twilight2000-digest Wednesday, October 8 1997 Volume 1996 : Number 059 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack New Weapons Re: PzKw Maus Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Intro (was: Re: Merc show) Web page update Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Re: Merc show Question Lynx M2k mission Re: Lynx Re: M2k mission Re: Question Re: Question Re: Question Re: Lynx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:50:38 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack > Horsedung. In 1965 elements of the Seventh Cav ran into two >regiments of NVA in the Battle of ia drang. In 1975- Saigon fell to >North Vietnamese tanks and infantrymen. > American aircraft were shot down by NVA armed forces and >time after Marines and soldiers found their greatest opposition >in North Vietnamese divisions and regiments. After the Tet Offensive >what military structure the VC has was rendered to dust and even >that was supported by a multidivisional attack on Khe Sanh and the >Central Highlands. > The VC always played second banana in the conquest of the >South by Hanoi and were only tolerated because it tied down enemy >resources. After 1968 and Phoenix the VC for all intensive purpsoes >were cut down to just a facade of propagandists for various left >wingers in Europe and America. You're knowledge in this area far exceeds mine own. You're discussion seems logicall and fine, but in any case I would like to see the numbers. My father was in Vietnam, as an engineer. The only times his platoon ever came under fire was by VC. The VC killed a good deal of his friends and soldiers. It is hard for me to believe, and my father, that the VC were just, 'a facade of propagandists'. It's difficult for alot of soldiers who lost thier lives to this facade, to agree with you as well. >> This is good and fine... let me ask you this: Who won, the Romans or >> the Jews? > > Roman commanders never expected Theodore Herzl but neither >did the Arabs. This is good a fine. Stalin never expected to die too, I'm sure, but so? My point is this: The Jews, traditionaly, have engaged in partisan warfare. You had stated that they were not effective, so then I ask you, if indeed they were/are not affected, have the Romans defeated them yet? Who have the Jews not been able to defeat? And what tactics, have these armies that the Jews have been unsucessful in defeating, used? >> So if the Soviets really really tried they would have won huh? Well I >> certainly hope so. > > Yep. They would have and there wasn't a damn thing anybody >could do. They tied less than half the resources of what we had >in Vietnam nor did they waged any serious air campaign against enemy >supply lines or base areas. I disagree. There was alot everyone could do. If the Soviet Union had moved it's soldiers in Afghanastan, it would have left pretty sizable holes in thier front lines. I think, that the baltics, at the least, would have had another fight for independence.. probably the Polish too. Not to mention the internal unrest caused by a war that was getting no where. And they lost less than half the men the US >lost in Vietnam in only ten years. Indeed. I would say that this was wisdom on thier part, wouldn't you? Say they put into Afghanastan the same amount of resources as America put into Vietnam, wouldn't it be plausable then, that there casualties would be just as high then, as the Americans? > > Fact- when national leadership believe a certain group of people >are a threat to the state or at least to them said group becomes >extinct. Please tell me of a group of people where genocide has accomplished it's goal. > If you go to war- one must be willing to completely crushing the >enemy's ability to wage war. Not only killing his troops and destroying >his weapons systems. But chop supply lines, pummel infrastructure to >dust, blast means of production into free atoms, whatever it takes to >make sure said enemy is not a threat to your objectives- whatever they >may be. Killing everything, animals, plants, contaminating water, and soil... I don't think these things are necessary in any war. In the true sense of what you are saying, to destroy an enemies ability to wage war is to destroy that enemy completely. That means destroying the entire population. Could there ever be any justification for that? > War is nothing more than state sanctioned murder. That's right. If you can >achieve your goals without out the mind boggling numbers of dead well >bully for you. If not better roll up your sleeves and start making >acheiving a kill ratio that is better than 1:1. But since war is >terrible there are better ways to deal with conflicts between states >than the bayonet. It's called diplomacy and negotiation. Yes. But how can you negotiate with an enemy that you have completely wiped out? _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:31:56 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: New Weapons Just letting you guys know, I've posted some new weapons on my web page, made available by Chris Brody. http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Weapons.html _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:42:52 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: PzKw Maus In a message dated 97-09-26 05:52:58 EDT, bdmahan@earthlink.net (Mark) writes: << HCS Hollow Charge Shell >> is that the same as a "squash head" round? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 04:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) In a message dated 97-09-24 05:18:12 EDT, mikechoi@SoCA.com (Mad Mike) writes: << In both cases the United States government in its inifite wisdom (and often the apparent lack of) placed pressure on both F. Batista and A. Somoza and cutting off economic/military support for both regimes and giving moral support to the Sandinistas and Castro's forces. In both cases the weight of pressure caused their respective governments to collapse and in both cases relatively friendly authoritarian regimes and were replaced with governments that were hostile to the United States. Something that's considered non-Kosher by even the most dimmest of State Department cookie pushers. >> But they started out as guerilla movements correct? And what about support from foreign governments to said movements? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 23:57:57 -0700 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > But they started out as guerilla movements correct? And what about support > from foreign governments to said movements? If you mean that certain states' governments have their origins as guerillas- yes. they have, fortuantely, have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and instead of adhering top some bullshit idea of a "people's war" or a "dictatorship of the proleteriat" and other spectic tank dialectic... Foreign governments occasionally find aiding guerilla movements as porxy regimes. These third parties are very interested in destabilizing regimes that are unfriendly to them and are thus interested in replacing them with better ones. The jackass Carter (who should have stuck to bulding houses in Atlanta to begin with) found that by cutting off Somoza from US aid he could get a government in Managua that was "kinder and gentler" but instead a bunch of rojos marched in and set up shop and throughout the 80s sucked up to Moscow. Batista was a serious miscalculation by Ike and Dulles men who prided themselves on being individuals who knew which side the bread was buttered and figured that Cuba needed a new head honcho and boom- Castro got himself in power due to US sanctions. Guerillas are useful to third parties either by aggravating an unstable political system and forcing it to collapse or B)tie down a country' resources, weaken it and allow it to be invaded by an outside power or just plain C) general mind fucking in the affairs of state. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in His great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of the enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them."- Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest, "The Good Soldier Schweik" by Jaroslav Hacek ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:18:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Guerilla War, is very very easy to do. Hell if just us wanted to I bet in three or four years we could over throw America. All you need to do is start by showing whats wrong with the country in little papers that get passed out on the side of the roads. Then tell some wacked out guys, (like ol' Timmy boy) that the goverment is trying to do something really really weird, like take away the right to bare arms. They go out in the first wave causing choas, and general damage, but , we the people the leaders still have our hands clean (While they do that we and a few new guys go raid sporting goods stores and pawn shops for extra weapons.) Then while all that is going on you just give druggy kids the idea that if America is over thrown all the teenage rights they don't have in america they will have in the new country. You might not get all of them at first but in the end they will all do it since it's the cool thing to do. Then after all that you get some people, doesn't really matter who, to go and raid national guard and reserve armors, to get more weapons and tow rockets and stuff (don't us them just yet though hang on until after the war and keep thier presence real quite, or say it is a diffrent movment that took them.). After that you make a few more bombs and blow up some buildings all across the country at the same time, you wait for other groups to sprout up and while the goverment is busy trying to take them down, you go and get more ams from other places, and talk to other country's about supporting your movement (Don't tell your hence men that you are getting help from other country's, You want to make it look like this is just a peoples movement like Castro did) Then when it all starts going for the other underground movments you blow up the presdent or start to capture and kill members of the comgress who don't agree with your ways. Then after that you send your manifesto to the president and let your group become known. The country should be pretty choatic by know and it would be pretty easy to just walk in and take it you're thinking but don't. Let some other movment do it so they all get killed in the first acts of retaileation. Then when all is pretty calm and some groups have claimed it all as thiers you go in with all the weapons and men you have saved over the years and just kick the ever living crap out of them. Then you can enslave the people and rule america. There are some things I left out like when to start raiding and capturing Army, and airfoce bases but that would be one of the last things you should do since they are very heavily gaurded. Just my idea sorry it got kinda long John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:19:37 -0700 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > Guerilla War, is very very easy to do. Easy to get yourself killed- you mean. Organizations that try and butt heads agsinst real armies usually find their party emembership roster depleted PFQ. > Hell if just us wanted to I bet in > three or four years we could over throw America. All you need to do is start > by showing whats wrong with the country in little papers that get passed out > on the side of the roads. Again- that strategy doesn't work in state like the United States where the country is governed by certain democratic principles and where everbody is held accoutnable to the rule of law. At least so goes theory - -but it should remember the political elite in this country cannot commit the Machiavellian antics without somebody (and with American media- as looney and as idiotic those newspapermen are they always find out) knowing something and that tidboit makes its way to the six o' clock news and then the subsequent Senate and House hearings. Guerillas, terrorism, whatever- often exists just to receive public attention in America not much is given to a bunch of loons and nor is there the environment to support an organization that exists to overthrow the government... Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in His great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of the enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them."- Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest, "The Good Soldier Schweik" by Jaroslav Hacek ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:07:51 -0400 (EDT) From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) In a message dated 97-09-28 11:38:18 EDT, you write: > Just my idea sorry it got kinda long um............what? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Merc show Greetings: Did anyone else out there endure that show on UPN last night, _Soldier of Fortune, inc_? Seriously though, I thought it was going to be atrocious, but it was actually semi-decent. This series could provide some good M2k material. OTOH, if I were to start watching the show, it would jack my television viewing quotient up to about three hours per week. Scary. ;) - -C ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:12:43 -0400 (EDT) From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Merc show In a message dated 97-10-04 04:28:44 EDT, you write: > Did anyone else out there endure that show on UPN last night, > _Soldier of Fortune, inc_? Seriously though, I thought it was going to be > atrocious, but it was actually semi-decent. This series could provide some > good M2k material. OTOH, if I were to start watching the show, it would > jack my television viewing quotient up to about three hours per week. huh? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Merc show Greetings: > huh? "Huh?" what? - -C ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:52:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Merc show In a message dated 97-10-04 09:10:34 EDT, you write: << Did anyone else out there endure that show on UPN last night, _Soldier of Fortune, inc_? Seriously though, I thought it was going to be atrocious, but it was actually semi-decent. This series could provide some good M2k material. OTOH, if I were to start watching the show, it would jack my television viewing quotient up to about three hours per week. >> Does it have a famous rapper on it, or is that WB? Stink Boy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:07:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Merc show Greetings: > Does it have a famous rapper on it, or is that WB? The villain in this episode was the guy who played "Finn" (I think) in _Last Man Standing_. I did not recognize anyone else. OTOH, I don't keep up with the rap music scene, so that's not saying much. The premise of this episode was that the "villain", a former green beret (of course) was a UN advisor sent down to Haiti to oversee training of the police force. Said villain gets power hungry and turns the Haitian police force into his own private goon squad. The US government wants the situation quietly rectified, so hires the mercs to take care of business. -C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 13:23:00 -0700 From: Chris Brody Subject: Re: Merc show Christopher Callahan wrote: > > Greetings: > > Did anyone else out there endure that show on UPN last night, > _Soldier of Fortune, inc_? Seriously though, I thought it was going to be > atrocious, but it was actually semi-decent. This series could provide some > good M2k material. OTOH, if I were to start watching the show, it would > jack my television viewing quotient up to about three hours per week. > Scary. ;) > > -C While not trying to sound like a complete idiot, could you please tell me more about this _SOF,inc_ show...I have heard nothing about it until now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 17:12:45 -0400 From: Derek Klein Subject: Re: Merc show Greetings: I'm new to the list, but I've been playing Twilight 2000 since '85 (y'know back in the good old days of the Cold War). This seems like a fairly low-traffic list. Who else is out there? Is there a FAQ sheet? I caught the premiere of SOF a couple of weeks ago. It was a very tedious introduction to the team as each member was personally recruited by the unit CO. Then they had to go rescue some POWs in Iraq. I made the same observation that I made about the movie "Sneakers": Every character appears pre-occupied with his/her own schtick, attitude or agenda. They all have chips on their shoulders. Each member seems so over-burdened with thier own psychological hang-ups or haunted by the demons in thier past that it becomes virtually impossible for them to function as a team. This reminds me of what happened when I used the T:2000 conversion rules in "Danger International" (one of the original Hero System games). The Hero rules allow for greater depth in character generation including the option to adopt physical and pysch limitations. The Referee must keep a tight lid on that though, or he winds up with a team of highly trained but otherwise pathetic wretches. The action in SOF was OK, the acting was marginal but way too melodramatic. I was disappointed, but I'll keep watching in the hopes that it will improve with time. A far better small-unit action show (my opinion only) is "Pensacola: Wings of Gold." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:50:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Merc show Greetings: > While not trying to sound like a complete idiot, could you please tell > me more about this _SOF,inc_ show...I have heard nothing about it until > now. I happened to turn on the television to catch the hourly weather report that the local UPN affiliate airs when I caught a commercial for this show a couple days before its scheduled time. I had never heard of it before, so I have no idea how long it ahs been on the air. The writing was *tolerable*, the acting was, well, what one would expect from something like this, the production values were certainly decent. The plot was slightly Mission:Impossible-esque, but all-in-all it was okay. The merc team includes, among others: the token female (whose role was to try to seduce the target, of course), the token member of a minority group (whose major parts consisted of beating people senseless, of course), and the obligatory Brit (whose role was to make smarmy remarks, of course). Can we say "stereotype"? ;) In any event, the trailer for next (this) week's episode has the team trying to stop an assassin who was mistakenly ordered to kill Fidel Castro or some such nonsense. Yes, I will probably watch it if I'm home. :) - -C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 23:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Merc show In a message dated 97-10-06 20:01:08 EDT, you write: > The action in SOF was OK, the acting was marginal but way too melodramatic haven't seen it.............. but as an actor.......when i do, i'll give you my take on it's Theatrical merit ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 20:51:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Intro (was: Re: Merc show) Greetings: > I'm new to the list, but I've been playing Twilight 2000 since '85 (y'know > back in the good old days of the Cold War). 1986, myself. > This seems like a fairly > low-traffic list. Very low traffic. > Who else is out there? Is there a FAQ sheet? Very few that are active, anyway. Fresh blood appears occasionally, though. I discovered the list archives sometime around last Fall, I think, and subscribed not long after that. The topic of creating a FAQ sheet has come up, it has never come to fruition (AFAIK). What would you like to know? The typical questions are (1) Did Armour XXI ever come out (no, it was written, but never published), (2) Who bought the rights to T2k (Tantalus), (3) Is Tantalus ever going to do anything with T2k (Ever since they bought it up, they have been saying "absolutely, as soon as we finish this big project we're working on"; of course they've been saying that for what, a couple of years now?) (4) Is Tantalus going to do anything with the other titles they bought from GDW (Dark Conspiracy, and wasn't there one more?) (answer: see question #3) (5) Are there any T2k/M2k web sites out there (it seems like half the people on this list either currently have at least a page, or have had one in the past. My site is at http://www.techrefuge.com/hector/ , though I haven't updated it all Summer) Did I forget any, old timers? There was a FAQ list on one of the DC web pages that pretty well summed up the situation (at that time, though I don't think that much has changed since). I think it was at Ian's web site, but I'm not sure. - -C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:05:11 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Web page update Just letting you folks know, I've revamped my page a little, added in some more new weapons, and have a portion of a response I recieved from Loren K. Wiseman about Twilight: 2000's copy right future (suffice it to say, look to Tantalus, as Chris just pointed out). The reason I've been doing this lately, is because I believe that we can keep Twilight: 2000 alive via the web. If we could post the source books on the Internet, that would at least keep current fans, and I do believe mayhap bring in new ones as well. Of course, this all is pretty unlikely, but I'd like to continue the struggle started around a year ago when Tantalus bought the rights to T2K, Merc, and Traveler 2300, even if the odds are so staggering. _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:30:33 -0400 (EDT) From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Re: Merc show In a message dated 97-10-07 03:10:52 EDT, you write: > Yes, I will probably watch it if I'm home. Darn......i have to work....... :{ I really hate to miss it............... shucks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 12:17:29 -0700 From: Chris Brody Subject: Re: Merc show Christopher Callahan wrote: > > Greetings: > > > While not trying to sound like a complete idiot, could you please tell > > me more about this _SOF,inc_ show...I have heard nothing about it until > > now. > > I happened to turn on the television to catch the hourly weather report > that the local UPN affiliate airs when I caught a commercial for this show > a couple days before its scheduled time. I had never heard of it before, > so I have no idea how long it ahs been on the air. > > The writing was *tolerable*, the acting was, well, what one would expect > from something like this, the production values were certainly decent. The > plot was slightly Mission:Impossible-esque, but all-in-all it was okay. > The merc team includes, among others: the token female (whose role was to > try to seduce the target, of course), the token member of a minority group > (whose major parts consisted of beating people senseless, of course), > and the obligatory Brit (whose role was to make smarmy remarks, of > course). Can we say "stereotype"? ;) > > In any event, the trailer for next (this) week's episode has the team > trying to stop an assassin who was mistakenly ordered to kill Fidel > Castro or some such nonsense. Yes, I will probably watch it if I'm home. > :) > > -C Fellow TW2000 Players, I am new to this list as well, and don't really know what's going on...This show seems interesting, if not rather low budget (?). Anyway, I would appreciate any further info on this or any other TW-related happenings, as I too have been playing the game for quite a while now. If anyone gets info on any new releases (if any ever appear!) pleases let me know also - I appreciate it !:) ~CB ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 12:35:33 -0700 From: Hale Subject: Re: Merc show Chris Brody wrote: > While not trying to sound like a complete idiot, could you please tell > me more about this _SOF,inc_ show...I have heard nothing about it until > now. Me to. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 04:41:01 -0500 From: "Malachi Clark" Subject: Question Hi there, I am new to the list, but here goes... I was thinking of starting a new Twilight game, and was wondering if anyone had ever played a game other than post World War 3? Perhaps World War 2? Or perhaps a war that never happened? Or just some operations that resulted in something more interesting? If you have played any of these, or others, please share. I would be interested in any ideas that you could share. I want to start a game the may be set in the past some time, as opposed to the future. Ja Mata, Mal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 00:15:15 -0400 (EDT) From: KAPPAABZ@aol.com Subject: Lynx I was wondering something..... for all of you with twilight sites............ do you have active links to the other ones who also have twilight sites? if not...........Y don'tcha do so................. tryin to help Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: M2k mission Greetings All: I read yesterday of some events which occurred last week in the former Jugoslavia that sounded interesting. Apparently some supporters of the former Serb leader Karadzic were broadcasting programs which were sympathetic to his position. The UN didn't like that, so "Peacekeeping Forces" stormed 4 television stations and turned them over to current Serb President Plavsic. Sounds like a Merc mission to me; I am surprised the UN would be overtly involved. - -C PS- As far as I can tell, the broadcasters were guilty of nothing more than airing "distortions" about the Dayton Peace Accords. Obviously I have been confused, as I thought that securing the safety and personal freedoms of the Croatian, Serbian, and Muslim people was, y'know, THE POINT OF US BEING OVER THERE. Apparently one has the right to freedom of speech so long as any and all statements are pre-approved by the proper United Nations Commission. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Lynx >I was wondering something..... >for all of you with twilight sites............ >do you have active links to the other ones who also have twilight sites? >if not...........Y don'tcha do so................. > I do agree whole heartedly that all Twilight page creators/mainters should maintain some sort of Twilight: 2000 web ring. >tryin to help Well, I've got acouple of links to Twilight sitez, but none of them are active. There are more sitez out there than I have links to, but they are not, and have not, been active for at least a year. I mailed the creator of each Twilight web page I found (with a good deal of help from Brian Pittman), and alot of the mail was returned to me as undeliverable. When I did get a response, or saw that the page has been updated within acouple of months, I've included it. http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/TwiLinks.html If anyone knows of any other pages that are updated, I'd be happy to post them. _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:44:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: M2k mission >PS- As far as I can tell, the broadcasters were guilty of nothing more >than airing "distortions" about the Dayton Peace Accords. Obviously I have >been confused, as I thought that securing the safety and personal freedoms >of the Croatian, Serbian, and Muslim people was, y'know, THE POINT OF US >BEING OVER THERE. Apparently one has the right to freedom of speech so >long as any and all statements are pre-approved by the proper United >Nations Commission. heh, yeah. Unfortunatly, though they claim to be the saints of the post-industrial world, they're just the same as thier predecesors. The tool of the Imperialist with a different name, is still the tool of the Imperialist... _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: Question >Hi there, > I am new to the list, but here goes... I was thinking of starting a new >Twilight game, and was wondering if anyone had ever played a game other than >post World War 3? Perhaps World War 2? Or perhaps a war that never >happened? Or just some operations that resulted in something more >interesting? If you have played any of these, or others, please share. I >would be interested in any ideas that you could share. I want to start a >game the may be set in the past some time, as opposed to the future. I believe there was a roleplaying game awhile back set in Vietnam, or maybe that was just GURPS. In any event, I'm sure that would make for a pretty exiting game (likewise would Afghanastan). In any case, you may want to check out GURPS, which although I've never played it, I understand that it can take place over a variety of different time periods, whether past present or future. _____________________________________________________________________ http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 04:46:32 -0400 From: Derek Klein Subject: Re: Question At 09:41 AM 10/7/1997 +0000, you wrote: >Hi there, > I am new to the list, but here goes... I was thinking of starting a new >Twilight game, and was wondering if anyone had ever played a game other than >post World War 3? Perhaps World War 2? Or perhaps a war that never >happened? Or just some operations that resulted in something more >interesting? If you have played any of these, or others, please share. I >would be interested in any ideas that you could share. I want to start a >game the may be set in the past some time, as opposed to the future. > >Ja Mata, >Mal > > > Palladium (I think)used to make a game called Recon. It was a Vietnam-era setting and had decent source material. There was a sequel supplement called Advanced Recon that entailed Vietnam vets signing on as Mercs in West Africa and Central America. The rules were very basic, but provided great background info when we converted to using the T:2000 rules for running the same scenarios. Sort of a precursor to Merc:2000, I guess. The father of a buddy of mine was in Air Force Intel during Vietnam and had a library of old SOF magazines going way back. That added some flavor. DK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 14:22:06 +0200 From: Pietu Subject: Re: Question At 04:41 7.10.1997 -0500, you wrote: >Hi there, > I am new to the list, but here goes... I was thinking of starting a= new >Twilight game, and was wondering if anyone had ever played a game other= than >post World War 3? Perhaps World War 2? Or perhaps a war that never >happened? Or just some operations that resulted in something more >interesting? If you have played any of these, or others, please share. I >would be interested in any ideas that you could share. I want to start a >game the may be set in the past some time, as opposed to the future. > >Ja Mata, >Mal > We have been played Persian Gulf-scenario, were players are U.S Ranger=B4s in south-side of Iraq. Because I havent got any information about special-missions in Iraq, all my missions have been typical "Kill them all" scenarios. I really dont invent anything else. Was there any real-life special-missions in Gulf? Sorry for my Very bad english. =20 " Mr. Nobody " ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:38:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Lynx Greetings: > I was wondering something..... > for all of you with twilight sites............ > do you have active links to the other ones who also have twilight sites? > if not...........Y don'tcha do so................. I used to have a fairly comprehensive list of links on one of my pages, but half of those sites are gone now. - -C ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #59 ************************************