: Thoughts C Jones wrote: Ah, But you are forgetting something this is the year 2000 the world is in ruins most major cities are wiped off the map....... which leaves us...... GUN CARRYING "REDNECKS"!! Along with several thousand criminals that illegaly own firearms, now. Besides, even if you did live though the nukes it would kinda be hard to live withOUT a firearm and LESS than a box of shells, Can I get an amen on this one? and i don't know what you think america is coming to Lets just say that, thinking about nearly makes me vomit. (well we aren't going in the right direction but...) The Understatement of the Millineum. there are still America lovers out there. And I'm am one, that is why it pisses me off so much. Now if we can juuuuuuust get rid of some of these liberals! OH RAH TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 06:45:04 PDT From: "C Jones" Subject: Re: Thoughts >most major cities are wiped off the map > several thousand criminals that illegaly own firearms > Now this is all hypothetical but don't you think that most of thoughs crimals live in major cities and if they lived long enough don't you think they would kill each other in gang wars?? Alas there will always be crime. but this is all an opinion however you want to play the game you can back to work, hi ho, hi ho,..... C JONES _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 15:56:59 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bergstr=F6m?= Subject: RE: Thoughts >WHAT??? > >I think a reading of U.S. history will show that the use of force by the >government in the U.S. has on the whole been lighter than that in most >other countries. I think perhaps you're mistaking a violent society for >government through violence. > >Scott Orr >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com >with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. Hhmm, may I just say: Manifest Destiny, The American Civil War, The Indian Wars (Wounded Knee anyone?), The Spanish-American War, the treatment of the Philippines during the first decades of the 20th century, the "Domino Theory", Bay of Pigs, the Invasion of Grenada, the Invasion of Panama, and so on. (For those wanting to know more, I can recommend "A History of World Societies" by McKay, Hill, Buckler,copyright 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company) However, I wouldn't say that the U.S. has acted worse than any other nation. What my university classes in history has indicated is that almost all of the countries that are today industrialized, have at one time or another been "international bullies", using force to take what they wanted, regardless of what might be right or wrong, especially when dealing with nations and peoples deemed "inferior". Cheers, Goeran - ------------------- "Credo quia impossibile" Address: Lundavägen 27 S-175 64 JÄRFÄLLA SWEDEN Phone: +46 8 760 08 77 +46 70 664 94 29 Email: seton@hem1.passagen.se *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 07:19:55 PDT From: "Stephen Dragoo" Subject: Re: Thoughts >>Sadly, the words patriot and patriotism are now used along with words >>like redneck, radical, fanatic, terrorist, etc. It is getting to the >>point that if you own a firearm, a flag, and more than one box of shells >>for the firearm you are a rightwing, gun fanatic. >> > >Ah, But you are forgetting something this is the year 2000 the world is in >ruins most major cities are wiped off the map....... which leaves us...... >GUN CARRYING "REDNECKS"!! > >Besides, even if you did live though the nukes it would kinda be hard to >live withOUT a firearm and LESS than a box of shells, and i don't know what >you think america is coming to (well we aren't going in the right direction >but...) there are still America lovers out there. Don't know if anyone's ever read them or not, but an interesting series of books is the Ashes series by William W. Johnstone. Besides the fact that the author and the main character, Benjamin Raines, are both very conservative, gun-loving, patriotic right-wingers, it describes a post-Apocalyptic world where the main focus is on Ben's dream of rebuilding America to correct the mistakes made by modern society, using scrounged and stolen military equipment (including some old WWII favorites like the M-42 Duster and M1 Thompson SMG). >Now if we can juuuuuuust get rid of some of these liberals! I personaly like the Raines philosophy: Liberals can either grab a gun and defend themselves, or they can get the hell out of town, because no one sits on their ass around here! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 09:12:49 -0700 From: "JC" Subject: Re: Thoughts >Now this is all hypothetical but don't you think that most of thoughs >crimals live in major cities and if they lived long enough don't you think >they would kill each other in gang wars?? Alas there will always be crime. > >but this is all an opinion however you want to play the game you can > True, but don't forget about marauders and such, which are probably the most heavily armed criminals of all now. Regards, JC *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 14:01:18 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Thoughts Stephen Dragoo wrote: > >>Sadly, the words patriot and patriotism are now used along with words > >>like redneck, radical, fanatic, terrorist, etc. It is getting to the > >>point that if you own a firearm, a flag, and more than one box of shells > >>for the firearm you are a rightwing, gun fanatic. > >> > > > >Ah, But you are forgetting something this is the year 2000 the world is in > >ruins most major cities are wiped off the map....... which leaves us...... > >GUN CARRYING "REDNECKS"!! > > > >Besides, even if you did live though the nukes it would kinda be hard to > >live withOUT a firearm and LESS than a box of shells, and i don't know what > >you think america is coming to (well we aren't going in the right direction > >but...) there are still America lovers out there. > > Don't know if anyone's ever read them or not, but an interesting series of > books is the Ashes series by William W. Johnstone. Besides the fact that > the author and the main character, Benjamin Raines, are both very > conservative, gun-loving, patriotic right-wingers, it describes a > post-Apocalyptic world where the main focus is on Ben's dream of rebuilding > America to correct the mistakes made by modern society, using scrounged and > stolen military equipment (including some old WWII favorites like the M-42 > Duster and M1 Thompson SMG). > > >Now if we can juuuuuuust get rid of some of these liberals! > > I personaly like the Raines philosophy: > > Liberals can either grab a gun and defend themselves, or they can get the > hell out of town, because no one sits on their ass around here! > Yes we must defend ourselves should King George--or those damn apes-- ever return. Even if the highly trained American populace cannot keep ol George from invading, well we can sure keep him on his toes like those fine IRA patriots. I mean the right to bear arms is necessary in order to maintain a militia so we can blow those federal buildings up, right? And who is gonna control those Injuns without a colt. With guns we can defend ourselves against anyone (well maybe not ourselves, but how important are several tens of thousands of people anyway as long as I can go to the range on weekends). Shucks anyone who doesn't support guns is a frickin lazy ass liberal right. They're not patriots, they're commies tryin to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. So some people are dying ... We need to defend the ideals and traditions and values, THEY are the very foundations of this country. Die in silence liberals! http://www.theonion.com/onion3520/second_amendment.html - -- ([-[Peter Vieth]-) (-[fitek@ix.netcom.com]-) (-[http://www.netcom.com/~fitek]-) *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #50 ************************************ To subscribe to Twilight2000-Digest, send the command: subscribe twilight2000-digest in the body of a message to "majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com". 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