twilight2000-digest Tuesday, December 8 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 058 The following topics are covered in this digest: RE: Small Arms Questions Iraq invades Saudi Arabia Iraq v USA 91 Re: Iraq invades Saudi Arabia Shameless Plug for New Stuff on Site Re: Setting Problems Re: Setting Problems Re: Setting Problems Re: Setting Problems =?iso-8859-1?Q?Let=B4s_make_a_adventure?= RE: Setting Problems Re: Setting Problems Order of battle website Order of battle website Nuke effect and EMP Re: Setting Problems Misc- LETA Website, Check it out. TW2000 website Russian Individual weapons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:47:16 -0500 From: USER Subject: RE: Small Arms Questions - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1D39.8FC8DE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Canadian arms for soldiers: Service Rifle 5.56mm C7 - essentially the M16A2 with a scope. Light Machine Gun 5.56mm C9 - comparable to the M249, with a scope. Short Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Light) (SRAAW(L)) M72-C7 - this is the = Canadian Forces designation for the U.S. M72 LAW. Short Range Anti-Armour Weapon (Heavy) (SRAAW(H)) - this weapon is = essentially the exact duplicate of the Carl Gustav. Up here in Canada = it's known as the Carl G by the soldiers. General Purpose Machine Gun (GPMG) 7.62mm C6 - the C6 is a copy of the = M60. The C79 Optical Sight is a scope that is used on the C7, C8 (I haven't = been able to accurately find information on the C8; I have been told = that it is either a C7 with an integral under barrel grenade launcher, = like the U.S. M203, or a C7 with a scope), and C9. The C7/C8 has the = carrying handle removed to accommodate the scope. The optical sight is = adjustable for ranges from 200 to 800 metres in 100 metre increments. Grenade, Fragmentation, High Explosive M67 - this is Canada's frag = grenade. It is reported to be lethal in an 18 metre radius and have a = danger radius of 300 metres. I don't think I'll attempt to verify that = report 8^) Mines - Canada uses (or did use now that we've banned them) six = different mines. The Elsie C-3 is a shaped charge mine (looks similar to = a screw - flat on the top and pointed at the bottom) made from a green = phenolic plastic. The M16 or M16A2 is an anti-personnel mine nicked named the "Bouncing = Betty". This mine looks like a coffee can (it weighs 3.6 kg without = fuse) and both are green with stenciled yellow markings. A pressure of = between 3.6 to 9 kg is needed to set off the mine which "jumps" to a = height of 1 metre and detonates, with a casualty radius of 32 metres and = a danger radius of 185 metres. The M-18A1 Claymore is the same as the directional mine in the rule = book. This mine has a moulded case of fibreglass filled plastic, olive = drab in color. The M15 is an anti-tank mine. It is cylindrical in shape (sort of looks = like a big cough drop) and weighs 13.6 kg. It needs a force of 135 to = 180 kg to set off. The M-21 anti-tank mine weighs about 7.8 kg. It is also cylindrical in = shape. It can be set off by 1.75 kg or more tilting the mine on an angle = of 20 degrees or more. It can also be set off by 132 kg of pressure. The DM-21 anti-tank mine is about 9.2 kg in weight, cylindrical in = shape, and is set off by 185 kg or better. It also has a five minute = delay arming mechanism that allows the mine to be laid from helicopters = or moving vehicles. Canadian Forces doctrine did state that ALL UNITS be capable of laying = protective minefields.=20 Hope this clears up any gaps for you. RCamp - -----Original Message----- From: C. Webb [SMTP:negril@mindspring.com] Sent: Sunday, November 29, 1998 5:56 PM To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Subject: Re: Small Arms Questions >>Hey does anyone have info on what small arms these armies use: >>Denmark, Sweeden, Finland, Norway, Greece >>What is the GPMG for Canada in Twilight would it be the MAG or M60? = V1.0 >>>>lists the MAG and V2.0 lists the M60. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1D39.8FC8DE80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ii8TAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5 NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAnAIAAAIAAAANAAAAAwAAMA MAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHR3aWxpZ2h0Mj AwMEBN UEdOLkNPTQBTTVRQAHR3aWxpZ2h0MjAwMEBNUEdOLkNPTQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTV RQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFgAAAHR3aWxpZ2h0MjAwMEBNUEdOLkNPTQAAAAMAFQwAAAAQAwD+DwYA AAAeAAEw AQAAABgAAAAndHdpbGlnaHQyMDAwQE1QR04uQ09NJwACAQswAQAAABsAAABTTVRQOlRXSUxJ R0hU MjAwMEBNUEdOLkNPTQAAAwAAOQAAAAACARI6AQAAAEkAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ 9UAgAA AAB0d2lsaWdodDIwMDBATVBHTi5DT00AU01UUAB0d2lsaWdodDIwMDBATVBHTi5DT00AAAAACw BA OgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADDAAAAAMAADAEAAAACwAPDgEAAAACAf8PAQAAAE kAAAAAAAAA gSsfpL6jEBmdbgDdAQ9UAgAAAAB0d2lsaWdodDIwMDBATVBHTi5DT00AU01UUAB0d2lsaWdodDIw MDBATVBHTi5DT00AAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABYAAAB0d2ls aWdodDIw MDBATVBHTi5DT00AAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAYAAAAJ3R3aWxpZ2h0 MjAwMEBN UEdOLkNPTScAAgELMAEAAAAbAAAAU01UUDpUV0lMSUdIVDIwMDBATVBHTi5DT00AAAMAADk AAAAA CwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAAEL3UBBIABABkAAABSRTogU21hbGwgQXJtcyBRdWV zdGlv bnMAiAgBBYADAA4AAADOBwwAAQAOAC8AEAACADEBAQYABwABAAAAAAAAASCAAwAOAA AAzgcMAAEA DQAxABwAAgA+AQEJgAEAIQAAADRGOTdCQzU4NTYxREJFMTE4MjE1NTI1MEVCQTc2RDlGADkH AQOQ BgA8EQAAIwAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAEAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQABAAAAAwAuAAAAAAA CATEAAQAA AOIAAABQQ0RGRUIwOQABAAIATAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABtc3BzdC5kbGwA AAAA AE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcV0lORE9XU1xvdXRsb29rLnBzdAAYAAAAAAAAACsfWPtTHb4R ghVSUOunbZ+igAAAGAAAAAAAAAArH1j7Ux2+EYIVUlDrp22fhA0gABgAAAAAAAAAKx9Y+1Mdvh GC FVJQ66dtn8KAAAAQAAAAT5e8WFYdvhGCFVJQ66dtnxkAAABSRTogU21hbGwgQXJtcyBRdWVzdGlv bnMAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAA4jBmYx2+AR4AcAABAAAAGQAAAFJFOiBTbWFsbCBBcm1zIFF 1ZXN0 aW9ucwAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvh1hSw+tkLimiR8R0qoQREVTVAAAAAAeAB4MAQAAAA UAAABT TVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFAAAAGJvb3Rib3lAbmlhZ2FyYS5jb20AAwAGEIS/5IgDAAcQhQkAAB4 A CBABAAAAZQAAAENBTkFESUFOQVJNU0ZPUlNPTERJRVJTOlNFUlZJQ0VSSUZMRTU1Nk1NQzctRV NT RU5USUFMTFlUSEVNMTZBMldJVEhBU0NPUEVMSUdIVE1BQ0hJTkVHVU41NTZNTUM5LUNPTVAA AAAA AgEJEAEAAAATDQAADw0AAHQaAABMWkZ1kiO66gMACgByY3BnMTI1cjIMYGMxAzABBwtgbpEO EDAz Mw8WZmUPkk8B9wKkA2MCAGNoCsBzhGV0AtFwcnEyAACSKgqhbm8SUCAwAdCFAdA2D6AwNTA0F CHz AdAUEDR9B20CgwBQA9T7Ef8TC2IT4RRQE7IY9BTQrwcTAoACkQjmOwlvMBrf+mUOMDUcCh0hHN8d 6Rv0/x4SHH8gTyANH48dvxwPEGD8Mjgl2ibxJq8nuRv0J+K/Jk8qHyndKV8njytUOQ5QHy6kMAEo IzAAAoJzdHnqbAeQaAngdAAAE1AD8FBkY3RsCrFcMlhhmGRqdTFwBRBnaAVCOxYyDAFjCcAyYAMw c258ZXgXMAewBbAAwAJzc7EAUHNiMhRQMWBhE/D0XGsJ4HALkDI/MqMIYOsykAuAZTGgdjlgAUAz m78MMDRkKAA3QASgC4BnJ/HpNOZiYRcQZAIgNaA1Rucx0DOQO5EgMTEzDlA2n/83rzi/AFE5/ACg NG48fz2G/zEkD8A+jz+fQK8OUDnvQw/bRB89szMCghMQYzZgS6GTM5A9sHRpOZAgRAEQqGF1bAVA UArAYQnA4GFwaCBGAiE2JCVA6GZpLQ+QOAFAOTBQM+tHDzKjYgsgcglQUlIWoNlSUnc0JUEXAHA B 0E1yfzO/Sp9Lpk/QTpAFEAIwLUNPMANhOiBUb1ewUyh1YmoFkHRXsERh6HRlOjYkNk//UQ9SH/9T L1Q5McA9ow4hS6E6tg5Qm1VvVn5SOYEXASBIPZH7BJA2JDdZb1p/W49cnTkPL12/D5BpcAjQYgqw dDj/SfoPVEYQX79gxmoAYdALULx5L09AXLALEWJFczYk/ygAYz9kT2VfXK9UT2tfbG/vbXVX0ld0 WKk5b78zPwMwHWmzOXOfdK96oERvY/51B4ACMAXQTwAaAXjSeDD3eHBxUQGAblgwAGAJ8E2g730 A AgE14F5SZQDwfQAxgJJwHoBcdgiQd2sLgP5ka0CAogTwB0AQYQFADgDvcSI9goIFAhBvBUIXIRLy DVjAbQtRWMAgQzpc6lxXAG9O4W1PMAMQB5BNhLBNDeADYHNvAYAgrk8BIA3gf/BchmZFAMD1Ax Au S3B0fdAXEHhwNSHtZ3J4AUB/AW4x0BrwiAQ9TjRjAyAS8wCABZBsdv9BoUbQDnA14IqSAZAAIIsi /4DxfUEBwYqRFuAPcAAARtDzDNABkCAuGhKKiA5Qi0L/TnB4wIu/jM+N3w/ARtAFgbePf5CPkZ9s a0BG0GyPP/uT/5UFKY4MJUCS35e/lPT4YiAoApGY34rTWVCWj/+bT5xfnW+LAGMQnrKLj6Af/6Ev jgwoAJ6/pD+lT6ZfiwD/eACjP6jPqd+q5Ar5AzB4L/N5P3rNe0MAcD2hA5EKwNV/oCB/cSCGEGw9 sGIB/joKhQqFBmGAoIagB/AGkIExoCA1LjU2bYUwvEM3AzB/AUtATyAgB5DPFxACMAcxbTAgdDHQ BdDxWUBBMiAD8LkAtCC0sOsFoIBgLrVcTLJTfYAW0PFngSBHdQOgtxZ6obfGnwWghCBOsQJgE4B0 b7j02UYQOSy5n7WKaAkRB/DrD2ETgEG4gS0HEARgCHB0IFc9kHACIKpQu1MpQapQU1JBQVfCwCl1 wyBNAcAtt4q5AAQAIP/FEbkCs6dtYYagBCABAACQPmezwE3QwpG0grkCVS78Uy7D4rtAw4C/78D/ wgtpYlF2ecMnSMPBxGx3P8JkxRG4TjVwANAFQGR1/wtQDeCEUoYgxWVxULwhrLHydsggVXA9cRrw xTADoM+zo5VQTcAAEHF1g0ATgD0EIGuwgbQRxVbQ0iBi97jktMa6bUcJ8ASQB0BOkA8IcMKAE3G7 uihHUE1CR8MgNy42MrdSNv/EWoRx2TDFEZVQv6G44NBFVk0T8LptVMWCN3qgT/cFMM/hAyBTslPa U7+TuPF/WLDFMrIQCYDQMAOgxXM35b8AQ2oAKEk9cMvACfD70sYFQGIJ4bQgvhUA0H0Q/07AWMC 4 0W7QfxDR8X9yxxT732YogCDgVOFUvlC04N6F/d3DZb8xBJC/YbeBvyTN8f0CMGVO4QMgvEAEgdSQ CsD/GvADIAnBs8ETgAtgvEAW0P8EkL8AZ3BGoMepFJG/AAWx++bZv4QpvwAAcDUgvODIIH3chC/g ERbgxVSBkOiwefs9wpShZLbhGvAEYGfQ5ZH/4hMDcARhhFLU07+j3HO/sP/dJMbR3bWx874DtIJO wMoh/7RhA2FFYGlwvkJvIDWgB4D/sjAHkbBBaWH1NNHxBQCEEP99QdWP6RS/AFdwTtB9MscTxb8A SLJRIEV4C1ATYP9N4ttgxE8EINI00sgDUE7Q++j2yCBJ3cMa8MKAACDvxP/hYOlwFyAW4AMgsEED kXWh//YkTsA9sLIQ7MPkw5VQt+D/yiHzsgCD0EEUEPUm/ZHGoOcQ4ODIxPFua+SQ0sa4wP+0IBEA hBEEIb5gYfG2wLji596x/hT08F4ptVyFwDVg39pgt7fSNd8R2mAo62E9sPs1IN8RILCB3oTNoNLG 5OK/DbA1YOWShBDDIPJQeAoxN4bwiUF9UW0IYu00RWzz8lCEcS0z3dUW4IBgNSCfFtLKMQ3SqlD6 EG9r2mD/8lAN0LAgx5HiEb+BGvAVcP+3t7bQ3rHfZb5Q0ZDs0sKA7+eiNSDesbkCYoNAvlAMwf+H cOlR9EOVUCvjFAAx0BgQ/8/RFACwIDFwhdC6Zu1SuUH/61K5RNpS/4LKgYBgcnBLgPdnkRBErTBj RqA1ILPAfTDbDHOIYWTzUATUQmdA6bD9PcJCg5AxgCXgHAftMvuh/xBTELTqI9qCDVHuUsKh5gH3 zaCyUdpgM9jA01A94Ovi/2dBtHDfEcMg7NIVAb9R0dF/FkTr4zFwLBAc0DGgNSB5r2eg+hASIIdw coDhZwMhdkEUAPVxc9cQ0CPhYHT/zaDhgSESvlF6oCFR+6E1YH8rgO/EYiATAYbwuPMQU3f/u+Dp wBvasgCEIHHAHYgRhPcx0LJTAmEx9hXs0q1gvlD/xwHGgL8HgZAl8IGgMYAB6t+5gPVF7NIBbyyB OFbgAtVTF7pu8DhBLKBDsCB5/8rQ0dLFVEZQfTDTtj2wFlC/sNDHMdbREFP1sbkCck5g/xTiENAe Ku3ylVDK0bTgD7L/S0HQMm7QcSDn0BdBtGGHkP8kQhc160FncE3xcUDzQNHy+/BA+hByF6xW4Bk5 8zAEcfMN0v2WY3lncXFA3TP1sb8Pc6pQhhDJ0QJhHutislB9vZF1+bFxQL+wIkQgpTF/IRT9kyfi 2mJ/cbaBLHIzf1bgvlF1oE1gJ4EoWDJsMv8soD3MIJbzQCHC2LBqAEPV/9pSDpC+YD8vD5H9kyAi /tHjKIbUoTEuN1bgJ4HrYf8z07iQihAc4ikHwpEZYznQ/9AjcqGtYBZCAkFOFEwXSoO/TK0vsU3S 0FAltheqREefvzYySSbtIFOD9bEgo3S/AP9K3w+R7LT7oUzaMdFN1CZx/3dwPFD9okqDOCRu0PpR DdH/Z1A1MWegM7C0IhzifTAP4f2tMHP0cN6TuLGwkMVUEFP//qWHgDBw9EMsAM/R8dHVYf9N9LZg HPFn0CmhhXG6bcW/f4AheeC8AQpCrLHws96xQYRMTOqgTklUU/7C/4GQsaDzUkDSM7Ac4iWw0wF/ NZFc5InQgLC04AMh1axIf95UPvL/AHlQ3vETsuLAZ9t9kLRkecIQum1Ss6CEIN/VrK+ksG+xfwcg e25fb2P/iICtom+/cM93wLMzfECKYphia20Q4KzCIF/XgEWHkETigGF9LXfST7d54fWw1tFNuEH4 wGV303Nuy7AGczGjEDmAMzAwv/UAiHFFwXOPfEWC4mx9QzMq4ILidzSaMILgc3C9UIFcIcGIgv8A 4JBsiNC/setAETVQyiD14bMRYrGg/nTt0HaAsqdgoIESvtCzJud11vig8FA6XPMx0iDIIAXCUGKq QFtTTVRQ5jrWoLNBbEAN0URwJbD1JTEu8EFdeX96hKeAew//fB99L348se+y+YHxdeW2MH+vIIRk ruGOlugxM7Df8E4t76Ft4WC2EDK+8TE5sjnt0DU6tzDW8E1uxvmOWVRvj04mkIXgjRL0kQAwQE1Q R04uQ2ZPkk+QE2JqNYGPTlJ8ZTq2ICTwBTHKsdpgUfZ1xoDHInOHD7BCc090Xz+ND7NTcl+bj5yf cZM+Pv/LoOLAA3AwI2zgN/P6UeMy/99SKZDesV7AmPK0M7kB11HfXeLGgd8RtUaiYETgoCTyfd/w UyahrWH4gfWwgqFkX5CifkCQgvgRNYBlpmdXv96luQLYUrRz0jawUFSUtd+/EDiS5fL+0bkDQdSA GKLV23A/uCBWTYAwpmeiYJ87QJ1gxVStkuzSVjKugH/qEa9323+WYXZ0t8F3KX0GALQAtDAAAwAQ EAAAAAADABEQAQAAAAMAgBD/////QAAHMGBPz1JbHb4BQAAIMGBPz1JbHb4BAgEUOgEAAAAQ AAAA T5e8WFYdvhGCFVJQ66dtnwsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgA ggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABS hQAAtw0AAB4A JYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAA DAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgA ggBgAAAAAA wAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAA AAAAAB4AQYAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAA AAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAA ABAAAAAAAA AB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADgoQ== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE1D39.8FC8DE80-- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:47:09 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: Iraq invades Saudi Arabia Here's some info on the limitations of Tomahawk cruise missiles. Block II Conventional land attack (operational late 80s) Block IIA unitary warhead (BGM-109C) 675nm range, 450 kg warhead. Block IIB bomblet dispenser (BGM-109D) 472nm range. Block III (operational 1993) Range about 1000nm. 320 kg warhead with same power as older type. Increased range with GPS guidance added (his speeds up target selection). First used in Sept 95 strikes in Bosnia. Probably also used recently in Afghanistan and Sudan. Block IVA will enter service 1998-2000. It will have a satellite datalink. The ultimate Block IV will enter service in 2004 with a IR seeker and new penetrating warhead. It takes 12 hours to program a Block II strike. During the Gulf War targeting tapes were flown from the states to the Gulf, then helicoptered from the carriers to the shooters. 12 hours was the minimum. No missions could have taken place in the Gulf till August 13th (lack of TERCOM maps). Around 900 BGM-109C and 100 BGM-109D were available January 1991 in the USN, 477 were in theatre. So if Iraq had invaded Saudi Arabia no Tomahawk strikes could have taken place till the 13th August. The BGM-109C has a unitary warhead, only useful for attacking fixed targets. The BGM-109D would have been more useful against supply dumps and the like. The USN would have been more succesful, but the numbers wouldn't have been enough. The only carrier on station was USS Independence in the Indian Ocean. She was ordered into the Gulf of Oman upon the Kuwait invasion (a long way from Kuwait). She ventured into the Persian Gulf on the 1st October (the first time since 1974). USS Dwight D Einshower passed into the Red Sea, from the Mediterranean on the 8th August. USS Saratoga did the Suez canal on the 23rd August and also operated out of the Red Sea. 2200 Marines were with the amphibs of this group. USS John F. Kennedy relieved the Ike on the 12th September. The USS Midway group relieved the Indy in the Gulf on the 1st of November. The 82nd Airborne Div. started arriving on the 8th August. The 101st Airborne Div. started on arriving on the 11th, but were not all in theatre till late September. The 24th Infantry (Mech) Div. started arriving in early September, 1st Cavalry Div. in mid-October. Both units did not have the 120mm M1A1. The 3rd Armoured Cavalry Regiment deployed with the M1A1, arriving between September 19th and October 3rd. The 12th Combat Aviation Brigade had also deployed sometime in this period. By the end of October 8 battalions (144) of AH-64 Apache, over 700 Abrams tanks (580 105mm, 123 120mm) could have stopped a thrust into Saudia Arabia. The USMC started arriving sometime between the 14th and 17th. The 2 tank battalions had 100 M60A1s with ERA and no thermal imagers. The Uk deployed the 7th Armoured Brigade from September onwards. France also in September. Egypt sent its first division end Sept/early Oct. Plenty of gaps for Iraq to invade Saudi Arabia. They would have ran out of steam due to supply problems, but not before over running most of the ports and air fields used in the coalition build up. Iraq invaded Kuwait 1 am on the 2nd August. 48 hours later they were on the border with Saudi Arabia (3 Republician Guard divisions: 2 Armoured, 1 Mech.) Within 4 days of the invasion 8 divisions were massed on the border. US Central Command started deploying on the 6th August. I believe the US would have used tactical nuclear weapons on the invading Iraqi's. Source: The Naval Institute guide to Naval Weapons Systems 1997-98 The Naval Institute guide to Ships & Aircraft of the US Fleet, 15th ed. Osprey Elite Series: Armies of the Gulf War *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 21:18:28 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: Iraq v USA 91 An F-18 from the USS Saratoga had been reported as being shot down by a SAM. 'Wings of Fury' by Robert Wilcox ISBN 0-671-74793-2 actually has an Iraqi MiG-25 shooting it down (Page 244-249). Its an excellent read on Gulf War. The Iraqi Mirage F-1 pilots were trained by the French and were highly regarded. They were out classed by USAF F-15 pilots however. The MiG-25 Foxbat pilots were also highly regarded. The MiG-29 and Su-24 had only entered service a year or so earlier. The pilots would not have been combat ready. Serviceability of Iraqi Air Force would have been low. Iraq may have had combat experience against Iran. This is not the same as experience against highly trained US pilots. The Iraqi's did hit some M1 Abrams during the ground war. 'Certain Victory: The US Army in the Gulf War' by Brig. Gen. Robert H. Scales Jr.ISBN 0-02-881111-9. Page 213-215 has one incident involving Task Force 1-37th Armour, 3rd Brigade, 1st Armoured Division v Tawakalna Div. Delta 24 was sihouetted in front of a burning BMP. A T-72 at a range of 1000 metres hit and penetrated the turret ring. Three of the crew were injured. The M1 was immoblised. Page 269 has more: The action had started when TF 1-37 had crossed over a ridge and into a rear slope defence. The Iraqi tanks were 1000 metres away. Bravo 23 hit a mine and lost its engine. It still had battery power and kept fighting. Then Delta 24 was hit. Bravo 23 was hit by a T-72 in the hull rear. Another round hit in the rear turret and detonated the 30 or so rounds. The blow out panels worked. The halon system controlled the fire, the crew evacuated and the tank started to burn. Two more M1 were lost in the action. 76 T-72s, 84 BMPs, and support vehicles were lost by the Iraqi's. Any tank can be penetrated from the flanks. Even from the front tanks can be penetrated through the turret ring and vision blocks. Peter Note none of the M1 threw their turrets off, like the T-72s. Hence the birth of the rumour that no M1 were destroyed (later none were penetrated). *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:11:40 -0600 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: Re: Iraq invades Saudi Arabia Good stuff. Not so sure about this last statement. >I believe the US would have used tactical nuclear weapons on the invading >Iraqi's. It is standing US policy to use nuclear weapons as a response to enemy use of WMD. If the Iraqis had used WMD against the US troops, then yes, I think we would have responded with a nuke. Otherwise, if the US had used tactical nuclear weapons to stop a conventional attack, the US would have quickly lost its support of the world governments (which was tentative, at best). Remember, the Russians (and Chinese) were opposed to using Mililtary force in the Gulf. They have nukes. For us to use a nuke FIRST may have been disastrous -- although it MAY provide an interesting "alternate reality" scenario for a TW2000 setting.....Yes, the US had plans to use nukes in defense of Western Europe; Saudi Arabia, however is not Western Europe. As historical precedent, remember that the US did NOT use tactical nukes in Korea in '51-'53. Even after being pushed south to Pusan, and sustaining extremely heavy losses in Men and material, the US declined to use nukes. For much the same reasons as above. If anything, a "Pusan" scenario in Saudi may have been likely. (with a requisite recreation of Inchon occuring later at, say, Kuwait city). By the way, as an ironic side note, the US now recieves a vast amount of its oil from Venezuela -- not the Mid East. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 07:01:01 -0600 From: Mitch Berg Subject: Shameless Plug for New Stuff on Site I've just updated my T2K site with some new stuff: * New skills for Firefighting, Seamanship, Dog Training, Nuclear Reactor Operator, Animal Husbandry and several others. These have mostly been present without explanation in my character generation site. Check it out at http://www.humanwaredesign.com/t2k/ Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (651)644-4192 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Setting Problems I'll explain my position with a little analogy. Imagine an ant steps on your property. Now the average person would just step on it and save money, but not the US. We would first threaten the ant to leave, issue an ultamatum or twenty, then when it doesn't leave go out to the hardware store and round up all the pesticides, pest killers and blunt objects we can find and hurl them at the ant until we break a leg or two, then we drive at the ant in a rented bulldozer chasing it off our property but stopping before we squish it so that we can yell at it some more and show the world what a bad ant it is. I am not saying that what the US did was wrong, I personally believe to war helped the nation, but I find it difficult to believe we needed all that billions of dollars worth of man, machines, and munitions, when for a few billion we could have paid Saddam to leave the Kuwait. - -S.B.Burzmali - ---"C. Webb" wrote: > > I don't understand how you can discount the personnel, equipment and > strategy by simply stating that the Coalition's answer was to throw money > at the situation. What do you think all that money bought? Sure tons of > money was spent to make that happen but that money translated into a > definable war machine. > etc. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Setting Problems I'll explain my position with a little analogy. Imagine an ant steps on your property. Now the average person would just step on it and save money, but not the US. We would first threaten the ant to leave, issue an ultamatum or twenty, then when it doesn't leave go out to the hardware store and round up all the pesticides, pest killers and blunt objects we can find and hurl them at the ant until we break a leg or two, then we drive at the ant in a rented bulldozer chasing it off our property but stopping before we squish it so that we can yell at it some more and show the world what a bad ant it is. I am not saying that what the US did was wrong, I personally believe to war helped the nation, but I find it difficult to believe we needed all that billions of dollars worth of man, machines, and munitions, when for a few billion we could have paid Saddam to leave the Kuwait. - -S.B.Burzmali - ---"C. Webb" wrote: > > I don't understand how you can discount the personnel, equipment and > strategy by simply stating that the Coalition's answer was to throw money > at the situation. What do you think all that money bought? Sure tons of > money was spent to make that happen but that money translated into a > definable war machine. > etc. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:00:45 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Setting Problems - ---"C. Webb" wrote: > Just how effective was their veteran force? Beats us, We never fought them. - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:00:45 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Setting Problems - ---"C. Webb" wrote: > Just how effective was their veteran force? Beats us, We never fought them. - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 00:15:54 +0200 From: "Peter Himberg" Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Let=B4s_make_a_adventure?= Well. I would like to do a scenario. With my experience, the best way to do very twisted scenario is do with it my friend. So, why we cannot use that technic in this Mailing List too? First, someone starts the scenario making with somekind basic plot or theme (ex. One man wants to hire somebody to kill his boss; or theme Aliens) and then someone of you in the list add something in this basic-plot ( ex. Boss is really a nice guy, but patron is a madman.) and so on. Get the Idea? If this thing works, we can put these scenarions in Net for read to everyone, and that way keep TW:2000 living in future. Sounds good? Let me know. Pietu Helsinki, Finland *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 18:43:04 +0100 From: "Eduardo Perez Santos" Subject: RE: Setting Problems Hello, all Yes, yes, ... technology and trained troops, but what about the morale of the iraqui troops ? With a few bombs, stealth aircraft and missiles, is enought to break a weak morale. This was a easy to win war. The iraquis in time of the iran-iraq war, would be more difficult to win. (It is my opinion). > With regard to the Gulf War let us never discount the fact that the > Coalition Forces were the best trained, most professional > soldiers on earth > backed with tremendous logistical support. As for technology, no matter > how you cut it, Iraq did not have equally advanced equipment both in the > air or on the ground and that played a huge role in determining > the outcome Snipped - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Eduardo Perez Santos Madrid (Spain) - GMT+1 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ ˇˇVisita la Página Oficial del Club Dragón!! http://www.ciudadfutura.com/clubdragon. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:20:31 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Re: Setting Problems > I'll explain my position with a little analogy. > >Imagine an ant steps on your property. Now the average person would >just step on it and save money, but not the US. We would first >threaten the ant to leave, issue an ultamatum or twenty, then when it >doesn't leave go out to the hardware store and round up all the >pesticides, pest killers and blunt objects we can find and hurl them >at the ant until we break a leg or two, then we drive at the ant in a >rented bulldozer chasing it off our property but stopping before we >squish it so that we can yell at it some more and show the world what >a bad ant it is. > >I am not saying that what the US did was wrong, I personally believe >to war helped the nation, but I find it difficult to believe we needed >all that billions of dollars worth of man, machines, and munitions, >when for a few billion we could have paid Saddam to leave the Kuwait. > >-S.B.Burzmali Well, from what I recall concerning why Saddam invaded Kuwait a few billion would not have made him budge. He was after the oil deposits and the ports to ship it out of. With that under his control he would have been making more than a few billion and would have been a much more influencial force in the middle east. Hell, who knows how much Saddam netted in liquid assets looted from Kuwait City alone. As for the ant analogy, invading a country and sacking its capitol city is nothing to be taken lightly. Also, don't forget what it might have been like to have someone like Saddam controlling such a large amount of oil supply. That's a really big factor here. Lastly, you don't want to fight a war half assed. Saddam's forces, while weaker, were no ants. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:38:55 PST From: "Joshua Lueck" Subject: Order of battle website My name is Joshua lueck and I need some help with a project for twilight 2000. What i want to do is to make a internet database for the Armies in the twilight 200 roleplaying system. I have the United State Combat Vehicle handbook. but I can not find the Soviet or Nato Combat Vehicle Guides. What I want is any information on the Orders of battle and the Unit histories that are in the final section of each handbook. On a related subject my United States combat vehicle handbook is missing the selected unit TO/E data. Can someone please provided thi inforamtion to Please email any information for this database to the following address: luec3493@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:38:55 PST From: "Joshua Lueck" Subject: Order of battle website My name is Joshua lueck and I need some help with a project for twilight 2000. What i want to do is to make a internet database for the Armies in the twilight 200 roleplaying system. I have the United State Combat Vehicle handbook. but I can not find the Soviet or Nato Combat Vehicle Guides. What I want is any information on the Orders of battle and the Unit histories that are in the final section of each handbook. On a related subject my United States combat vehicle handbook is missing the selected unit TO/E data. Can someone please provided thi inforamtion to Please email any information for this database to the following address: luec3493@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:20:57 +0100 From: Marco Pietersen Subject: Nuke effect and EMP Well, it seemed to me that the effects of the several sorts of EMP were not quit clear, so I dug up a site that explains it in great detail: http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm Marco Pietersen - -- "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:09:25 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Setting Problems - ---"C. Webb" wrote: > > > Well, from what I recall concerning why Saddam invaded Kuwait a few billion > would not have made him budge. He was after the oil deposits and the ports > to ship it out of. With that under his control he would have been making > more than a few billion and would have been a much more influencial force > in the middle east. Hell, who knows how much Saddam netted in liquid assets > looted from Kuwait City alone. > Good point he could make billions selling oil from the country he just raved to conquer. If he could sell it, tht is, with a complete embargo on Iraq I doubt he would sell too much oil to say the anyone seeing that we would sink any ship coming out of the region. > As for the ant analogy, invading a country and sacking its capitol city is > nothing to be taken lightly. Also, don't forget what it might have been > like to have someone like Saddam controlling such a large amount of oil > supply. That's a really big factor here. > Saddam does control supply of oil. > Lastly, you don't want to fight a war half assed. Saddam's forces, while > weaker, were no ants. > Relatively speaking anythings an ant if you have a big enough can of bug spray. - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 12:10:52 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: Misc- LETA Website, Check it out. Hello All, This post is in regards to the LETA website, which is now up and running. We are currently conducting a contest where you can win $30 worth of credit towards the purchase of your favorite RPG- more details below. For those of you who are on multiple lists and receiving this post several times- I apologize for any inconvenience that it may be causing you. We currently have an auction running which has several RPG's, and there is a little of everything on the site. More items are added on a regular basis, so take a look- you may be able to pick up that piece or two that's missing from your private collection. "About Us" will tell you all about the business end of our site, and you can place an order for us to do a search for any RPG item that you desire. There are no costs involved in the search until you actually decide to order- then our fees are added directly into the price that we quote you for the product. Check out our search list, and join our world-wide network of scouts who help others find the products that they're looking for. Our search list shows the items that we are currently trying to find for our customers. We buy, sell, and trade items. Targeted for the 1st of January, we will be having a monthly newsletter with articles submitted by members of our online community, interviews with various writers, designers, and editors of RPG's, and all of the latest news that we can get you about the gaming community. Take a look at the links section where we will be adding 6 k. worth of links in the very near future- there are already many posted. These are all free sites there for your perusal. We post both RPG, and topic-related sites. Finally, our Resources page will be adding several features for your viewing pleasure. These will include dicebots for various chat programs, and play. Programs to aid you in Mastering/Playing FRP's, the convention calendar with dates, and information regarding the various RPG events around the world. Lots of fun stuff will be in this section. Now, for the contest. Anyone who joins our community (always free) by Dec. 31st, 1998- will be entered into a random drawing for $30 worth of credit on RPG materials ordered through us. Your membership will allow you to subscribe to our free monthly newsletter so that it is sent directly to your e-mail box, and allows you to be informed of site updates as they occur. We will be adding a gamer's directory so that you can find players in your area as well. Registration into the gamers' directory will be added to the memberships as soon as that is online. Take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks. Jesse. vanquer@email.msn.com http://www.gryffon.com/leta for all your role-playing needs ICQ. 8004143 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:46:07 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: TW2000 website Dear Rob, I have contacted Marc at heartland publishing and discussed what might be involved in liscensing the TW2000 title for publishing rights. I am in the beginning stages of a business plan. This is still very loose. My question to you is in regards to a website that I have established. It basically tells visitors that we are looking into the possibility of liscensing TW2000. There is also a questionaire in place at this site which allows players to submit their opinion concerning rules, etc. I would like to know what to do about clearing this site with Tantalus. -Best, Chris Webb *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:27:18 +0100 From: "Eduardo Perez Santos" Subject: Russian Individual weapons Hello, all Someone knows if there are any web page covering the individual weapons in the world war II ? How many men man a russian HMG ? or MMG ? and the like. Yes, yes, this is T2K, but with a few modifications ... 8-) Saludos - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Eduardo Perez Santos Madrid (Spain) - GMT+1 - ------------------------------------------------------------------ ˇˇVisita la Página Oficial del Club Dragón!! http://www.ciudadfutura.com/clubdragon. - ------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #58 ************************************