twilight2000-digest Sunday, February 7 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 009 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Armor 21? Re: RMP (was re: European Theatre Comment) Re: European Theatre SF Activity Re: European Theatre SF Activity Re: European Theatre SF Activity Re: European Theatre SF Activity Re: Alternate Timelines US SF units AND the US Army Guard / Reserve Re: Question on British military Re: Question on British military BTR-T Re: BTR-T Re: Question on British military Re: BTR-T Re: Question on British military Re: BTR-T Re: BTR-T Re: BTR-T Re: BTR-T Re: Question on British military AA guns on tanks? Re: AA guns on tanks? Re: BTR-T Re: AA guns on tanks? Please Pardon This Test [none] [none] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:12:52 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: Re: Armor 21? This is the 3rd or 4th mailing list asking about Armor 21. Certainly seems a lot of interest in it. Here's what I believe happened. Upon the breakup of GDW the rights to any works published or umpublished reverted to the authors. Armor 21 was a Dave Nilsen idea. Last heard he was working as a consultant for the US Army (the real one). He has basically left the wargaming/RPG community. From what I understand Armor 21 was supposed to be a T2K RPG supplement and a wargame as seperate releases. It was to be set around 2030-40, in Africa with Europe and the US shaping up. Damn... Peter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:12:57 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: Re: RMP (was re: European Theatre Comment) Roger Stenning wrote: uh-huh: Calling an MP a 'Monkey' is a guarantee to a charge under S.69 A.A. 1955, to wit: "Behaviour likely to cause a breach of good army discipline". And you would, in all probability "fall down the stairs"... Me feeling guilty about that bar in Hong Kong: Advice given to Royal Australian Navy sailors 1989, Hong Kong: "Don't get arrested by the redcaps. They'll arrest you after you've fallen down the stairs or walked into a wall." Peter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:12:42 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity I think the 5th SF Group was responsible for Europe. I have some info on them, I'll have to dig it up. They had the sewers of Berlin mapped for some reason.... Peter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:59:11 -0600 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity OK, I guess I'll repost this. Here is the current, REAL USSF locations and areas of responsibility. This probably differs from the info that TW2000 gives; remember, that the game was written in the mid 80's, lots of stuff has changed since then. 1st SFG: East Asia (to include E. Russia) 1st Bn: Okinawa, Japan 2nd, 3rd Bn: Fort Lewis, WA 3rd SFG: Africa and Caribbean All 3 Bns: Fort Bragg, NC 5th SFG: SouthWest Asia (ie: the middle east) All 3 Bns: Fort Campbell, KY 7th SFG: Central and South America All 3 Bns: Fort Bragg, NC EXCEPT: C CO, 3/7 SFG is in Panama 10th SFG: Europe (to inc. W. Russia) 1st Bn: Bad Tolz, Germany 2nd, 3rd Bn: Fort Carson, CO 19th and 20th SFGs are USAR / NG units. They have three Bns each; they support the active SFGs -- usually, about one USAR n NG SF BN is oriented the same as one active SF Group. Basic SF MTOE info: Each SFG is Cmd'd by a COL and has 3 Bn's Each SF Bn is Cmd'd by a LTC and has 3 Co's Each SF Co is cmd'd by a MAJ and has six ODAs (A-Teams) Each ODA is cmd'd by a CPT and has 12 personnel assigned Note that these are "authorized" strengths; currently, you will RARELY find an ODA with all 12 personell assigned (much less in time of war with attrition rates, slow replacement times due to the length of SF training, etc). Hope this helps, BK Flood - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Grining To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 2:40 AM Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity >I think the 5th SF Group was responsible for Europe. I have some info on >them, I'll have to dig it up. They had the sewers of Berlin mapped for some >reason.... > >Peter > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:35:59 -0500 From: "RCamp" Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity I haven't seen it. Could you repost? Ray - -----Original Message----- From: Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 7:03 PM Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity >Did my reply to this message ever get posted? I sent it from my hotmail >account -- its been acting up, lately. > >BKF > > >-----Original Message----- >From: bootboy@niagara.com >To: Twilight2000 (E-mail) >Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:57 AM >Subject: European Theatre SF Activity > > >>Does anyone have any theories or knowledge of the American Special Forces >>(Green Berets) in the European Theatre of Operations? >> >>The information that I have is limited to: >> >>The 19th Special Forces Group is responsible for European operations. (The >>information that I have is that the 19th is a National Guard unit??) >> >>I have information on the organization of a SFG (got to love Field >>Manuals!) >> >>I believe that the Group was based in Bad Tolz, Germany. >> >>So with this, I'm trying to flesh out the SF involvement in the ETO. >>Specifically, I would like opinions on where the Guerrilla Warfare >>Operational Areas would be designated, the probable locations of the SFOB's >>(Special Forces Operational Bases), current numbers of personnel left, >>etc... >> >>Ray. >> >>**************************************************************** *********** >>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >>'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. >> > >***************************************************************** ********** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:03:38 -0500 From: "RCamp" Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity The 5th is responsible for the Middle East. They performed operations in Desert Storm. The 1st SFG is responsible for operations in the Far East. The 3rd SFG is responsible for operations in Africa, including North Africa. The 5th has the Middle East. The 7th has Central and South America. The 19th has Europe As best as I know -- the 1st, 5th, 7th and 10th SFG are regular force units (I don't have any idea yet where the 10th has responsibility, maybe its North America...). The 11th and 12th SFG are Army Reserve units, and I don't have information on where their assigned areas would be. There is also the 19th and 20th SFG which are National Guard units. Does this make sense? Why would they assign the 19th to Europe if it's a National Guard unit? Maybe they have upgraded the 19th over the years to a regular unit, and based them at Bad Tolz. My source is the GDW Gulf War Fact Book and The Green Berets (The illustrated Combat Series) by Hans Halberstadt. Ray - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Grining To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:35 AM Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity >I think the 5th SF Group was responsible for Europe. I have some info on >them, I'll have to dig it up. They had the sewers of Berlin mapped for some >reason.... > >Peter > >***************************************************************** ********** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:41:11 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines > In a few years, and perhaps in an alternative future, China COULD instigate > a regional conflict by invading Taiwan (which the Chinese insist is merely a > "rebel province" of China). China's goal is to become the regional leader of East Asia. Thus they see their primary opponent as Japan, and second to that Russia. The US and Europe are seen as 'temporary' players in the area. China is following a path to ensure that when (not if) the US leaves the area that she is fully equipped to fill the power void. China isn't ready right now, and also doesn't want Japan building up, so for now, China needs the US to remain. That is why China threatens Taiwan, and makes noise over Korea and the Spratlys. These ensure a continued US military deployement to Asia, which in turn limits Japan's ability to expand (if the US Navy stops patrolling, Japan has an excuse to violate her own constitution and increase her forces drastically, and if the US leaves S.Korea, then perhaps there is even a chance of a Japanese deployment there to fulfill Korean-Japanese mutual defense agreements--such things are unacceptable to China). Once China feels she is ready to control the region over both Russia and Japan, she will then puch for the US to leave, which done right, should not be overly difficult (peaceful behaviour for a few years, along with reigning in rogues like N.Korea, will go a long way to giving the US an excuse to lower its forces in Asia). The risk here is that China will miscalculate and feel she has the ability to enforce her regional leadership when she does not. This could definitely lead to a long and drawn out struggle involving some of the most powerful nations (China, Russia, the US, and Japan). > Remember also that many of China's enemies AND allies in the region have > nuclear arms -- or are very close to it (North Korea, India, Pakistan). China is not a nuclear threat for a first strike in her current situation. However, she will support N.Korea's program. China doesn't want N.Korea to have nukes any more than the US does, but by supporting a program that China can control (hence keep from ever actually building a nuke), China can force the US hand (the anti-Nuke/Chem/Bio movement is currently the US's 'holy grail' if you will). If the US stops worrying so much about N.Korea's nukes (and world WMDs in general), look for China to cause NK's program to collapse. India and Pakistan are a nuclear threat (to eachother), and India may even launch against China if that conflict erupts. India is relatively stable however, so the most likely would be (as in T2K), if India is winning a ground war with Pakistan and Paki launches as a desperate measure. --S2000 _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:20:04 -0600 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: US SF units AND the US Army Guard / Reserve Uh, your info is not completely correct. OK, let me post this AGAIN. My source is the US SOCOM 1998 Posture Statement. You can find it at www.defenselink.mil I'm pretty confident in its validity: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 10th SFG are active groups: 1st: East Asia and Pacific 3rd: Sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean 5th: Southwest Asia 7th: Latin and South America 10th: Europe and Meditteranean Africa I believe I have posted the locations of these units' battalions in previous messages..... There are *TWO* NG SFG's: 19th SFG (NG) is based out of Draper, UT. 20th SFG (NG) is based out of Birmingham, AL. Yes, they are *NG SFGs.* They have the mission of SUPPORTING the active groups in the active areas. However, if anyone were to stay in the US during the Twilight war, it would be Guardsmen, I would think. A few words about the US Army National Guard and Reserve: About 3 or 4 years ago, the US Army re-arranged itself so that the vast majority of "reserve" combat units are in the Guard. The majority of combat support and combat svc support units are in the Reserve. The line blurs between the "homefront" mission of the Guard. Just this winter, the US Army engineer units that deployed to Central America to assist with the aftermath of Hurricane Mitch were GUARD units. Every year, Guard engineer units from across the US come to Central and South America to do "nation-building" projects (schools, clinics, etc). For instance, in Feb 99, a group of Guardsmen from the Louisiana national guard will go to Honduras to do projects related to the damage done by Mitch. Last year, I visited a Guard unit from Kentucky that was doing projects in Ecuador (I'm a -- active duty -- US Army officer stationed in Panama) This is the current information; if you choose to take info from GAME sourcebooks or other resources published earlier, so be it. REMEMBER: the US Army conducted a MASSIVE Reduction-IN-Force after the Gulf War. Part of that process was a reorganizing of many units. Hell, the first unit I served in (the 2nd ACR) had once been a tank-and-bradley cavalry unit in stationed in Germany. When I got to the unit in 1993, they were equipped (and still are) with HUMVEE's (no, they never got the AGS -- the program was cancelled) and were stationed in Fort Polk, Louisiana! Thus, you may choose to use the "traditional" Twilight OOBs that were current during the Cold War, OR you may use the current OOBs and adjust the backround to fit your campaign. That's the beauty of running a fictional game -- reality can be ignored! :-) Brian - -----Original Message----- From: RCamp To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:22 AM Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity >The 5th is responsible for the Middle East. They performed >operations in Desert Storm. >The 1st SFG is responsible for operations in the Far East. >The 3rd SFG is responsible for operations in Africa, including >North Africa. >The 5th has the Middle East. >The 7th has Central and South America. >The 19th has Europe > >As best as I know -- the 1st, 5th, 7th and 10th SFG are regular >force units (I don't have any idea yet where the 10th has >responsibility, maybe its North America...). The 11th and 12th >SFG are Army Reserve units, and I don't have information on where >their assigned areas would be. There is also the 19th and 20th SFG >which are National Guard units. Does this make sense? Why would >they assign the 19th to Europe if it's a National Guard unit? >Maybe they have upgraded the 19th over the years to a regular >unit, and based them at Bad Tolz. My source is the GDW Gulf War >Fact Book and The Green Berets (The illustrated Combat Series) by >Hans Halberstadt. > >Ray > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Peter Grining >To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM >Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:35 AM >Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity > > >>I think the 5th SF Group was responsible for Europe. I have some >info on >>them, I'll have to dig it up. They had the sewers of Berlin >mapped for some >>reason.... >> >>Peter >> >>***************************************************************** >********** >>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com >with the line >>'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. >> > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:38:29 EST From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Question on British military Hey, what the fuck is going on here I cancled my subscription a long time ago and today the shit pops back off. I want off you guys all smell like old cheese and butta. Monkey Man *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:23:52 From: "Timothy Moerke" Subject: Re: Question on British military What an eloquent response. I'm sure you'll be taken VERY seriously. Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:19:54 -0500 (EST) From: Albert Behnke Subject: BTR-T I was doing some reading and came across a Russian vehicle called the BTR-T. I don't remember seeing this discussed on the list, so I figured I'd bring it up. It is a supposedly new vehicle that is designed as an engineer assault vehicle. It was developed as a result of lessons learned in Chechnya (the need for more heavily armored APCs). A quick description of the BTR-T. It is a T-55 hull with the turret removed. The turret is replaced by a small one man turret (similar to the BMP-2, if I remember correctly) with a 30mm cannon. The crew was 3 plus 5 dismounts. I don't have the magazine with me, but can get it monday if anyone would like more specific details. I remember some more details about it, so if you have a specific question ask. I plan on putting it on my website eventually. Al http://www.gamepla.net/t2kbem/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:38:20 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: BTR-T I'm surprised they've even got the money to be doing any new design work, what with the fact that they can't even afford to feed and clothe their soldiers and maintain their current equipment. Michael Cook - ---Albert Behnke wrote: > > I was doing some reading and came across a Russian vehicle called the > BTR-T. I don't remember seeing this discussed on the list, so I figured > I'd bring it up. > > It is a supposedly new vehicle that is designed as an engineer assault > vehicle. It was developed as a result of lessons learned in Chechnya (the > need for more heavily armored APCs). > > A quick description of the BTR-T. It is a T-55 hull with the turret > removed. The turret is replaced by a small one man turret (similar to the > BMP-2, if I remember correctly) with a 30mm cannon. The crew was 3 plus 5 > dismounts. > > I don't have the magazine with me, but can get it monday if anyone would > like more specific details. > > I remember some more details about it, so if you have a specific question > ask. I plan on putting it on my website eventually. > > > Al > http://www.gamepla.net/t2kbem/ > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 04:30:58 +0000 From: Roger Stenning Subject: Re: Question on British military At 14:38 05/02/99 EST, you wrote: >Hey, what the fuck is going on here I cancled my subscription a long time ago >and today the shit pops back off. I want off you guys all smell like old >cheese and butta. Monkey Man Charmed, I'm sure. _IF_ you receive this message, then I would suggest the following course of action. 1. Direct further messages to be removed from this list to the address in the footer, which is placed there by the program which disseminates the mail to this list. 2. If that fails, contact the list owner. 3. In all communications, be polite. Insulting us as you have is firstly unwarranted, secondly rude and unacceptable, and thirdly, likely to cause on of us to forward you message to your ISP's post master for remedial action to be taken. And _I_ am the man likely to do that, too. You may consider this Warning One. Further action(s) will be taken without warning. _____________________________________________________________ Cheers, Roger ICQ UIN: 7742586 (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW; Ex-Corporal, Royal Military Police, British Territorial Army) MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It ALWAYS goes wrong. ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html _____________________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:30:06 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: BTR-T At 08:38 PM 2/5/99 -0800, Michael Cook wrote: > >I'm surprised they've even got the money to be doing any new design >work, what with the fact that they can't even afford to feed and >clothe their soldiers and maintain their current equipment. > Basically, it comes down to the fact tha the defense workers and design engineers aren't getting paid either, so they try to throw a few bones to them as well. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:23:08 -0800 From: Derek Klein Subject: Re: Question on British military At 04:30 AM 2/6/99 +0000, Roger wrote: >At 14:38 05/02/99 EST, Hruggek@aol.com wrote: >>Hey, what the fuck is going on here I cancled my subscription a long time ago >>and today the shit pops back off. I want off you guys all smell like old >>cheese and butta. Monkey Man > >Charmed, I'm sure. >You may consider this Warning One. Further action(s) will be taken without >warning. Oh, boy. This ought to be entertaining. DK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:31:16 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: BTR-T > Basically, it comes down to the fact tha the defense workers and design > engineers aren't getting paid either, so they try to throw a few bones to > them as well. > > Scott Orr Or they hope and pray for those foreign defense contracts like all the other companies there do... T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 01:34:25 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: BTR-T At 11:31 PM 2/5/99 -0700, Rogue09 wrote: >> Basically, it comes down to the fact tha the defense workers and design >> engineers aren't getting paid either, so they try to throw a few bones to >> them as well. > >Or they hope and pray for those foreign defense contracts like all the >other companies there do... > This is certainly true. However, they need to keep developing new stuff (and deploying it to show that it's worth the money) to be competitive in the arms market; of course, they've had problems selling their stuff since the Gulf War. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:45:38 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: BTR-T > > > This is certainly true. However, they need to keep developing new stuff > (and deploying it to show that it's worth the money) to be competitive in > the arms market; of course, they've had problems selling their stuff since > the Gulf War. > > Scott Orr Absolutly... This is why their firearms market has boomed since the early 90's, they've been diversifying to come up with better products to sell the world over. The problem is all the former Soviet Satellites are doing pretty much the same thing as they are... T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:42:33 +0200 From: Pietu Subject: Re: BTR-T Hou hou. How every intresting topic in this list change to something not so intresting topic? As I know this list topic is twilight 2000 rolegame, but real topics are something else. There have been some intresting mails which are not relative for TW2000. But, as example, are these writings really important or relative for TW2000 rolegaming? Pietu >> > >> This is certainly true. However, they need to keep developing new stuff >> (and deploying it to show that it's worth the money) to be competitive in >> the arms market; of course, they've had problems selling their stuff since >> the Gulf War. >> >> Scott Orr > > >Absolutly... This is why their firearms market has boomed since the >early 90's, they've been diversifying to come up with better products to >sell the world over. The problem is all the former Soviet Satellites >are doing pretty much the same thing as they are... *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:14:55 -0400 From: wardlow Subject: Re: Question on British military I guess the "Monkey Boy" moniker is in reference to his breeding and manners. Comes from one of the finest families, I'll warrant. Seeing as one cannot smell anything through a computer screen, the smell assailing his nostrtils ergo must be his own. Vlad Derek Klein wrote: > At 04:30 AM 2/6/99 +0000, Roger wrote: > > >At 14:38 05/02/99 EST, Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > >>Hey, what the fuck is going on here I cancled my subscription a long time ago > >>and today the shit pops back off. I want off you guys all smell like old > >>cheese and butta. Monkey Man > > > >Charmed, I'm sure. > > > > >You may consider this Warning One. Further action(s) will be taken without > >warning. > > Oh, boy. This ought to be entertaining. > > DK > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:13:49 PST From: "Brandon Cope" Subject: AA guns on tanks? I'm sure this has been brought up before (but, as I'm new to the list)... Several months ago a TV show on armored vehicles included shots from an arms show. One of the AFV's was a T-72 (?) with a lengthened turret, which had a forward firing, independantly elevating 20mm (?) cannon on each side of the rear of the turret. Each cannon was capable of high (AA) elevation, but I doubt if such a system would be accurate enough to engage a helicopter, much less a ground attack plane. Obviously, it could also be used against ground targets. Does anyone have any more information on this odd tank? If it wasn't a dead-end design, I doubt that many were built (or standard tanks refitted). a generous and sadistic GM, Brandon Cope ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:19:54 -0800 From: Chris Callahan Subject: Re: AA guns on tanks? Greetings Brandon: > arms show. One of the AFV's was a T-72 (?) with a lengthened turret, > which had a forward firing, independantly elevating 20mm (?) cannon on > each side of the rear of the turret. Each cannon was capable of high > (AA) elevation, The only thing I can come up with is a vehicle called the "2S6 Tunguska" (1996 Jane's Tank Recognition Guide). This is referred to as the ZSO-30-4 in the T2k v2.2 rulebook. It has twin 30mm cannon on each side of the turret (a total of 4 guns); however, each set of barrels is housed in a single cylindrical enclosure, giving the appearance of a single gun each side. The 2S6 sometims has twin SA-19 tubes mounted on each side of the turret, beneath the dual gun mounts. The elevation of the optional missile tubes appears to be controlled independently of the elevation of the guns. The 2S6M has/will have four missiles on each side of the turret. The Jane's book lists the 2S6 as being in service with Russia and India. Overall, the configuration is almost identical to that of the German Gepard-- tracked vehicle with gun(s) each side of turret, tracking radar dish mounted on front of turret, retractable surveillance radar at the rear of the turret. The hull bears little resemblance to that of the T-72; in fact the only visual similarity I can find between the two is that they have the same number of road wheels. - -C - -- #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# Chris Callahan: hector@gamepla.net Arclight: http://www.gamepla.net/arclight/ #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# "The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment." --Robert Maynard Hutchins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:21:22 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: BTR-T I was looking for information on this vehicle for my vehicle pages, actually, but couldn't find anything except for a picture. Albert Behnke wrote: > I was doing some reading and came across a Russian vehicle called the > BTR-T. I don't remember seeing this discussed on the list, so I figured > I'd bring it up. > > It is a supposedly new vehicle that is designed as an engineer assault > vehicle. It was developed as a result of lessons learned in Chechnya (the > need for more heavily armored APCs). > > A quick description of the BTR-T. It is a T-55 hull with the turret > removed. The turret is replaced by a small one man turret (similar to the > BMP-2, if I remember correctly) with a 30mm cannon. The crew was 3 plus 5 > dismounts. > > I don't have the magazine with me, but can get it monday if anyone would > like more specific details. > > I remember some more details about it, so if you have a specific question > ask. I plan on putting it on my website eventually. > > Al > http://www.gamepla.net/t2kbem/ > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:17:11 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: AA guns on tanks? At 08:13 AM 2/6/99 PST, Brandon Cope wrote: >I'm sure this has been brought up before (but, as I'm new to the >list)... > >Several months ago a TV show on armored vehicles included shots from an >arms show. One of the AFV's was a T-72 (?) with a lengthened turret, >which had a forward firing, independantly elevating 20mm (?) cannon on >each side of the rear of the turret. Each cannon was capable of high >(AA) elevation, but I doubt if such a system would be accurate enough to >engage a helicopter, much less a ground attack plane. Obviously, it >could also be used against ground targets. > >Does anyone have any more information on this odd tank? If it wasn't a >dead-end design, I doubt that many were built (or standard tanks >refitted). > Hmm...it could be those guns are intended at least partly for anti-personnel work, especially in a built-up area. They had no end of trouble with unsupported tanks getting ambushed by infantry when they invaded the city of Grozny during the war in Chechnya. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 01:48:09 -0800 From: Derek Klein Subject: Please Pardon This Test Reconfigured E-mail software. Just checking turnaround time. Carry on. DK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:34:25 -0500 From: "Loonz" Subject: [none] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01BE52E1.A2297DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I link every site that has "ANY" T2K content at all. and Tantalus is at = the bottom of every page. I update this page atleast weekly. Also note, the page may move in a month or two so watch this list and = webrpg for details. http://pages.prodigy.net/loonz857/t2k/t2k.htm Loonz - ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01BE52E1.A2297DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I link every site that has = "ANY" T2K=20 content at all. and Tantalus is at the bottom of every page. I = update this=20 page atleast weekly. Also note, the page may move in a = month or two=20 so watch this list and webrpg for details. http://pages.prodi= gy.net/loonz857/t2k/t2k.htm Loonz - ------=_NextPart_000_00FD_01BE52E1.A2297DE0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:38:35 -0500 From: "Loonz" Subject: [none] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01BE52E2.3772A7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A scenario should thought with Russia defending it's self. Everybody = hates them, and their too weak to instigate a conflict. Perhaps a conflagration due too a terrorist attack or some thing? Thought? Loonz - ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01BE52E2.3772A7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A scenario should thought with = Russia defending=20 it's self. Everybody hates them, and their too weak to = instigate a=20 conflict. Perhaps a conflagration due too a = terrorist=20 attack or some thing? Thought? Loonz - ------=_NextPart_000_010D_01BE52E2.3772A7A0-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #9 ***********************************