twilight2000-digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 041 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Boomer Re: New weapons Re: Boomer (long) Re: Boomer (long) Re: New weapons Re: Boomer Re: Version 3.0 rules Re: New weapons Re: New weapons Re: Boomer (long) Re: Boomer (long) Re: Version 3.0 rules Web page updated... Re: Version 3.0 rules Re: New weapons Re: New weapons Re: New weapons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:36:04 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Boomer It's not a PBEM, but a game I run with some friends in the Redwood City, CA area. J.W. Chen wrote: > could I play? I REALLY want to play T2K PBeM and I am running a PBeM called > Final Fantasy RPG PBEM . Go To > http://members.tripod.com/~yardsale1/index.html and please, if you have a > spot, will you take me in? > > Much regards, > Yardsale > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Vieth > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 2:43 AM > Subject: Boomer > > >For the past three months or so my gaming group (now up to 7 people) has > >been playing the adventure Boomer. Now the party is found the submarine > >stuck in the ice and attacked it. Unfortunately they did not surprise > >the defenders and the techs all got aboard the sub and have had about 5 > >minutes to try and get away with it. Now I'm wondering, what can they do > >to the sub? They originally planned to get on board the sub and shoot > >everyone in it, but if it goes underwater with them on board the > >situation will be much different. They used up all 5 mortar bombs > >attacking the camp, and have only 5 dynamite sticks. I'm not sure what > >they plan to do, with half of them shot up (hrmm they were able to get a > >minigun from the king of Norway and put it on their snowcat, sprayed the > >camp, walked right in and got cut down by a dshk and about 20 aks). > >Would it be possible to open a hatch from the outside, get inside and > >keep the boat from submerging? or could they damage a hatch and leave it > >open so that the boat would flood if it dove? Any other possibilities? > >How long will they have to do this? Heh, and the pcs being pcs when the > >king thanked them for helping with the narvik raid and said he would > >give them whatever they wanted they asked for 2 people knowledgable with > >nuclear reactors... > > > >-- > >Peter Vieth > >Fitek@ix.netcom.com > >IGZ Handle: Fitek > >ICQ UIN: 3660410 > >Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html > > > > > >*************************************************************************** > >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > > >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:43:51 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: New weapons Michael J. Domark, Jr. wrote: > Well any ways, as they were driving through the Nevada countryside looking > for their targets. Next they heard a single loud metallic on metallic > noise, and some brief sparks, that came from the front of the > vehicle, the driver lost control of the hummer, and rolled it. What I wanna know is HTF do you roll a hummer :) - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:32:12 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Boomer (long) Yes, sorry for not being too specific... the sub is Typhoon class, with a double hull. The major point is that it still has nukes on board. After these are taken off (in a port) I imagine it would be used to supply power, and not much else. With gunfire around I would expect the pcs to try and put dynamite on the hatch either at the stern or bow, definately not the sail. I guessed the only thing they could do to it really would be to foul the screws up (i think the typhoon has 2, which is a problem). I have no idea how large these are. Since its got ice around it now i suppose it would be possible to drive a snowcat into them (its a long walk back home though). The party consists of about 12 people right now, with probably 30 hand grenades among them, and 1 rpg with 2 rockets. I'm assuming that there was at least one tech with a diving suit. How useful this is in the Arctic during Autumn I don't know. As long on the sub can't go anywhere but down I'll accept it as a success. BTW, how long does it take to get the sub to dive? when the pcs attacked, the sub was still being freed from the ice. That task was almost done and most of the techs (probably 20 of them) had moved onto the sub, preparing to sail it back to Russia. It has been five minutes from when the first mortar round hit to the current time. Thanks for all the info-- most of my knowledge about subs comes from Harpoon, and I don't think Larry Bond ever expected a scenario like this :) Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: > Hi! - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:52:58 -0400 From: Alan Eaton Subject: Re: Boomer (long) Peter Vieth wrote: > Yes, sorry for not being too specific... the sub is Typhoon class, with a double > hull. The major point is that it still has nukes on board. After these are taken > off (in a port) I imagine it would be used to supply power, and not much else. > With gunfire around I would expect the pcs to try and put dynamite on the hatch > either at the stern or bow, definately not the sail. > > I guessed the only thing they could do to it really would be to foul the screws up > (i think the typhoon has 2, which is a problem). I have no idea how large these > are. Since its got ice around it now i suppose it would be possible to drive a > snowcat into them (its a long walk back home though). The party consists of about > 12 people right now, with probably 30 hand grenades among them, and 1 rpg with 2 > rockets. > That RPG should really mess up the props, aim for the prop bosses, and that should knock them all off the shaft.... at the very least they are not going anywhere. (Unless they have a catapilliar drive. ;) > I'm assuming that there was at least one tech with a diving suit. How useful this > is in the Arctic during Autumn I don't know. > Very, would you like to go skindiving in 20 degree water? :) > As long on the sub can't go anywhere but down I'll accept it as a success. BTW, > how long does it take to get the sub to dive? when the pcs attacked, the sub was > still being freed from the ice. That task was almost done and most of the techs > (probably 20 of them) had moved onto the sub, preparing to sail it back to > Russia. It has been five minutes from when the first mortar round hit to the > current time. Don't know, maybe as little as 3 minutes. But most importantly, Whats the state of the reactor? It takes about a hour to get the steam up in one of those, and thats if you have a full crew and the reactor is in great shape. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:04:06 -0500 From: "Michael J. Domark, Jr." Subject: Re: New weapons I'll tell you HTF they rolled a hummer, The driver was traveling at maximum speed on a dry dirt road, when the slug from the rail gun tore into the hummers engine compartment, which more or less blew apart the engine. the driver was more or less surprised, giving him a -1 modifier to his roll for his driving skill. The player needed an 11 to succeed in controlling the vehicle at the speed he was traveling at. He rolled a 1, which is a catastrophic failure (10 lower than what he needed to succeed). The end result, the slug form the rail gun, hit the hummer, destroying the engine, the driver not expecting this to happen, panicked. Thus ended up rolling the vehicle. I hope this cleared things up. Peter Vieth wrote: > > Michael J. Domark, Jr. wrote: > > > Well any ways, as they were driving through the Nevada countryside looking > > for their targets. Next they heard a single loud metallic on metallic > > noise, and some brief sparks, that came from the front of the > > vehicle, the driver lost control of the hummer, and rolled it. > > What I wanna know is HTF do you roll a hummer :) > -- > Peter Vieth > Fitek@ix.netcom.com > IGZ Handle: Fitek > ICQ UIN: 3660410 > Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html > > *************************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line > 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. - -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Der Mann Hat Einen Grossen Geist Und Ist So Klein Von Taten" ----------------------------------------------------------- The spirit of man is great, How puny are his deeds. -Anne Frank- Check 6 Member of VSQDN-541 Strike Force Mike Maj. "Milk Man" Alpha Squad, 2nd Wing, Ldr. ICQ-UIN: 7485255 ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7485255 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:16:13 -0500 From: "J.W. Chen" Subject: Re: Boomer oh ok.....not a game.......well, do you know where I could purchase a copy of the system online? So difficult to find............ - -----Original Message----- From: Peter Vieth To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 6:57 PM Subject: Re: Boomer >It's not a PBEM, but a game I run with some friends in the Redwood City, CA >area. > >J.W. Chen wrote: > >> could I play? I REALLY want to play T2K PBeM and I am running a PBeM called >> Final Fantasy RPG PBEM . Go To >> http://members.tripod.com/~yardsale1/index.html and please, if you have a >> spot, will you take me in? >> >> Much regards, >> Yardsale >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Peter Vieth >> To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM >> Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 2:43 AM >> Subject: Boomer >> >> >For the past three months or so my gaming group (now up to 7 people) has >> >been playing the adventure Boomer. Now the party is found the submarine >> >stuck in the ice and attacked it. Unfortunately they did not surprise >> >the defenders and the techs all got aboard the sub and have had about 5 >> >minutes to try and get away with it. Now I'm wondering, what can they do >> >to the sub? They originally planned to get on board the sub and shoot >> >everyone in it, but if it goes underwater with them on board the >> >situation will be much different. They used up all 5 mortar bombs >> >attacking the camp, and have only 5 dynamite sticks. I'm not sure what >> >they plan to do, with half of them shot up (hrmm they were able to get a >> >minigun from the king of Norway and put it on their snowcat, sprayed the >> >camp, walked right in and got cut down by a dshk and about 20 aks). >> >Would it be possible to open a hatch from the outside, get inside and >> >keep the boat from submerging? or could they damage a hatch and leave it >> >open so that the boat would flood if it dove? Any other possibilities? >> >How long will they have to do this? Heh, and the pcs being pcs when the >> >king thanked them for helping with the narvik raid and said he would >> >give them whatever they wanted they asked for 2 people knowledgable with >> >nuclear reactors... >> > >> >-- >> >Peter Vieth >> >Fitek@ix.netcom.com >> >IGZ Handle: Fitek >> >ICQ UIN: 3660410 >> >Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html >> > >> > >> >*************************************************************************** >> >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >> >> >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. >> > >> >> *************************************************************************** >> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >> 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > > > >-- >Peter Vieth >Fitek@ix.netcom.com >IGZ Handle: Fitek >ICQ UIN: 3660410 >Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html > > >*************************************************************************** >To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line >'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. > *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: Version 3.0 rules - ---Janne Kemppi wrote: > > One thing that has not received much attention (in US media) is that there are various degrees of freedom between central power and areas in Russia. Some parts like Karelia practically do always what central government want to while others Tatarstan (sp!) are practically autonomous. In some areas the local leaders >have allready started their own ways to try to fix economic crises (like Murmansk has been begging economic help from West) and have effectually negotiated their relations with Moskow. > I'm sure the central government isn't very happy about that, but what can they do? Checnya (sp?) proved that they can't control their own people with use of force. I guess it's possible that Russia (except for the Moscow region) could cease to exist as a political entity in the next few years. Mike _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Cook Subject: Re: New weapons - ---Rogue09 wrote: They have a round for > the RAW which has been dubbed by their work team as "the flying claymore", then there's the entire OICW Program (Objective Infantryman Combat Weapon) here in the States-a 5.56mm rifle with a 20mm grenade launcher. The grenade launcher is purportedly accurate out to 1000 > meters... > Yeah, they had a big article in Popular Mechanics in August on the OICW. The 20mm isn't a grenade launcher per se, it fires bursting ammunition that can be set to go off at a certain distance, allowing it to punch through sheet metal and the like before bursting. It is an over/under design with the 20mm on top of the 5.56mm. You should check out the article, it is quite interesting. BTW what's the deal on that 'flying claymore?' Mike _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:51:41 -0600 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: New weapons > Yeah, they had a big article in Popular Mechanics in August on the > OICW. The 20mm isn't a grenade launcher per se, it fires bursting > ammunition that can be set to go off at a certain distance, allowing > it to punch through sheet metal and the like before bursting. It is an > over/under design with the 20mm on top of the 5.56mm. You should check > out the article, it is quite interesting. I figure with the info in Janes and the info from the two companies homepages I should be set, yeah it's not quite a grenade launcher but what else do you call it to avoid confusion? That one from the PM articel, I think that was the AAI model, there's a company called Alliant TechnoSystem working in conjunction with H&K...so they have their model as well...both are pretty weird looking...but one wonders if fiscal priorities in the military will kill the program (just as they have called other programs before). > BTW what's the deal on that 'flying claymore?' Imagine a 140mm round flying at you with a 3 to 4 pound warhead that is designed to spew AP shrapnel as well as damage buildings...not exactly anyhting I want to go anywhere near...That is if the RAW program gets funded and going...the possibilities of that weapon gives the average grunt man-portable artillery with a variety of options. > > Mike > _________________________________________________________ T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:45:52 +0200 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Boomer (long) Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, doru@ftc-i.net produced: > That RPG should really mess up the props, aim for the prop bosses, and that should > knock them all off the shaft.... at the very least they are not going anywhere. > (Unless they have a catapilliar drive. ;) Good point, but unluckily the screws will be under water, very completely under water if I am right, I don't know if a RPG won't just explode on contact with the water surface. Would you as a tech not try to build an ersatz-screw to get home? Even if it's not good and can only be used at slow speeds and takes a day or 2 to make ... if they still have the shaft they might make it. > Don't know, maybe as little as 3 minutes. But most importantly, Whats the state of > the reactor? It takes about a hour to get the steam up in one of those, and thats if > you have a full crew and the reactor is in great shape. Crew size does not slow the heating as long as you have just sufficient crew to drive the reactors (it has 2) ... but they would have them running (helps deicing with hot water). Anyway, they'd survive much more than one hour without the reactor, there's enough oxygen in the air inside. All they have to do is get under water ... no need for (much) electrical power nor steam. - -Wolfgang - -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:37:32 +0200 From: Wolfgang Weisselberg Subject: Re: Boomer (long) Hi! Trying to kill the keyboard, Fitek@ix.netcom.com produced: > Yes, sorry for not being too specific... the sub is Typhoon class, with a double > hull. The major point is that it still has nukes on board. After these are taken Let's see hat I know of the Typhoon: The game SSN-21 Seawolf says (I told you I was no expert, and that source is what I have about the Typhoon Class): Typhoon Class Shortly after the SS-N-18 missile was developed, enabling Soviet subs to target the major US cities while operating in Soviet-controlled waters, the SS-N-20 Sturgeon, with a range of 4,500 nautical miles, was introduced. No longer did the Soviet ballistic submarines have to be designed around speed and performance. The Typhoon, the first of the new generation, was quite a different animal than even its most immediate predecessors, the Yankee and the Delta. It is the largest submarine in the world, not because of its length, but because of its unique hull design. Two pressure cylinders run the length of the sub and join a third located at the base of the fin. All three pressure cylinders are housed in an outer casting. Each of the two long cylinders houses a reactor which turns a screw, enabling the Typhoon to continue operations even if one reactor has shut completely down. The Typhoon carries 20 SS-N-20 missiles and has four torpedo tubes. > off (in a port) I imagine it would be used to supply power, and not much else. Depends: in a world with few combat capable ships around, a sub can be a terrific weapon. It's just a very expensive weapon; probably far too expensive to be just a power generator. Anyway, I'd probably not remove the missiles, at least not all: it's bound to be safer on/under water than on land, these days, at least if you are just a bit careful: at least the enemy can't capture the nuclear missiles if he destroys them. > With gunfire around I would expect the pcs to try and put dynamite on the hatch > either at the stern or bow, definately not the sail. Well ... Who is shooting and where? I thought the situation was: The defenders were killed, the party got maimed through stupidity, the techs retreated into the sub (not being good fighters). If there are any defenders they'd probably sweep the sub with light weapons (no MGs) if the PC's get visible. They'd even use MG's but would try hard not to hit the conning tower to avoid damaging the sub. > I guessed the only thing they could do to it really would be to foul the screws up > (i think the typhoon has 2, which is a problem). I have no idea how large these Yes, looking at that source, they have 2, and 2 separate reactors as well. It may be able to survive severe damage and breaching to one of the 3 pressure hulls. > are. Since its got ice around it now i suppose it would be possible to drive a A meter in diameter would be small, IMHO. > snowcat into them (its a long walk back home though). The party consists of about Yes, but you'd hit either the tower (which would not stop them) or just scratch one of the hulls --- that is, if the ice is thin so the *innner* hull are actually above the ice line[1]. And the outer hull is usually strong enough to bash through ice packs ... [1] remember the sub may be just 1 or 2 meters above the water line, execept the tower. > 12 people right now, with probably 30 hand grenades among them, and 1 rpg with 2 > rockets. So it's not really much of explosives they can muster. The RPG (and the grenades) might be useful if they are AT-capable. Submarine decks and hulls are not armored in the conventional sense, they are tough and strong and pressure resistant, but a well placed AT-grenade or a few _might_ be able to blast a hole. OTOH so might a torpedo or a depth charge. Anyway, the'd have to aim at a spot mostly perpendicular to them, in other words, they may have to climb up a close hill or on the tower itself to fire downwards --- and probably risk getting the blast back into their faces > I'm assuming that there was at least one tech with a diving suit. How useful this > is in the Arctic during Autumn I don't know. Well, the water is obviously 0 degrees Celsius at the surface (ice) and warms up a couple of meters below to 4 degrees Celsius[2]. So while the water is warmer than the air (it must be quite chilly: it's bound to be windy and the temerature will be below 0, so anyone will have to wear warm clothes) you'd loose much of your body warmth very fast. You can survive about 15 minutes in freezing water. So you definitely need a suit to work. [2] That's the anomaly that water's most dense at 4 degrees Celsius, which means that fishes can survive even frozen lakes because there's water closer to the bottom, that ice swims and that frozen waper pipes burst ... and that we humans actually exist :-) > As long on the sub can't go anywhere but down I'll accept it as a success. BTW, The problem is: How clever and how resureful are the techs? If I was them and not in panic (someone must have presented sketchy plans what to do in an attack situation) I'd dive, no matter what. Rather a fighting chance against the water than no chance against bullets ... and if we loose they won't get the missiles either! Once I am down I'll see if we can move the sub a bit (if there is some water stream it should be enough) so just dropping grenades down the hole won't hit us. Then I'd get someone out (who'd be succeptible to the grenades else) to check the damage and repair what he can. Finally I'd either get under way or just drift for a long time before trying to bash through the ice for later repairs --- hopefully far enough from the PCs. However that would be risky if I had just one or 2 tries and no power (both nuclear reactors broken) to generate more oxygen and pressured air[3]. [3] electrolysis will generate that, even if it takes long --- I'd not care if the food does not run out. > how long does it take to get the sub to dive? when the pcs attacked, the sub was > still being freed from the ice. That task was almost done and most of the techs > (probably 20 of them) had moved onto the sub, preparing to sail it back to > Russia. It has been five minutes from when the first mortar round hit to the > current time. Let's see ... A typical diesel/electric U-Boat WWII vintage could dive from normal over water operation to everything under water and diving fast in just under 15 to 20-30 seconds, depending on the vessel and it's speed (you can dive faster if you go faster). Now this sub is understaffed and the techs are probably not trained on this peculiar sub. They'd take longer, I'd say, about 1-1.5 minutes, more if they are confused, paniced or haven't yet familarized themself with the sub[5]. They'll probably have no electrical power yet[4], but all they have to do is open the correct valves for the air tanks. If the sub has been lying there for a long time people can indeed be lucky the sub didn't get crushed. [4] OTOH the sub has battery banks, even if they are small, and the techs will have *and* find on board battery driven lamps. So even with (mostly) drained batteries ... they will see what they are doing. Anyway, recharging the batteries and checking/warming up the reactors is the first theing I would do: You will want to have electrical power inside and you will want to use the heat from the reactors for boiling hot water to remove the ice. [5] which is something that almost any tech will want to do first, if only to stare in awe at that marvellous piece of technic. OTOH I'd send sailors, or if aviable, submariners to that mission as techs. They will be soldiers as well and probably quite unshakable and courageous and disciplined, especially if they have been in combat (getting depth charges etc.) on a sub. German 'UBootfahrer' (submariners) tended to be that way, especially late in WWII when some had to fight on land. Once they are under water most actions by the PCs won't hurt them ... so either the PC's do permanent, unrepairable damage or stop them from diving. Even if they jam the rudder(s?) hard to one side the techs could create a charge to blow it of if it's not repairable, (Torpedoes = explosives) or take a metal saw to cut it away and steer with the screws. - -Wolfgang - -- PGP 2 welcome: Mail me, subject "send PGP-key". If you've nothing at all to hide, you must be boring. Unsolicited Bulk E-Mails: *You* pay for ads you never wanted. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:51:24 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Version 3.0 rules At 09:22 AM 9/19/98 -0700, Michael Cook wrote: > > I'm sure the central government isn't very happy about that, >but what can they do? Checnya (sp?) proved that they can't control >their own people with use of force. I guess it's possible that Russia >(except for the Moscow region) could cease to exist as a political >entity in the next few years. > Chechnya proved that they can't keep ahold of a territory that explicitly wants independence and is willing to fight a war over it--while on the one hand the chances are slim that they'd try another invasion in similar circumstances, on the other hand other regions REALLY don't want to end up like Chechnya, which was basically flattened and still hasn't achieved internation recognition--and Russia just might try it again if they thought many other regions would try to secede. As for the other regions, they want as much independence as they can get, and some of them want something they vaguely term "sovereignty", but I don't think they really want to deal with being completely indepdent, most of them landlocked inside this huge continent, and having to provide for their own armies, currencies, and so on. Scott Orr *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:33:19 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Web page updated... Well I've updated my web pages again, adding more tanks and some civilian cars and an armoured car to other, and some other stuff I've forgotten about... That should be it for a while, I've spent too much time on this :) - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:52:14 +0300 (EDT) From: Janne Kemppi Subject: Re: Version 3.0 rules > At 09:22 AM 9/19/98 -0700, Michael Cook wrote: > > > > I'm sure the central government isn't very happy about that, > >but what can they do? Checnya (sp?) proved that they can't control > >their own people with use of force. I guess it's possible that Russia > >(except for the Moscow region) could cease to exist as a political > >entity in the next few years. > > > Chechnya proved that they can't keep ahold of a territory that explicitly > wants independence and is willing to fight a war over it--while on the one > hand the chances are slim that they'd try another invasion in similar > circumstances, on the other hand other regions REALLY don't want to end up > like Chechnya, which was basically flattened and still hasn't achieved > internation recognition--and Russia just might try it again if they thought > many other regions would try to secede. > > As for the other regions, they want as much independence as they can get, > and some of them want something they vaguely term "sovereignty", but I > don't think they really want to deal with being completely indepdent, most > of them landlocked inside this huge continent, and having to provide for > their own armies, currencies, and so on. This is indeed true. There is no sign of regions wanting real independence but rather of brokering themselves "better deal" with central government. Usually this means keeping larger shre of collected tax money for themselves. Since so much of economy is now barter, also supplies like food for example are hoped to stay in areas of surplus or for example rights to sell oil on their own (for their own income). This is what I see now is happening. This does drive Russia towards more and more towards federation of autonomous regions. We could indeed see some kind of political resettlement where regions could become highly autonomous and having very different economical agreements with Central government while under flag of Russia. This could be similar that many now independent republics have dome defence related agreements with Russia. Ie. we could see Central government losing more and more of its internal powers moving to regions with common security and foreign policy agreements for external relations. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:02:31 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: Re: New weapons At 04:43 PM 9/18/98 -0700, you wrote: >Michael J. Domark, Jr. wrote: > >> Well any ways, as they were driving through the Nevada countryside looking >> for their targets. Next they heard a single loud metallic on metallic >> noise, and some brief sparks, that came from the front of the >> vehicle, the driver lost control of the hummer, and rolled it. > >What I wanna know is HTF do you roll a hummer :) Put it on a steep enough incline. My buddy is a Corpsman, formerly stationed at MCAS El Toro with the Black Knight Squadron (yes..that one). He was getting his refresher course in driving a HMMWV with a Gunny and another marine along for the ride. They were taking it up this mountain side trail, used all the time for training, the angle down got to steep, and just as they Gunny said "Now don't roll this damn thing Corpsman." it began to spin and roll 3 times before coming to a rest. His five point harness busted open too and through him from the vehicle. (Had to talk to the contractors about that one). Despite a few bumps and bruises, all including my friend were fine. The moral of the story is, even if you say it can't happen, it will. Rob. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:42:26 -0600 From: Rogue09 Subject: Re: New weapons > Put it on a steep enough incline. My buddy is a Corpsman, formerly > stationed at MCAS El Toro with the Black Knight Squadron (yes..that one). Black Knight Sqn eh? Interesting to note that in the Navy & Marine Corps Sqn List for FY 97 they do list a Black Knight Sqn...HMM-264...they fly CH-46E helios and are stationed out of MCAS New River. Don't you just hate when Hollywood bumps chopper pilots up to fighter jocks (refering to Independence Day)...Can anyone confirm that El Toro is being closed or not? Everywhere I see in the Sqn List it seems like anything stationed at El Toro is being shipped out to other posts...But Toro is a rather large facility on the cost to just close all at once-but then what do politicans care eh? > He was getting his refresher course in driving a HMMWV with a Gunny and > another marine along for the ride. They were taking it up this mountain > side trail, used all the time for training, the angle down got to steep, > and just as they Gunny said "Now don't roll this damn thing Corpsman." it > began to spin and roll 3 times before coming to a rest. His five point > harness busted open too and through him from the vehicle. (Had to talk to > the contractors about that one). Despite a few bumps and bruises, all > including my friend were fine. The moral of the story is, even if you say > it can't happen, it will. Murphy is validated once again...just when you think nothing can go wrong you suddenly find yourself in DEEP DEEP trouble...Generally with a couple witnesses who tell everyone the next time your sitting around a camp fire or in a bar... > > Rob. Until Later T.R. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:03:44 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: Re: New weapons At 12:42 PM 9/20/98 -0600, you wrote: >> Put it on a steep enough incline. My buddy is a Corpsman, formerly >> stationed at MCAS El Toro with the Black Knight Squadron (yes..that one). > >Black Knight Sqn eh? Interesting to note that in the Navy & Marine >Corps Sqn List for FY 97 they do list a Black Knight >Sqn...HMM-264...they fly CH-46E helios and are stationed out of MCAS New >River. At the time, which was perhaps three years ago, maybe four, that was what he called the F/A-18 squadron he served with. He went on his fleet tour the next year and transferred to Great Lakes this year. It wouldn't surprise me of a name change considering the number of squadrons that have been disbanded over the past five years. We had a running joke going between us when ID4 was released. >Murphy is validated once again...just when you think nothing can go >wrong you suddenly find yourself in DEEP DEEP trouble...Generally with a >couple witnesses who tell everyone the next time your sitting around a >camp fire or in a bar... Get a group of soldiers or exsoldiers together, and you can't help but hear a dozen stories of things going horribly wrong, comical or tragic. I guess it's the nature of the business. Rob. *************************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the line 'unsubscribe twilight2000' as the body of the message. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #41 ************************************