twilight2000-digest Friday, October 30 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 047 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems Big Errors in TW2000 Re: Big Errors in TW2000 Re: Twilight 200 setting problems Re: Twilight 2k setting problems Re: Twilight 200 setting problems German AR Re: Opinions Wanted Re: German AR Re: German AR Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #46 Re: German AR Re: Opinions Wanted Re: German AR Re: German AR Re: Twilight 200 setting problems Re: German AR ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:15:58 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems Fellow Twilighters, Since we are on the topic of what's wrong with TW2000 I thought that I would toss my rant into the mix. It has to do with the limp wristed skill proficiency charts in relation to the military occupations, specifically the SPECOPS MOS'. EXAMPLE: Let's take a quick look on the Green Machine's side of the fence. There is no such thing as a Ranger with no land navigation skills as indicated by first term skills. LAND NAVIGATION IS THE CORNERSTONE OF RANGER SKILLS, PERIOD. All Ranger candidates show up to Ranger school with a grasp on land nav or they promptly wash out. The same holds true for the Special Forces. Trust me. EXAMPLE 2: Now lets hop over onto the Navy's side of the fence. Namely, the skill proficiency of a SEAL fresh out of Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL trainning (BUD/S). In TW2000 this would be the equivelent of 1st term proficiency. The book says a swimming skill of "one"...HUH? That's funny...That's not a tenth of what's required of the STUDENT on ANY given day during BUD/S. He will often swim at least a mile on any given day. BEFORE GRADUATION EVERY BUD/S STUDENT MUST SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE A FIVE MILE OCEAN SWIM!...What did that book say? This is a small sample of the gross errors found in TW2000. I love the game but Frank Chadwick and company simply did'nt do their homework. I would get into Small Arms but that's a whole other body! -Best, Chris *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:17:22 -0500 From: negril@mindspring.com (C. Webb) Subject: Big Errors in TW2000 Fellow Twilighters, Since we are on the topic of what's wrong with TW2000 I thought that I would toss my rant into the mix. It has to do with the limp wristed skill proficiency charts in relation to the military occupations, specifically the SPECOPS MOS'. EXAMPLE: Let's take a quick look on the Green Machine's side of the fence. There is no such thing as a Ranger with no land navigation skills as indicated by first term skills. LAND NAVIGATION IS THE CORNERSTONE OF RANGER SKILLS, PERIOD. All Ranger candidates show up to Ranger school with a grasp on land nav or they promptly wash out. The same holds true for the Special Forces. Trust me. EXAMPLE 2: Now lets hop over onto the Navy's side of the fence. Namely, the skill proficiency of a SEAL fresh out of Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL trainning (BUD/S). In TW2000 this would be the equivelent of 1st term proficiency. The book says a swimming skill of "one"...HUH? That's funny...That's not a tenth of what's required of the STUDENT on ANY given day during BUD/S. He will often swim at least a mile on any given day. BEFORE GRADUATION EVERY BUD/S STUDENT MUST SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETE A FIVE MILE OCEAN SWIM!...What did that book say? This is a small sample of the gross errors found in TW2000. I love the game but Frank Chadwick and company simply did'nt do their homework. I would get into Small Arms but that's a whole other body! -Best, Chris *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:24:14 +1100 From: Damian Robinson Subject: Re: Big Errors in TW2000 I think you will find that if you look at most careers the skills are out of wack. As a private soldier I have farely good nav skills, and I've only had two terms in the reserves. I think the rules, while in many cases are incorrect, are balanced for gameplay. Its hard enough to get someone to play a plain jane grunt already! (think about it, how many PC's are Not Spec forces?) If you use 2.2 rules it gets a bit more balanced. Your snake eater with the high stats gets a much higher benifit from a one point skill. thats the benifit of the d20 system IMO. well thats my A$0.02 worth anyway cheers Damian *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:58:33 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems > From: Rogue09 > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 2:01 AM > > Yes...geiger counters would be churned out in small work shops, farmers > would need them to make sure their fields had not bee irradiated by > fall-out blown in...and then there's the ground water you'd have to > worry about...and of course we know about irradiated beef on the hoof > and other game animals...them's is NOT good eating... You could also make your own makeshift "Geiger counter" out of a plastic bucket, a paper gauge, a wire, some gold leaf, and silica gel (or some other drying agent). It's called the "Kearny Fallout Meter" which was designed by a Kresson Kearny of Oak Ridge Laboratories. Got the instruction in the back of the book, _Life After Doomsday...._ by Dr. Bruce D. Clayton. Hmmm, I know that could be a problem if you got fallout on the field used to grow crops. You would need to plant crops that are resistant to UV damage and will not suck up a lot of the radioactive isotopes out of the soil. Groundwater, for the most part, fallout particles tend to be kind of big so the ground should act as a filter for both the fallout and the isotopes if the aquifer is far enough down from the surface. The Earth is like a natural filter. However, I think the danger in water is Iodine-131 so you'd have to put a drop of iodine per gallon of water you plan to drink if it is suspect so your glands will not pick up the radioactive Iodine. The good think there is that Iodine has a half-life of only 8 days so most of it should be gone in a month or so. Animals, radiation has a way of making the meat rot as the animal is still alive. Yech!!! Not my type of meal. > Worse really...the dark ages were bad...REAL bad...but a lot of people > were capble of dealing with most small problems by themselves...today > however that is not the case...imagine how bad it would be without > power...we're too used to being able to get most things solved by hoping > into our cars and going to a store or hospital...imagine what happens > when that isn't possibile...looting, hoarding, riots, etc. Yeah, we are too used to our technical society and I'm afraid a lot of us will suffer for it. Plus too, a lot of people who live here in the U.S. and other socialized countries, such as in Europe, are used to the welfare system and a lot of government services. What if they are not available? Let's face it, there are certain elements that would get really cranky if the government check is not in the mail at the first of every month. Another interesting thing, what if all the inmates in jails ever got loose? Could you imagine a bunch of "Charlie Mansons" and "Jeff Dahmers" running about? They'd probably make good "target practice." B-) > And blood will fill the streets... Well, there is the answer I'm afraid. Chuck DE KA3WRW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:07:25 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Twilight 2k setting problems > From: Hound > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Twilight 2k setting problems > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 10:22 AM > Being a farmer is less than an enviable position along the contonment > fronts in Europe by the year 2000. Most farmers find that a majority of > their product is being "requisitioned" away by "friendly" troops, usually > without compensation (except protecting your remaining slim stocks from > other "friendly" and "hostile" "requisitions"). This leaves you with enough > grain to survive the winter and to plant a new crop in the new year. > > Away from the fronts things get a little less predictable. While many farms > can provide food and distilled alcohol fuels for the remaining small cities > and towns, many others are overrun by military units on the move who take > all that is edible, as well as the horses... and well get to horses in a > paragraph or two. The remainder are sadly the targets of marauder units who > are generally unskilled at farming and who require large amounts of food to > maintain their non-productive population - especially through the winter > months. That has happened to one family in Canada after the ice storms last winter where they had a generator for their home and the local government there took the generator so they could use it for a shelter while leaving them cold. I guess you'd have to add "blackout curtains" to the windows to help conceal it. My parents were children during WWII and they do remember having to use them. Many survival people advocate storing propane for fuel but don't use your grill outside, the smell of cooking food could make people think that their best shot at getting food is to go looking for you. It's like the old story, "The Ant and the Grasshopper" except the Grasshopper(s) will turn to the government, or what passes for one and ask them for their "help" in liberating food from the Ant(s). Picture this scenario, the Grasshopper(s) shows up with The Powers That Be so the Ant(s) barricades the door and reaches for his(their) AR-15, M1 Garand, AK-47, "Mr. Shotgun," etc. Then things go downhill real quick......... > Many other farms have been lost to the effects of the war - nuclear strikes > do wonders to crop-lands, leaving them littered with highly radioactive > tank husks... and the first time you try to plow a field that was the > target of a FASCAM strike you gain a new respect for modern weapons of > destruciton. I don't think that'll be a problem in the U.S., but in europe or any other war fronts, KaBoom!!!! Heck, they are still finding bombs and mines left over from WWII. Chuck DE KA3WRW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:12:29 -0500 From: "Chuck Mandus" Subject: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems > From: Ronald Aas > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: RE: Twilight 200 setting problems > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 11:45 AM > > It is quite usable for fuel too, exept for the coldest periods of the > winter. And as far as i know it doesn't cause any excess wear on equipment > either. Farming of rapsseed has been done for many years in sweden (a test > project) with good results. During very cold periods it must be blended with > a petrolium based product (parafin in norwegian...) to keep it from > freezing, just like diesel. For use as fuel it has shown to be as effective > as diesel. A friend of mine from the norwegian cavalery (leopard I tanks) > sad those engines could run on oldmost anything, including diesel, > petrol,parafin, rapsseedoil and vegetable oil (imagine smelling frenchfries > from a tank...). I don't know about the various vegetable oils but diesel fuel can be a problem sometimes. If it's cold out, in can gel on you. Even if it doesn't happen, vehicles could be hard to start. When my father was over in Korea (1955 - 57, sometime in there), they had small gasoline tanks on the trucks. When they started them up, they used the gasoline to warm them up, made them knock and ping like crazy. When they were running, they then switched over to diesel using a lever. In warmer climates, the fuel can get a yucky, algae like sludge if not stored right. That's a problem in places like Florida, Texas, or where it is very warm to hot. Chuck DE KA3WRW *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:24:36 -0600 From: Mitch Berg Subject: German AR What is the new German army assault rifle? I was under the impression it is the G41, but someone told me that it's another H&K variant. Anyone have the scoop? Thanks. Or should I say, Vielen Dank. Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (651)644-4192 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:38:44 EST From: Grimace997@aol.com Subject: Re: Opinions Wanted I consider 5th Infantry to be destroyed. Oh, I'll have little units here and there running around, maybe even a company or so getting their act together, but with the array of forces used against it, I don't think there was much hope of 5th Infantry coming out of that situation as a coherent combat unit. I consider 90% of the vehicles either destroyed, abandoned, or captured. The other 10% are in the posession of the survivors, and are the basic means by with they intend to make their way back to friendly lines. I don't consider the division being able to regroup enough to make an effective counterattack against the Soviets/Polish. So I tend to go more along with the map that says "elements of 5th Infantry", meaning that those groups of survivors (aka Player characters and other stragglers) running around are the "elements". The reference to 5th Infantry having all that stuff was 2 weeks earlier, and therefore represent what it was that got wiped out. At least, this is how I run it. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:10:57 +1100 From: Damian Robinson Subject: Re: German AR http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g36/g36.htm the above is a link to a site on the new German Assault rifle. have fun Damian *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 21:35:53 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: German AR Mitch Berg wrote: > > What is the new German army assault rifle? I was under the impression it > is the G41, but someone told me that it's another H&K variant. > > Anyone have the scoop? > The G-41 was never really adopted, the remtek site is a fairly good-also check here for some additional info and pictures... http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~johnhe/g36.html Until Later T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:59:04 -0700 From: Steven Charlton Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #46 Yeah - like about a year ago? I probably still have it around here somewhere. Steven Charlton OrrinLadd@aol.com writes: << Here - lurking quietly in digest mode. Anyone else here from Tucson? >> > > Hey, > > Were you the one that posted an Order of Battle to this list awhile > back? - -- Steven T. Charlton scharlto@rtd.com I don't recall installing this "General Protection Fault" Screen Saver *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:11:37 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: German AR Reading the beginning of this brings up a gripe I have always had about small arms in t2k: there is no rating for how reliable they are. Anyone who has Infantry Weapons of the World, take a look. Most of the weapons are the same or very similar. Besides name, the picture, and the ammunition used there is very little distinction. You end up with an AK-47 and an m-16 being almost the same. However, the AK is more reliable than the m-16. Here and there I have seen information on how often different weapons jam, but nothing good enough to implement throughout the game. There is such a system for vehicles-- why not small arms? Damian Robinson wrote: > http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g36/g36.htm > > the above is a link to a site on the new German Assault rifle. > have fun > Damian > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:31:41 -0800 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Opinions Wanted I never read Escape from Kalisz thoroughly, but in my current campaign (the only time Ive used it) part of the supporting personnel escape only to run into the rear of a Soviet unit. The akward fight that followed was interesting (two american pcs (a doctor and a former paper pusher) took a soviet pc (a mechanic) hostage, or tried to that is) until the Soviet unit's frontline returned from the battle. The American unit (composed of about five trucks and an APC command post) was captured except for the PCs who escaped with the mechanic's GAZ jeep. RC wrote: > Hey all, while some discussion is in fact happening now I would like to ask > for some opinions. > > What of the fate of the U.S. 5th Mechanized Division that was involved in > the last NATO offensive? > > The U.S. Army Vehicle Guide states that as of July 1st, 2000 the division > had 3000 personnel, 9 M1, 21 M1A1, and 12 M1A2 plus all the accompanying > lesser vehicles and arty. > The Rulebook states that this division was the spearhead for the German 3rd > Army's offensive into Poland. The Division then got smoked by advancing > Soviet units. The map in the rulebook shows that ELEMENTS of the 5th are > still lurking in Poland. > > Now, the Escape from Kalisz adventure states that the division lasted until > July 17th. > > So, what I'm wondering is what the other players/GM's think about this. I'm > especially interested in hearing about how other GM's have handled this (if > applicable). Could it be possible that the Division was routed, but after a > short period the Division's officers have managed to rally a sizable amount > back together? Or do the remaining elements turn marauder, as other units > have? Or do the elements remaining conduct "rear area diversionary actions"? > > Looking forward to hearing about this. > > RC > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:41:31 -0800 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: German AR Mitch Berg wrote: > > What is the new German army assault rifle? I was under the impression it > is the G41, but someone told me that it's another H&K variant. HK50 or the G36. Unlike previous HK rifles and subguns the G36 doesn't use the delayed blowback method of oepration going for a more conventional gas operated closed bolt design- most likely patterned after the AR18. In addition the G36 uses its own special translucent magazines. Sights are optical- 1.5 power with a battery illuminated reticle. It'll take a while for the Heer gets all the G36s to replace their G3A3s. mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in his great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them." Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest; Good Soldier Schweik, Jaroslav Hasek *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:44:42 +0000 From: Roger Stenning Subject: Re: German AR At 09:24 30/10/98 -0600, you wrote: >What is the new German army assault rifle? I was under the impression it >is the G41, but someone told me that it's another H&K variant. > >Anyone have the scoop? Mitch - I found out about this some time ago, and produced stats for T2K on my site. The general URL for my site is in the sig strip below. The rifle details are at: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/h_and_k_g36.html Later! _____________________________________________________________ Cheers, Roger ICQ UIN: 7742586 (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW; Ex-Corporal, Royal Military Police, British Territorial Army) MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It ALWAYS goes wrong. ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html _____________________________________________________________ *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:07:52 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: Twilight 200 setting problems > > I would have to disagree with the vegetable oil/heating thing. I think that > the majority of people would go back to the traditional methods of wood > heating. It is far easier to construct a wood burning stove from an old > metal drum to heat a moderate area and then gather some wood for the fuel > then it is for people to gather the material and process it for heating oil. > In a setting where time could be better spent on food production or > foraging, I think most would go the easiest route. I was thinking for use in areas where's there's large relocation camps, the forests would have already been picked clean and the people turning furniture into kindling...sorry for not mentioning that. In suppliments and adventures for Twilgiht you get the feeling that there were large groups that followed military units and settled around them. Sort of like camp followers in earlier wars going back to Napolean...You would have to do something to provide for them, just for the simple fact that the last thing you want is an angry mob knocking at your door. And having them handy gives you a large labor pool to draw from for anything the unit has in mind (fortifications, ditch digging, etc). > A surprising amount of food can be produced with a small amount of people. A > whole family (say six or seven people) that worked together, without > distractions such as outside jobs and school that are a normal part of our > life now, could devote all of their time and resources into sowing and > harvesting and preserving and could "put by" a large amount. Yes, a small group with the right ammount of knowledge, skill and luck can turn out enough food to feed themselves with a surplus if their lucky. But in Twilgiht you'd have to worry about neighbors or passer-by's noticing your large garden...so you'd have to protect it...which means diverting sometime to guard duties and night watches... My grandparents for years have do a large amount of canning of what comes out of their garden, but they went through the depression so that's no surprise. > > Don't forget a lack of good drivers. Well the railroad would become popular again, same for riverine shipping...just for the simple reason that in Twilgiht if you want to move food or anything else around you don't always have the gasoline for the cars and trucks. But coal, that's available in a lot of states...and there are museums that have old steam locomotives-some of which even work. > > Take into account though that people can be surprisingly quick to adapt to > different situations. Sure a lot of people would die, but those that could > adapt quickly and take advantage of the what the local environment has to > offer would be sure to offset some of the hardship. For example, the growing > interest in back to the land alternative lifestyle would allow some of the > people to have a greater knowledge of local flora and fauna and they would > be able to live of the land. I'm sure that they would teach others. A lot of people would die off...medical illness, lack of medicines to control pre-exsisting conditions, etc. You would have small "community colleges" opening up in most areas, where the teachers are local people...farming, firearms, medicine, etc would be sample classes. > > (Some more snipping) > > I really don't think that food would be hijacked by "survivalists". > Survivalists would have a supply of food in storage, with the means to > produce more. In fact, the survivalists would probably be the closest thing > to an "island" of stability in an otherwise chaotic area. It depends now doesn't it...Survivalists is often a term applied to group AFTER the fact...so it may be some bunch that wanted to hijack that food supply to set themselves upright. Doesn't make them survivalists in the classic sense...but most people have a low opinion of anyone outside the norms of society as it is... > As a follower of survivalist "philosophy" if it should be called anything, I > can testify that most families (it is mostly families that prepare) have a > six month to five year supply of food in storage. This is food that can > store for long periods. Some of it is commercially packed (like MRE's) but > the majority of it is in fact everyday regular foodstuffs, like dehydrated > vegetables that have been packed in nitrogen gas for long term storage. The > Mormon's, who practice a philosophy of preparedness have a basic four list > of foods that they encourage their members to store (up to five years worth > per person). This list consists of wheat (for making flour, for making bread > and a product called "gluten" which can be made into a meat substitute), > sugar or honey, powdered milk and salt. There are lots of other items that > will store for just as long a period as well. Believe it or not, a person > can survive on these four items alone. Doesn't mean they'll like it...but nutrionally you can survive off of it...like all those soliders in the Civil War with their hardtack...just make sure you store water and water purifiers...you need that as well. > Not only do survivalists store food, but they go out of their way to set up > their houses so that they are not reliant on energy (no electric or gas > heating). They may purchase generators for small amounts of electrical > energy, but it wouldn't be wasted on heating. They store non-hybrid seeds > and gardening tools. Some even have greenhouses on their property with > hydroponic set ups that are run off of solar charged batteries. They also > store medical supplies, arms and ammunition, books (technical mostly but I'm > sure there are others as well -- I have included classics in mine), tools > and other stuff that could be useful to them when they are cut off from > "civilization". The term there is getting off the grid... > Many survivalists are informed about emergency treatment and medicine, they > can live off the land if they had to, and a lot of them can produce what > they need to live a relatively comfortable life. Just don't ask some of them > about the gov't (hehe). Considering where I live that's standard... > > >Indeed...can you imagine the farmers in say Indiana or Ohio being told > >to send MORE of their crops to other areas (foreign or > >domestic)...especially as the war progressed...a lot of them might hold > >onto a bit extra as farmers did in Russia before Stalin killed a few > >hundred thousand of them to collectivize the works. > > I can agree with you about asking them to "send" their surplus to other > areas. I can't see that going to well. But they would be more than willing > to "trade" their surplus for items that they may need or want. > Farmers in a situation like Twilight would first make sure that they had a > supply of food for themselves to last until the next harvest. Then they > would keep some extra for sowing the next year's crop, as well as livestock > feed. Whatever is left is surplus and tradeable. Trade...well bartering would come back into vogue after the nukes fell-just out of sheer nesecity. If your not a brick layer, but you need a wall put up you'd do well to work out some arrangement with one to get the job done. Yeah-most people forget that a lot of the surplus gets used for livestock feed... > > >> You also have to remember that while the nukes did not hit the > agricultural > >> areas, the radiation might still drift around to that area. > Contaminated > >> water might not do much good to a crop of corn. > > Ground burst nukes are the highest threat. The radiation tends to linger. > Air bursts are certainly damaging, but the radiation has a short lifespan. > Water has a way of cleaning itself, unless it is standing water like a pond > or marsh or it is brackish. Not only that but the radiation will settle to > the bottom and if your careful (and if you have a large supply of Iodine) > you can use it as a drinking supply. But as you point out you need a LARGE supply of iodine to pruify the drinking water, GB's are the bigger threat also for the EMP effects as well. Radiation has a short lifespan but the problem is that it can be carried in the wind...so you really have to know the wind patterns for your area. > Ground burst nukes are bad. Even worse is chemical and/or biological > weapons. The effects of some of these weapons tends to make your day a very > bad one. Really bad is outbreaks of disease and sickness. Without the > medicine to counter them, they can and will wipe out a big area. GB's...well if your at ground zero don't worry...but the worse part is the disruption of machinery, eqipment and such. And really famine, fear, and disease will do in most large and small areas... > > >Yes...geiger counters would be churned out in small work shops, farmers > >would need them to make sure their fields had not bee irradiated by > >fall-out blown in...and then there's the ground water you'd have to > >worry about...and of course we know about irradiated beef on the hoof > >and other game animals...them's is NOT good eating... > > Geiger counters are good for detecting radiation, but to my knowledge they > don't measure the amount of radiation, and that is where the danger is. > People can safely be exposed to small amounts of radiation over time, but > they cannot be safely exposed to levels that can quickly accumulate to > dangers amounts. Same thing with animals. I don't think they give exact measurements, but then you don't nesecarrily need to know exact levels depending on what your using them for. There's a thing called a Rotegen meter, the one I have is a crude eye telescope that measure on a bar scale the ammount of "rads" per se out there... As for the animals, if it was really high levels they'd be dead...true enough...but I don't think most people would want to eat meat (etc) that had some background count in it...not unless they had too. > Fields can be decontaminated (although this is very hard to do and it's > really not in the ability of general population). The best thing that can be > done is to stay away from contaminated areas and let nature do it's work -- > or look for somewhere better to go. Not always possibile...looking for somewhere better to go that is. In Twilgiht's scenario they make refrences to riots started to perceived lack of food and outsiders pouring into areas. I seem to recall reading or seeing somehting about decontaminating fields, a pretty involved process...might be a service that MIL or CIVGOV might offer in Twilgiht to sway people to their cause. > > > That would be me (I guess, but not to the extent that you are supposing). Not me...I made the comments below... > > >Worse really...the dark ages were bad...REAL bad...but a lot of people > >were capble of dealing with most small problems by themselves...today > >however that is not the case...imagine how bad it would be without > >power...we're too used to being able to get most things solved by hoping > >into our cars and going to a store or hospital...imagine what happens > >when that isn't possibile...looting, hoarding, riots, etc. > > I think about these things everyday, and you are entirely correct. If it was > to get as bad as Twilight, many people around the world would die. First > from the effects of war. Then by diseases that are released from the dead > and starvation. Once the winter comes around, more would die from the > elements. Twilgiht makes notes to large numbers of people that died in unforseen hurricanes, floods, from cold winters, from lack of medical care, from lack of medicines, etc. And then you get the outbreaks of cholera, and others... > Likely in Twilight there are pockets of stable areas. Not all cities, towns, > villages and surrounding environs were subject to terrible effects. If power > was lost for an interminate amount of time, there would be initial panic and > chaos, but people would adapt. Many folks would find that one day they were > successful lawyers, bankers or professionals and the next they may find > themselves slogging through a half meter of pig shit so they can "earn" the > day's meal. Absolutly...the areas in Twilgiht that received the fewest (or none) nukes would be good places to head to. If you want a traditionally good production area in terms of food you head for the bread basket region, hopefully most people wouldn't buy into the popular myth and head for the mountains... > > >> But as you can see, in a country where the "stuff" has hit the fan, food > >> shortages will occur. > > > >And blood will fill the streets... > > Maybe for a short time. Food riots are nothing new. They have happened and > they will happen again. The question is, will it? Some areas have planned > for extreme changes and they are prepared for it. Some are arrogant enough > to believe that in this day and age, nothing bad can happen (except for > their favorite soap opera or sitcom to be cancelled). It's a fact that rural > communities have an advantage in coping with extreme changes, where large > metropolitan cities are virtual death traps. Like the book says, some areas > were hit hard and some were relatively unscathed. Sorry...the pesamist in me was thinnking beyond the food riots, local potentates, roaming bands of marauders, things of that nature would continune long after the nukes have fallen. > I guess anywhere that has a history of disaster will have a better chance of > coming out ok (unless they were smacked with a nuke or had seen military > action) because they have the experience to prepare ahead of time for bad > situations. The people know that they have to cooperate or they will sink > quicker. In areas with military units close by, there is less chaos because > they fear the troops. Fear the troops? Maybe...but in Twilgiht a lot of the local reserve and national guard units would have been used to suppliment the ranks of the military forces, so a lot of people would have friends and or family members with that unit. > Nice talkin' to you > > RC Until Later T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:18:54 -0700 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: German AR > > HK50 or the G36. Unlike previous HK rifles and subguns the G36 > doesn't use the delayed blowback method of oepration going for a more > conventional gas operated closed bolt design- most likely patterned > after the AR18. In addition the G36 uses its own special translucent > magazines. Sights are optical- 1.5 power with a battery illuminated > reticle. Let's see if I recall this correctly, the G50 monicker is used for weapons sold outside of Germany, and the G36 is used as the official German designation...same weapons though...They have a Carbine model, a standard Assault Rifle model, and a SAW...the things can take Beta C-Mag's (100 rounds) but not the standard US 30 round magazine... > It'll take a while for the Heer gets all the G36s to replace > their G3A3s. Well in a strict Twilight scenario it gets worse...this came out in the fall of 97...in small batches. Big time production is still on-going. So in Twilgiht you would only have a handfull of these weapons available, and talk about being rare! Until Later T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #47 ************************************