twilight2000-digest Monday, April 27 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 023 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Ships/Navy Infringement? Re: "bitch sessions" Re: Rebirth Re: Ships/Navy [none] Copyrights Re: unsuscribe Re: unsuscribe Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #22 Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction Re: Infringement? Re: Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction Re: Infringement? Re: Infringement? Web pages Operational Ships in TW2K Re: People Re: Ships/Navy Re: Re: On life Re: how to UnSubScribe Re: Infringement? Re: Infringement? Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #22 Re: Ships/Navy Re: Infringement? Re: On life ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:41:54 -0400 From: Emperor Palpatine Subject: Re: Ships/Navy Hey, > By 'ground their ships' I assume you meant that the CO would find a nice harbor > somewhere, set the anchor, and just leave. There is a Navy motto 'don't give up the > ship' which is almost one of the Ten Commandments to most Lifers. This is all true indeed. I suppose, after the disaster, there would be two types of crew: those trying to survive, and those trying to be US Navy seamen. I would guess you'd see mixed reactions; some crews might scuttle their ships and, quite possibly, go off to join the ground forces somewhere. Others might literally beach the ships and walk away, or drop anchor in the middle of nowhere and exist as an island. The reason I say "ground" the ships as opposed to actually dropping anchor is only because a lot of ports, especially on East coast and in California wouldn't be (relatively) safe to dock in - many might be too "hot" from radiation (and besides, who wants to pick through the rubble of a large city?), while others could be occupied or operated by a host of renegade clowns. Again, it would matter depending upon the given situation. Somewhere along the Florida coast, forever nestled in the sand, there might be a rusty old cruiser, showing signs of torpedo damage, sitting there since late '99. In another instance, the inhabitants of a small New England fishing town might tell the PCs about the "mysterious vessel" that appeared way the hell out on the horizon some months ago. Upon investigation, maybe it's one of our smaller missile boats, anchored and abandoned. Actually, while in reality all of our carriers would be gone, that might make for an interesting adventure hook. Shades of "Apocolypse Now", although the inhabitants of the vessel need not be hostile. In fact, if anyone here's planning on sending their PCs on a sea cruise, this might be a neat hook if the party is lost at sea or something. >Now that I think of it most Captains would scuttle, or voluntarily sink, > the vessel before abandoning it or putting it aground. That would be an excellent > starting point for a campaign with new characters I think. And it certainly would be a refreshing change from "Escape from Kalisz"... :) - -- Ash: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm doing fine... Mirror Image: Hey Ash, we just cut up our girlfriend with a chainsaw, does that sound "fine" to you??? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:13:11 EDT From: GDW GAMES Subject: Infringement? Scott Orr said: >At 12:00 AM 4/14/98 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: > >>But if summarizing some of the rules is possibly a copyright >>infringement, then I fear for those of us who have material that falls >>even on the borderline. > >Well, it most assuredly isn't--copyright protects the specific form of a >work, not any derivates (trademark law is another issue, IF GDW trademarked >some of the TW:2000 terms). But you might want to ask a lawyer about it. I have had the dubious distinction of being part of a company sued for copyright violation. It can cost big bucks even if you are totally innocent (in the case of GDW, we had a hold-harmless clause, which meant that we didn't have to pay any legal bills -- it is still a time consuming mess, however). And (this is important so I'm putting it in caps) EVEN IF YOU GET THE SUIT TOSSED AS GROUNDLESS, you are still out the time and mental energy of defending your self. And you still have to pay the lawyer up front to get the suit tossed (even if you get awarded legal fees when everything is over -- getting back more than you put into it is pretty rare). Lawyers don't work for free -- and this is civil court, so the "if you desire and cannot afford one" criminal stuff doesn't apply. The final decision over what does and does not violate a specific copyright is made when the judge's gavel descends (fun concpt isn't it?). OCRing every single word is clearly a violation. Does "summarizing" the rules constitute a violation? I dunno, I'm not a lawyer -- but in my layman's opinion, it depends on how much of the original wording you stick with when you "summarize." My opinion doesn't matter anyway -- only the judge's. FYI, Trademarks is a different kettle of fish. GDW only trademarked the title Twilight: 2000, none of the other specific game terms. Tantalus bought the trademark rights also (something tells me you didn't want to hear that). I haven't seen Saul's website, and I have no idea what he is trying to accomplish, but if it involves large chucks of intact text, tables, and so on, I'd get the stuff down and work something out. Find one of those lawyers that does a free initial consultation, and ask these same questions. Saul said: > That's not a problem. It's the reproduction of the old books that they see > as a problem. For all intents, I think this too is pretty silly- they are > not publishing any of the older material, they are not making any money > whatever on it, & those of us who do 'reproduce' the material, do it for > non-profit reasons. The problem is this: If they allow you to violate their proprietary rights and do not complain, they can concievably lose all rights to the property. Profit/non-profit means nothing as far as the law is concerned. If I own a copy of a novel by Robert Heinlein, even if that novel is out of print, I cannot OCR it in and put it on my web site without violating Virginia Heinlein's rights to her husband's work. Mrs Heinlein (or her lawyer) would be fully within her rights to order me to take the words down, and to sue me if I refused. Whether I make money off of it or not is irrelevant. Whether the Heinlein literary estate is making any money off it is also irrelevant. Ah...I see Rob has already said a lot of this. Loren Wiseman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:02:54 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: "bitch sessions" >Damn, calm down everyone. Why the hell are we fighting amongst each >other??? It seems that whenever there is a discussion it eventually just >breaks down. THIS IS NOT JERRY SPRINGER. This is the twilight:2000 >mailing list!!! I'd hate to see what happens if we all got in a room >together, would we be busting chairs over each other's heads??? Ok, it's >not everyone but I really don't care. It's like someone will state their >opinion on some rule or something, there will be discussion, and then it >eventually just breaks down to messages that basically say "you suck!" Peter, Emotions enter into discussions, this is unavoidable. When discussion breaks down into attacking one another's character instead of the issues the opposing sides present, there is a problem. I understand what you're saying. With this most recent discussion betwixt Palpatine and I, it slipped for a moment, but everything is fine now. These things will invariably happen betwixt people in discussion- heh, if you were reading back in September.... it got much more heated.... Mad Mike, are you still subsribing? It's been too long since we last spoke :) Saul The History of the Development of the Soviet Union http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:11:26 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Rebirth > Have you done writing for the >game in the past, on a professional level? No, I have not. My writings are consisted wholly of notes I've made as a referee over the past nine years, playing the game. > > If you have a plan of action to win our game back, what do you intend? I have no suggestions. The decision lies in the hands of Tantalus, we can do nothing further about the matter, if it is Twilight: 2000 we are interested in surviving. Saul If this prompts relevancies from the previous letters I've sent off to you Palpatine, please let me know. The History of the Development of the Soviet Union http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:11:03 PDT From: "Donald Harden" Subject: Re: Ships/Navy >> rdf sourcebook has some listing for the persian gulf region, >> but that's for 1st edition...... >> >> going home lists a few............ > > Argh, I never got my hands on some of those older supplements. Out of >curiosity, are there any of the monsters left or just some tramp >steamers and transports? I would suppose all of our carriers were >slagged in the first exchange. > > Another point we failed to bring up about maintaining a surface fleet >in 2001+ AD is that in addition to the (now impossible) task of >maintaining such a vessel - the parts and people are all long gone - >there's the issue of fuel. Yes, I know some of these ships - and most of >the subs (are there any 688's left?) - are nuclear powered, some ships >still need oil-based fuel, and they all need oil-based lubricants. > > Before I make this statement, I'm asking any ex-Navy folks among us not >to skin me alive. It's just that, well... keeping in the spirit of my >above statement, I think that in T:2000, the remnants of most surface >navies - not right away, mind you, and not all at once - would >eventually ground themselves near a friendly - and intact - coast, if no >port was available, ala "On the Beach". It seems to make sense because >eventually, food, fuel, time, and luck are all going to run out. >Ironically, I'd want to stay on a (nuclear powered) ship for as long as >possible; fuel's no big concern in the short run, you can always send >landing parties to forge for food if the fishing was bad, and there's no >one to bother you on the high seas. You're also far from most of the big >radiation hot spots. > > Failing this, however - let's say the reactor starts to fail - I could >see the skeleton crew of some small cruiser deciding to beach the ship >on a quiet strip of, say, Georgia coastline, and make their way home. If >nothing else, this makes it easier for refs to integrate Navy characters >into the group, giving them a reason for being there, etc. I was told by an uncle of mine who served on the USS Forrestal(Uss Forrest Fire), that carriers had about 12 months supply of food and twice that in lubricants, and parts. Those carriers also had their own machine shops on board, so if they knew what they needed to make, and had the raw materials, they could make them! > > The problem I always had with Air Force and Navy personnel in the game >was giving them a hook. Since most of the players INSISTED on playing >Joe Grunt, a member of another service was always a welcome novelty. >This is the sort of thing that works the best if EVERYONE in the group >adopts the character background. Though this is off-topic, it's the same >problem with the Cop and Corporate characters in the Cyberpunk: 2020 >game. If one player insists on playing a standard beat cop, what's he >doing hanging around with the rest of the bunch...? 10 years ago, I played an Air Force pilot in a game that the ref started out from just before the first bombs started falling. I was shot down over friendlies, and as I had seen where enemy forces were and such, I became the scout!!! Of course, they kept me with other ground pounders, but the idea was that I was shot down in one of the last big aerial engagements of the war. That was a great game, and the funny thing was that because my character was so far out of his element, he asked them to train him a little, and he was the only one to survive the campaign! Everyone was a little amazed, leasst of all me! > >-- >Ash: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm doing fine... > >Mirror Image: Hey Ash, we just cut up our girlfriend with a chainsaw, >does that sound "fine" to you??? > Don Harden Ever Listening Ever Commenting Colonel Chaos "Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to manuever. Situation excellent. I am attacking."-Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:15:05 +0200 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?=D8ivind_Himsett?=" Subject: [none] unsuscribe twilight2000 himsett@online.no ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:24:47 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Copyrights http://www.benedict.com/ has some interesting info on copyrights - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:36:41 -0400 From: Matt Aistrich Subject: Re: unsuscribe Řivind Himsett wrote: > unsuscribe twilight2000 himsett@online.no People sending these messages to the list instead of where they belong I can understand -- but why does almost everyone make the same mistake with the word UNSUBSCRIBE??? Have fun, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:22:16 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: unsuscribe Matt Aistrich wrote: > > Řivind Himsett wrote: > > > unsuscribe twilight2000 himsett@online.no > > People sending these messages to the list instead of where they belong I > can understand -- but why does almost everyone make the same mistake > with the word UNSUBSCRIBE??? > > Have fun, > > Matt Hey everyone, here's a tip: DON'T DELETE THE E-MAIL YOU GOT WHEN YOU JOINED THE LIST. Ok, I can understand if you did lose it (all my mail got deleted about a month back). Here's a better tip: If it doesn't work the first time, it's not going to work later! hehe i'll probably get hell for this - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:21:17 -0500 From: Mitch Berg Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #22 > If you'd like to use ships on a smaller scale, Challenge magazine had a >rather good feature one issue about sailing smaller ships. This included >types of ships, new skills and how to apply them, rules for weather and >terrain erosion, and other cool stuff. Want a photocopy? > Hey, I wrote that article! Always nice to get a review, even six years after the fact... Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (612)996-4960 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:30:24 +0000 From: seventyfourth@pop.erols.com Subject: Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction POST #12 (Status will advance on Tuesday, April 28th) ******************** RULES OF THE AUCTION Auctioneer: Michael Rottler-Gurley seventyfourth@erols.com 1. Bids must be whole $1 amounts. (i.e. no "change") 2. All items will be shipped via USPS. Postage is additional as is insurance (if desired). I will let you know the postage and insurance amounts within 24 hours if you are the winning bidder. If you have a preferred shipper besides USPS (i.e. UPS, FedX), I will make all attempts to use that shipper instead. 3. Items will be shipped with in 24 hours of receiving funds (cashiers check or money order) or as soon as the check clears if personal check is used (allow about 10 days for this). No CODS. 4. Please pay close attention to your bids. 5. I will use the "Going, Goingx2, Gone" method. This process will begin Friday, April 24, 1998. Every 48 hours will advance the status if I do not receive any higher bids for the item. 6. I expect everyone to honor their bids once things are at the GOINGx2 or GONE stage. If you don't want an item, PLEASE let me know before this. 7. The person making the earliest bid settles identical bids. 8. Each update will have the top 3 bidders listed. 9. Please list a name and item number when bidding. 10. There will be no "buyouts" accepted. Item Condition: Mint - No noticeable flaws. Perfect. Near mint - A few small flaws. Excellent - Showing some wear and minor flaws. Very good - Average used condition. Fair - Extremely well used. Poor - Extremely well used and has major flaws. Unless noted, all material is complete, i.e. no missing pages. ************************* 500 1st edition Boxed Set Condition: Fair - Very Good Complete right down to the Content Sheet, Errata Sheet, dice, and a couple of blank character/vehicle sheets. The box itself is in good condition. There are some pencil and pen markings on the material, and the equipment list has masking tape on its spine for reinforcement. For some reason, there are two copies of the Referee's Charts in the box. (I'm not sure where I picked up the 2nd one!) The 2-page color map of Poland has been kept in very good Excellent condition. Minimum Bid: $5 jrw4war@rocketmail.com $6 GOING x2 wraith@pensys.com $5 501 The Free City of Krakow Condition: Very Good (some highlighting) Minimum Bid: $3 502 Pirates of the Vistula Condition: Excellent (very minor pencil marking) Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 GOING x2 503 The Ruins of Warsaw Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 GOING x2 504 U.S. Army Vehicle Guide (includes color plates) Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 wraith@pensys.com $3 GOING x2 505 The Black Madonna Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 506 Going Home (includes color map of N. Germany) Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 507 Red Star Lone Star Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 draco@capital2.com $5 GOING paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 508 RDF Sourcebook Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $5 TIED BID bicem@ucs.orst.edu $5 TIED BID jrw4war@rocketmail.com $4 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 509 Armies of the Night Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 draco@capital2.com $6 GOING paul.tatton@megabit.net $5 andrew_b@earthlink.net $4 512 Gateway to the Spanish Main Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 GOING 513 King's Ransom Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 GOING 514 Soviet Vehicle Guide (includes color plates) Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $4 GOING x2 wraith@pensys.com $3 516 Small Arms Guide Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING wraith@pensys.com $3 517 The Last Submarine Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 519 Howling Wilderness (includes Citymaker) Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $4 GOING Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 ************************* The Revised Recon Rules Book (Palladium) 3rd Printing, 1988 Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 ************************* Uniforms of the Warsaw Pact (squadron/signal pub.) Condition: Excellent Minimum Bid: $4 ************************* I have several other items that will go up for auction in the future. The only reason that they won't be available right now is that I'm in the midst of moving and don't have the time to catalog them and make sure that they are complete. In addition to posting on the newsgroup, I'll email any bidders in this auction when I'm ready to sell. (if you're interested) 551 Last Battle Boxed Set Team Yankee Rules/Maps/Counters Challenge #25 Challenge #26 Challenge #27 Challenge #28 Challenge #29 Challenge #30 Challenge #39 Challenge #51 ************* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:17:48 EDT From: CardSharks Subject: Re: Infringement? In a message dated 98-04-26 13:29:12 EDT, you write: << Saul said: > That's not a problem. It's the reproduction of the old books that they see > as a problem. For all intents, I think this too is pretty silly- they are > not publishing any of the older material, they are not making any money > whatever on it, & those of us who do 'reproduce' the material, do it for > non-profit reasons. >> Let me extend this discussion further... Tantalus OWNs the material. They could say to everyone... don't even come near reproducing it. Instead, they say you can do fair use which is a pretty fair treatment of everyone concerned. If the public is then going to have negative discussions on how much more Tantalus should do, it becomes pretty unprofitable for them to even fight the fight, and a lot easier for them to retreat to the positions other hold, which is hands off. Marc Miller ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:17:01 -0500 From: "Brian K. Flood & Ann Marie Henke" Subject: Re: Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction - -----Original Message----- From: seventyfourth@pop.erols.com To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM Date: Sunday, April 26, 1998 8:55 PM Subject: Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction Mike's Twilight 2000 Auction POST #12 (Status will advance on Tuesday, April 28th) ******************** RULES OF THE AUCTION Auctioneer: Michael Rottler-Gurley seventyfourth@erols.com 1. Bids must be whole $1 amounts. (i.e. no "change") 2. All items will be shipped via USPS. Postage is additional as is insurance (if desired). I will let you know the postage and insurance amounts within 24 hours if you are the winning bidder. If you have a preferred shipper besides USPS (i.e. UPS, FedX), I will make all attempts to use that shipper instead. 3. Items will be shipped with in 24 hours of receiving funds (cashiers check or money order) or as soon as the check clears if personal check is used (allow about 10 days for this). No CODS. 4. Please pay close attention to your bids. 5. I will use the "Going, Goingx2, Gone" method. This process will begin Friday, April 24, 1998. Every 48 hours will advance the status if I do not receive any higher bids for the item. 6. I expect everyone to honor their bids once things are at the GOINGx2 or GONE stage. If you don't want an item, PLEASE let me know before this. 7. The person making the earliest bid settles identical bids. 8. Each update will have the top 3 bidders listed. 9. Please list a name and item number when bidding. 10. There will be no "buyouts" accepted. Item Condition: Mint - No noticeable flaws. Perfect. Near mint - A few small flaws. Excellent - Showing some wear and minor flaws. Very good - Average used condition. Fair - Extremely well used. Poor - Extremely well used and has major flaws. Unless noted, all material is complete, i.e. no missing pages. ************************* 500 1st edition Boxed Set Condition: Fair - Very Good Complete right down to the Content Sheet, Errata Sheet, dice, and a couple of blank character/vehicle sheets. The box itself is in good condition. There are some pencil and pen markings on the material, and the equipment list has masking tape on its spine for reinforcement. For some reason, there are two copies of the Referee's Charts in the box. (I'm not sure where I picked up the 2nd one!) The 2-page color map of Poland has been kept in very good Excellent condition. Minimum Bid: $5 jrw4war@rocketmail.com $6 GOING x2 wraith@pensys.com $5 501 The Free City of Krakow Condition: Very Good (some highlighting) Minimum Bid: $3 502 Pirates of the Vistula Condition: Excellent (very minor pencil marking) Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 GOING x2 503 The Ruins of Warsaw Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 GOING x2 504 U.S. Army Vehicle Guide (includes color plates) Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 wraith@pensys.com $3 GOING x2 505 The Black Madonna Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 506 Going Home (includes color map of N. Germany) Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 bkfamh@panama.c-com.net $5 507 Red Star Lone Star Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 draco@capital2.com $5 GOING paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 bkfamh@panama.c-com.net $6 508 RDF Sourcebook Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $5 TIED BID bicem@ucs.orst.edu $5 TIED BID jrw4war@rocketmail.com $4 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 509 Armies of the Night Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 draco@capital2.com $6 GOING paul.tatton@megabit.net $5 andrew_b@earthlink.net $4 bkfamh@panama.c-com.net $7 512 Gateway to the Spanish Main Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 GOING 513 King's Ransom Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $3 GOING 514 Soviet Vehicle Guide (includes color plates) Condition: Excellent (some minor cover wear) Minimum Bid: $3 Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $4 GOING x2 wraith@pensys.com $3 516 Small Arms Guide Condition: Near Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING wraith@pensys.com $3 517 The Last Submarine Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 bicem@ucs.orst.edu $4 GOING jrw4war@rocketmail.com $3 519 Howling Wilderness (includes Citymaker) Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 paul.tatton@megabit.net $4 GOING Argent_Warning@rocketmail.com $3 bkfamh@panama.c-com.net $5 ************************* The Revised Recon Rules Book (Palladium) 3rd Printing, 1988 Condition: Mint Minimum Bid: $3 ************************* Uniforms of the Warsaw Pact (squadron/signal pub.) Condition: Excellent Minimum Bid: $4 ************************* I have several other items that will go up for auction in the future. The only reason that they won't be available right now is that I'm in the midst of moving and don't have the time to catalog them and make sure that they are complete. In addition to posting on the newsgroup, I'll email any bidders in this auction when I'm ready to sell. (if you're interested) 551 Last Battle Boxed Set Team Yankee Rules/Maps/Counters Challenge #25 Challenge #26 Challenge #27 Challenge #28 Challenge #29 Challenge #30 Challenge #39 Challenge #51 ************* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:25:42 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Infringement? Marc, I understand what you're saying. Allow me an analogy: 'Don't fret about not having full freedom of religion; for the freedom of religion here is much better than most other countries. Shhh, don't stand up.... sit back down, don't talk that way! If you do not respect the freedom that you do now have, they will take it all away from the whole lot of us!' I am happy Tantalus has been leninent in the matter, and I would understand thier position should they undertake to not allow any material to be published, they are simply holding onto what is theirs. I would like Tantalus to be more leninet however, and if Tantalus and I could arrange some legal agreements, perhaps we could come to a civil solution on the publication of the material. Marc, I'm still young yet; and the youth in me has a way of saying I will not abide by threats of what could be, should I (or anyone else) say such and such a thing. I will not sit quietly, contently, with my hands under my arse waiting for a decision long since overdue it's promised arrival date. However, I have no intention of taking up arms, banners of protest, or other such things; but do not expect me to silence my thought for them. I will surrender that thing to no one, lest I choose to surrender my freedom. I do not disrespect thier rights, or thier claim over the game: they bought it, it is thier's now just as much as it was GDW's then, value for value. I do disrespect thier poor treatment of us. Could they be worse? Undoubtably. If we do not have discussions on how much more they should do, then Twilight: 2000 will slowly die. If they decide to retreat further back into thier caves, and tell us all to take down our sites immediately, I would be obliged to be the first. If the books are not available online or via a renewed publication, some of us can do some good: we can provide material for current gamers to enjoy the game. I feel however, this is something like life support. I will have no part of it. Saul >Let me extend this discussion further... Tantalus OWNs the material. They >could say to everyone... don't even come near reproducing it. Instead, they >say < you can do fair use < which is a pretty fair treatment of >everyone concerned. If the public is then going to have negative discussions >on how much more Tantalus should do, it becomes pretty unprofitable for them >to even fight the fight, and a lot easier for them to retreat to the positions >other hold, which is hands off. The History of the Development of the Soviet Union http://www.hutman.com/~musides/Soviet.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:12:26 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Infringement? Saul Basgen wrote: >I do disrespect thier poor treatment of us. They don't have to do anything for us really. I can disprespect them because they haven't done anything with the game, but they have no obligation to us. Because of this I can't really say their treatment of us is poor. I'll go with "it leaves something to be desired." - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:52:12 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Web pages Ok, since I've got a lot to do in the next month I just uploaded my pages. Ok, now that I'm looking at them the navigation bars are all wrong. bugger. I'll try and get that fixed - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:53:22 +0100 From: johnson@hrem.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de Subject: Operational Ships in TW2K I think someone on the mailing list sent out a proposed list of still operational U.S Navy ships sometime last year. This also included an updated U.S Army and Air Force operational forces for the year 2003. I can't remember his email address, but we discussed on the mailing list about April of last year. Try looking through the archived mailing list digests. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:59:04 +0100 From: johnson@hrem.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de Subject: Re: People An additional note on the what ships would be operational. Remember the U.S Navy would probably begin reactivating reserve ships from these graveyards to replace ones lost in combat which in TW2K would be a sizable amount. In 1997 before the Navy would be working overtime to get these ships operational. It would also be a good idea to look at Jane's Fighting Ships. This has a really comprehensive list of warships. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:08:10 +0100 From: johnson@hrem.mpi-stuttgart.mpg.de Subject: Re: Ships/Navy I thought there already was an adveture written about a scuttled ship. I think it was the USS Virginia. Run aground off the coast of the Baja peninsula. It was called "Satellite Down". Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:20:43 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: At 03:22 PM 4/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >Bors Robert wrote: >> >> signoff twilight2000 > >I wonder how many people we're losing compared to how many people are >joining the list Its about 1 to 1. Most people who sign up probably think its something else, find out that the discussion doesn't float their boat, and then bail. There are 125 people subscribed to the main list and 75 subscribed to the digest version. The list has built to around the 200 mark and it has stayed that way for the past year, give or take a few. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:23:03 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: On life At 10:07 PM 4/23/98 -0800, you wrote: > > It has been more than one week since the promised proclamation of Twilight >copyright laws. I'm a patient person. > > I can't guess at thier intentions of delaying the release of these laws, >this doesn't matter to much. I can say with 100% truth and disclosure that I am waiting on approval by licensing and management. It will be posted as soon as I get the Okay. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:22:06 +0100 From: John.Guy@student.shu.ac.uk (John Guy) Subject: Re: how to UnSubScribe unsubscribe twilight2000 jaguy@pine.shu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:42:08 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: Infringement? At 12:12 AM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >Saul Basgen wrote: >>I do disrespect thier poor treatment of us. > >They don't have to do anything for us really. I can disprespect them >because they haven't done anything with the game, but they have no >obligation to us. Because of this I can't really say their treatment of >us is poor. I'll go with "it leaves something to be desired." And exactly what would we have to do to make our "Treatment" of you better? We have the most net friendly policies. What is it you would like from us? Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:16:03 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Infringement? Rob, Simply honesty. Having had promised releasing the copyright information some time ago, I feel breaking that promise was poor treatment to us all. I can see that you are still listening, and have not dropped the matter- that you are listening, and taking the time to respond, thank you very much. That you have provided us the status on the issue, I appologize for being so quick to generalize. Saul >And exactly what would we have to do to make our "Treatment" of you better? > We have the most net friendly policies. What is it you would like from >us? The History of the Development of the Soviet Union http://www.hutman.com/~musides/Soviet.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:13:27 -0400 From: Emperor Palpatine Subject: Re: twilight2000-digest V1998 #22 Mitch Berg wrote: > > > If you'd like to use ships on a smaller scale, Challenge magazine had a > >rather good feature one issue about sailing smaller ships. This included > >types of ships, new skills and how to apply them, rules for weather and > >terrain erosion, and other cool stuff. Want a photocopy? > > > > Hey, I wrote that article! > > Always nice to get a review, even six years after the fact... Heh, I actually read/copied it today. Man, I can't believe it was 1992. I can remember reading that issue on the train. I especially liked the restored antique option, "for extremely ambitious players or extremely silly referees." :) Nice touch. - -- Ash: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm doing fine... Mirror Image: Hey Ash, we just cut up our girlfriend with a chainsaw, does that sound "fine" to you??? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:25:09 -0400 From: Emperor Palpatine Subject: Re: Ships/Navy > I was told by an uncle of mine who served on the USS Forrestal(Uss > Forrest Fire), that carriers had about 12 months supply of food and > twice that in lubricants, and parts. Those carriers also had their own > machine shops on board, so if they knew what they needed to make, and > had the raw materials, they could make them! Hmmm. Certainly, this would increase their effective operational period. However, wouldn't these supplies be used up at an accelerated rate in a wartime environment? Thinking of carriers, I can see a portion of the food and lubricants just going to waste the first time the ship is pelted with a Kingfish or catches a torpedo - and you *know* our carrier groups were crowned on a regular basis. Oil would leak/spill, food might spoil (if power is lost) or burn, the demand for spare parts would accelerate, etc. > > The problem I always had with Air Force and Navy personnel in the game > >was giving them a hook. > 10 years ago, I played an Air Force pilot in a game that the ref started > out from just before the first bombs started falling. I was shot down > over friendlies, and as I had seen where enemy forces were and such, I > became the scout!!! Of course, they kept me with other ground pounders, > but the idea was that I was shot down in one of the last big aerial > engagements of the war. That was a great game, and the funny thing was > that because my character was so far out of his element, he asked them > to train him a little, and he was the only one to survive the campaign! > Everyone was a little amazed, leasst of all me! This sounds like a a great game. Did you start off the game from the time you were shot down, or were air missions also roleplayed? I would have liked to see this sort of thing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:31:41 EDT From: CardSharks Subject: Re: Infringement? In a message dated 98-04-26 23:34:53 EDT, you write: << I would like Tantalus to be more leninet however, and if Tantalus and I could arrange some legal agreements, perhaps we could come to a civil solution on the publication of the material. >> If you want a license to do what you are doing, then we should shift to private email and discuss it. That requires a business plan and a statement about how this woul dmake money and how much would flow to Tantalus. Marc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:19:26 EDT From: CardSharks Subject: Re: On life In a message dated 98-04-27 08:37:46 EDT, you write: << I can say with 100% truth and disclosure that I am waiting on approval by licensing and management. >> And I (Marc Miller) am one of the people who has input which I have not yet been able to make. I'm working on it. Marc Miller ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #23 ************************************