twilight2000-digest Wednesday, December 16 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 059 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #58 Re: Canadian Small Arms Question Re: TW2000 website Please visit our hooch Re: TW2000 website Please visit our hooch Re: TW2000 website New ATGMs Re: TW2000 website SV: TW2000 website new link Re: new link OICW T-72 family/Armour values Re: OICW Archives? Merc 2000 Price list ATVs Re: ATVs Re: ATVs Re: Let´s_make_a_adventure favorite game session quotes ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:32:47 -0800 From: Ragnarok Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #58 twilight2000-digest wrote: > The USMC started arriving sometime between the 14th and 17th. The 2 tank > battalions had 100 M60A1s with ERA and no thermal imagers. This is incorrect - USMC had two companies (roughly) on the border on or about the 7th. While it may be debatable whether they would have been effective against whole divisions of any quality (this despite my pride), the moral to this story is 'don't believe everything you read'. > The Uk deployed the 7th Armoured Brigade from September onwards. France > also in September. Egypt sent its first division end Sept/early Oct. > > Plenty of gaps for Iraq to invade Saudi Arabia. They would have ran out of > steam due to supply problems, but not before over running most of the ports > and air fields used in the coalition build up. Iraq invaded Kuwait 1 am on > the 2nd August. 48 hours later they were on the border with Saudi Arabia (3 > Republician Guard divisions: 2 Armoured, 1 Mech.) Within 4 days of the > invasion 8 divisions were massed on the border. US Central Command started > deploying on the 6th August. While your timetable is true (enough), you refer to forward elements - the main bodies (approx. 2/3 total unit strength) lagged about 18 - 24 hours later. In addition, while present and accounted for, they were not in any shape to prosecute an offensive into Saudi at this point, as their supplies had already fallen behind about 10-12 hours by my understanding, and another 6-12 hours would be required for the whole rather uncoordinated mess to refuel, regroup and proceed. So call it another day pessimistically for them to be ready and able to continue into Saudi - this would have been the 7th, BTW. By the time this happened, the aforementioned Marine "display of farce" had landed and begun moving up, and the Saudis were as ready as they could ever be to face the Iraqis. The Saudis would have bought at least 24 - 72 hours, during which time, as you note, we had more goodies in the region. These were at the time believed the reasons Iraq did not continue on into Saudi. While they could have torn the Marine contingent to shreds, they would have been fataly delayed regarding the overall strategic picture. Hussein surmised properly that he stood a better chance in his own back yard with all his underground supply routs and bunkers and whatnot. Also, remember that it had been infered that the US would not become involved if he attacked Kuwait. Hussein was somewhat surprised that the US was becoming involved with ground troops at all, much less as fast as we did. While the end result of a continued attack into Saudi can be argued, and would certainly have been an ordeal for us, Hussein had enough reasonable doubt that he delayed beyond the point of no return. While our media portrayed him as a mad-man, he was most certainly not (not yet, anyway) crazy. - -Jeremy M. Semper Fidelis USMC Intel (most boring job on the planet for us enlisted types). > I believe the US would have used tactical nuclear weapons on the invading > Iraqi's. Absolutely, once we began an adversarial condition with the Iraqis. We have standing poilicy to let fly against any threat to our oil supply. Have for decades. > > > Source: The Naval Institute guide to Naval Weapons Systems 1997-98 > The Naval Institute guide to Ships & Aircraft of the US Fleet, 15th > ed. > Osprey Elite Series: Armies of the Gulf War > > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:06:39 -0500 From: "Gary Gore" Subject: Re: Canadian Small Arms Question - -----Original Message----- From: twilight2000-digest To: twilight2000-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Date: December 8, 1998 9:55 AM Subject: twilight2000-digest V1998 #58 >Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:47:16 -0500 >From: USER >Subject: RE: Small Arms Questions > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1D39.8FC8DE80 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Canadian arms for soldiers: > >Service Rifle 5.56mm C7 - essentially the M16A2 with a scope. The M16A3 is closer to the C7. But the M16A2 will do in a pinch. > >Light Machine Gun 5.56mm C9 - comparable to the M249, with a scope. > >Short Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Light) (SRAAW(L)) M72-C7 - this is the = >Canadian Forces designation for the U.S. M72 LAW. > >Short Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Heavy) (SRAAW(H)) - this weapon is = >essentially the exact duplicate of the Carl Gustav. Up here in Canada = >it's known as the Carl G by the soldiers. > >General Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG) 7.62mm C6 - the C6 is a copy of the = >M60. > The C6 is a copy of FN Mag 58, not an M60. The M240G is basically the FN Mag 58/ C6 in US ground service. >The C79 Optical Sight is a scope that is used on the C7, C8 (I haven't = >been able to accurately find information on the C8; I have been told = >that it is either a C7 with an integral under barrel grenade launcher, = >like the U.S. M203, or a C7 with a scope), and C9. The C7/C8 has the = >carrying handle removed to accommodate the scope. The optical sight is = >adjustable for ranges from 200 to 800 metres in 100 metre increments. > The C79 is an ELCAN optical scope ( http://www.elcan.com ) The C8 is the M16A2 Carbine in US service. Full auto and collapsing stock. I haven't seen any with the scope. >Grenade, Fragmentation, High Explosive M67 - this is Canada's frag = >grenade. It is reported to be lethal in an 18 metre radius and have a = >danger radius of 300 metres. I don't think I'll attempt to verify that = >report 8^) > It is and does. But most grenades have a danger radius of 300 m. Which just means there is a chance you might be hit with a fragment. - ------------------ Gary. ggore@mail.transdata.ca http://www.transdata.ca/~ggore/morrow.htm *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:17:28 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: TW2000 website There is also a questionaire in place at this site > which allows players to submit their opinion concerning rules, etc. I would > like to know what to do about clearing this site with Tantalus. > -Best, > Chris Webb > And what is your webpage address? My bookmarks are in such a sorry state I couldn't find it if my life depended on it... T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:06:12 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Please visit our hooch We're hunkered down in the command bunker at Firebase Tango Whiskey 2000. Do pay a visit. www.tekstorm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:18:02 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Re: TW2000 website We're hunkered down in the command bunker at Firebase Tango Whiskey 2000. Do pay a visit. www.tekstorm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 01:34:52 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Please visit our hooch We're hunkered down in the command bunker at Firebase Tango Whiskey 2000. Do pay a visit. www.tekstorm.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:54:36 -0500 From: "Loonz" Subject: Re: TW2000 website I would'nt clear anything with them. Just follow their rules and don't infringe. I'd be afraid that if we pestered them they'd object too some of this stuff out here. - -----Original Message----- From: Rogue09 To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, December 08, 1998 12:21 PM Subject: Re: TW2000 website >There is also a questionaire in place at this site >> which allows players to submit their opinion concerning rules, etc. I would >> like to know what to do about clearing this site with Tantalus. >> -Best, >> Chris Webb >> > > >And what is your webpage address? My bookmarks are in such a sorry >state I couldn't find it if my life depended on it... > >T.R. >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:59:54 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: New ATGMs New ATGMs Rld Ranges Damage Penetration Guidance China Red Arrow 8 2 100-3000 C:10, B:10 130C SACLOS 1988 Red Arrow 8A 2 100-3000 C:10, B:10 155C/200C SACLOS 1994 Red Arrow 8E 2 100-4000 C:10, B:10 155C/200C SACLOS 1998 International HOT 2 75-4000 C:12, B:12 155C SACLOS 1977 HOT-2 2 75-4000 C:12, B:12 190C SACLOS 1986 HOT-2T 2 75-4000 C:12, B:12 190C/230C SACLOS 1993 HOT-3 2 75-4000 C:12, B:12 190C/230C SACLOS-Coded France and Germany only, 1993 Milan 3 50-2000 C:12, B:12 145C SACLOS 1974 Milan 2 3 50-2000 C:12, B:12 180C SACLOS 1986 Milan 2T 3 50-2000 C:12, B:12 180C/220C SACLOS 1993 Milan 3 3 50-2000 C:12, B:12 180C/220C SACLOS-coded France and Germany only, 1994 Msl weight 12 kg, 16 kg firing post, TI range 4000/2000 TRIGAT MR 3 2400 C:12, B:12 200/240C LBR Msl weight <17 kg, 1200 m/5 secs TRIGAT LR 2 500-5000 C:12, B:12 200C/240C IIR 6000m from helicopters The TRIGAT MR may enter service in 2000. The TRIGAT LR will probably be cancelled. TRIGAT LR is fire and forget. Russia AT-3a Sagger (9M14) 2 500-3000 C:6, B:4 80C Manual 550 metres/5 secs, 1961 11 kg missile AT-3b (9M14M) 2 300-3000 C:6, B:4 90C Manual 1969 on AT-3c (9M14P1) 2 300-3000 C:6, B:4 100C SACLOS 1974 AT-3d (9M14-2) 2 300-3000 C:6, B:4 120C/160C SACLOS 1992, 650 m/5 sec AT-4a Spigot (9M111) 3 75-2000 C:6, B:4 90C SACLOS 1973 AT-4b (9M111-2) 3 75-2500 C:6, B:4 100C SACLOS 1985 AT-4c (9M111M) 3 75-2500 C:6, B:4 140C/180C SACLOS 1992 13 kg missile, launcher 22 kg, 900 m/5 sec AT-5a Spandrel (9M113) 75-4000 C:12, B:12 120C SACLOS 1977 9 kg TI to 3500 m AT-5b (9M113M) 75-4000 C:12, B:12 140C/180C SACLOS 1992 26 kg missile, 23 kg launcher, 13 kg thermal imaging sight, $115000 launcher, $13000 missile AT-6a Spiral (9M114) 500-5000 C:12, B:12 120C SACLOS 1973, Mi-24 Hind helo AT-6b Spiral 500-5000 FAE (see below) SACLOS ? AT-6c Spiral (9M114M) 500-6000 C:12, B:12 120C SACLOS 1989 AT-7 Saxhorn (9M115) 40-1000 C:6, B:4 90C SACLOS 1979 AT-8 Songster (9M112) 1000-4000 C:12, B:12 115C SACLOS 1978 Fired from 125mm guns of T-64B & T-80B AT-9 (9M114M1) 500-6000 C:12, B:12 120C/160C SACLOS Was to be on Mi-28 Helo AT-9 (9M114M2) 500-7000 C:12, B:12 140C/180C SACLOS Was to be on Mi-28 Helo AT-10 Stabber (9M117) 100-4000 C:12, B:12 110C LBR 1985 AT-10 Stabber (9M117M) 100-4000 C:12, B:12 120C/160C LBR ? AT-11a Sniper (9M119) 100-4000 C:12, B;12 140C/180C LBR 1987 Fired from 125mm guns of the T-72B, T-72S. 28 kg, $45,000 AT-11b Sniper (9M119M) 100-5000 C:12, B:12 150C/190C LBR 1992 Fired from 125mm guns of the T-80U, T-90 AT-12 Shesna (9M117) 100-4000 C:12, B:12 110C LBR 1987 Fired from 115mm guns of T-62M1 AT-13 Saxhorn B (9M131)2 80-1500 C:12, B:12 150C/170C SACLOS 1990 Launcher $70,000 each missile $13,000. Improved AT-7 AT-13 Saxhorn B (9M131)2 80-1500 FAE (see below) SACLOS ? AT-14 Kornet 100-5000 C:12, B:12 200C/240C LBR 1200 metres/5 secs AT-14 Kornet 100-5000 FAE (see below) 27 kg missile, 19 kg launcher, TI range 3500m. To replace AT-5 series. AT-15 Khrizantema (9M123-2) 300-5500 C:12, B:12 200C/240C LBR/MMW AT-15 Khrizantema (9M123-F2) 300-5500 FAE (see below) LBR/MMW To replace MTLB/AT-6 & BRDM-2/AT-5 tank destroyers. Very few produced in Twilight:2000, they would be in divisional Anti-tank Battalions. Two missiles can be guided at once, one using automatic MMW, the second guided by the gunner using LBR guidance. Will be mounted on a BMP-3 chassis. AT-16 (9M120) 350-8000 C:12, B;12 150C/190C LBR Was to have armed the Ka-50 helo AT-16 (9M120F1) 350-8000 FAE (see below) LBR Was to have armed the Ka-50 helo Sweden BILL 2 150-2200 C:8, B:8 120C SACLOS-coded Top attack missile. 20 kg missile, 18 kg post, 9kg thermal imager BILL 2 2 150-2200 C:8, B:8 2 x 120C SACLOS-coded 1999, 900 m/5 secs Top attack missile. 18 kg missile, 11kg tripod, 9kg TI UK Swingfire 2 150-4000 C:12, B:12 100C Manual Swinfire (imp) 2 150-4000 C:12, B:12 170C SACLOS 1992 on USA Dragon 2 65-1000 C:12, B:12 120C Manual 430m / 5 secs Dragon II 2 65-1000 C:12, B:12 135C Manual 430m / 5 secs 15 kg w day sight, 22 kg with night sight FOG-M 2 10000 C:12, B:12 160C FO Javelin 2 2200 C;6, B:4 190C/230C IIR Replaces Tank Breaker. Selectable top attack. 12 kg missile, 4 kg sight, 6 kg command unit. Supposedly costs $100,000 each missile! LOSAT-KEM ? 900-4570 See below LBR 8500 m / 5 secs! TOW 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 180C SACLOS ITOW 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 180C SACLOS TOW 2 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 180C SACLOS-coded TOW 2A 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 180C/220C SACLOS-coded TOW 2B 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 2 x 120C SACLOS-coded Top attack missile FOTT 2 65-3750 C:12, B:12 180C IIR Estimated Ratings Hellfire A 500-8000 C:12, B:12 220C SALH AH-64 Apache laser has a range of 5000 metres only. Hellfire B 500-10000 C:12, B:12 220C SALH Hellfire II 500-9000 C:12, B:12 240C/280C SALH Hellfire Longbow 500-8000 C:12, B:12 240C/280C MMW Fire & Forget missile Early TOWs 18.5 kg, later models 23 kg Ranges given as minimum (automatic no hits inside this range) to maximum. FAE stands for Fuel Air Explosive. Until more known treat as 122mm HE against targets in open. Treat as 152mm HE if targets inside buildings. If two penetration values are given the first is for normal armour, the second for ERA. All Russian and Chinese ATGM have a 25% dud rate, others get 5%. LOSAT-KEM uses a kinetic penetrater. From 0-1200 metres: 140, 1201-2400 m: 130, 2401-3600 m: 120, 3601 m+: 100 Manual missiles are DIFFICULT. SACLOS (Semi-auto commmand Line of Sight) are AVERAGE to use. LBR is laser beam rider. They can not be designated from other sources, as the name suggests they ride the launchers guidance beam with a rear mounted seeker. SALH is semi-active laser homing. This can designated by another party. The Apache can fire a Hellfire and have a ground team or other helicopter designate. All laser guided bombs use this type of guidance. IIR is Imaging Infra-red a more robust guidance than IR. It is fire and forget. MMW is Milli-Metre Wave radar. +1 level difficulty IR decoys (Chinese dazzlers[used by Iraq in 1991], Russia, UK, USA, Israel, etc) Coded, LBR and Manual guided not effected by IR decoys. IR decoys take the form of flares or flashing IR beacons. Peter Grining *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:46:24 -0500 (EST) From: MIDNIGHTGUARD@webtv.net (Rob Lebowsky) Subject: Re: TW2000 website - --WebTV-Mail-1900027246-1213 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit I'm not sure if you we're addressing me specifically (My name is Rob), but I can answer your question. If you make a T2K website all Tantalus wants is to be informed and to have their disclaimer posted somewhere on the site. If you have any other questions, I have a link to Tantalus on the Main Page of my website (at the very bottom, under the disclaimer). Hope this helps... Rob http://www.angelfire.com/ms/bloodtalon/index.html - --WebTV-Mail-1900027246-1213 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Received: from mailsorter-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net (209.240.198.91) by postoffice-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:30:24 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: from phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM (Phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM [206.66.87.5]) by mailsorter-101.iap.bryant.webtv.net (8.8.8/ms.graham.14Aug97) with ESMTP id GAA05052; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA13771; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:29:20 -0500 Received: by lists.MPGN.COM (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:28:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13736 for twilight2000-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:28:00 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM: majordom set sender to owner-twilight2000@lists.MPGN.COM using -f Received: from Mithril.MPGN.COM (Mithril.MPGN.COM [206.66.87.8]) by phaser.Showcase.MPGN.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13700 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:27:42 -0500 Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by Mithril.MPGN.COM (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA20146 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:27:25 -0500 Received: from [209.86.186.118] (user-38ldejm.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.186.118]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26617 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:27:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: negril@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:46:07 -0500 To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: TW2000 website Sender: owner-twilight2000@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM Reply-To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Dear Rob, I have contacted Marc at heartland publishing and discussed what might be involved in liscensing the TW2000 title for publishing rights. I am in the beginning stages of a business plan. This is still very loose. My question to you is in regards to a website that I have established. It basically tells visitors that we are looking into the possibility of liscensing TW2000. There is also a questionaire in place at this site which allows players to submit their opinion concerning rules, etc. I would like to know what to do about clearing this site with Tantalus. -Best, Chris Webb *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. - --WebTV-Mail-1900027246-1213-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:55:10 +0100 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mathias_K=F6ppen?=" Subject: SV: TW2000 website Got some problem with NN, so I couldn't express my opinion 'bout v3 but I must say it sounds like a wonderful idea... Mathias Köppen >We're hunkered down in the command bunker at Firebase Tango Whiskey 2000. >Do pay a visit. > > > www.tekstorm.com > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 18:43:22 -0400 From: wardlow Subject: new link Here's a very useful link http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ Vlad *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 15:28:02 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: new link yup, i'm usin that page for info on vehicles... wardlow wrote: > Here's a very useful link http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ > > Vlad > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:21:05 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: OICW Here's the revised stats for the new US OICW (Objective Individual Crewed Weapon) rated for v2.2. --Recoil-- Weapon ROF Dam Pen Blk SS Brst Rng OICW 5.56mm 2 3 1-Nil 5 2 4 60/75 Ball ammo 2 1-1-Nil AP ammo 3 Nil Fragible ammo Both new ammo types become available for any 5.56mm N weapon from 1998/99. Type ROF Mag Rng IFR Rnd Damage Pen OICW 20mm SA 6 150 - HE C:1, B:4 Nil or 1 20mm Performance (Replaces Fagmantation Attack Table) Burst Radius Range Pen (0-300 metres/301+ metres Rng) Primary 4 m 2/1 Secondary 8 m 1/Nil The 20mm can be set to explode as an airburst (No benefit from cover), on contact to a surface (Pen: Nil) or delay (Pen: 1). It takes 5.5 seconds to reach 1000 metres (one turn). At short medium and long ranges the 20mm arrives in the same turn as firing, at extreme range the next turn. The 20mm can only be used as an airburst if the target can be clearly lased. (No smoke). + & - buttons on the rifle can adjust the airburst. So the airburst can occur over a trenchline, past a building corner or over a wall. The airburst is set by the amount of revolutions the 20mm does. Costs $7000, weighs 6.5 kg, 20mm grenade rounds cost $25 each. Available for issue to special forces from 2005. A few trial models from 1998. The sight can function as an uncooled thermal imager or as 'red dot' close combat sight. The TI has a range of 1200 metres and doesn't require nitrogen cooling bottles. The combat sight allows 2 aimed shots in 5 seconds. It is not a scope so the 60 metre range is used. The sight also has a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer and autotracker. A bonus of +4 is added to the to hit numbers at all ranges. This is in addition to the normal scope bonus. The autotracker enables 1 level of target movement difficulty to be ignored. New type of sight: The x1.5 sight on the Australian Army F88 (Steyr AUG) was found to take 2 seconds from target acquistion to round fired. Normal iron sights took 5 seconds (Firer had to align the front sight with the back sight with the target). The F88 sight was put the cross hairs on the target and fire. Because is a low magnification it can be used with both eyes opened. The red dot mentioned for the OICW above is of the same type, the Steyr AUG, and any other x1.5 sight all allow 2 aimed shots per 5 second phase. The M4/M16 can be fitted with collamiter (sp) sight which allows the same. Peter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 17:23:23 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: T-72 family/Armour values Here's an attempt to sort out the different fits for the T-72 family. From the 1960s till the 1980s the Soviets used 'Combination K' armour. This was steel/ceramic/steel. It was no way as efficent as Chobham types, but offered a small increase in HEAT protection. The 3 basic levels of protection only varied over the hull and turret fronts. Heres the thickness in mm. The figures are effectiveness against AP/HEAT TF HF T-72 410/500 410/450 T-72A 500/560 420/490 T-72B 520/950 530/900 The ratings for the T-72B probably include 2nd gen ERA which is around 300mm protection. T2K rates Chobham/Composite types as twice as effective as steel armour against HEAT type rounds. A lot of other games also have this. It seems to come from reports that the original M1 with the 105mm had 350/700mm (TF: 70-Cp in T2K). The design of the M1 armour came from reports from the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The AT-3 Sagger and RPG-7 were used in large numbers. First reports had them destroying large numbers of Israeli tanks. In fact only 10% of losses were to AT-3/RPG-7, most of the rest were from tank cannon. The US Army emphasised protection against HEAT warheads anyway, because the Soviets were introducing large numbers of these in Europe at the time. The West German Army went with the Leopard II. The question is does the Leo II have Chobham or composite armours? This is the crux of armour types: Ceramic, Composite, Chobham, etc are all steel on the outside, then a exotic mix, then steel again. The M1 series had Aluminum Oxide, AO85 in the M1, the IMPM1 and M1A1 has AO99. Contray to popular belief the M1A1HA/M1A2 does not have a depleted uranimum mesh, it replaces the AO with Uranimum Oxide, UO87 with the M1A1HA and UO99 on the M1A2. The Leopard II has more steel armour and less composites. The AP protection is on par with the IMPM1/M1A1. Russian tanks used a glass fibre mix (Combination-K), then Boron Carbide. Turret Front (TF) Hull Front (HF) M1 70-Cp 90/140 IMPM1 90/140 90/140 M1A1 90/140 90/140 M1A1HA 116/200 90/140 M1A2 150/270 90/140 Leopard II 90/150 ? Leo 2(I) KWS 2 120-Cp ? Challenger I 120/160 100/160 Challenger II 140-Cp ? HS: 40-Cp Leclerc 144/208 ? TS: 66/110 Some of these are best guesses. The actual calculations can be found at under too many headers to remember. I'm not saying the above list of the tankers.net stuff is entirely accurate, but it would be better than the 1990-93 stuff that GDW used. Anyway, back to the T-72 stuff for T2K: TF HF T-72 82/100 82/90 T-72A 100/112 84/98 T-72B 104/130 106/120 1st generation ERA adds 80 to HEAT values. 2nd Gen ERA adds 60 to AP and HEAT. Soviet designation Obiekt (Object/Protype) 172 was the original T-72 introduced in 1973, it has a RF+0. The T-72M was built by Poland and Czechoslovakia and had a laser rangefinder RF+1, called T-72G when exported to the Middle East. These use the T-72 armour line. Also export T-72 with RF+0. Obiekt 174 (this is where the T-74 confusion came from) is the T-72A "Dolly Parton" (thickened turret armour, use your imagination) in 1978 and the export T-72M1 in 1982. Both use the T-72A armour and have the T2K rangefinder: RF+2. Obiekt 174M is the T-72B "Super Dolly Parton" from 1985 and the export T-72M1M (also called the T-72M2), which doesn't fire cannon launched ATGM. The T-72S is an export version which can fire the AT-11. The T-72BM has 2nd Generation ERA. The T-72B introduced a laser detection system. The T-90 was to be called the T-72BU, but due to the poor performance of the T-72 in Iraqi hands in 1991 was renamed. It has RF+3, a thermal imager, Shtora (ATGM decoy system), but the same T-72B armour with 2nd Gen ERA. It has entered service in the Russian Army around 1993, with 150-300 produced. Its cheaper than the T-80UM (most modern MBT in Russian service), but not as well liked. Yugoslavia had the M-84 (1984 on) which was the T-72M, and the M-84A (late 80s) which was the T-72M1. As can be seen the T-72B with 2nd gen ERA has TF: 164/190, HF: 166/18, which isn't too bad. However ERA doesn't cover all the TF and HF. 2nd Gen ERA only covers 60% or so, and the tiles are bigger. Each 2nd Gen ERA tile that detonates exposes more than a 1st gen tile. T2K 2nd Gen ERA coverage (1D10): 1st Hit: 1-6 hits ERA (add 60 to AV), 7-0 hits normal armour (use above AV). 2nd Hit: 1-3 hits ERA, 4-0 hits normal armour 3rd Hit: 1 hits ERA, 9-0 normal armour 4th Hit: ERA all detonated, all hits normal armour. Israel faced Syrian export T-72 and T-72Ms in Lebanon, 1982. The Coalition faced Iraqi T-72, T-72M and T-72M1s during Desert Storm. The Shtora system mentioned earlier was introduced around 1988. It consists of infra-red illuminators that confuse ATGM guidance systems in the front 180 degrees(one level harder to guide in T2K), except for coded types (TOW-2, HOT-3, Milan-3 and a few others). With laser detecters the turret mounted grenade launchers fire a smoke grenade that can block thermal imagers or laser designaters. This system operates manually or automatically. In T2K assume each T-72 can fire 2 times, each with 4 grenades. They land 50 metres in front of the tank at +-20 & 60 degrees (centreline of turret is 0 degrees) and build up as per the smoke rules (haven't tried this yet in T2K. I notice the rules don't cover vehicle launched smoke grenades at all. Anyone with anything on this?). The T-72B has a more powerful 840 hp engine than the standard 740 hp heavier. The T-90 has a 1000 hp engine. The T-72/80/90 needs the T2K movement and fuel consumption figures changed to reflect the different weights and engines. Also the T-80 uses a gas turbine which uses a lot of fuel. For now use the T-80 movement for the T-90. Peter *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:55:13 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: OICW Peter Grining wrote: > > Here's the revised stats for the new US OICW (Objective Individual Crewed > Weapon) rated for v2.2. > > --Recoil-- > Weapon ROF Dam Pen Blk SS Brst Rng > OICW 5.56mm 2 3 1-Nil 5 2 4 60/75 I dunno...I would be hesitant to give the 223 rifle on this weapon the same range as most 308 Winchester caliber sniper rifles in the game...that's just my opinion... T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 03:35:41 -0800 From: Derek Klein Subject: Archives? Does this mailing list have an archive? I found a link for one a while back, but it seems to be dead and/or inaccessible. Thanks in advance. DK *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:02:58 -0700 From: Kurt Stogrin Subject: Merc 2000 Price list Hello Everyone Does anyone out there have a more complete Merc 2000 price list? I'm trying to make a new price list for Merc 2000 with all the vehicles and weapons from the Twilight Source books and Challenge Magazines included. I have found that the prices seem a little out of whack. For example The Merc 2000 price list says that a BRDM-1 costs $200 000 and a BMP-3 costs $150 000. It seems to me that there are numerous mistakes in the list what I'm looking for is other peoples price lists and any Web sites that list real world costs. I need all and any info on vehicles and heavy weapons purchase prices.. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 00:22:54 -0800 From: Hale Subject: ATVs More than likely this has already been covered and I missed it but I'm going to bring it up anyway. Has anyone put together V2.2 stats for Allterrain/Recreational/Utilitrian vehicles? I know that there is a motorcycle in the book but there are so many different vehicles out there that to just have one, of one type in the game, sucks. I haven't seen snowmobiles, quads, snowcats, motorhomes, or any heavy equipment. TTFN Ron Hale *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 01:46:38 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: ATVs If anyone does have this info, I would happily post it on my vehicle pages. I added several civilian cars, but that was it. Hale wrote: > More than likely this has already been covered and I missed it but I'm > going to bring it up anyway. > > Has anyone put together V2.2 stats for > Allterrain/Recreational/Utilitrian vehicles? I know that there is a > motorcycle in the book but there are so many different vehicles out > there that to just have one, of one type in the game, sucks. > I haven't seen snowmobiles, quads, snowcats, motorhomes, or any heavy > equipment. > TTFN > Ron Hale > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:57:27 +1100 From: Damian Robinson Subject: Re: ATVs :-{) I just put some 4WD stats on my web page, like this week. share and enjoy! http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dreamworld/4808/ And dont forget to sign the guest book! Cheers Damian *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:30:30 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: Let´s_make_a_adventure Ok, how about this: There's an old nineteenth-century paddle steamer that pre-war was used as a museum. Someone is getting the boat ready to go up/down river to be used as a floating artillery platform in an attack on some fortified city. Michael Cook - ---Peter Himberg wrote: > > Well. I would like to do a scenario. With my experience, the best way to do very twisted scenario is do with it my friend. > > So, why we cannot use that technic in this Mailing List too? > > First, someone starts the scenario making with somekind basic plot or theme (ex. One man wants to hire somebody to kill his boss; or theme Aliens) and then someone of you in the list add something in this basic-plot ( ex. Boss is really a nice guy, but patron is a madman.) and so on. Get the Idea? If this thing works, we can put these scenarions in Net for read to everyone, and that way keep TW:2000 living in future. > > Sounds good? > Let me know. > > Pietu > Helsinki, > Finland > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 06:35:01 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Cook Subject: favorite game session quotes Some of the best parts of running a game session, at least for me, are the things the players say when confronted with a situation, or even just role-playing amongst themselves. Sometimes it reads just like a movie script and while a lot of these lines lose their shine after the mission's over, some live on to be recalled during later game sessions. For instance, one time a group of characters in one of my campaigns were setting up camp when they noted another camp fire not to far away. One of them was sent to investigate and returned to report that there were three men around the fire but when prompted for more detailed information he replied "I don't know, I didn't go closer than thirty yards." At that, another of the characters responded "Thirty yards? That's not scouting them out, that's taking a glance!" Does anyone else have any great quotes from their campaigns that they'd like to share? Michael Cook _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #59 ************************************