twilight2000-digest Saturday, June 20 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 029 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Blah blah blah. Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Cash on start Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Blah blah blah. Play by e-mail Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Blah blah blah. Source of information Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Play by e-mail Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Cash on start Re: Cash on start Re: Blah blah blah. Re: Cash on start ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:04:00 +1200 From: "NaT" Subject: Re: Cash on start Given the low melting point of gold, minting coins would be less of a problem than you might think, What happended to the huge gold reserves held in cities that were nuked, what there is gold held in a secure vault and noone remembers the password? Sounds like an adventure hook :) NaT percival@ihug.co.nz Nathaniel Bacchus http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~percival - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Curran To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Thursday, 18 June 1998 09:02 Subject: Re: Cash on start > > > > > >---Scott David Orr wrote: >> >> Right now, gold is worth a few hundred dollars per troy ounce (a >troy ounce >> isn't the same size as a regular ounce, but you get the general >idea). If >> all the paper money in the world were to disappear, as happens in >TW2000, >> and all the gold mines in the world stopped functioning (which is >exactly >> what would happen given the way gold is mined today, crunching up >tons of >> rock and dirt to get a little bit of gold), gold would be worth a >LOT more >> than it is now, because now it's essentially just a trinket. (Of >course, >> keep in mind that a TW2000 economy wouldn't need _nearly_ as much >money as >> a modern economy, and with all those people dying a lot of gold >jewelry is >> going to be available, but still, the important point is that gold >would be >> used as money, which isn't happening in the real modern world.) >> >> It might not be as valuable as it was in the Middle Ages, but I'm >sure that >> $1,000 of it would be no more than a few coins at most; indeed, for >the >> most part you'd probably carry silver rather than gold. In effect, >you can >> treat cash in TW2000 as weightless. >> >> Scott Orr >> > > While this this is true, you must also consider what happened due >to the Twilight War. Billions of people have died this means that all >the gold in the world now belongs to a smaller group of people, >driving the value of gold down. I also doubt that the gold would be >in coin form. What country still possesses the ability to mint coins, >and is willing to devote resources to it? None, therefore gold would >probably be in bar or nugget form. Just my thoughts. > >-S. B. Burzmali > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:23:09 EDT From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-17 17:13:28 EDT, S. B. Burzmali writes: << What country still possesses the ability to mint coins, and is willing to devote resources to it? None, therefore gold would probably be in bar or nugget form > I usually make it in the form of jewelry and such. Rings, necklaces, and other such trinkets. A little more practical than lugging around gold bars, IMO. orrin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:37:22 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 12:47 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > While this this is true, you must also consider what happened due >to the Twilight War. Billions of people have died this means that all >the gold in the world now belongs to a smaller group of people, >driving the value of gold down. Yes, but the point is that gold is not heavy, relative to its value. I think I read one time that all the gold ever mind would fit into cube X feet on a side (something like 100 feet). >I also doubt that the gold would be >in coin form. What country still possesses the ability to mint coins, >and is willing to devote resources to it? None, therefore gold would >probably be in bar or nugget form. Just my thoughts. > Minting gold coins isn't very difficult. For that matter, it's just as easy as minting bars: you pour molten gold into mold, and/or stamp it, in either case. Gold is really soft and melts at low temperatures, so this isn't particulaly demanding. But it doesn't really matter--where you don't have an established government, the value of gold is by weight, so coins, bars, and nuggets work just as well (except of course that there's no longer any such thing as nuggets, because all the gold that easy to find has already been found, and now it comes out of the ground in tiny flakes. The main issue is whether or not the gold is pure, which is the importance of an established government behind coinage. Of course, it goes without saying that for a given value of gold, gold bars and gold coins weigh exactly the same (unless a given type of coinage is so well-established as to command a slight premium for the security of known purity and weight). Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:04:03 EDT From: Grimace997@aol.com Subject: Re: Cash on start In a message dated 98-06-17 19:51:23 EDT, you write: << Yes, but the point is that gold is not heavy, relative to its value. I think I read one time that all the gold ever mind would fit into cube X feet on a side (something like 100 feet). >I also doubt that the gold would be >in coin form. What country still possesses the ability to mint coins, >and is willing to devote resources to it? None, therefore gold would >probably be in bar or nugget form. Just my thoughts. > Minting gold coins isn't very difficult. For that matter, it's just as easy as minting bars: you pour molten gold into mold, and/or stamp it, in either case. Gold is really soft and melts at low temperatures, so this isn't particulaly demanding. But it doesn't really matter--where you don't have an established government, the value of gold is by weight, so coins, bars, and nuggets work just as well (except of course that there's no longer any such thing as nuggets, because all the gold that easy to find has already been found, and now it comes out of the ground in tiny flakes. The main issue is whether or not the gold is pure, which is the importance of an established government behind coinage. >> I don't know if ALL the gold out there is found yet. That would mean that all of the rivers and streams in the world have been explored and prospected. There's always more nuggets to find! And I don't know about the total gold figure. I've seen pictures here in Juneau, about all the gold pulled from the Treadwell mine, and the pile they had was enormous! And the AJ mine is the largest in America, and it pulled more than the Treadwell! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:15:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Cash on start Greetings and Salutations, Whoa everybody, maybe I should explain why I believe gold bars would exist instead of gold coins or jewelry. First very few countries on the planet have the equipment to mint _gold_ coins at the time of the Twilight War, most use paper money and coins made of copper and other less valuable. In fact most of this equipment would probably be used in the war effort. So no country is minting coins, this leaves individuals. A small group of people most likely possess small minting shops, where they make small bars for the rich and powerful, which are then transferred into the general population. Second, all jewelry, while attractive to the eye, would most likely be melted down so that is in its most easily transportable form, bars. Not to say jewelry doesn't exist, maybe the premise for an interesting campaign (hint,hint). Until next time - -S. B. Burzmali (Anyone?) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:41:29 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Blah blah blah. Ok heres a real crazy idea, why don't you guys figure out something cool in like game terms like what would happen if you shot a rabbit with a tow, or how about you run a game with magical JFK bullets only? here is an example... Ok some commie guy in the bush fires a shot, it hits bubba the marine corp grunt in the right arm bounces off a rock after passing through the arm and hits Joey the radio guy in the back of the head killing him. the magic bullet rocks. Ok heres another idea magic tows that shot rabbits, like bunnies fly out at people and kill them. "Oh no not the tow!" ::rabbit strikes the marine corp sucka and rips out his heart:: "AHHHH!!!!" - -Monkey Boy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:05:49 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Cash on start You're talking about diamonds. Grimace997@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-17 19:51:23 EDT, you write: > > << > Yes, but the point is that gold is not heavy, relative to its value. I > think I read one time that all the gold ever mind would fit into cube X > feet on a side (something like 100 feet). - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:38:26 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 08:15 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > > > Greetings and Salutations, > > Whoa everybody, maybe I should explain why I believe gold bars >would exist instead of gold coins or jewelry. First very few >countries on the planet have the equipment to mint _gold_ coins at the >time of the Twilight War, most use paper money and coins made of >copper and other less valuable. In fact most of this equipment would >probably be used in the war effort. So no country is minting coins, >this leaves individuals. A small group of people most likely possess >small minting shops, where they make small bars for the rich and >powerful, which are then transferred into the general population. Coins are just about as easy to mint as bars, and easier to handle--and indeed to transport. Plus, the sort of "bars" most people would need would be little tiny ones, since the huge things you see in movies about Fort Knox are worth a LOT of money (probably thousands of dollars each, at if not more). >Second, all jewelry, while attractive to the eye, would most likely be >melted down so that is in its most easily transportable form, bars. >Not to say jewelry doesn't exist, maybe the premise for an interesting >campaign (hint,hint). Jewelry is just as easy a way to transport and store gold as anything else, and has the advantage that it can be kept on your person quite easily--rings in particular are really hard to steal. This is in fact one way that wealth was saved in the days before paper money. Also, jewelry is often worth slightly more than its weight in gold, because of its artistic value. Since a piece of jewelry will always be worth _at_least_ its weight in gold, there's little incentive to melt it down (unless you're trying gather up a huge hoard of gold from a population in order to make a big payment). Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:44:11 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 10:05 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >> In a message dated 98-06-17 19:51:23 EDT, you write: >> >> << >> Yes, but the point is that gold is not heavy, relative to its value. I >> think I read one time that all the gold ever mind would fit into cube X >> feet on a side (something like 100 feet). > >You're talking about diamonds. > No, I'm talking about gold. It would be kind of silly to talk about fitting all the diamonds in the world into a solid shape, since diamonds, being crystals, can't conceivably be melted and forged into a single block. Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 06:28:51 EDT From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. In a message dated 98-06-18 00:53:52 EDT, you write: << -Monkey Boy >> Hey, Aren't you a rascist? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:02:46 -0400 From: Derek Klein Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. Uh-oh. Here we go again . . . :) At 06:28 AM 6/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-18 00:53:52 EDT, you write: > ><< > -Monkey Boy >> > >Hey, >Aren't you a rascist? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:09:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Cash on start - ---Scott David Orr wrote: > > Coins are just about as easy to mint as bars, and easier to handle--and > indeed to transport. Plus, the sort of "bars" most people would need would > be little tiny ones, since the huge things you see in movies about Fort > Knox are worth a LOT of money (probably thousands of dollars each, at if > not more). > While they maybe easier to transport, they still have to be made. All gold that has been mined in transported in bar form, and then stored in bar form. Unless some Baron or local warlord wants to spend time and resources into converting his gold hoard into coins. > > Jewelry is just as easy a way to transport and store gold as anything else, > and has the advantage that it can be kept on your person quite > easily--rings in particular are really hard to steal. This is in fact one > way that wealth was saved in the days before paper money. > True, hack silver was popular in the middle ages. > Also, jewelry is often worth slightly more than its weight in gold, because > of its artistic value. Since a piece of jewelry will always be worth > _at_least_ its weight in gold, there's little incentive to melt it down > (unless you're trying gather up a huge hoard of gold from a population in > order to make a big payment). However, jewelry is only valuable to who find it valuable, not the people who are likely to find it. An example is the wealth of the pyramids. Treasure hunters emptied them and converted the gold and silver into forms less conspicuous and easier to way than the statues and necklaces. Until Next Time - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:35:35 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. Dirty commie! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:57:40 +0100 From: Roger Stenning Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. At 10:02 18/06/98 -0400, you wrote: >Uh-oh. Here we go again . . . :) ohshit... I-N-C-O-M-I-N-G! Let's be CAREFUL, people, no flame wars (again) please! _____________________________________________________________ Cheers, Roger (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW) MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It Always goes wrong. ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! e-mail: roger@isg.abel.co.uk Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html ICQ UIN: 7742586 _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:30:16 +0100 From: Christopher Alan Cranston <9607794c@student.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Play by e-mail I know there are several twilight 2000 play by e-mail games currently running, and I was wondering if there are any vacancies for a player as I would be very interested in taking part. Thanks, Chris Cranston. 9607794c@student.gla.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:24:02 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. Perhaps if the killer bunny rabbits attacked squids or doggies, but I think Marines could handle it... next example... ;-)b Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > Ok heres a real crazy idea, why don't you guys figure out something cool in > like game terms like what would happen if you shot a rabbit with a tow, or how > about you run a game with magical JFK bullets only? here is an example... > Ok some commie guy in the bush fires a shot, > it hits bubba the marine corp grunt in the right arm bounces off a rock after > passing through the arm and hits Joey the radio guy in the back of the head > killing him. > the magic bullet rocks. > Ok heres another idea magic tows that shot rabbits, like bunnies fly out at > people and kill them. "Oh no not the tow!" ::rabbit strikes the marine corp > sucka and rips out his heart:: "AHHHH!!!!" > > -Monkey Boy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:32:28 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. Wasn't this guy "king of the flying monkeys" a few years back (or something like that?) I remember someone getting ticked at hiom, and calling him 'monkey boy' as an insult... perhaps he's one and the same? KAPPAABZ@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-18 00:53:52 EDT, you write: > > << > -Monkey Boy >> > > Hey, > Aren't you a rascist? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:37:43 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. Yeah (rasberries to all)... if ya wanna argue, please don't waste my time with it... handle it out of public view. While some flames are at least amusing, they certainly get dull after the tenth comeback or so.... Roger Stenning wrote: > At 10:02 18/06/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Uh-oh. Here we go again . . . :) > > > > ohshit... I-N-C-O-M-I-N-G! > > Let's be CAREFUL, people, no flame wars (again) please! > > _____________________________________________________________ > Cheers, > > Roger > (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW) > > MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It Always goes wrong. > ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! > > e-mail: roger@isg.abel.co.uk > > Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ > INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: > http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html > ICQ UIN: 7742586 > _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:09:22 +0200 From: Marcin Segit Subject: Source of information Hi! I found a page dedicated to Vietnam veternas. It contains some war stories and some useful links. the url is http://www.stealth.net/~stan/ Marcin - -- May the Force be with You - Luke Skywalker Marcin Segit ICQ# 13274376 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:54:27 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 08:09 AM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > While they maybe easier to transport, they still have to be made. > All gold that has been mined in transported in bar form, and then >stored in bar form. Unless some Baron or local warlord wants to spend >time and resources into converting his gold hoard into coins. > No, that's simply not true. Coins are easy to make. The ONLY reason you make bars instead is if you want to transport large amounts of gold at one time (and large bars like that are of course useless as money, because they're too big). >> >>Jewelry is just as easy a way to transport and store gold as anything >>else, and has the advantage that it can be kept on your person quite >>easily--rings in particular are really hard to steal. This is in fact >>one way that wealth was saved in the days before paper money. >> > True, hack silver was popular in the middle ages. > The same would be true of Palladium ("white gold") and Platinum. > However, jewelry is only valuable to who find it valuable, not >the people who are likely to find it. An example is the wealth of the >pyramids. Treasure hunters emptied them and converted the gold and >silver into forms less conspicuous and easier to way than the statues >and necklaces. As I said before, jewelry is always worth at _least_ as much as its weight in gold, so there's never really a downside to having it, except maybe it's being conspicuous (or the cost of making it). Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:44:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Cash on start - ---Scott David Orr wrote: > > At 08:09 AM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > No, that's simply not true. Coins are easy to make. The ONLY reason you > make bars instead is if you want to transport large amounts of gold at one > time (and large bars like that are of course useless as money, because > they're too big). I am not contesting that coins are easy to make, I am simply pointing out that there is no one to make them, countries have other concerns, individuals don't possess the equipment, and most gold in the world is already in bar form. So while coins maybe easy to make, there is simply no one who would bother to make them. > As I said before, jewelry is always worth at _least_ as much as its weight > in gold, so there's never really a downside to having it, except maybe it's > being conspicuous (or the cost of making it). Good point, however not all jewelry is pure gold, most contain nickel copper or other metals. The weight along would bend most large pure gold pieces. All and all IMHO the Twilight 2000 world would probably use a system similar to the Latnum system in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, 10 slips to a strip, 10 strips to a bar. - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:52:47 +1200 From: "NaT" Subject: Re: Play by e-mail Sorry, you might want to lurk? NaT percival@ihug.co.nz Nathaniel Bacchus http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~percival - -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Alan Cranston <9607794c@student.gla.ac.uk> To: twilight2000 Date: Friday, 19 June 1998 09:34 Subject: Play by e-mail >I know there are several twilight 2000 play by e-mail games currently >running, and I was wondering if there are any vacancies for a player as I >would be very interested in taking part. > >Thanks, > Chris Cranston. > 9607794c@student.gla.ac.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:07:39 EDT From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. In a message dated 98-06-18 19:31:38 EDT, you write: << Wasn't this guy "king of the flying monkeys" a few years back (or something like that?) I remember someone getting ticked at hiom, and calling him 'monkey boy' as an insult... perhaps he's one and the sam >> This was the guy who someone called a rascist because of his adolescent nickname. Then there was a whole lot of bandwitdth wasted on it. It was quite amusing. But I don't think he was ever actually proven to be a rascist. That's where the inside joke comes into play ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:12:26 -0400 From: Derek Klein Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. To clarify this issue: If I'm not mistaken, it was a line spoken by John Lithgow as Dr. Emil Lizardo in "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension." It was a reference to humanity's decendancy from the apes -- which I guess may offend the creationists among us, but is certainly not racist. At 06:07 AM 6/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-18 19:31:38 EDT, you write: > ><< Wasn't this guy "king of the flying monkeys" a few years back (or > something like that?) I remember someone getting ticked at hiom, and > calling him 'monkey boy' as an insult... perhaps he's one and the sam >> > >This was the guy who someone called a rascist because of his adolescent >nickname. Then there was a whole lot of bandwitdth wasted on it. >It was quite amusing. >But I don't think he was ever actually proven to be a rascist. That's where >the inside joke comes into play > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:11:08 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 08:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > I am not contesting that coins are easy to make, I am simply >pointing out that there is no one to make them, countries have other >concerns, individuals don't possess the equipment, and most gold in >the world is already in bar form. So while coins maybe easy to make, >there is simply no one who would bother to make them. > But who's going to make the bars? The only gold in the world already in bar form is that in places like Fort Knox, or maybe what's used by jewelry-makers--and most such bars will be way too big to be usable as cash, except for very big transactions. >> As I said before, jewelry is always worth at _least_ as much as its >weight >> in gold, so there's never really a downside to having it, except >maybe it's >> being conspicuous (or the cost of making it). > > Good point, however not all jewelry is pure gold, most contain >nickel copper or other metals. The weight along would bend most large >pure gold pieces. > Yes, but that just means 10k and 14k gold would have different values from 24k.... > All and all IMHO the Twilight 2000 world would probably use a >system similar to the Latnum system in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, 10 >slips to a strip, 10 strips to a bar. > That is, in essence, coinage. The shape and names are really irrelevant--when you have items of standard size and material and use them as money, you're talking about coins. Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:38:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Cash on start - ---Scott David Orr wrote: > > At 08:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrthem. > But who's going to make the bars? The only gold in the world already in > bar form is that in places like Fort Knox, or maybe what's used by > jewelry-makers--and most such bars will be way too big to be usable as > cash, except for very big transactions. > Maybe I am not being clear, the vast majority of gold in the world is in bar form at the present, and the time of Twilight War. Unless something drastic occurs the gold will remain in bar form. > > Good point, however not all jewelry is pure gold, most contain > >nickel copper or other metals. The weight along would bend most large > >pure gold pieces. > > > Yes, but that just means 10k and 14k gold would have different values from > 24k.... > Finally a point we can agree on. > > All and all IMHO the Twilight 2000 world would probably use a > >system similar to the Latnum system in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, 10 > >slips to a strip, 10 strips to a bar. > > > That is, in essence, coinage. The shape and names are really > irrelevant--when you have items of standard size and material and use them > as money, you're talking about coins. Coinage yes, but not in the modern sense. More simply a way to have a standard for weights and values of the gold. Until next time - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:08:58 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 07:38 PM 6/19/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > > > > >---Scott David Orr wrote: >> >> At 08:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrthem. > >> But who's going to make the bars? The only gold in the world >already in >> bar form is that in places like Fort Knox, or maybe what's used by >> jewelry-makers--and most such bars will be way too big to be usable as >> cash, except for very big transactions. >> > Maybe I am not being clear, the vast majority of gold in the >world is in bar form at the present, and the time of Twilight War. >Unless something drastic occurs the gold will remain in bar form. > Something drastic has occurred: World War III. The bars you're talking about are way too big to be usable as currency. Moreover, those bars are the least accessible gold on the planet, and quite of few of them would have been in cities that got nuked. >> > All and all IMHO the Twilight 2000 world would probably use a >> >system similar to the Latnum system in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, 10 >> >slips to a strip, 10 strips to a bar. >> > >> That is, in essence, coinage. The shape and names are really >> irrelevant--when you have items of standard size and material and >use them >> as money, you're talking about coins. > > Coinage yes, but not in the modern sense. More simply a way to >have a standard for weights and values of the gold. > But that's all that coins are...unless someone is actively out there re-forging those bars so that they're all the same size, and so that you have both big ones and little ones, there won't be standards. Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:17:32 +0100 From: Roger Stenning Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. At 06:07 19/06/98 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-18 19:31:38 EDT, you write: > ><< Wasn't this guy "king of the flying monkeys" a few years back (or > something like that?) I remember someone getting ticked at hiom, and > calling him 'monkey boy' as an insult... perhaps he's one and the sam >> > >This was the guy who someone called a rascist because of his adolescent >nickname. Then there was a whole lot of bandwitdth wasted on it. >It was quite amusing. >But I don't think he was ever actually proven to be a rascist. That's where >the inside joke comes into play Makes it more amusing when you realise that not only am I a former Military Policeman, but the rest of the British Army had a nickname for all MP's... generally used when they swere pissed off with us... such as when we messed up someone's fun (normally involving a punch-up between soldiers), and we were invariably called .. ...wait for it... "Monkeys"! ... _____________________________________________________________ Cheers, Roger (Class 'B' UK Radio Amateur, call sign G1LIW) MURPHY was a bloody optimist. It Always goes wrong. ESPECIALLY if it's mission critical! e-mail: roger@isg.abel.co.uk Main RPG homepages, incorporating Millennium's End London E-Sourcebook: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/5037/ INTSUM Twilight:2000 website: http://www.abel.net.uk/~isg/index.html ICQ UIN: 7742586 _____________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 05:39:59 -0700 From: Jeremy Menefee Subject: Re: Cash on start I don't think the average polish farmer in a war-torn marauder-riddled part of Poland would think the jewelry (or bar, for that matter) was worth anything at all... but an old, tossed-aside AK47, or a new metal plow, might be worth a whole hell of a lot to him... nothing has intrinsic value to a market - only to individuals. As in, a helecoptor is worth nothing to me- can't fly it. Now, if I could reasonably be expected to trade that chopper easily for stuff I need, then I might. So, basically, I think it's all moot. Merchants in cities might take gold, and the rest of the scrubs use barter. Just my HO. - -JM Semper Fidelis Scott David Orr wrote: > At 08:09 AM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: > > > > While they maybe easier to transport, they still have to be made. > > All gold that has been mined in transported in bar form, and then > >stored in bar form. Unless some Baron or local warlord wants to spend > >time and resources into converting his gold hoard into coins. > > > No, that's simply not true. Coins are easy to make. The ONLY reason you > make bars instead is if you want to transport large amounts of gold at one > time (and large bars like that are of course useless as money, because > they're too big). > >> > >>Jewelry is just as easy a way to transport and store gold as anything > >>else, and has the advantage that it can be kept on your person quite > >>easily--rings in particular are really hard to steal. This is in fact > >>one way that wealth was saved in the days before paper money. > >> > > True, hack silver was popular in the middle ages. > > > The same would be true of Palladium ("white gold") and Platinum. > > > However, jewelry is only valuable to who find it valuable, not > >the people who are likely to find it. An example is the wealth of the > >pyramids. Treasure hunters emptied them and converted the gold and > >silver into forms less conspicuous and easier to way than the statues > >and necklaces. > > As I said before, jewelry is always worth at _least_ as much as its weight > in gold, so there's never really a downside to having it, except maybe it's > being conspicuous (or the cost of making it). > > Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:08:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Curran Subject: Re: Cash on start - ---Scott David Orr wrote: > > > Something drastic has occurred: World War III. The bars you're talking > about are way too big to be usable as currency. Moreover, those bars are > the least accessible gold on the planet, and quite of few of them would > have been in cities that got nuked. > Yes they _have been_ in the cities that got nuked. They are not likely to still be there. All significant gold caches are stored in vaults of solid steel, lead and plenty of other material, most likely capable of withstanding a nuclear blast from a distance away. Then every treasure hunter who survived would run to get radiation suits and raid places like Fort Knox. When these people are eventually successful the market would be flooded with gold bars. > > Coinage yes, but not in the modern sense. More simply a way to > >have a standard for weights and values of the gold. > > > But that's all that coins are...unless someone is actively out there > re-forging those bars so that they're all the same size, and so that you > have both big ones and little ones, there won't be standards. Most gold bars in the world have a certain weight. Since gold is easy to shape a bar could be cut into ten strips of the same weight and those can be cut into ten slips of all the same weight. This would the basis for all gold based transactions, with the small denomination being small and easy to transport. Until next time (Which will probably be soon) - -S. B. Burzmali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:21:42 EDT From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Blah blah blah. In a message dated 98-06-20 01:29:43 EDT, you write: << king of the flying monkeys" >> It was Monkey boy, but i am all man now ba-by!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:10:43 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Cash on start At 05:39 AM 6/20/98 -0700, Jeremy Menefee wrote: >I don't think the average polish farmer in a war-torn marauder-riddled part of >Poland would think the jewelry (or bar, for that matter) was worth anything at >all... but an old, tossed-aside AK47, or a new metal plow, might be worth a >whole hell of a lot to him... nothing has intrinsic value to a market - only to >individuals. As in, a helecoptor is worth nothing to me- can't fly it. Now, >if I could reasonably be expected to trade that chopper easily for stuff I >need, then I might. So, basically, I think it's all moot. Merchants in cities >might take gold, and the rest of the scrubs use barter. Just my HO. > I think you're basically right, in theory--something doesn't have value unless people think it does. The weird thing though is that traditionally people have perceived that gold _does_ have intrinsic value. This is actualy quite odd, because it's not terribly useful and, though pretty, there are other metals just as pretty; but of course it IS rare, which makes it hard to get ahold of, and you can't manipulate the supply of it very easily, like you could paper money. At any rate, whatever the reasons, the shift from gold (or gold-backed) currency to paper money has always been a very contentious political issue, with one side claiming that paper money was bad because, unlike gold, it's not intrinsically worth anything. OTOH, you are exactly right that farmer won't want to take gold if doesn't have anything to buy with it, and that means he needs some access to markets; in the middle ages for example there wasn't much that peasants would want to buy, and this would be true to an extent in TW2000. But of course, it's also true there's lots of equipment left around, some of which, like the AK-47, could be useful even to a farmer. If he knows that such weapons (or other things he could use--like ammunition or fuel) are commonly available in exchange for gold in nearby markets, then he'll be willing to take gold, but probably would demand a higher price than a merchant, who could use the gold more readily. Scott Orr >-JM >Semper Fidelis > >Scott David Orr wrote: > >> At 08:09 AM 6/18/98 -0700, Michael Curran wrote: >> > >> > While they maybe easier to transport, they still have to be made. >> > All gold that has been mined in transported in bar form, and then >> >stored in bar form. Unless some Baron or local warlord wants to spend >> >time and resources into converting his gold hoard into coins. >> > >> No, that's simply not true. Coins are easy to make. The ONLY reason you >> make bars instead is if you want to transport large amounts of gold at one >> time (and large bars like that are of course useless as money, because >> they're too big). >> >> >> >>Jewelry is just as easy a way to transport and store gold as anything >> >>else, and has the advantage that it can be kept on your person quite >> >>easily--rings in particular are really hard to steal. This is in fact >> >>one way that wealth was saved in the days before paper money. >> >> >> > True, hack silver was popular in the middle ages. >> > >> The same would be true of Palladium ("white gold") and Platinum. >> >> > However, jewelry is only valuable to who find it valuable, not >> >the people who are likely to find it. An example is the wealth of the >> >pyramids. Treasure hunters emptied them and converted the gold and >> >silver into forms less conspicuous and easier to way than the statues >> >and necklaces. >> >> As I said before, jewelry is always worth at _least_ as much as its weight >> in gold, so there's never really a downside to having it, except maybe it's >> being conspicuous (or the cost of making it). >> >> Scott Orr > > > > > ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #29 ************************************