twilight2000-digest Monday, February 1 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 008 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: RMP (was re: European Theatre Comment) MERC:2000 - Any spares? Introduction and some ideas about Poland T2k in World War 2 Re: T2k in World War 2 Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Re: T2k in World War 2 Re: T2k in World War 2 Armor 21? Armor 21? Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Re: Armor 21? Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Re: Armor 21? Re: Armor 21? Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Re: T2k in World War 2 Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland testing New Website Re: Alternate Timelines Re: Alternate Timelines Re: European Theatre SF Activity Re: Alternate Timelines Re: Alternate Timelines ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:22:08 +0000 From: Roger Stenning Subject: Re: RMP (was re: European Theatre Comment) At 20:04 26/01/99 -0000, you wrote: >That is one of the best and most in depth explanations of RMP Duties I >have ever seen - it even beats the one they gave me in the careers >office (I nearly went RMP but was saved at the last minute....) ...pity... wee can use people who know how to type...... Who DID you sign up with then? >I always thought all they did was arrest "Innocent" soldiers in >Germany :-) ... that too... Never forget, though: There are TWO types of people in the British Army: The Innocent, and the Offender. Naturalicht, we only arrest the guilty... >Seriously - In the games I have played in (or watched or whatever) >most people ignore the importance of the support arms and concentrate >on the "glamour" of special forces type jobs. I have worked with RMP >people in Bosnia and they actually work quite hard keeping the roads >open and manning some remote Dets! (they still arrest innocent >squaddies though!) Aw... stop yer whingin'!! I knew of NOTHING more bloody boring, than waiting in a TP for an overdue convoy to trundle past, so that I could bung off the convoy serial to Zero... in Batco, of course, dammit! >Is there anyone else out there who can enlighten us more about the >support arms in theatre? Any of the Really Large Corps out there? >For any Brits out there - do you alter the character creation rules to >take into account the differences in the British Army (promotion, >training and terms of service mainly) or just play as is? If you look at the T2K 2.2 rules, pp 262, you'll find a conversion chart (that's surprisingly accurate!) to help you figure it all out... >:Hopefully, this has given you a new insight into those most freindly >and >:useful of people, the ROYAL MILITARY POLICE, otherwise known as: "The >:Redcaps". > >Amongst other things less printable.... :-) uh-huh: Calling an MP a 'Monkey' is a guarantee to a charge under S.69 A.A. 1955, to wit: "Behaviour likely to cause a breach of good army discipline". And you would, in all probability "fall down the stairs"... >:NOTE: RMP were amalgamated with the new Adjudant General's Corps >(AGC) in recent army reorganisations, but retain their unique seperate >identity. > >AGC = All Girls Corps or Ar**s Glued to Chairs Why d'you think we kept our bloody capbadges?! Later! _____________________________________________________________ Cheers, Roger ICQ UIN: 7742586 (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW; Ex-Corporal, Royal Military Police, British Territorial Army) MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It ALWAYS goes wrong. ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html _____________________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:57:29 +0800 From: Bradley White Subject: MERC:2000 - Any spares? Would anyone have any spare copies of this for sale???? I live in Western Australia and can't seem to locate a copy..... You can contact me direct at wings@power.net.au Thanks in advance, Brad. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:07:46 -0800 From: Michal Jaskolski Subject: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Hi everyone, I am new to this list. I've been reading posts for sime time but I haven't posted anything from me. Now it is right time to say sth. In Poland women are not allowed to serve in military forces. They can serve in special Police squads like antiterrorist squads. Only in case of war, and if they are doctors or nurses they cna be call for the army. Probably it will change now, when Poland will join NATO, but it won't happen soon. Another problem I'd like to write about is history given in T2K book. In April Poland will join NATO after seven years of trying to do it. Democratic changes which had started in Poland in 1989 went good. There was no possibility in sth 2nd Warsaw Pact or war with Germany. In Poland we hate Russia and Russians for their fifty-year-long occupation. In my campaign war started in former Soviet Union. After Chechen War, Russia started war with Ukraine. There is very big conflict between Russia and Ukraine on Sevastopol and Crimea. Russia also started war with Baltic States. NATO decided to help Baltic States and Ukraine. New partners of NATO like Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary along with British and French troops landed in Ukraine and started to fight. If you have any comments on it please write. Michal Jaskolski. "Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:15:22 -0800 From: Michal Jaskolski Subject: T2k in World War 2 Hi, It is me again. Few minutes ago I've sent a mail and forgot to ask for sth. Can you give me some tips how to run T2K during WW2? There is a sourcebook for this mentioned in T2K book but it is impossible to buy it in Poland. Can you give me some ideas about it. I have some adventures for Polish guerillas during WW2 but don't know the rules Michal Jaskolski "Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:38:57 -0800 From: Troy Hansen Subject: Re: T2k in World War 2 Michal Jaskolski wrote: > Hi, > It is me again. Few minutes ago I've sent a mail and forgot to ask for > sth. Can you give me some tips how to run T2K during WW2? There is a > sourcebook for this mentioned in T2K book but it is impossible to buy it > in Poland. Can you give me some ideas about it. I have some adventures > for Polish guerillas during WW2 but don't know the rules > Michal Jaskolski > "Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" Unfortunately none of the expansions listed in the back of the T2k rulebook were ever published(I believe the WW2 supplement was to be called "Twilight: The Iron Dream"). Running T2k in WW2 would be as simple as removing some skills (Computer, Tac Missle, Warhead, etc.), removing/renaming/editing certain careers(SEALs become UDTs), and equipment available would have to be from that era (MP-40s, T-34 tanks, no Kevlar, etc.) Troy. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:54:12 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland Hi, I think that is a cool idea, if you want to bring T2K a little bit closer to the real path of history. The only question I would have would be about the French...currently they seem a lot more interested in telling everyone else how bad they are for getting involved in too much fighting, and not to eager to send their own troops anywhere. -- S2000 - ---Michal Jaskolski wrote: > Another problem I'd like to write about is history given in T2K book. In > April Poland will join NATO after seven years of trying to do it. > Democratic changes which had started in Poland in 1989 went good. There > was no possibility in sth 2nd Warsaw Pact or war with Germany. In Poland > we hate Russia and Russians for their fifty-year-long occupation. > In my campaign war started in former Soviet Union. After Chechen War, > Russia started war with Ukraine. There is very big conflict between > Russia and Ukraine on Sevastopol and Crimea. Russia also started war > with Baltic States. NATO decided to help Baltic States and Ukraine. New > partners of NATO like Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary along with > British and French troops landed in Ukraine and started to fight. > If you have any comments on it please write. > Michal Jaskolski. > "Is it possible to succeed without any act of betrayal?" > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:56:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland - ---Michal Jaskolski wrote: > In my campaign war started in former Soviet Union. After Chechen War, > Russia started war with Ukraine. There is very big conflict between > Russia and Ukraine on Sevastopol and Crimea. Russia also started war > with Baltic States. NATO decided to help Baltic States and Ukraine. New > partners of NATO like Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary along with > British and French troops landed in Ukraine and started to fight. Yeah, I've had similar ideas about how the war could start if you continue the real world timeline to the present day. War starting in the Ukraine and the Baltic is similar to the campaigns in the Jane's computer games Navy Fighters and ATF NATO. Michael Cook _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:47 EST From: Grimace997@aol.com Subject: Re: T2k in World War 2 It is correct that there is not a sourcebook for the Twilight: Iron Dream. I think that the time period would hold immense amounts of adventures and intrigue. I've got the beginnings of an Iron Dream source info on my website. Not much now, only some vehicle info. Let me know if your interested and I'll email the URL to you. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:33:02 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: T2k in World War 2 Grimace997@aol.com wrote: > > It is correct that there is not a sourcebook for the Twilight: Iron Dream. I > think that the time period would hold immense amounts of adventures and > intrigue. > > I've got the beginnings of an Iron Dream source info on my website. Not much > now, only some vehicle info. Let me know if your interested and I'll email > the URL to you. As far as I know the company folded up before such a prodcut could be drafted and released...unless anyone knows differently... It would be a good time period for a RPG, as there really haven't been many forays into that era. T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:12:25 From: "Timothy Moerke" Subject: Armor 21? One of the alternate campaign backgrounds listed on the last page of T2k v2.2 is "Armor 21," which is set further into the 21st Century. There is a full-page advertisement for it in the back of the adventure "Rendezvous in Krakow." The ad lists the price as $20, the product number as #2050, and the release date as October 1995. While I have not physically seen this product, the fact that the ad gives the price, release date, and product number suggests that Armor 21 was at least developed if not released. Does anyone else have information about this? Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:15:47 From: "Timothy Moerke" Subject: Armor 21? One of the alternate campaign settings listed on the back page of T2K v2.2 is "Armor 21," which is set further into the 21st century. There is a full-page advertisement for this product in the back of the adventure "Rendezvous in Krakow." The ad lists the price as $20, the product number as #2050, and the release date as October 1995. While I have not physically seen this product, the fact that the ad gives the price, release date and product number suggests that Armor 21 was at least developed if not released. Does anyone have information about this? Tim *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:20:44 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland At 10:07 AM 1/27/99 -0800, Michal Jaskolski wrote: >Hi everyone, >I am new to this list. I've been reading posts for sime time but I >haven't posted anything from me. Now it is right time to say sth. >In Poland women are not allowed to serve in military forces. They can >serve in special Police squads like antiterrorist squads. Only in case >of war, and if they are doctors or nurses they cna be call for the army. >Probably it will change now, when Poland will join NATO, but it won't >happen soon. >Another problem I'd like to write about is history given in T2K book. In >April Poland will join NATO after seven years of trying to do it. >Democratic changes which had started in Poland in 1989 went good. There >was no possibility in sth 2nd Warsaw Pact or war with Germany. In Poland >we hate Russia and Russians for their fifty-year-long occupation. >In my campaign war started in former Soviet Union. After Chechen War, >Russia started war with Ukraine. There is very big conflict between >Russia and Ukraine on Sevastopol and Crimea. Russia also started war >with Baltic States. NATO decided to help Baltic States and Ukraine. New >partners of NATO like Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary along with >British and French troops landed in Ukraine and started to fight. >If you have any comments on it please write. I think that's about the most plausible scenario you could get (though I don't think any scenario will be _very_ plausible). Another good one is to have Russia invade the Baltic states--perhaps after being "provoked" by Lithuania (or all three of them) being invited to join NATO--the pretext would be poor treatment of the Russian minorities (though that's more likely for Estonia and Latvia than for Lithuania). In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united NATO--though that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:33:54 -0800 From: Chris Callahan Subject: Re: Armor 21? Greetings Tim: > full-page advertisement for it in the back of the adventure "Rendezvous in > Krakow." I believe 'Rendezvous' was the last T2k supplement published. GDW folded before either _Death on the Vistula_ or _Armour XXI_ could be printed. - -C - -- #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# Chris Callahan: hector@gamepla.net Arclight: http://www.gamepla.net/arclight/ #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# "The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment." --Robert Maynard Hutchins *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:50:00 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland > > In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united NATO--though > that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. > > Scott Orr > Key point...because in the T2K timeline, it is very important that there never was a 'united NATO'. Germany invaded Poland on her own, and only after the Russians and Czechs joined in did America, Britain, and Canada start fighting. A year later saw the Dutch and Danes join, and some like France, Spain, and Portugal never fought alongside NATO at all. On the far end of the spectrum, you have current NATO allies Italy and Greece actually fighting against NATO. The lack of any unity among the peace-time NATO partners was a key point of the designers, as well as one of the 'morals of the story' so to speak. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:01:28 -0800 (PST) From: Josh Baumgartner Subject: Re: Armor 21? Does anyone have any info on the current holder of the T2K license? (one which they are obviously not to eager to actively use). -- S2000 > GDW folded > before either _Death on the Vistula_ or _Armour XXI_ could be > printed. > > -C > -- > #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > Chris Callahan: hector@gamepla.net > Arclight: http://www.gamepla.net/arclight/ > #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > "The death of democracy is not likely to be an > assassination from ambush. It will be a slow > extinction from apathy, indifference, and > undernourishment." --Robert Maynard Hutchins > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:42:14 -0500 From: mykenator Subject: Re: Armor 21? Josh Baumgartner wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on the current holder of the T2K license? > (one which they are obviously not to eager to actively use). > -- S2000 Tantalus Games holds the licences and they're not going to do anything with them. One of the TW2K sites in the ring has a link to their site. Hope this helps, Mykenator *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:15:55 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland At 05:50 AM 1/28/99 -0800, Josh Baumgartner wrote: >> >> In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united >NATO--though >> that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. >> >> Scott Orr >> > >Key point...because in the T2K timeline, it is very important that >there never was a 'united NATO'. Germany invaded Poland on her own, >and only after the Russians and Czechs joined in did America, Britain, >and Canada start fighting. A year later saw the Dutch and Danes join, >and some like France, Spain, and Portugal never fought alongside NATO >at all. On the far end of the spectrum, you have current NATO allies >Italy and Greece actually fighting against NATO. > The lack of any unity among the peace-time NATO partners was a key >point of the designers, as well as one of the 'morals of the story' so >to speak. The discussion in question wasn't about the T2K timeline, but about a new one brought up to date to current events. And yes, not having a united NATO would make things tougher, but even with a part of NATO, Russia would be in deep, deep trouble. Their army isn't being paid and is barely eating (and a couple of years ago there were stories about a few soldiers dying of starvation), let alone being able to afford new weapons and maintenance. And their navy has basically ceased to exist as a force in being, except for the ballistic missile subs--so a breakout through the GIUK gap to interdict U.S. convoys would be out of the question. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:45:05 -0800 From: Hale Subject: Re: T2k in World War 2 Grimace997@aol.com wrote: > I've got the beginnings of an Iron Dream source info on my website. Not much > now, only some vehicle info. Let me know if your interested and I'll email > the URL to you. Please post your site. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:22:36 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Introduction and some ideas about Poland I remember back in 1984, there was a big discussion going on in the news whether NATO was still needed after existing for 35 years. The big question was that "does Europe still need the United States to help shield themselves from the USSR?" Another big thing was that many thought that Western Europe is strong enough to go it alone. Maybe when TW2K was first written in 1984, that was a consideration of a disunited NATO fighting WWIII. Just a little thought to add into the discussion. Chuck DE KA3WRW "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. - ---------- > Key point...because in the T2K timeline, it is very important that > there never was a 'united NATO'. Germany invaded Poland on her own, > and only after the Russians and Czechs joined in did America, Britain, > and Canada start fighting. A year later saw the Dutch and Danes join, > and some like France, Spain, and Portugal never fought alongside NATO > at all. On the far end of the spectrum, you have current NATO allies > Italy and Greece actually fighting against NATO. > The lack of any unity among the peace-time NATO partners was a key > point of the designers, as well as one of the 'morals of the story' so > to speak. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:23:37 -0800 From: Hale Subject: testing This is just a test. I went from 3-4 mails a day to none, so I'm just trying to see if my mail is working. No one needs to respond cause the list should send me my own mail. Sorry for any problem. TTFN Rdon Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:32:23 -0500 (EST) From: Albert Behnke Subject: New Website I have finally put my pbem on the web, please check it out and let me know what you think. www.gamepla.net/t2kbem/ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:41:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines > In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united NATO--though > that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. > Ok, so what if China starts the war. If the U.S. is embroiled in a full-scale conflict with China, that puts Russia on a more equal footing. Now, if China and Russia get friendly, through say, Russia allowing China to exploit the natural resources of Siberia in exchange for much currency and jobs for its unemployed... Russia pulls itself out of its economic situation, maybe modernizes it armed forces once again... Maybe Russia decides it would like some of the old Soviet territories back in the fold (Ukraine comes especially to mind, since it has the Black Sea Fleet and much other military materiel). However, these states are now atleast partially affiliated with NATO, you have the same kind of global conflict seen in Twilight: 2000, but consistent with the timeline to present. Comments?? Michael Cook firestorm_2020@yahoo.com ICQ: 30148614 _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:52:22 -0600 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines Interesting. And its worthy to note that Russia and China HAVE some important ties right now. Namely, after the Tianamen square incident, China decided to improve its military arms. They have increased their purchases of arms (tanks, IFVs, fighters, attack subs -- yes, attack subs) from Russia and plan to further increase it in the future. This ties Russia closely with China since Russia's imports of weapons, and its economy in general, have declined drastically since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact. On the other hand, China STILL has a rather poorly equipped army. Much of its equipment is old (700 of its 3000+ MBTs are T-85s from WWII) and it lacks the facilities / experience to maintain its newer equipment (SU-27s etc). Their other big weakness is their lack of ability to project power outside the boundaries of thier country; their current amphibious capability allows them to land only ONE division at a time. In a few years, and perhaps in an alternative future, China COULD instigate a regional conflict by invading Taiwan (which the Chinese insist is merely a "rebel province" of China). This info is out of this month's issue of COMMAND magazine. 'Highly recommend it to any and all interested in military history, military affairs, and / or wargaming. This month's issue also has some interesting info on the current state / MTOE of the Iraqi Army..... Remember also that many of China's enemies AND allies in the region have nuclear arms -- or are very close to it (North Korea, India, Pakistan). BKF - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Cook To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines > >> In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united >NATO--though >> that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. >> > >Ok, so what if China starts the war. If the U.S. is embroiled in a >full-scale conflict with China, that puts Russia on a more equal >footing. Now, if China and Russia get friendly, through say, Russia >allowing China to exploit the natural resources of Siberia in exchange >for much currency and jobs for its unemployed... Russia pulls itself >out of its economic situation, maybe modernizes it armed forces once >again... Maybe Russia decides it would like some of the old Soviet >territories back in the fold (Ukraine comes especially to mind, since >it has the Black Sea Fleet and much other military materiel). However, >these states are now atleast partially affiliated with NATO, you have >the same kind of global conflict seen in Twilight: 2000, but >consistent with the timeline to present. Comments?? > >Michael Cook >firestorm_2020@yahoo.com >ICQ: 30148614 > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:53:23 -0600 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: Re: European Theatre SF Activity Did my reply to this message ever get posted? I sent it from my hotmail account -- its been acting up, lately. BKF - -----Original Message----- From: bootboy@niagara.com To: Twilight2000 (E-mail) Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:57 AM Subject: European Theatre SF Activity >Does anyone have any theories or knowledge of the American Special Forces >(Green Berets) in the European Theatre of Operations? > >The information that I have is limited to: > >The 19th Special Forces Group is responsible for European operations. (The >information that I have is that the 19th is a National Guard unit??) > >I have information on the organization of a SFG (got to love Field >Manuals!) > >I believe that the Group was based in Bad Tolz, Germany. > >So with this, I'm trying to flesh out the SF involvement in the ETO. >Specifically, I would like opinions on where the Guerrilla Warfare >Operational Areas would be designated, the probable locations of the SFOB's >(Special Forces Operational Bases), current numbers of personnel left, >etc... > >Ray. > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:13:34 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines At 02:41 PM 2/1/99 -0800, Michael Cook wrote: > >> In any case, Russia would probably lose badly against a united >NATO--though >> that's all the more excuse for the nukes to start flying quickly. >> > >Ok, so what if China starts the war. If the U.S. is embroiled in a >full-scale conflict with China, that puts Russia on a more equal >footing. Now, if China and Russia get friendly, through say, Russia >allowing China to exploit the natural resources of Siberia in exchange >for much currency and jobs for its unemployed... Hmm...maybe. There are a lot of Russian in Siberia who hate the Chinese, but there are indeed a lot of others who want their money. It should be said though that this wouldn't work unless the Siberians went along with it--the central government, at the moment at least, is simply too weak to impose anything like that. >Russia pulls itself >out of its economic situation, maybe modernizes it armed forces once >again... Fixing an economy requires a lot more than getting some money for resources: in fact, historically, money from resource extraction traditionally has the _opposite_ effect. That is, it typically prevents the regular kind of economic growth, since no one needs money at the moment (this is known as the "Dutch disease"). Of course, Russia is probably too big to really produce this kind of effect (the value of resources per capita would be a lot less than Saudi Arabia), but if the resources aren't enough to cause serious economic problems, by the same token they probably aren't enough to buy a new army--though perhaps a small windfall could be used for this _if_ it were all devoted to that one goal. >Maybe Russia decides it would like some of the old Soviet >territories back in the fold (Ukraine comes especially to mind, since >it has the Black Sea Fleet and much other military materiel). Ukraine doesn't have the Black Sea Fleet; they did get a part of it (the smaller part), but the Russians got most of the major fleet units, and they still retain control over the base in Sevastopol (in the Crimea), even though it's on Ukranian territory. Of course, a lot of nationalist Russians (especially current Moscow Mayor Yurii Luzhkov, who has presidential ambitions--but the Communists are also _extremely_ nationalistic). The territory was transferred by Stalin to Ukraine, and many Russians insist the transfer was illegal. The territory is autonomous, with its own parliament, as the biggest group of inhabitants are firmly ethnic Russian (their identity as Russians seems much stronger than that of the Russian-speakers of the eastern Ukraine, whose families have probably lived where they live a lot longer than the one in Crimea). Things are further complicated by the ongoing return of the Crimean Tatars, who were deported by Stalin. >However, >these states are now atleast partially affiliated with NATO, you have >the same kind of global conflict seen in Twilight: 2000, but >consistent with the timeline to present. Comments?? > At the moment, they aren't really tied too strongly to NATO--they're members of the Partnership for Peace (which Russia is too, but Ukraine is more of an active participant), but that's not a defense alliance, just an institutionalized set of "confidence-building measures" (mostly joint training in rescue and disaster relief). The Baltics are trying to get into NATO, and Lithuania looks like a good bet in the next wave of expansion, if it takes place. Ukraine officially says they want to remain neutral, but occasionally they make noises about wanting at least to consider NATO membership, though the Western half (historically under Polish rule, and more Ukranian-speaking) would probably be more eager than the Eastern half (historically under Russian rule). Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:20:46 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Alternate Timelines At 06:52 PM 2/1/99 -0600, Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke wrote: > >On the other hand, China STILL has a rather poorly equipped army. Much of >its equipment is old (700 of its 3000+ MBTs are T-85s from WWII) and it >lacks the facilities / experience to maintain its newer equipment (SU-27s >etc). Their other big weakness is their lack of ability to project power >outside the boundaries of thier country; their current amphibious capability >allows them to land only ONE division at a time. > They keep wanting an aircraft carrier--though I'm not sure they can afford it, since buying and maintaining a carrier, an air arm, and a bunch of escorts is a HUGE investment (which is why the Indians have had such problems replacing their carriers). >In a few years, and perhaps in an alternative future, China COULD instigate >a regional conflict by invading Taiwan (which the Chinese insist is merely a >"rebel province" of China). > I think a flare-up over the Spratleys (a buch of islands in the South China sea cared about until someone figured out there's oil and gas there) is more likely--not only China but the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and maybe Vietnam (maybe even Thailand? Look it up in the library!) claim all or part of the islands, and there's already been some fighting, with I think China seizing some islands from the Philippines. The U.S. I think still has a defense agreement with the Philippines and Thailand. However, I think you're right that any conflict over Taiwan would be both more serious and more likely to involve the U.S. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1999 #8 ***********************************