twilight2000-digest Friday, April 24 1998 Volume 1998 : Number 021 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 TW 2000 Auction Final Everything gone... Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Old Challenges Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Re: Web page... Pictures Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Re: Web page... Re: Web page... PBEM Merc 2000 Usage policy statement delayed Afganistan ground tactics Re: Afganistan ground tactics Re: Afganistan ground tactics On life Re: Afganistan ground tactics Re: On life Re: Web page... Re: On life X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) Re: On life Rebirth Re: On life ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:11:41 -0300 From: wardlow Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 I wouldn't mind. I am ex- military ( Armoured, Canadian) and ex-special constable Vlad Donald Harden wrote: > Hey folks, > > I was asked to GM a merc 2000 game by e-mail. I am looking for a > maximum of 16 to 18 personnel. I am looking for former military > characters as well as personnel with law enforcement training. There > are other skills that the group will need and character ideas will be > looked at on a case by case basis. E-mail me at- > > Dirk_the_Dark@hotmail.com > > I look forward to hearing from any and all who wish to play. > > Don Harden > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:15:34 -0300 From: wardlow Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Oh I forgot to mention, I was trained as 5th Commando, Advanced mines demolitions and booby traps, qualified sniper, I have a degree in Anthropoloy and Computer Programming specializing in Object Oriented Programming and multimedia programming. "Vlad" Again Donald Harden wrote: > Hey folks, > > I was asked to GM a merc 2000 game by e-mail. I am looking for a > maximum of 16 to 18 personnel. I am looking for former military > characters as well as personnel with law enforcement training. There > are other skills that the group will need and character ideas will be > looked at on a case by case basis. E-mail me at- > > Dirk_the_Dark@hotmail.com > > I look forward to hearing from any and all who wish to play. > > Don Harden > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jeffrey P. Cherpeski" Subject: TW 2000 Auction Final Everything gone... 1st Edition 508 RDF Sourcebook $21.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 509 Armies of the Night $21.00 Grady Bell GONE 515 Urban Guerrilla $8.50 Saul Basgen GONE 520 Mediterranean Cruise $9.00 Phil Hatfield GONE 522 Satellite Down $8.50 Grady Bell GONE 524 Bear's Den $8.50 Grady Bell GONE 528 TW 2000 Survivors Guide to the UK $20.50 Grady Bell GONE 2nd Edition 2005 Merc: 2000 Rules $16.00 Willam Capich GONE 2009 Nautical/Aviation Handbook $13.00 Willam Capich GONE SOLD ITEMS 506 Going Home $3.00 Grady Bell GONE 507 Red Star, Lone Star $3.50 Saul Basgen GONE 510 Allegheny Uprising $3.00 Grady Bell GONE 511 Airlords of the Ozarks $4.00 SquigRacer GONE 512 Gateway to the Spanish Main $3.50 Orrin Ladd GONE 528 TW 2000 Survivors Guide to the UK $4.00 Michael Leahy GONE 502 Pirates of the Vistula $6.00 Mike Jasinski GONE 517 The Last Submarine $6.00 Michael Leahy GONE 503 The Ruins of Warsaw $7.00 Saul Basgen GONE 516 Small Arms Guide $3.00 Randy Kerchmar GONE 523 Return to Warsaw $7.00 Michael Leahy GONE 2000 TW 2000 Rulebook $7.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2002 Infantry Weapons of the World $4.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2007 NATO Combat Vehicles $4.00 Alan Eaton GONE 504 US Army Vehicle Guide $3.00 Peter Vieth GONE 514 Soviet Vehicle Guide $4.00 Pedro Arnal Puente GONE 519 Howling Wilderness $5.00 Michael Leahy GONE 521 Boomer $3.00 Phil Hatfield GONE 2014 Castle By the Sea $5.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2016 Crouching Dragon $5.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 518 Kidnapped $4.00 Grady Bell GONE 2017 East Europe Sourcebook $8.00 Willam Capich GONE 501 The Free City of Krakow $6.00 Saul Basgen GONE 505 The Black Madonna $9.50 Grady Bell GONE 525 Heavy Weapons Guide $5.00 Michael Leahy GONE 526 TW 2000 NATO Vehicle Guide $9.00 Pedro Arnal Puente GONE 527 White Eagle $9.00 Mike Jasinski GONE 2003 American Combat Vehicles $10.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2004 Soviet Combat Vehicles $9.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2006 Bangkok $7.00 Brian K. Flood GONE 2012 Special Operations $12.00 Alan Eaton GONE WWW Twilight 2000: City of Angels $10.00 Orrin Ladd GONE ===================== Jeff Cherpeski cherpesk@scs.unr.edu Carson City, Nevada ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:23:38 -0300 From: wardlow Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Oh I also forgot to mention that I am a level three fencing coach and I am also proficient with almost every weapon from pike to poison, broadsword to Archery ( I used to shoot 461 average with barebow in competition.) I also have trades tickets in Heating Systems, and Water purification systems. "Vlad" once again (Last time Honest!) P.S. I like to write comedy. Donald Harden wrote: > Hey folks, > > I was asked to GM a merc 2000 game by e-mail. I am looking for a > maximum of 16 to 18 personnel. I am looking for former military > characters as well as personnel with law enforcement training. There > are other skills that the group will need and character ideas will be > looked at on a case by case basis. E-mail me at- > > Dirk_the_Dark@hotmail.com > > I look forward to hearing from any and all who wish to play. > > Don Harden > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:52:01 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Web page... Please save what data you are interested from my site. It is becomming likely that I will have to close down (not entirely, but to such an extent that it might as well be considered as thus) my site due to some questions I had asked Tantalus, and the answers I have recieved. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:16:24 EDT From: Grimace997 Subject: Re: Web page... In a message dated 98-04-13 22:10:43 EDT, you write: << Please save what data you are interested from my site. It is becomming likely that I will have to close down (not entirely, but to such an extent that it might as well be considered as thus) my site due to some questions I had asked Tantalus, and the answers I have recieved. >> And what questions were asked and answered that prompted you to think that you page might be closing down? You've got a fairly neutral page, I thought. What should any of us be on the lookout for? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:49:05 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Web page... >And what questions were asked and answered that prompted you to think that you >page might be closing down? You've got a fairly neutral page, I thought. >What should any of us be on the lookout for? Simply an infrigment of copyright/trademark. Tantalus has not threatened me- simply said that books cannot be reproduced. I have not reproduced them- word for word, idea for idea, but have come awfully close. I've mailed back Rob Miracle to be more speicific on what he means, and what copyrights or infrigements my site is currently breaking. It is very possible that his response will be that I'm breaking many, so I will be obliged to take down a great deal of information. What should you be looking to gain from my site? Up to you. Saul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:03:04 EDT From: Grimace997 Subject: Re: Web page... In a message dated 98-04-13 22:58:52 EDT, you write: << Simply an infrigment of copyright/trademark. Tantalus has not threatened me- simply said that books cannot be reproduced. I have not reproduced them- word for word, idea for idea, but have come awfully close. I've mailed back Rob Miracle to be more speicific on what he means, and what copyrights or infrigements my site is currently breaking. It is very possible that his response will be that I'm breaking many, so I will be obliged to take down a great deal of information. >> What really burns me up is that they get the game and just sit on it, doing nothing but harrassing people who put up information on it, attempting to keep it alive! Why is it that any company that buys another can never do BETTER than the first company?! What was the point of Tantalus purchasing the rights for Twilight 2000 if they don't intend to produce it? And why is it wrong for a person (or people) to offer suggestions and new ideas on the game so that new people might become interested in it? Ticks me off.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:54:18 EDT From: KAPPAABZ Subject: Re: Web page... In a message dated 98-04-13 22:10:43 EDT, you write: >likely that I will have to close down (not entirely, but to such an extent >that it might as well be considered as thus) my site due to some questions >I had asked Tantalus, and the answers I have recieved. do tell.............. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:00:00 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Web page... Grimace997 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-04-13 22:58:52 EDT, you write: > > << > Simply an infrigment of copyright/trademark. Tantalus has not threatened > me- simply said that books cannot be reproduced. I have not reproduced > them- word for word, idea for idea, but have come awfully close. I've > mailed back Rob Miracle to be more speicific on what he means, and what > copyrights or infrigements my site is currently breaking. It is very > possible that his response will be that I'm breaking many, so I will be > obliged to take down a great deal of information. >> > > What really burns me up is that they get the game and just sit on it, doing > nothing but harrassing people who put up information on it, attempting to keep > it alive! Why is it that any company that buys another can never do BETTER > than the first company?! What was the point of Tantalus purchasing the rights > for Twilight 2000 if they don't intend to produce it? And why is it wrong for > a person (or people) to offer suggestions and new ideas on the game so that > new people might become interested in it? > > Ticks me off.... Hehe... well at least we have the mailing list. Why did Tantalus buy the rights to Twilight: 2000? Why the Battle of the Bulge? Why did Marv Albert bite a hotel worker? Why would someone steal prescription glasses? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-pop? Like the commercial says, we may never (fully) know... But if summarizing some of the rules is possibly a copyright infringement, then I fear for those of us who have material that falls even on the borderline. - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:14:35 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 wardlow wrote: > > Oh I also forgot to mention that I am a level three fencing coach and I am > also proficient with almost every weapon from pike to poison, broadsword > to Archery ( I used to shoot 461 average with barebow in competition.) I > also have trades tickets in Heating Systems, and Water purification > systems. > "Vlad" once again (Last time Honest!) > P.S. I like to write comedy. > Fiddlesticks. How fast can ya strip wire? - -- Peter Vieth <-- favorite to win Redwood City Duct Tape competition. That the competition has never been held and I came up with it is of no consequence. Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:39:44 -0500 From: Mitch Berg Subject: Old Challenges Does anyone have a source for old "Challenge" magazines? Specifically, I'm looking for #63. Even more specifically, I'm looking for an article on Snipers. I've cited it (in copy written in 1990) on my website, and I'd like to have the article itself... Let me know if we can work something out. Mitch Berg Humanware Design - www.humanwaredesign.com (612)996-4960 User Interface Design, Usability Analysis and Information Engineering. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:23:19 -0300 From: wardlow Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 Very fast I used to work as a communications Hardwiring Tech. I hand wired more than 2000 RS232 connections in 2 months. And in Heating Systems and Water purification you have to wir the controls. Also did I forget to mention I'm trained in Advanced Radio Communications and Code Scramblers? "Vlad" Peter Vieth wrote: > wardlow wrote: > > > > Oh I also forgot to mention that I am a level three fencing coach and I am > > also proficient with almost every weapon from pike to poison, broadsword > > to Archery ( I used to shoot 461 average with barebow in competition.) I > > also have trades tickets in Heating Systems, and Water purification > > systems. > > "Vlad" once again (Last time Honest!) > > P.S. I like to write comedy. > > > Fiddlesticks. How fast can ya strip wire? > > -- > Peter Vieth <-- favorite to win Redwood City Duct Tape competition. > That the competition has never been held and I came up with it is of no > consequence. > Fitek@ix.netcom.com > IGZ Handle: Fitek > ICQ UIN: 3660410 > Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:15:05 -0400 From: Scott David Orr Subject: Re: Web page... At 12:00 AM 4/14/98 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: >But if summarizing some of the rules is possibly a copyright >infringement, then I fear for those of us who have material that falls >even on the borderline. Well, it most assuredly isn't--copyright protects the specific form of a work, not any derivates (trademark law is another issue, IF GDW trademarked some of the TW:2000 terms). But you might want to ask a lawyer about it. Scott Orr ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:35:36 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Web page... >What really burns me up is that they get the game and just sit on it, doing >nothing but harrassing people who put up information on it, attempting to keep >it alive! Hold on. I contacted him, not the other way around- I did it, so in the future, they wouldn't come knocking on my door and destroy all the work I've put into the pages- hitherto I've spent a great deal of time on my web pages, but I plan (plans that are now on hold of course) to do a great deal more in the future- it's that work I don't want to see destroyed, so I stepped up, and asked for whatever is comming to me. What was the point of Tantalus purchasing the rights >for Twilight 2000 if they don't intend to produce it? I don't know, I wish I did. I have said the same such things to Rob Miracle, and am waiting for his response. And why is it wrong for >a person (or people) to offer suggestions and new ideas on the game so that >new people might become interested in it? That's not a problem. It's the reproduction of the old books that they see as a problem. For all intents, I think this too is pretty silly- they are not publishing any of the older material, they are not making any money whatever on it, & those of us who do 'reproduce' the material, do it for non-profit reasons. On this point, I have not yet been answered. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:38:25 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Web page... >In a message dated 98-04-13 22:10:43 EDT, you write: > >>likely that I will have to close down (not entirely, but to such an extent >>that it might as well be considered as thus) my site due to some questions >>I had asked Tantalus, and the answers I have recieved. > >do tell.............. heh, I wouldn't want to break any copyright infringements by quoting Rob Miracle now would I? :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:38:59 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Pictures Does anyone have any topdown pictures of the vehicles that are in t2k, and that are not copyrighted? - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:56:18 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Play by e-mail(PBEM) Merc2000 wardlow wrote: > > Very fast I used to work as a communications Hardwiring Tech. I hand wired more > than 2000 RS232 connections in 2 months. And in Heating Systems and Water > purification you have to wir the controls. Also did I forget to mention I'm > trained in Advanced Radio Communications and Code Scramblers? > "Vlad" > > Peter Vieth wrote: > > > wardlow wrote: > > > > > > Oh I also forgot to mention that I am a level three fencing coach and I am > > > also proficient with almost every weapon from pike to poison, broadsword > > > to Archery ( I used to shoot 461 average with barebow in competition.) I > > > also have trades tickets in Heating Systems, and Water purification > > > systems. > > > "Vlad" once again (Last time Honest!) > > > P.S. I like to write comedy. > > > > > Fiddlesticks. How fast can ya strip wire? > > > > -- > > Peter Vieth <-- favorite to win Redwood City Duct Tape competition. > > That the competition has never been held and I came up with it is of no > > consequence. > > Fitek@ix.netcom.com > > IGZ Handle: Fitek > > ICQ UIN: 3660410 > > Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html I can program a VCR!!! - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 08:58:25 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: Web page... At 05:15 PM 4/14/98 -0400, Scott David Orr wrote: >At 12:00 AM 4/14/98 -0700, Peter Vieth wrote: > >>But if summarizing some of the rules is possibly a copyright >>infringement, then I fear for those of us who have material that falls >>even on the borderline. > >Well, it most assuredly isn't--copyright protects the specific form of a >work, not any derivates (trademark law is another issue, IF GDW trademarked >some of the TW:2000 terms). But you might want to ask a lawyer about it. Copyright most certainly extends to derivative works. I will be posting a policy statement from the licensing people sometime today. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:15:57 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: Web page... At 04:35 PM 4/14/98 -0800, Saul Basgen wrote: > >>What really burns me up is that they get the game and just sit on it, doing >>nothing but harrassing people who put up information on it, attempting to keep >>it alive! I don't think we have harassed any one, and I feel we have been one of the more flexible companies with regards to fan created materials. The areas under current concern are were verbatim copies are being made or derivative works are begin made. >> What was the point of Tantalus purchasing the rights >>for Twilight 2000 if they don't intend to produce it? > > I don't know, I wish I did. I have said the same such things to Rob >Miracle, and am waiting for his response. The owner of Tantalus, along with most of the employees are gamers and fans of the former GDW products. Tantalus also had the electronic rights to most of the GDW product line, including the RPGs. When GDW went under, we purchased the rights to a) keep them from going away all together and b) allow us to continue to have the titles for electronic games, and c) with the hopes of some day either by our own doings or by licensing print rights to a third party continue to publish the game. Tantalus is first and foremost the developers of online gaming software and we have to service that mission first. >> And why is it wrong for >>a person (or people) to offer suggestions and new ideas on the game so that >>new people might become interested in it? > >That's not a problem. It's the reproduction of the old books that they see >as a problem. For all intents, I think this too is pretty silly- they are >not publishing any of the older material, they are not making any money >whatever on it, & those of us who do 'reproduce' the material, do it for >non-profit reasons. Its not wrong for a person to offer suggestions and new ideas. Tantalus is very net friendly to allow fan created works as long as they contain the disclaimer which was posted a while back. I'm going to make a policy post later today that will include the disclaimer in it. As far as it being silly, maybe, but that is the way the legal system has directed these issues. In previous court cases which are used as benchmarks for future cases (precedents), companys who do not defend their copyrights, even if they are not actively publishing something risk loosing it, regardless if its for non-profit reasons. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:07:51 PDT From: "Donald Harden" Subject: PBEM Merc 2000 Hey folks, I have gotten a great response from people who want to play, but I still have 2 or 3 spots that are available for players. Any one who is interested should e-mail me at: PatronMilo@hotmail.com I am looking for people who wish to play a variety of possibilities. Thank you for your time Don ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:11:34 -0400 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Usage policy statement delayed I'm working with the licensing department to create a FAQ on Tantalus's policies regarding our role playing products. I have been delayed and it will be early next week before I can get the FAQ out to the lists. It will answer a lot of the questions that have been circulating lately. Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:41:44 +0300 From: Pietu Subject: Afganistan ground tactics Hi pals! I´m GM in MERC:2000 scenario where players are tasked to rescue couple of Red Cros s employes in Afganistan. I´m now wondering what ground tactics real Afganistan guerillas used in Russian invasion at 1980-1989 and what other ground tactics are possibble in country where all terrain is rock, mountain or desert ? If anybody have some other (war stories, vehicle, tactics, maps or other intresting) information about Afganistan-Russian war at 1980-1989 (nowadays information also), I´m glad to hear it. With thanks. Mr. Pietu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:41:06 -0400 From: Emperor Palpatine Subject: Re: Afganistan ground tactics Well, obviously, the Afghan rebels were guerillas, so you can draw your own conclusions. In mountainous country like that, armor doesn't do so well. A lot of tanks died because rebels with AT weapons would wait on high points overlooking narrow roads and simply wait for armor to roll by. The Afghans employed a lot of ambush tactics. There's very little if any foliage in the country, but when there WAS, the rebels would usually dig in behind it and wait for a convoy to roll by. They also employed the terrain to their advantage. The country is hilly, which provides lots of stuff to hide behind. Generally, the rebels weren't adverse to sacrificing some of their men. These were fanatics. I've heard stories about them ambushing small armored convoys. They'd let the lead elements roll by - BTR's, jeeps, that sort of thing - and wait for a tank. Then, men with AT weapons would assault the thing. If they killed it, they killed it. If they all died, they all died. This is to say nothing of all the aircraft they dropped. Once the Afghans were outfitted with Stingers, they proved to be quite capable with them. They employed the same "hide in the rocks and shoot" tactics that worked so well against armor. Funny thing, I just saw a PBS special about Russian pilots. Some of their chopper pilots, vets from Afghanistan, spoke about how the rebels would simply hide near a base sometimes, wait for a bunch of choppers to show up, massacre many of them, and then split. The pressure was always on the Red Army to root these guys out of the hills. To my knowledge, there were few, if any, stand up battles in the country. There were many raids by both sides. The Soviets knew what they were in for, and they knew how to fight that type of war, though their execution wasn't always optimal. Basically, think of it like Vietnam (yeah, yeah, I know it's cliche...). The war was very much like our own experience there. Like Vietnam, the terrain of Afghanistan dictated the tactics used by the rebels, but essentially, the idea was the same. It's funny you ask, because here's an article here you might find useful, with a link that, I hope, will provide inspiration. Good gaming. *** Warring Afghan factions to meet for peace talks Rival Afghan factions have decided to meet in Islamabad on Saturday for initial peace talks, a U.N. official said Wednesday. James NGoby, deputy head of the U.N. Special Mission for Afghanistan, said the meeting between representatives of the Taleban Islamic movement and the opposition northern alliance was expected to begin on Saturday morning. The steering committee meeting aims to pave the way for a larger peace commission of Islamic scholars. The Taleban control two thirds of Afghanistan and have demanded international recognition as the legitimate government in Kabul. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2553835168-ba2 - -- Ash: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm doing fine... Mirror Image: Hey Ash, we just cut up our girlfriend with a chainsaw, does that sound "fine" to you??? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:48:21 EDT From: KAPPAABZ Subject: Re: Afganistan ground tactics In a message dated 98-04-23 05:06:19 EDT, you write: > I´m now wondering what ground tactics >real Afganistan guerillas used in Russian invasion at 1980-1989 and what >other ground tactics are possibble in country where all terrain is rock, >mountain or desert ? The discovery channel did some shows on the Hind and SU-25 a while ago which were really good. The soviet and afghani tactics were detailed................. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:07:09 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: On life It has been more than one week since the promised proclamation of Twilight copyright laws. I'm a patient person. I can't guess at thier intentions of delaying the release of these laws, this doesn't matter to much. What I do see however, is a growing belief that Twilight is dead and gone, people folding thier hands and saying it's over- the camel's back has been broken. The fate of the game lies in thier hands, but our passions for the game, are in our own. Let us not numb ourselves, looking to the ground kicking dirt... and mumble hopelessly, but instead hold onto this simple thing that we all have some interest in; a game ... Twilight: 2000 It is nothing more- but it of itself, in that thing that it is, stands as one of the best. They cannot decide whether it lives or dies within us, but they can decide whether it will survive to see others. It is in this decision, that the future of the game lies- not for us, but for any 12 year old who is in love with the military.... Saul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:18:13 -0700 From: Steven Dennis Subject: Re: Afganistan ground tactics Rambo 3 should fit the bill too. KAPPAABZ wrote: > In a message dated 98-04-23 05:06:19 EDT, you write: > > > I´m now wondering what ground tactics > >real Afganistan guerillas used in Russian invasion at 1980-1989 and what > >other ground tactics are possibble in country where all terrain is rock, > >mountain or desert ? > > The discovery channel did some shows on the Hind and SU-25 a while ago which > were really good. The soviet and afghani tactics were > detailed................. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:53:41 -0700 From: Steven Dennis Subject: Re: On life Lighten up Saul, you sound like they took away your birthday. Saul Basgen wrote: > It has been more than one week since the promised proclamation of Twilight > copyright laws. I'm a patient person. > > I can't guess at thier intentions of delaying the release of these laws, > this doesn't matter to much. > > What I do see however, is a growing belief that Twilight is dead and gone, > people folding thier hands and saying it's over- the camel's back has been > broken. > > The fate of the game lies in thier hands, but our passions for the game, > are in our own. Let us not numb ourselves, looking to the ground kicking > dirt... and mumble hopelessly, but instead hold onto this simple thing that > we all have some interest in; a game ... Twilight: 2000 > > It is nothing more- but it of itself, in that thing that it is, stands as > one of the best. > > They cannot decide whether it lives or dies within us, but they can decide > whether it will survive to see others. It is in this decision, that the > future of the game lies- not for us, but for any 12 year old who is in love > with the military.... > > Saul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:26:48 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: Web page... Rob Miracle wrote: > > At 04:35 PM 4/14/98 -0800, Saul Basgen wrote: > > > >>What really burns me up is that they get the game and just sit on it, doing > >>nothing but harrassing people who put up information on it, attempting to > keep > >>it alive! > > I don't think we have harassed any one, and I feel we have been one of the > more flexible companies with regards to fan created materials. The areas > under current concern are were verbatim copies are being made or derivative > works are begin made. > > >> What was the point of Tantalus purchasing the rights > >>for Twilight 2000 if they don't intend to produce it? > > > > I don't know, I wish I did. I have said the same such things to Rob > >Miracle, and am waiting for his response. > > The owner of Tantalus, along with most of the employees are gamers and fans > of the former GDW products. Tantalus also had the electronic rights to > most of the GDW product line, including the RPGs. When GDW went under, we > purchased the rights to a) keep them from going away all together and b) > allow us to continue to have the titles for electronic games, and c) with > the hopes of some day either by our own doings or by licensing print rights > to a third party continue to publish the game. Tantalus is first and > foremost the developers of online gaming software and we have to service > that mission first. > > >> And why is it wrong for > >>a person (or people) to offer suggestions and new ideas on the game so that > >>new people might become interested in it? > > > >That's not a problem. It's the reproduction of the old books that they see > >as a problem. For all intents, I think this too is pretty silly- they are > >not publishing any of the older material, they are not making any money > >whatever on it, & those of us who do 'reproduce' the material, do it for > >non-profit reasons. > > Its not wrong for a person to offer suggestions and new ideas. Tantalus is > very net friendly to allow fan created works as long as they contain the > disclaimer which was posted a while back. I'm going to make a policy post > later today that will include the disclaimer in it. > > As far as it being silly, maybe, but that is the way the legal system has > directed these issues. In previous court cases which are used as > benchmarks for future cases (precedents), companys who do not defend their > copyrights, even if they are not actively publishing something risk loosing > it, regardless if its for non-profit reasons. > > Rob I think it is important to realize that nothing has really happened yet and I stress moderation, but here's my rant (some parts may seem obvious, but hear me out): We're not some movement to take the copyright from Tantalus-- we're merely trying to involve ourselves in a game we enjoy. No one has posted parts of the t2k and merc:2000 books word-for-word. Certain rules and tables are there, but not verbatim. You don't see Microsoft or whoever going after people who talk about information they have published in their books. The nature of role-playing games is that they are public. When we put information up we're not trying to undermine a game's publisher, just merely filling a void in the support from the publisher (or owner, whatever). As for supplements being written, well, let me say this: TSR, for all the jokes about them (T$R), does not seem to have a problem with the countless supplements out there. To say they have lost control of the copyright would be absurd. I'm sure they are still making a fortune off the AD&D line. While Tantalus may do nothing we're ready to move ahead now. So far yes, Tantalus has not really intervened in our activities, and yes, there have been some e-mails basically saying "screw the copyrights, copy item x." I don't expect the situation between us and Tantalus to change much, but I wouldn't want to see Tantalus act like FOX with the Simpson's sites (of course, posting sound clips, movies, and pictures is obviously illegal. I don't think any of our sites has gone even close to that far). - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:29:10 -0700 From: Peter Vieth Subject: Re: On life Saul Basgen wrote: > > It has been more than one week since the promised proclamation of Twilight > copyright laws. I'm a patient person. > > I can't guess at thier intentions of delaying the release of these laws, > this doesn't matter to much. > > What I do see however, is a growing belief that Twilight is dead and gone, > people folding thier hands and saying it's over- the camel's back has been > broken. > > The fate of the game lies in thier hands, but our passions for the game, > are in our own. Let us not numb ourselves, looking to the ground kicking > dirt... and mumble hopelessly, but instead hold onto this simple thing that > we all have some interest in; a game ... Twilight: 2000 > > It is nothing more- but it of itself, in that thing that it is, stands as > one of the best. > > They cannot decide whether it lives or dies within us, but they can decide > whether it will survive to see others. It is in this decision, that the > future of the game lies- not for us, but for any 12 year old who is in love > with the military.... > > Saul Maybe they think if they promise something and nothing happens for a while we will forget. Hell, it worked for Clinton. - -- Peter Vieth Fitek@ix.netcom.com IGZ Handle: Fitek ICQ UIN: 3660410 Web page: http://www.netcom.com/~Fitek/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:23:25 +0100 From: "Bors Robert" Subject: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.40 (NDS) signoff twilight2000 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 05:58:06 -0800 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: On life >Lighten up Saul, you sound like they took away your birthday. Heh, no. What they have taken is only my labour, a great deal of my time- and energy; time that I had spent thinking that it would benifit many, to find that it will now benefit none. It is only a game- simply it is difficult to see before me ruins instead of a building, to find my hands wrought with destruction when they were tools for creation. A game, yes- it is nothing more; but it was the act of creating that I found myself in, to and for whatever doesn't so much matter.... it was the creation of an individual and seperate idea, while adhering to a 'blueprint'.... Though it's mark of seperation was not so large As I had meant to imply, I am not woefully filled with depression- unable to work, or be with my friends. I am just fine, heh, and my birthday is some two weeks away :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:30:53 -0400 From: Emperor Palpatine Subject: Rebirth The basic premise is this: the game is not lost and gone in limbo, waiting for somebody to pick up the ball. The fact is this: Tantalus has the rights to the game. Officially, if you stretch the point, the game is not "dead". It's on LONG hiatus, waiting to be reborn. I say this: here we are, all fans, waiting for Tantalus to do something. We should not give up until someone there is inspired to create more Twilight material. There's a new generation now, and they're always looking for a new game. The timeline could be quickly re-writen again to make it relevant. In real life, steps are being taken to admit Poland and the Czech Republic into NATO. Rumors are that the Russians aren't very happy about this. Whilst this will very probably develop into nothing, it wouldn't take much to imagine a scenario where tensions escalate, then spiral out of control - and there's your new game. Tailor the rest of the world material - which there wasn't a whole lot of, save for some of the modules - and you've got a game. I had a ton of material for Twilight, some of which WOULD have appeared in Challenge. Dammit, I want it published. And I want my game back. I urge Tantalus to take this license and run with it. Or, try an experiment! One little book! We're told that some of the original designers have a stake in Tantalus, but if that's the case, then what are they protecting? The game's not making any cash for them now - it's not being marketed! Tantalus, it's your turn... (Orinn Ladd, where's your new web page?) - -- Ash: I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm doing fine... Mirror Image: Hey Ash, we just cut up our girlfriend with a chainsaw, does that sound "fine" to you??? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:10:25 -0700 From: Steven Dennis Subject: Re: On life Ok, you sounded sort of dispondent in your letter. I thought making light of the situation would maybe make you step back and say 'what am I so worried about', but I can see that wasn't needed. Happy Birthday. Saul Basgen wrote: > >Lighten up Saul, you sound like they took away your birthday. > > Heh, no. What they have taken is only my labour, a great deal of my time- > and energy; time that I had spent thinking that it would benifit many, to > find that it will now benefit none. > It is only a game- simply it is difficult to see before me ruins instead > of a building, to find my hands wrought with destruction when they were > tools for creation. > A game, yes- it is nothing more; but it was the act of creating that I > found myself in, to and for whatever doesn't so much matter.... it was the > creation of an individual and seperate idea, while adhering to a > 'blueprint'.... Though it's mark of seperation was not so large > As I had meant to imply, I am not woefully filled with depression- unable > to work, or be with my friends. I am just fine, heh, and my birthday is > some two weeks away :) ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1998 #21 ************************************