twilight2000-digest Monday, November 9 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 050 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types Re: weight in grains of various ammo types Re: weight in grains of various ammo types New Website Looking for a game in Vancouver Re: weight in grains of various ammo types Re: German AR Re: German AR Re: weight in grains of various ammo types Re: German AR Re: German AR Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Re: German AR Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Thanks for the grains... & stuff. First recoil results Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. Thanks Everybody for the info Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 New MBT ammunition Small Arms (long) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:42:01 -0600 From: "Randy, Rico & Monifa" Subject: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types >> Subject: weight in grains of various ammo types >> Any good reloading manual should do just fine >> >I'm sure it would, but in the Netherlands (rather low on guns), these >things are not exactly growing on trees. What I need is teh FMJ grain >weights for, basically the following Ak, sorry, my fault for assuming Sory. I posted the "standard weights" to those you specified > >4.7x21mm Caseless 52gr at 2700fps (feet per second) >5.45x39mm Russian 123gr at 2300fps >5.56x45mm NATO 55gr at 3300fps or 62gr at 3100 fps >.22 LR 37gr at 1200 fps >7.62x25mm Tokarev 93 gr at 1350 fps >.45 ACP 300gr at 750 fps >.50 AE 325gr at 1275 fps >.357 Magnum 158gr at 1250 fps >7.62x51mm NATO 147gr at 2800 fps >.30-06 180gr 2800 fps >9mm Parabellum 124gr 1200 fps >12.7x99mm BMG 750gr at 2700 fps >7.62x39mm Russian 150gr at 2600fps sory again for being lazy earlier, also, I will try to post a URL to a site with more info, for now, you could use http://www.nra.org > >With these, I would have a reliable cross section in order to be able >to give some sensible ratings for recoil. So if anyone has these at >hand, I would be much obliged if you could mail them to me, or post >them here. > >Thanks, EJ >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:49:12 -0600 From: "Randy, Rico & Monifa" Subject: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types here is another to try, http://w3.one.net/~melchar/relo.html it has several types of rounds for information *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:58:47 -0600 From: "Randy, Rico & Monifa" Subject: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types here is a very accurate formula I came up with to give in-game damage values. You will find that they match MOST of those in the game: (WxVsquared)/450240=ME (square root of ME/2)*.15 rounded to the nearest whole number=DMG W= weight of bullet in grains V= velocity in feet per second ME= muzzle energy and of course, DMG= weapon damage *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:44:04 -0800 From: "Jesse LaBranche" Subject: New Website Hello all, Just a quick note to let everyone know that my Website is now officially open to the public. This is not specifically "on-topic", however it is RPG site that features this setting as well as all others that I am able to gain access to. We will be featuring contests, auctions, links to various gaming sites, free membership, a monthly newsletter, and many bits of information on the latest in the gaming world. Come on in check it out in the bare-bones. It will be added to on a regular basis. Comments to the webmaster and myself are welcomed- and encouraged. Our goal is to make this your one-stop link to all the great gaming sites out there. On this end, if there are any sites that you would like to see added to our pages- please let us know. Thanks. Jesse. Vanquer@EMAIL.MSN.COM http://www.gryffon.com/leta for all your gaming needs. ICQ. 8004143 P.S. Monitors- I apologize for the post, I think that it is "related" though? *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 22:25:13 PST From: "Adrian Trollip" Subject: Looking for a game in Vancouver Hi All Just a quick note to find out if there are any games in Vancouver BC that are looking for any players. I have not been playing TW2000 long, more of an AD&D player, but I really enjoy it. I am currently in South Africa but will be moving to Vancouver end of November. Thanks Adrian (Ex South African Defence Force Combat Medic) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 02:09:41 -0500 From: Hound Subject: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types Stats given here are from BTRC's GUNS GUNS GUNS >5.56x45mm NATO Energy: 1790J Round Weight: 8.8g Propellant Weight: 1.21g Projectile Weight: 4.00g Velocity: 950m/sec >.22 LR Energy: 190J Round Weight: 3g Propellant Weight: 0.13g Projectile Weight: 2.46g Velocity: 394 m/sec >.45 ACP Energy: 490 J Round Weight: 22.8g Propellant Weight: 0.33g Projectile Weight: 21.5g Velocity: 214 m/sec >.357 Magnum Energy: 800 J Round Weight: 12.9g Propellant Weight: 0.54g Projectile Weight: 10.7g Velocity: 388 m/sec >7.62x51mm NATO Energy: 3290 J Round Weight: 19.1g Propellant Weight: 2.22g Projectile Weight: 10.2g Velocity: 806 m/sec >9mm Parabellum Energy: 595 J Round Weight: 12.1g Propellant Weight: 0.4g Projectile Weight: 10.5g Velocity: 337 m/sec >12.7x99mm BMG Energy: 18000 J Round Weight: 78.3g Propellant Weight: 12.1g Projectile Weight: 29.9g Velocity: 1100 m/sec BTRC's supplemental book for GUNS GUNS GUNS is called MORE GUNS and includes stats for firearms in several game systems based on a realistic penetration-based physics model, including for T2K v2 including conversion rules for taking any gun from it's real-world stats to provide it's in-game stats. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:28:14 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: German AR Marco Pietersen wrote: > > > In the end countries within NATO would have a handful of > > 5.56mm rifles to choose from- the FNC, M16A2/C7, the AUG, and the > > G36... > > > > Mad Mike > > The Dutch army is currently using the Canadian 'Dimago'. > Probably a somewhat cheaper M16-clone. Dieamco C7 and C7A1. They're M16s with hammer forged barrels (not that unusual; some aftermarket upper receivers have 'em). The A1 has a Elcan 3.4 power scope mounted on a flattop receiver. In addition the C7s are full auto as opposed to have three a round burst feature. As for being cheaper the Dutch actually agreed to upgrade Canada's 105 and 155mm howitzers as part of the deal and Colt did hold out being more than happy with the license fees (in addition to building some receivers) although the weaker Canadian dollar may have made the weapon very attractive as well as the long (20- 50,000 rounds) barrel life (Colt and FN can match these figures with the M16A2 with conventional button rifling due to CNC equipment). Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:36:07 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: German AR dragon@euronet.nl wrote: > > > It's the Diemaco C7 (C8 version as well) and the LSW verison is used > by the marines. Get the M249. Squads and fire teams should have real machineguns not rifles with bipods and extra two or three inches tacked onto the barrel. > The Diemaco is in fact more expensive than the M16A2 > as I understand, which makes sense because NL is more likely quality > than quantity. The DIemace has a forged instead of a cast barrel > (M16A2) The hammer forged barrels was originally designed to make fuel injection needles cheaply. there greatest advantage is long barrel life but button rifling tends to be more accurate (especiallyif one uses stainless blanks). > and the rear sights are a flip design with two settings, 100m > and 250m, on the rationale that the fully adjustable is too > vulnerable, and all teh support troops using the things won't sero > anyway. The A1 sights used on the C7 has an elevation knob for 500 yards/meter along with an adjustable front sight post in addition the rear sight has a smaller aperture for 300 meters and up and a bigger "ghost ring" type sight for shooting under 200 meters). The scope has a single post along with some stadia lines as well as an eelvation knob at the base. Makes longer range shooting easier because the sightpost is easier on the eyes. Not NRA National Match by any means but good enough for an armies which generally tend to have many many conscripts often who never touched a gun in their life. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:43:06 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: weight in grains of various ammo types dragon@euronet.nl wrote: > > > I'm sure it would, but in the Netherlands (rather low on guns), these > things are not exactly growing on trees. What I need is teh FMJ grain > weights for, basically the following Could try special ordering though a book store (although you may get some funny looks). Probably try Jane's Infantry Weapons. I'll try to break out my Military Weapons of the 20th Century (brought it to work for free time reading) > 4.7x21mm Caseless > 5.45x39mm Russian 61 grains. > 5.56x45mm NATO 55 or 63 grains > .22 LR Various but 40 grains seem to dominate especially lead softpoint. > 7.62x25mm Tokarev > .45 ACP 230 grain hardball > .50 AE This I'll need to buy the 199 G&A Annual. > .357 Magnum 125 and 158 grains tend to domiante > 7.62x51mm NATO 147 grains. > .30-06 150 grain spitzer ball. > 9mm Parabellum Various although military hardball seems to favor the 115 grain load and hollowpoint ammo tends to be most favored in 147 gr JHP. > 12.7x99mm BMG 600 plus for ball. More for API/API-T and less for SLAP. > 7.62x39mm Russian 123 gr FMJ. God I must like guns too much :P Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 03:15:58 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: German AR At 11:28 PM 11/3/98 -0800, Mad Mike wrote: > "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into >the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great >righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy >staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid >their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza >Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, >Jaroslav Hasek Heh. :) But the correct spelling (in the Czech, rather than the German) is "Svejk"--I think there's an accent over the e, but close enough. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 09:25:13 +0100 From: Marco Pietersen Subject: Re: German AR > > "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." > > -- Someone said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been > cancelled. > > Ain't that the truth. I enjoyed that show. It seems like all we have > today on (U.S.) TV are insipid sitcoms. > > Chuck I really like Jones, it's the combination of Ford, Lucas and Spielberg...Also, I like history and I think Young Indiana Jones is a very entertaining (not to say 'Intelligent' ;-) way to put it. And thanx to Rogue for the missing name... I got this quote from a Twilight discussion forum (is 'forum' correct?) at: http://townhall.webrpg.com/index.phtml?Update=yes&groupid=51&startat=&limit=&days= It could be very well rogue who put it there in the first place... It was a discussion about how stupid men could be. They were closing down some big RPG-producers, and everybody had some comment about the stupidity of our surrounding (non-rpg) world. This again was connected to a discussion about the budget-cuts of the US military... Yep, "Life's a theatre... A Theatre of Tragedy" Marco - -- "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." - -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 08:16:34 -0700 From: Kurt Stogrin Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 The Canadian "Dimago" C7, C8 is actually an improved M16. What I have heard is that Canada Got the rights and then improved the M16. Eventually the U.S. Marines Took all the improvments that Canada made and adopted it as their standard issue rifle. I'm not positive if this is true but this is what I was told while I served in the Canadian Armed Forces. dragon@euronet.nl wrote: > > > > The Dutch army is currently using the Canadian 'Dimago'. > > Probably a somewhat cheaper M16-clone. > > > > Marco > > -- > It's the Diemaco C7 (C8 version as well) and the LSW verison is used > by the marines. The Diemaco is in fact more expensive than the M16A2 > as I understand, which makes sense because NL is more likely quality > than quantity. The DIemace has a forged instead of a cast barrel > (M16A2) and the rear sights are a flip design with two settings, 100m > and 250m, on the rationale that the fully adjustable is too > vulnerable, and all teh support troops using the things won't sero > anyway. Line infantry, commando's and other combat units have an > optical sight on a M16A3 type receiver, which I'll be able to try out > soon, nd I'll let you know what I think of it. > > EJ > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:06:05 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: German AR > > I really like Jones, it's the combination of Ford, Lucas and Spielberg...Also, > I like history and I think Young Indiana Jones is a very entertaining > (not to say 'Intelligent' ;-) way to put it. And for it's trouble ABC cancelled it after one season... > > And thanx to Rogue for the missing name... > I got this quote from a Twilight discussion forum (is 'forum' correct?) at: > http://townhall.webrpg.com/index.phtml?Update=yes&groupid=51&startat=&limit=&days= > > It could be very well rogue who put it there in the first place... It was a > discussion about > how stupid men could be. They were closing down some big RPG-producers, and > everybody > had some comment about the stupidity of our surrounding (non-rpg) world. > This again was connected to a discussion about the budget-cuts of the US > military... Sounds like something I said during those discussions...maybe after AH was announced to have been bought out by Hasbro I think.... > > Yep, > "Life's a theatre... > A Theatre of Tragedy" > > Marco > > -- > "Truly those of us with brain cells are an oppressed minority..." > > -- Jason Fox said after the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles had been cancelled. > Until Later T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:08:53 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Kurt Stogrin wrote: > > The Canadian "Dimago" C7, C8 is actually an improved M16. What I have heard is > that Canada Got the rights and then improved the M16. Eventually the U.S. > Marines Took all the improvments that Canada made and adopted it as their > standard issue rifle. I'm not positive if this is true but this is what I was > told while I served in the Canadian Armed Forces. Diemaco makes some excellent products, although they had some teething problems early on with feeding problems...have not heard about the USMC adopting the C7 or C8 rifles...might have to look into that. T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:47:43 -0700 From: Kurt Stogrin Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 I believe how it was told to me was that the Marine Corps saw the improvements that Canada made and they decided to adopt them as well. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:03:18 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Kurt Stogrin wrote: > > I believe how it was told to me was that the Marine Corps saw the improvements that > Canada made and they decided to adopt them as well. > > > Not doubting your word Kurt...just hadn't heard about that's all...maybe that explains the M-16A3 model I've been hearing about... T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:02:32 +0000 From: dragon@euronet.nl Subject: Thanks for the grains... & stuff. Thanks to all who sent me the grain info. I shall get to work. I'm going to use the FMJ data as a basis, and this dmg formual that was posted sure looks interesting. For determining the next step, thequestion is, ofcourse, going to be weapon weights, but I'll get to that later. Thanks all, EJ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:56:55 +0000 From: dragon@euronet.nl Subject: First recoil results Hello everone, Here are the first results from working it all out. The weapons below are rated from lowest to highest recoil. Iused the formula E=1/2mv2 (that's v squared) to work out the energy of the bullet fired from the weapon, then I reversed the formula to work out how fast the rifle would be going in the other direction, in a weightless, frictionless enviroment. This is a fairly simplistic approach, in that it does not take into account the loss of energy from heat production, and how much energy is lost in movement other than recoil (though all movement caused by firing the weapon could be termed recoil). Essentially, the higher the recoil velocity, the higher the recoil value should be in the game. I've looked through some of the game statistics, and the highest recoil I could find for a non-bipod, stocked weapon, is 6, for the M40 marine sniper rifle. However, the highest value for a non sniper rifle is 4. I have peformed a couple of calculations, always assigning the lowest value (17.02 for the M1926A1 Thompson) as recoil 1, and variously assigning a M1 Garand as recoil 4 (43.43), an M14 as recoil 4 (39.25), and an M82A1 Barrett as recoil 6 (if that isn't six, then nothing is) these are all single shot recoils, and they assume no bipod, and the pistols need some extra thought, because they're difficult to hold on to. The table below shows the data I worked with, and several rifles are included various times due to various sources for data. rifle caliber Grain rifle kg velocity m/s recoil velocity M1926A1 Thompson .45ACP 300 5.3 281 17.02 M1A1 Thompson .45ACP 300 5.2 281 17.18 M249 w/200rnd box 5.56mmN 55 9.97 924 17.47 Uzi 9mmP 124 4 390 17.48 Sten Mk2 9mmP 124 3.5 365 17.49 MP5 9mmP 124 3.3 364.8 18.00 Sterling 9mmP 124 3.178 364.8 18.34 Vz-61 7.65mmT 93 1.5 294 18.63 M3A1 Greasegun .45ACP 300 4.2 280 19.05 MP5K 9mmP 124 2.497 364.8 20.69 M79 40mm HEDP 3550 2.95 76 21.22 L86A1 5.56mmN 55 4.5 834.48 23.48 M2HB 12.7mmBMG 750 57.98 820.8 23.76 FN-MAG 7.62mmN 147 12 854 24.06 L85A1 5.56mmN 55 4.1314 834.48 24.51 G11 4.7mmC 52 4 930 26.99 M16A2 5.56mmN 55 3.859 912 27.72 AR70 5.56mmN 55 4.313 966.72 27.79 GALIL 5.56mmN 55 4.3584 977.36 27.95 M16A2 5.56mmN 55 3.7682 912 28.05 Steryr AUG 5.56mmN 55 4.1314 957.6 28.13 SAR-80 5.56mmN 55 4.15864 967.632 28.33 C7 5.56mmN 55 3.9 945.44 28.58 C7A1 5.56mmN 55 3.9 945.44 28.58 M16A2 5.56mmN 55 3.8 945.44 28.95 M16A2 5.56mmN 55 3.8 945.44 28.95 FAMAS 5.56mmN 55 3.859 957.6 29.10 FN-FALO 7.62mmN 147 8 854 29.47 M1911A1 .45ACP 300 1.36 252 30.13 B92FS 9mmP 124 1.152 363.28 30.34 M16A2 5.56mmN 55 3.8 991 30.35 HK33 5.56mmN 55 3.5 960 30.63 M16A2 5.56mmN/SS109 62 3.8 945.44 30.74 Browning HP35 9mmP 124 1.096 360.24 30.84 AR18 5.56mmN 55 3.4504 963.68 30.97 HK USP 9mmP 124 1.012 351.12 31.29 XM177E3 5.56mmN 55 3 915 31.54 C8 5.56mmN 55 3.2 945.44 31.55 XM177E3 5.56mmN 55 2.97 915 31.70 AK47/Folding 7.62mmS 150 4.8 717 32.26 M16 5.56mmN 55 3.35 991 32.32 SIG P226 9mmP 124 0.9294 357.2 33.21 Glock 17 9mmP 124 0.86 351.12 33.94 HK G3 7.62mmN 147 5.2446 797.696 34.00 M16A1 5.56mmN 55 2.8602 988 34.88 FN-FAL 7.62mmN 147 5.7 854 34.91 AK47 7.62mmS 150 4.0406 729.6 35.78 FN-FAL 7.62mmN 147 4.86324 836 37.00 FAL 7.62mmN 147 5 854 37.27 L1A1 7.62mmN 147 5 854 37.27 L1A1 7.62mmN 147 5 854 37.27 AK74 5.45mmS 123 4.48098 897.712 37.86 M14 7.62mmN 147 4.5 853 39.25 M1 Garand .30-06 180 4.5 853 43.43 M82A1 Barrett 12.7mmBMG 750 15.55 820.8 45.89 Here follow the recoil values for each of the scenarios. rifle M1 as 4 M14 as 4 M82A1 as 6 M1926A1 Thompson1 1 1 M1A1 Thompson 1 1 1 M249 w/200rnd box 1 1 1 Uzi 1 1 1 Sten Mk2 1 1 1 MP5 1 1 1 Sterling 1 1 2 Vz-61 1 1 2 M3A1 Greasegun 1 1 2 MP5K 1 1 2 M79 1 2 2 L86A1 2 2 2 M2HB 2 2 2 FN-MAG 2 2 3 L85A1 2 2 3 G11 2 2 3 M16A2 2 2 3 AR70 2 2 3 GALIL 2 2 3 M16A2 2 2 3 Steryr AUG 2 2 3 SAR-80 2 3 3 C7 2 3 3 C7A1 2 3 3 M16A2 2 3 3 M16A2 2 3 3 FAMAS 2 3 3 FN-FALO 2 3 3 M1911A1 2 3 4 B92FS 2 3 4 M16A2 2 3 4 HK33 2 3 4 M16A2 2 3 4 Browning HP35 2 3 4 AR18 2 3 4 HK USP 2 3 4 XM177E3 2 3 4 C8 2 3 4 XM177E3 3 3 4 AK47/Folding 3 3 4 M16 3 3 4 SIG P226 3 3 4 Glock 17 3 3 4 HK G3 3 3 4 M16A1 3 3 4 FN-FAL 3 3 4 AK47 3 4 5 FN-FAL 3 4 5 FAL 3 4 5 L1A1 3 4 5 L1A1 3 4 5 AK74 3 4 5 M14 3 4 5 M1 Garand 4 5 6 M82A1 Barrett 4 5 6 Well that's what I've got so far. I'm going to make somethign up for bipods and pistols. If any of the weapon data is incorrect, let me know, and I'll fix it. For the rest, comments, thoughts and analysis please. Personally I'm thinking of using column no. 1 (M1 as 4) as my basis in the game. Have fun with it EJ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:06:02 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. dragon@euronet.nl wrote: > > Does anyone know what a grain is in kg? I mean a regular 5.56mm > bullet is 55 grain, and an SS-109 round is 62 grain, but what on > earth is that in kg? That way I can see if I can make sense of a > system to calculate some reliable recoils. Simple- a grain is .06480 grams or a gram is 15.432 grains. Naturally muzzle velocity does seriously decrease after the round leaves the barrel and expect the bullet to drop. Again I gotta grab a handloader/cartridge guide if I'm not too lazy- of course there's no way in hell I'm gonna spend the money on some Dillon dies and primers and powders and starting making wadcutters (I'll just try to see if i can get a good price on hardball;). Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:57:14 -0600 From: "Rodney Felts" Subject: Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. Sorry, had a brain fart. I am allowed a few per day. HellRazor - -----Original Message----- From: Ronald Aas To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 8:15 AM Subject: RE: An effort to refine the small arms formula. >Slight correction, there is 2,2 punds pr kg. (one pund is about 0,454 kg) > >ronald > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-twilight2000@lists.MPGN.COM >[mailto:owner-twilight2000@lists.MPGN.COM] On Behalf Of Rodney Felts >Sent: 3. november 1998 14:22 >To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM >Subject: Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: dragon@euronet.nl >To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM >Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 6:38 AM >Subject: An effort to refine the small arms formula. > > >"Does anyone know what a grain is in kg? I mean a regular 5.56mm >bullet is 55 grain, and an SS-109 round is 62 grain, but what on >earth is that in kg? That way I can see if I can make sense of a >system to calculate some reliable recoils. > >EJ" > >The answer to your question is 7000 grains to a pound. 1 pound = 2.2 Kg. I >hope this helps. > >HellRazor > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:07:29 -0500 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: An effort to refine the small arms formula. At 11:06 PM 11/4/98 -0800, Mad Mike wrote: > Simple- a grain is .06480 grams or a gram is 15.432 grains. >Naturally muzzle velocity does seriously decrease after the round >leaves the barrel and expect the bullet to drop. Not to be pedantic, but nothing at all happens to _muzzle_velocity after a bullet leaves the barrel, since muzzle velocity is the velocity at the precise time when the bullet leaves the barrel. :) Mind you, the bullet will certainly get slower after that.... Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 18:15:06 +0100 From: Pedro Arnal Puente Subject: Thanks Everybody for the info Hello all Many Thanks. ...por la destruccion de todo lo que es. *Saludos Mercenarios. Pedro Arnal Puente*** *ICQ: 10335335 * Correo-e: parnal@lander.es* *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:38:24 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Rogue09 wrote: > > > Diemaco makes some excellent products, although they had some teething > problems early on with feeding problems... Probably due to the Thermold (aka Thermelt) magazines. It seems that a good nine times out of ten (at least on the rifle range) stoppages in a weapon is cuased by crappy amgazines. > have not heard about the USMC > adopting the C7 or C8 rifles...might have to look into that. Royal Marines ahve opted for C7 and C7A1 to supplement their L85s in particular the SBS and the British Army may have opted for C7s and SAWs for their SAS. The US is firmly committed to the M16A2 even if it's evolutionary while trying to search for a magic rifle that's easy to shoot at both long and short ranges, reliable, and incorporates the latest electronics.. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 19:43:07 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: Canadian C7 vs M16 Rogue09 wrote: > > Not doubting your word Kurt...just hadn't heard about that's all...maybe > that explains the M-16A3 model I've been hearing about... Possibly- the US in particularly the US Army seeing relative merits of countries whose armies have scoped infantry rifles opted for a flat top M16A2. It does make mounting scopes easier.. The Elcan and SUSAT/SUIT both are around the 3-4 power range and allows users to pop off rounds a lot easier past 200, 300 yards for the obvious reasons. Still despite giving a better sight picture at longer ranges as well as a sight post that's easier to concentrate on under 25 meters low powered scopes have a serious disadvantage especially... the shooter has a very limited field of view on trying to put a sight post on a target becomes very difficult... No free lunch... Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:08:02 +1100 From: Peter Grining Subject: New MBT ammunition The following updates the tank ammo types up to the start of World War III. Ratings are as per v2.2. Some of the info is estimated, or fudged. Also included are types from the 80s and early 21st century rounds. The year of introduction (IOC) still means it takes a few more years to reach the troops. - --------------------------- Western Types - --------------------------- 105mm APFSDS Name IOC Penetration Notes Israel M111 78 100/90/80/60 Germany (DM-23) 80s Leopard 1 series, this was the round the Israelis used in the 1982 fighting in Lebanon Israel M413 83 110/100/90/70 Israel M426 E90s 120/110/100/80 Germany (DM-63) 90s Leopard 1 round Israel DU L90s 130/120/110/90 Estimated ratings. Not exportable 'Export' 80s 100/90/80/60 Canada (C-76), Turkey (FP-105) 'Export' 90s 110/100/90/70 Pakistan (L-64), Saudia Arabia (M1060) few 100s/1000s in 1991 'Export' L90s 120/110/100/80 Estmated ratings US M735 70s 70/60/50/30 APFSDS, most of Saudia Arabia's rounds in 91 US M735A1 80 80/70/60/40 DU round US M774 82 90/80/70/50 DU round US M833 86 100/90/80/60 DU round US M900 91 120/110/100/80 Only useable IPM1, DU round The v2.2 120mm range ratings apply to the 120L44 (barrel calibre). The Leclerc uses the 120L55 which has a range of 600m for APFSDS and 450m for other types. The M1A2 and Leopard 2 will receive the 120L55 later. (Only few in T:2000) 120mm APFSDS Name IOC Penetration Notes M829 85 120/110/100/80 DU round US M829A1 91 150/140/130/110 DU round US M829A2Mod1 94 160/150/140/120 DU US M829A2Mod2 96 170/160/150/130 DU round US M829A3 05 180/170/160/140 For Merc:2000 only in 2005ish, DU US 'Export' L90s 140/130/120/100 Ger DM13 80s 90/80/70/50 Early Leopard 2 round Ger DM33 87 120/110/100/80 Ger DM43 94 140/130/120/100 Export 'Arrow 95' Swiss, Sweden Ger DM53 96 150/140/130/110 Germany only Fr OFL120F1 94 140/130/120/100 Fr OFL120E1 95 150/140/120/110 Du round 120mm HEAT US M830 85 110C US M830A1 95 100C HEAT-DS, +50 metres range Ger DM12 80s 120C 120mm Others Israeli HE 90s As per 125mm Sweden also German HE 90s As per 125mm Pre-programmed to detonate over trenches 120mm 'Smart' rounds US M943 STAFF 98 60C Top attack, 80% hit, cancelled Merc:2000 timeline US M1007 TERM-KE 130/100 80% hit at all ranges, penetration for 3-7km, 7km+ TERM-KE not in service till 2005ish Israel has a laser-guided 120mm shell which may reach production soon. No idea of game stats. 120mm Rifled (UK) L23 APFSDS 84 90/80/70/50 Exported, Jordan also. Chieftain/Challenger 1 L26E1 Jericho 1 91 110/100/90/70 APFSDS, L23 with new charge bag L26A1 Jericho 2 91 120/110/100/80 APFSDSDU CHARM 3 98 150/140/130/110 APFSDSDU, Challenger 2 only - --------------------------------------- Eastern Types - --------------------------------------- 100mm APFSDS BM-6 68 70/60/50/30 Type 73 70s 80/70/60/40 Chinese round, also used by Pakistan Czech 70-80s 80/70/60/40 3BM-25 80s 90/80/70/50 Warsaw Pact round ? 90s 100/90/80/60 Estimated ratings 115mm APFSDS BR-5 68 80/70/60/40 ? 70s 90/80/70/50 ? 80s 100/90/80/60 Estimated ratings ? 90s 110/100/80/70 Estimated ratings, Egypt (BD/36-2) also The new (late 90s) 125mm 2A46M-4 (T-80UM2) has a range of 500 metres with AP. 125mm APFSDS 3BM-32 80s 110/100/90/70 DU round 3BM-42 87 100/90/80/60 Warsaw Pact use 3BM-42M 96 130/120/110/90 3BM-44 98 140/130/120/100 T-80UM2 only Chinese 90s 120/110/100/80 Pakistan also 125mm HEAT ZBK-21P 85 110C ZBK-29 93 120C, 160C v ERA ZBK-29M 98 140C, 180C v ERA - --------------------------------------- Export restrictions. The USA does not export DU rounds. Germany is prevented by law from having DU rounds. I'm not too sure about France or the UK. Russia probably wouldn't export DU, but in Merc:2000 they would sell anything. On the way are updated tank armour ratings. TERM-KE Tank Extended Range Kinetic Energy STAFF Smart Top Attack, Fire & Forget Peter Grining grining@webnet.com.au *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 01:13:33 +0000 From: dihtahn Subject: Small Arms (long) Small Arms Creation Tech Levels 5 1930 6 1950 7 1970 8 1990 9 2020 Tech level Designer's choice Powder Designer's choice Energy =94.35*Powder*(Tech level+3) Bullet Mass =Designer's choice Bullet Density =Designer's choice Bullet Dia =Designer's choice Bullet ln =(Bullet Vol/(?*(Bullet Radi2)))*1000 Bullet Vol =Mass/Bullet Density Bullet radius =Bullet Dia/2 Bullet Area =?*Bullet Radi2 Case Density =Designer's choice Case ln =Designer's choice Case Mult =Designer's choice Case Dia =Designer's choice Case Vol =((Case ln-0.2)*?*(Case Radi2))/1000 Case Radi =(Case Multi*Case Dia)/2 Case Mass =(((Case ln*?*((Case Radi+0.1)2))/1000)-Case Dia)*Case Density Cart Mass =Case Mass+Mass+Powder Cart Dia =Case Radi*Case Multi Cart Ln =Case ln+(Bullet ln/2) Cart Vol =Case Dia-(Powder+(Bullet Vol/2)) Est Velocity =(((21630*Energy)/Mass)0.5)*0.304785 Receiver Mass= (18-Tech level)*Action Multi*(Energy0.7) Action Type= Designer's choice Action Multi Type SS 0.3 R 0.3 BA 0.6 LA 0.75 SA 0.9 AB 1.1 FA 2.15 GT 4.3 Recoil Mod= 1-((Tech level-6)*0.02) Action Eff TL SS, BA, LA Others R 1 0.48 0.4 0.32 2 0.6 0.5 0.4 3 0.72 0.6 0.48 4 0.84 0.7 0.56 5 0.96 0.8 0.64 6 1 0.9 0.72 7 1 1 0.8 8 1 1 0.88 9 1 1 0.96 10+ 1 1 1 Clip type =Designer's choice Internal or External Clip= IF(Clip type="External",0.2,0.1) Number of Shots =Designer's choice Clip Mass= IF(Action Type="R",0.1666*Receiver Mass*Number of shots,Cart Dia*Number of shots*Clip) Barrel Dia =Designer's choice Barrel ln =norm (cm) ((400/(Tech level+3))*(((Energy/(160*(Tech level+3)))/2)0.5))/(Barrel Dia/10) Barrel Ln =Designer's choice Barrel Mass =(18-Tech level)*Barrel ln*Energy0.5*0.01*# of barrels # of Barrels Designer's choice Accessories =(Receiver Mass+Barrel Mass+Clip Mass-(Number of shots*Cart Mass))*0.15 Extra Wt (grams) =Designer's choice Weapon Wt =(Extra Wt+Accessories+Barrel Mass+Clip Mass+Receiver Mass)/1000 RoF Max =AB (Mass*Est Velo)/(Cart Mass*Cart Ln) =FA (Mass*Est Velo)/(Cart Mass*Cart Ln)*1.75 =GT (Mass*Est Velo)/(Cart Mass*Cart Ln)*1.75*(# of Barrels/2) RoF used =Designer's choice Config =Normal, Folded or Bullpup Weapon ln =Cart Ln*2+Barrel ln+IF Config "Normal"=30,IF"Folded"=10 Velocity Mod =MIN(((Barrel ln/Barrel ln norm)+1)/2,1.1) Cost =((((Energy*0.735)/Cart Dia)0.5)2)/0.333*Action Multi Weapon Name= Designer's choice Wt =Weapon Wt Mass =Bullet Mass Velo =Est Velo*Velo Mod Rof =Rof Used Dam =((Mass*Velo)0.333)/4.9292 Pen Close =((0.5*Mass*Velo2)/Bullet Area)/41150 Pen Med =((0.5*Mass*(Velo*(1-(1/Mass)))2)/Bullet Area)/41150 Pen Long =((0.5*Mass*(Velo*(1-(2/Mass)))2)/Bullet Area)/41150 Pen Extrm =((0.5*Mass*(Velo*(1-(3/Mass)))2)/Bullet Area)/41150 Blk =Weapon ln/20 Mag =Number of shots SS =((Velo*Mass)/(1000*Wt))*Recoil Mod Brst =Burst SS*Rof/2 Rng =0.001*(Velo2)*((Mass/1000)0.5) ARMOR If the location hit is covered by armor it is protected from some or all of the damage. Exploding rounds add 2D6 to the weapons penetration this is the penetration. For spaced and composite armor use 1D6 instead of 2D6. Subtract armor from penetration than divide by penetration. (P-A)/P Multiply the total damage by A, this damage penetrated the armor 1/4 of the remainder is taken as blunt trauma damage. Name Wt Ammo Mass Velo Rof Dam C M L E Blk Mag SS Brst Rng Beretta M92F 1.145 9mm P 8 390 SA 3 0.2 0 0 0 1 15 3 14 Mk 22 Md 0 1.181 9mm PSS 8 274 SA 3 0.1 0 0 0 2 8 2 7 M2HB 52.664 .50 BMG 42.9 930 5 7 3.6 3.4 3.2 3.1 8 105 1 2 179 CETMI Ameli 9.62 5.56 N 4 910 12 3 1.7 0.9 0.4 0.1 5 200 0 6 52 M-214 '6-Pac' 32.25 5.56 N 3.65 991 40 3 1.8 0.9 0.4 0.1 3 500 0 20 59 MG 3 11.946 7.62 N 9.8 820 13 4 1.8 1.4 1.1 0.8 6 50 1 6 67 M60 13.504 7.62 N 9.8 855 6 4 1.9 1.5 1.2 0.9 6 100 1 3 72 FN-MAG 13.844 7.62 N 9.8 840 8 4 1.8 1.5 1.2 0.9 6 100 1 4 70 M134 Minigun 35 7.62 N 9.8 869 60 4 2 1.6 1.2 0.9 4 1500 0 29 75 M1 Garand 4.507 .30-06 9.9 855 SA 4 1.9 1.6 1.2 0.9 6 8 2 73 Barret M82 17.5 .50 BMG 46.2 888 SA 7 3.5 3.3 3.2 3.1 7 5 2 169 M21 5.777 7.62 N 9.8 792 SA 4 1.6 1.3 1 0.8 6 20 1 62 M16A1 3.649 5.56 N 3.7 1000 8 3 1.9 1 0.4 0.1 5 30 1 4 61 M16A2 4.066 5.56 N 4 997 3 3 2 1.1 0.5 0.1 5 30 1 2 63 HK CAWS 5.299 12 g 00 3.5 350 2x12 2 0.1 0 0 0 4 10 0 7 HK CAWS 5.299 19.5 000 4.5 488 2x8 3 0.2 0.1 0 0 4 10 0 16 HK CAWS 5.299 19.5 Slug 36.3 488 2 5 0.4 0.3 0 0 4 10 3 1 45 Spectre M-4 3.793 9mm P 8 399 8 3 0.2 0 0 0 2 50 1 4 14 *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #50 ************************************