twilight2000-digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 031 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Stability in areas Re: Stability in areas Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Oops Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Oops RE: twilight2000-digest V1998 #29 Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #30 Apocalyptic Exchange Re: Cash on start Oops Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #30 RE: Apocalyptic Exchange ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:45:26 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Stability in areas Thank you for getting it. Grimace997@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-23 19:07:04 EDT, you write: > > << > Well, I think you're demonstrably wrong. In Bosnia, during the war, people > were not working; they were not even growing food in most places. And most > males were fighting--indeed, the unemployment rate in Bosnia, after > demobilization of the armies, is now something like 80%. > > This is NOT what the places you mention are like--even in Warsaw, which is > in the worse shape, the vast majority of the population is engaged in > farming or other produtive pursuits, meaning that you have virtually full > employment. > > Scott Orr >> > > I think you missed his point. In places like Kalisz and Warsaw, things are > still very much unstable and volatile. Kalisz, for example was the site for > the massacre of 5th Infantry division. This is not stable and the war is > definitely NOT over there! Sure, in some areas it is stable, but there are > also a lot of other areas that have such nasties as nuclear radiation, > marauders, combat...whatever! I've played just enough Twilight to make me > realize that there are really very few areas that are totally stable. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:48:52 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Stability in areas Some good points are made here. However, if I was at a subsistence-farming level economically, I would only take gold if the potential for return was pretty great. If I lived near Krakow or another city with an intact economy (of sorts). Otherwise, you are simply trying to buy food to feed my children with a pretty yellow metal I have no use for. Argue all you want about "peoples' perception of intrinsic value"... my kids come first everytime. Screw the gold. Scott David Orr wrote: > At 07:19 PM 6/23/98 EDT, Grimace997@aol.com wrote: > > >I think you missed his point. In places like Kalisz and Warsaw, things are > >still very much unstable and volatile. Kalisz, for example was the site for > >the massacre of 5th Infantry division. This is not stable and the war is > >definitely NOT over there! Sure, in some areas it is stable, but there are > >also a lot of other areas that have such nasties as nuclear radiation, > >marauders, combat...whatever! I've played just enough Twilight to make me > >realize that there are really very few areas that are totally stable. > > > No, I didn't miss his point; however, as bad as things are in those places > you mention, economically at least Bosnia was worse during the war--NO one > was working. After a while, when hte lines stabilized, they had a measure > of security, but most people were either in the army or living as refugees > off relief supplies. This isn't really true of even Kalisz--in Kalisz, > it's true that things are being shaken up at the time when the campaign > starts, but OTOH things have been stable there for some time before, and > things quickly get back to (post-holocaust) normal afterwards. > > In post-WWIII Poland, there are no relief supplies, and no hope that NATO > is going to come in and end the war and send in aid. People have to farm > if they want to eat, which means that, despite marauders and a certain > amount of political instability, economic activity is going to continue. > > It's true that peasants might not be willing to trade for gold (or even > barter for that matter) in the thick of the battle, but such conditions are > not typical of what characters will be experiencing for the rest of the > campaign. > > Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:56:22 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Cash on start You mis-spelled your name. Hmm.... Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-23 01:59:23 EDT, you write: > > << He'll eventually tire and leave. >> > > I've been her for over a year, I just flare up every once and a while like > hemroids. > As for the swedish thing yes I have. He raised me. > > -Mookey boy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:03:16 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Cash on start Sheesh, you Swedes are all alike ;-) (That was a joke, please don't flame me) - -Jeremy M. Semper Fidelis Kenth Eriksson wrote: > ><< He'll eventually tire and leave. >> > > > > > >I've been her for over a year, I just flare up every once and a while > like > >hemroids. > >As for the swedish thing yes I have. He raised me. > > > >-Mookey boy > > Oh! I see. Lots of rage in ya then. My stepfather, who is also Swedish, > is an alcoholic. I know where you're comin' from. > > Kenth > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:29:18 EDT From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-23 00:22:33 EDT, you write: << Dude, you should be in stand-up. >> don't encourage that youth. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:31:33 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: Re: Cash on start Hruggek wanted me to keep it on the list (novel concept), so here's my response, futile as it may be. I'm not on any flavor crack that I know of, and his contention that marauding is the norm for barter and that Twilight campaigns, in my opinion, is about as juvenile as they come. If you want to run a Twilight campaign like that, fine, but for even the most simple minded, I could see the desire to keep it up fading quickly. As to your mentioning that you get slammed five times harder than anyone else on the list, well, when you ask people what flavor crack they're smoking and then go on to attack them instead of just their position, you figure it out. Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:55:31 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-24 08:57:57 EDT, you write: << Perhaps we should separate this whole money/barter/stability question into two categories... near military units and not near units >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:07:33 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start Oops In a message dated 98-06-24 08:57:57 EDT, you write: << Perhaps we should separate this whole money/barter/stability question into two categories... near military units and not near units >> Ok hold on, just a little note here I like the idea and all but isn't that six categories? Anyways, why does the area from a military unit make a diffrence? Couldn't a soldier go out and shoot children and burn down farm houses until he was payed, or a whole squad for that. They could "monitor" an area and force the civis of that are to pay them for protection, aside from what the military gives them? You guys seem to think everyone is hugs and flowers. Screw all that hippy stuff. If a soldier wants something and he has the ability to take it he will. Right or wrong is not a thing here, if you want it and the only thing standing between you and that thing is Joe the turnip picker, Martha his wife, and his kids Toady and Jezabell then he could blow ol' Joes head off with a Caw and gut poor martha bury them in a shallow grave then go inca on the kids by hanging them upside down from town square taking his bowie knife and puncturing the belly button and cutting down to the sternum, letting them bleed to death and stare at their own intestines. Then I would like to see someone in town try to not want to pay, and if someone else didn't want to then they would have to be an example as well. - -Monkey boy the raindeer sausage. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:08:51 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-24 09:05:10 EDT, you write: << You mis-spelled your name. Hmm.... >> Did I? - -Stinks Boy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:21:41 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-24 19:34:16 EDT, you write: << I'm not on any flavor crack that I know of, >> Do you drink cough syrup for fun? <> Ever seen some of the shit U.S. troops did in Veitnam? <> Umm ok, how about that on time when I was called racist for my nickname? Or how about the fact that even when I made good points they weren't even acknowledged? Hmmm seeing as how maurading is a very real thing in wars by troops, and so is other forms of self improvment by kicking the crap out of the average joe, then why not discuss that? Its happend in every war thats lasted long periods of time, If you have to sit there and take shit twenty four seven then eventually you are gonna want to get what you deserve, and in twilight who pays you, the goverment? Nope, nobody does, so then why the fuck are you putting your ass on the line? To save a country thats in worse shape than the writers of ALF? Santa Claus? The Easter bunny? Who, you hae to get something and the smile you get from a young girls face is cool and all but when some fucker who didn't even no her blew her into compost with a mortar aimed at your base then it doesn't phase you anymore after a while. When you see death all around then you wonder when will your time be, do I want to spend it busting my ass for sergant saladtosser or do I want to have fun beforte my time comes? - -Monkey the other white meat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:50:46 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Cash on start what a surprise, MB. Rob Beck wrote: > Hruggek wanted me to keep it on the list (novel concept), so here's my > response, futile as it may be. I'm not on any flavor crack that I know of, > and his contention that marauding is the norm for barter and that Twilight > campaigns, in my opinion, is about as juvenile as they come. If you want to > run a Twilight campaign like that, fine, but for even the most simple > minded, I could see the desire to keep it up fading quickly. > As to your mentioning that you get slammed five times harder than anyone > else on the list, well, when you ask people what flavor crack they're > smoking and then go on to attack them instead of just their position, you > figure it out. > > Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:58:04 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Cash on start Oops Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-24 08:57:57 EDT, you write: > > << ... near military units and not near units >> > Ok hold on, just a little note here I like the idea and all but isn't that six > categories? count 'em > Anyways, why does the area from a military unit make a diffrence? Because units in cantonment require some level of cooperation from the civvies. People have been known to burn their excess crops rather than give them to an oppressor (I would), and even forced-requisitioning will not make up for losses like that. Also, civvies will move if the fear of unknown is less than fear of staying. In addition, civvies are very creative (cute little creatures that they are), and can blow up fuel storage depots. Look at 'Nam. > Couldn't a > soldier go out and shoot children and burn down farm houses until he was > payed, or a whole squad for that. They could "monitor" an area and force the > civis of that are to pay them for protection, aside from what the military > gives them? You guys seem to think everyone is hugs and flowers. Screw all > that hippy stuff. If a soldier wants something and he has the ability to take > it he will. Right or wrong is not a thing here, if you want it and the only > thing standing between you and that thing is Joe the turnip picker, Martha his > wife, and his kids Toady and Jezabell then he could blow ol' Joes head off > with a Caw and gut poor martha bury them in a shallow grave then go inca on > the kids by hanging them upside down from town square taking his bowie knife > and puncturing the belly button and cutting down to the sternum, letting them > bleed to death and stare at their own intestines. Then I would like to see > someone in town try to not want to pay, and if someone else didn't want to > then they would have to be an example as well. This is called a terrorized region. Those are marauders. Plus, see my above comments. This sort of thing doesn't work if you plan on staying there (never piss in your own sandbox). On a final note, for Final Jeopardy, the answer is, "Seen several times in the near future on America's Most Wanted". What's the question? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:08:48 -0400 From: RCamp Subject: RE: twilight2000-digest V1998 #29 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA018.DFDB6A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What ever happened to your website that featured the new character careers? I was there once, lost the address and couldn't find it again. I was particularly interested in the Survivalist and other outdoor careers. - -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Berg [SMTP:mitch@humanwaredesign.com] Sent: Sunday, June 21, 1998 11:21 AM To: twilight2000@mpgn.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #29 SB Burzmali wrote: > While this [re: the value of gold] this is true, you must also consider what happened due >to the Twilight War. Billions of people have died this means that all >the gold in the world now belongs to a smaller group of people, >driving the value of gold down. But while the number of people dropped, the number of other acceptable items of currency dropped even further. Dollars are now toilet paper. SchweitzeFranke are used to insulate houses. Electronic commerce? Hah! Most money exists only in electronic form these days...well, you get the picture. In EVERY human crisis in history, gold has INCREASED in value relative to other units of currency or barter. >First very few >countries on the planet have the equipment to mint _gold_ coins at the >time of the Twilight War, most use paper money and coins made of >copper and other less valuable. As someone else pointed out, minting gold coins is extraordinarily easy. Nations were doing it at the dawn of history. It takes virtually no equipment, other than molds. Minting copper, nickel and steel coins is much, much harder, and takes SERIOUS equipment. Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (612)644-4192 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA018.DFDB6A80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjUNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS 5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAsAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAM AIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHR3aWxpZ2h0Mj AwMEBt cGduLmNvbQBTTVRQAHR3aWxpZ2h0MjAwMEBtcGduLmNvbQAAAAAeAAIwAQAAAAUAAABTTVR QAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFgAAAHR3aWxpZ2h0MjAwMEBtcGduLmNvbQAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAA AAeAAEw AQAAABgAAAAndHdpbGlnaHQyMDAwQG1wZ24uY29tJwACAQswAQAAABsAAABTTVRQOlRXSUxJ R0hU MjAwMEBNUEdOLkNPTQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAFgAAAHR3aWxpZ2h0M jAwMEBt cGduLmNvbQAAAAIB918BAAAASQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHR3aWxpZ2h 0MjAw MEBtcGduLmNvbQBTTVRQAHR3aWxpZ2h0MjAwMEBtcGduLmNvbQAAAAADAP1fAQAAAAMA/18A AAAA 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AMAAAAAAAABG AAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAA AAAB4AQoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAA AAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAADn5 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA018.DFDB6A80-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:15:50 -0500 From: Mitch Berg Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #30 Monkey boy need medication: >Yeah, but lets say you have a choice, 50 pounds of chef boyarde beefy >goodness, or 50 pounds of gold. Ok you haven't seen any food for a week and >don't know if you'll see anymore after this, what would you rather have in the >aftermath of nuclear war? FOOD OR MONEY? Die a rich man and be dead or live? The answer is obvious, and has absolutely nothing to do with the question at hand. >Seeing as how this is the most powerful handgun what do you do punk, go ahead >make my day. The 44 Mag is overrated. >- -Monkey Person >P.S. And if you say half and half then what do you do when you run out of food >and are stuck with twenty five pounds of gold? Starve??? What do you do when the last can is empty? Starve? Sorry, simian, the first thing I'da done with the first pound of my 25 lbs of gold was buy a plow, 50 pounds of seed and something to pull the lot. And a chair to sit on as I laugh at you eating spaghetti... >P.S.S. Monkeys are not ours to eat, use for clothing or experiment on. Sez you. Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (612)644-4192 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:05:56 -0400 From: Mitchell Schwartz Subject: Apocalyptic Exchange The Monkey said: >Economics in Twilight work like this, there is no law, the most powerful take >whatever they can take. It might be the players or the NPCs. Of course, in some cases, other options are available and make more sense for something beyond the next 10 minutes. >Lets say Joey the goat salesmen has four fine kilos of goat cheese, some >hungry soldiers come up to him and say "Hey man we'll give you this bottle of >booze for those four kilos of goat cheese." But Joey doesn't want to give up >his goat cheese so Joey (who just so happens to be a ex veit cong bushwacker, >veteran npc) pulls his trusty desert eagle (which he got from some snot nosed >little GI) and blasts a shot right into Sgt.Buttcracks stinkin skull. Then he gets blasted by the three other GIs. He loses the goat and the farm. Maybe a polite "no" would have been a better idea. Roll of the die, bucko. In more settled situations, like Krackow, where someone has a) determined that a market is a good thing as it leaves excess used to run a government (even if it's only the market place itself) and b) has the organization and muscle available to create a market and tell folks to be polite or else, someone causing a ruckus in such a market place is likely to find himself either dead or exiled sans equipment (called "a fine.") Raiding a town to take something that was too expensive to buy or trade might work - but it also might cost you in ammo, wounds, or dead comrades. Also, if you plan to have to stay in the area, you might have lost a potential friend or gained an now-annoyed enemy. Never can tell. Trading in a town does NOT necessarily that they will WANT your gold. That case of Nato 7.62 and the M-60 might be more appealing to them. Generally, I let folks buy what they think they need subject to availability. Things thay want may not be available (one game I ran, I had some annoyed folk because they could only get steel-plate flak jackets and no gas masks) because the US 5th Inf just doesn't have 'em - or didn't have enough to offer the PCs. I determine this fresh for each game. If they can carry it (and I check vehicle loads pretty carefully) and its available, they can have it. Too much stuff requires too many vehicles - which requires stills and brewing time... mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://www.intersys.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:18:47 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start Oops In a message dated 98-06-25 09:11:45 EDT, you write: << This sort of thing doesn't work if you plan on staying there (never piss in your own sandbox). >> Why not, civis are like old people, once you kill a hand full or two for good measure and say if they run you'll hunt them down, and say if they don't coperate you'll kill, them some will try other ways but five or six troops full loaded could wipe out the civs very easily. And ass for pissing in your own sadbox my cat does it all the time, and he gets rewarded very nicely, I ony put him in te dry when hedoesn't piss in his own sandbox. as for the whole category thing I think there are six, money near military, money not near military,barter near military, barter not near near military, stability not near military, stability near military. Hmmm looks like six to me. Until some concrete evidence comes out in print so as to a definte defintion of all of this then its up to the fastest member on this board, so prepuse a race, leaving from paris this saturday we all will race around the world by car, ballon, and boat! The winner gets to be the judge for all discussion as to what is the best. The second place person will be his slave because second is the first place to lose. 3-5 will have to spend the weekend with my grandmother and anyone who comes in lower than 50th will be shot. - -Superstar Monkey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:21:50 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #30 In a message dated 98-06-25 09:22:35 EDT, you write: << What do you do when the last can is empty? Starve? Sorry, simian, the first thing I'da done with the first pound of my 25 lbs of gold was buy a plow, 50 pounds of seed and something to pull the lot. And a chair to sit on as I laugh at you eating spaghetti... >> Who would want to give up there food for gold, I think we decided this already, the kids come first or something along those lines. Have you ever been shot with a .44? Next time you are tell me if it is still over rated for a bullet you can buy at K Mart. - -Monkey the medicated Boy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:02:42 -0400 From: RCamp Subject: RE: Apocalyptic Exchange - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA032.17EA9360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Monkey said: >Economics in Twilight work like this, there is no law, the most = powerful take >whatever they can take. It might be the players or the NPCs.=20 Of course, in some cases, other options are available and make more = sense for something beyond the next 10 minutes. Law and order isn't stamped out in the Twilight universe, it's just = shrunk to a fraction of its former state. Anyplace where there is = someone strong enough to impose their "own" rules of conduct, there is a = sense of order, no matter how perverted it may seem to someone not = exposed to it on a regular basis. Common sense to anyone but the most demented individuals is to first try = to trade for a wanted item, then if the situation is desperate enough = try to take it by force. Most rural folk have firearms (for hunting or = putting down suffering animals), and are particularly suspicious of = strangers carrying firearms in the vicinity of their properties. After = surviving a single episode with either forced requisition of supplies or = strangers with firearms near their property, even the thickest farmer = would think to post a guard with a firearm nearby to warn of someone = approaching or to provide at least cover-fire for his family/friends to = get to some area of safety. Taking out anyone except for refugees or = scavengers may just be harder than you are giving due thought to. Raiding a town to take something that was too expensive to buy or trade might work - but it also might cost you in ammo, wounds, or dead = comrades. Also, if you plan to have to stay in the area, you might have lost a potential friend or gained an now-annoyed enemy. Never can tell. Historically, raiding a town was very costly in terms of the number of = casualties that result, especially if the inhabitants are expecting you. = I would have to agree with the above. Trading in a town does NOT necessarily that they will WANT your gold. = That case of Nato 7.62 and the M-60 might be more appealing to them. Something is always worth something to someone else. Generally, I let folks buy what they think they need subject to availability. Things thay want may not be available (one game I ran, I = had some annoyed folk because they could only get steel-plate flak jackets = and no gas masks) because the US 5th Inf just doesn't have 'em - or didn't = have enough to offer the PCs. I determine this fresh for each game. My group and I have played with the campaign theme being survival. The = characters get basic load and are off on their way. The player's like = this, the equipment and/or weapons that they acquire along the way have = meaning to them in the sense that it didn't just appear out of thin air. = The character's don't usually start with any gold because soldier's = being what they are in a war environment and with most of the higher = ranks gone, they are more likely to gamble their pay and/or spend it on = alcohol and women. This has historical precedence (from the days of the = Roman Legions, up to the Viet Nam war). If they can carry it (and I check vehicle loads pretty carefully) and = its available, they can have it. Too much stuff requires too many vehicles - which requires stills and brewing time... And too many vehicles, as you say, is a logistical nightmare in the = Twilight environment. 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