twilight2000-digest Friday, September 26 1997 Volume 1996 : Number 058 The following topics are covered in this digest: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Re: PzKw Maus Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Re: PzKw Maus Re: PzKw Maus Re: PzKw Maus Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Re: PzKw Maus WWII German Tanks (long) Re: VS: VS: Russian attack ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 02:55:15 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) In light of this most informative discussion, maybe both sides could analyze these two revolutions Castro ejecting Batista from Cuba and the Sandanistas overthrowing Somoza in Nicaragua I'm no historian, and if my poor memory serves me correct, these were guerilla movements that led to the downfall of the respective governments. Anyways, your comments please ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:47:21 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack > Complete and total destruction of the enemy, his resoruces, his >ability to wage war SHOULD BE THE ONLY GOAL. Von Clausewitz is correct >in this regard. Because war is so terrible in terms of costs- monetary >and men when a state goes to war it should be the sole purpose of >totally >crushing the enemy. Anything else is a waste of resources, timer, >effort, >and talent. If you can't paly to win then you better get to the >sidelines >because the fifty yard line is only for teams who believe in clobbering >the side with the different jerseys and helmets. Alright, well no point in discussing this point further. We both know where we stand. On the guerilla issue, well... it's epicenter is on you're idea above... so we have reached an impasse. > Yes. Genghis Khan. Oh Really? Did he meet you're preconditions, "Complete and total destruction of the enemy..." ect ect... I don't think so. In fact, how long was he and his great empire around? Not very long.. I'd say that constitutes a failure to completly destory you're enemy... but that's just my idea. The Second World War. Invasions left and right. WHAT!?!??! Who was completely and totally destroyed??? hhmmm... Germany?? I don't think so! It is quite a power today... at the time it was in ruins... but it's peoples, and culture.... thier resources still, for the greater part survived... the same could be said for Japan... a country that advanced technologically and economically faster than any other country in the world after WWII... I don't call that being completely and totally destroyed.... so who then? Saul _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:08:58 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: PzKw Maus I appreciate the tank.. it'll make an interesting addition to my books.. thanks. Saul _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:14:01 -0700 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: Guerrilla Warfare (was vs. Russian attack) OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > > In light of this most informative discussion, maybe both sides could analyze > these two revolutions > > Castro ejecting Batista from Cuba > > and > > the Sandanistas overthrowing Somoza in Nicaragua In both cases the United States government in its inifite wisdom (and often the apparent lack of) placed pressure on both F. Batista and A. Somoza and cutting off economic/military support for both regimes and giving moral support to the Sandinistas and Castro's forces. In both cases the weight of pressure caused their respective governments to collapse and in both cases relatively friendly authoritarian regimes and were replaced with governments that were hostile to the United States. Something that's considered non-Kosher by even the most dimmest of State Department cookie pushers. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in His great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of the enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them."- Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest, "The Good Soldier Schweik" by Jaroslav Hacek ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:06:08 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack >In a message dated 97-09-21 21:55:16 EDT, you write: > >> >> You have yet to provide ANY evidence supporting this claim... while I do >> feel that I have provided evidence that speaks otherwise... > >i am sorry, Armchair generals (and even worse- armchair combat vets) need to >provide no evidence whatsoever. They merely need to produce long winded >accounts on why they are correct and never wrong. >Are we clear on this one? Yes... either someone actually believes these things... or... they're getting a good laugh... I pray for the latter _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:04:59 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack > > Charlie Cong posed no threat to the US force there; That's complete bullocks. > Only because the white leadership was willing to give up their >control over the affairs of South Africa nbot because of ANC idealism. hmm... I wonder what made them 'willing' to do a thing that they were so passionatly against? > And the Romans scattered the Jews to the wind and a second Israel >came only in 1948 after a Holocaust. If a state finds a people very >troublesome they said group will find themselves exiled, their cities >sacked and bruning, and their fields sowed with salt and will be left >with This is good and fine... let me ask you this: Who won, the Romans or the Jews? >only tear filled memories. Had the Soviets found the Afghanis extremely >incompatible with their goals they would have been vulture food. And >Ivan doesn't dick around. So if the Soviets really really tried they would have won huh? Well I certainly hope so. Of course, to try, means also to abandon some strategic fronts... like... well we really don't need any border gaurd divisions by China... I mean.. they won't invade if we relocate them to Afghanastan... and let's not worry about our soldiers continually dropping morale.... or the ever increasing drug trafficing and crime of the soldiers... but sure... if they really really tried, they could have won. > Mao won only by the support of the Soviet Union and overall >economic and poltical collpase of the KMT. Well, I'm sure Mao and I would like to think that he had the people's support, but maybe that's not so important.... ... > > Genocide? An ugly word and one that constitutes the entire destruction >of an ethnic group purely on some sort of pseudoscience or racial >hatred. >That is not the basis behind going to war. Hmm... the Germans have thought so... and so do a handfull of Arabic countries (in the past, and still today)... The basis is to make sure >these >people will not have the ability to raise arms against you- usually >though >one's army must take their destruction to the elvel of completely >destroying >their enemy's state. Right, ok. So Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews to save his good people. or so that's what he believed. The Proverbs of Zion, and all that good literature about the Jewsih takeover of the world... You know Stalin really did think that everyone (!) was out to usurp him... > I believe in states using the full extent of their military might >should they find themselves emroiled in a war and only stop until A)they >can >hammer out a peace with an enemy in which the enemy begs for mercy or >B)until >totally crushed by their enemies. There is no middle ground. Fight until >you >can fight no more. Uncompromising and barbaric. You represent a fine human which, given power, can kill countless innocents... in the name of... ... winning? What a glorious fucking concept.... > Killing the enemy should be the only concern. Some regimes actual >care because of the nature of their governmental systems. Others well- >in this word Hama rules. And read what Syria's Assad opted to do to one >city that was rebellious against Ba'ath party rule. 'Peace through superior firepower'... It's sad to think you have a mind, and instead of being creative or constructive all that you care to use it for, is destruction, pursuing murdering, and how to best accomplish that goal (In this respect, you may show creativity). _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:27:05 -0700 From: Hale Subject: Re: PzKw Maus Saul Basgen wrote: > I appreciate the tank.. it'll make an interesting addition to my books.. > thanks. What book, and does it have other WWII era vehicles converted for T2K2.2? If so, please share the wealth. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:25:39 -0700 From: Hale Subject: Re: PzKw Maus Mark wrote: >=20 > Panzerkampfwagon =8CMaus=B9 Porsche 205 > Super heavy tank Thank You, very much! I have been looking for stats on WWII equipment for a long time. Do you have any other vehicles converted? If so, please post them or send them to me privately. Thanks in advance. Also, could you explain some of the ammo types you had listed, I can't seem to figure them out? Again, thanks in advance. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:13:10 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: PzKw Maus >Saul Basgen wrote: >> I appreciate the tank.. it'll make an interesting addition to my books.. >> thanks. > >What book, and does it have other WWII era vehicles converted for >T2K2.2? >If so, please share the wealth. No, sorry. Just the NATO/Soviet/American combat Vehicle guide... That does have acouple WWII era vehicles, if you'd like I can give you the stats on them. Saul _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:12:31 -0700 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Saul Basgen wrote: > Oh Really? Did he meet you're preconditions, "Complete and total > destruction of the enemy..." ect ect... I don't think so. In fact, how long > was he and his great empire around? Not very long.. I'd say that > constitutes a failure to completly destory you're enemy... but that's just > my idea. Genghis left the world a legacy where the Mongols would continue to exist in some form or the other until well into the 1500s. Khan's empire was subdivided among his sons and generals- not crushed by internal rebellion. Those peoples who raised a hand against the Mongols were ruthlessly dispatched. > WHAT!?!??! Who was completely and totally destroyed??? hhmmm... Germany?? I > don't think so! It is quite a power today... What power? Germany and Japan derives its powerbase from the fact the United States was benevolent enough to let them do us and under the conditions they never raise a fiunger aginst us again and stand behind us in times of crisis. Both states respective military forces are geared towards the defense of their homeland with the assistance of America. In fact it can be said that many traditional German and Japanese values have been completely changed in the aftermath of the destruction of the Second World War and in light that their propsperity and security comes from America. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in His great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of the enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them."- Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest, "The Good Soldier Schweik" by Jaroslav Hacek ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 20:34:07 -0700 From: Mad Mike Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack Saul Basgen wrote: > That's complete bullocks. Horsedung. In 1965 elements of the Seventh Cav ran into two regiments of NVA in the Battle of ia drang. In 1975- Saigon fell to North Vietnamese tanks and infantrymen. American aircraft were shot down by NVA armed forces and time after Marines and soldiers found their greatest opposition in North Vietnamese divisions and regiments. After the Tet Offensive what military structure the VC has was rendered to dust and even that was supported by a multidivisional attack on Khe Sanh and the Central Highlands. The VC always played second banana in the conquest of the South by Hanoi and were only tolerated because it tied down enemy resources. After 1968 and Phoenix the VC for all intensive purpsoes were cut down to just a facade of propagandists for various left wingers in Europe and America. > This is good and fine... let me ask you this: Who won, the Romans or > the Jews? Roman commanders never expected Theodore Herzl but neither did the Arabs. > So if the Soviets really really tried they would have won huh? Well I > certainly hope so. Yep. They would have and there wasn't a damn thing anybody could do. They tied less than half the resources of what we had in Vietnam nor did they waged any serious air campaign against enemy supply lines or base areas. And they lost less than half the men the US lost in Vietnam in only ten years. > Well, I'm sure Mao and I would like to think that he had the people's > support, but maybe that's not so important.... ... He had something better- Stalin in Manchuria and a steady stream of guns. Mao could take Peking and the North. Long live the People's War my ass- but Lin Biao was a retard of the highest order if he actually believed that crap. > Right, ok. So Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews to save his good people. > or so that's what he believed. The Proverbs of Zion, and all that good > literature about the Jewsih takeover of the world... You know Stalin really > did think that everyone (!) was out to usurp him... Fact- when national leadership believe a certain group of people are a threat to the state or at least to them said group becomes extinct. > Uncompromising and barbaric. You represent a fine human which, given > power, can kill countless innocents... in the name of... ... winning? What > a glorious fucking concept.... If you go to war- one must be willing to completely crushing the enemy's ability to wage war. Not only killing his troops and destroying his weapons systems. But chop supply lines, pummel infrastructure to dust, blast means of production into free atoms, whatever it takes to make sure said enemy is not a threat to your objectives- whatever they may be. War is nothing more than state sanctioned murder. If you can achieve your goals without out the mind boggling numbers of dead well bully for you. If not better roll up your sleeves and start making acheiving a kill ratio that is better than 1:1. But since war is terrible there are better ways to deal with conflicts between states than the bayonet. It's called diplomacy and negotiation. Mad Mike - -- "May God bless your bayonets that they may penetrate deep into the entrails of your enemies. May the Almighty in His great righteousness direct your artillery fire upon the heads of the enemy staffs. Merciful God, grant that all our enemies may be stifled amid their own blood, from the wounds which we inflict upon them."- Geza Szatmur Budafal, Archbishop of Budapest, "The Good Soldier Schweik" by Jaroslav Hacek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 15:26:46 -0600 From: Mark Subject: Re: PzKw Maus >Also, could you explain some of the ammo types you had listed, I can't >seem to figure them out? APCBC Armoured-piercing cap ballistic cap Both a ballistic and AP caps are used to improve ballistics and penetration. HCS Hollow Charge Shell a shaped charge also known as HEAT or HEAP AP40 A mild steel body with a light alloy or plastic cap with a tungsten-carbide core. Only 50-65% wieght of normal AP shell I will post more of the WWII tanks. But I don't have all the details in those files just T2K2 stats. Weapons are an important factor in war, but not the decisive one: it is the man and not the materials that count. - Mao Tsetung ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 22:45:10 -0600 From: Mark Subject: WWII German Tanks (long) Name: PzJg IV Hornisse Crew: 4 Wt: 24 F Cap: 768 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 61/29 Cbt Mov: 15/7 Trt HF: 6 HS: 4 HR: 4 TF: 3 TS: 0 TR: 0 = T: 0 B: 3 Sus: 5 8.8cm PaK43 Name: PzKpfw VI B Crew: 5 Wt: 68 F Cap: 1700 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 51/20 Cbt Mov: 13/5 Trt HF: 47 HS: 18 HR: 18 TF: 36 TS: 17 TR: 17 = T: 8 B: 8 Sus: 14 8.8cm KwK43 Name: PzKpfw VI E Crew: 5 Wt: 57 F Cap: 1197 F Con: 325 Tr Mov: 55/23 Cbt Mov: 14/6 Trt HF: 22 HS: 16 HR: 16 TF: 20 TS: 16 TR: 16 = T: 5 B: 5 Sus: 11 8.8cm KwK36 Name: Marder II Crew: 3 Wt: 10.8 F Cap: 333 F Con: 70 Tr Mov: 58/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 Trt HF: 7 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 2 TS: 0 TR: 0 = T: 2 B: 1 Sus: 3 7.5cm PaK40 Name: PzKpfw V G Crew: 5 Wt: 45.5 F Cap: 1522 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 67/39 Cbt Mov: 17/10 Trt HF: 28 HS: 12 HR: 9 TF: 22 TS: 10 TR: 10 = T: 3 B: 8 Sus: 11 7.5cm KwK42 Name: PzKpfw V D Crew: 5 Wt: 43 F Cap: 1522 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 67/41 Cbt Mov: 17/10 Trt HF: 28 HS: 10 HR: 9 TF: 20 TS: 10 TR: 10 = T: 3 B: 6 Sus: 11 7.5cm KwK42 Name: PzKpfw V A Crew: 5 Wt: 44.8 F Cap: 1522 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 67/39 Cbt Mov: 17/10 Trt HF: 28 HS: 10 HR: 9 TF: 22 TS: 10 TR: 10 = T: 3 B: 6 Sus: 11 7.5cm KwK42 Name: PzKpfw IV G, H, J Crew: 5 Wt: 25 F Cap: 1263 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 55/25 Cbt Mov: 14/6 Trt HF: 17 HS: 6 HR: 4 TF: 10 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 4 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK40 Name: PzKpfw IV F2 Crew: 5 Wt: 23 F Cap: 750 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/29 Cbt Mov: 14/7 Trt HF: 10 HS: 6 HR: 4 TF: 10 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK40 Name: PzKpfw IV F Crew: 5 Wt: 22.3 F Cap: 714 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 61/30 Cbt Mov: 15/8 Trt HF: 10 HS: 6 HR: 4 TF: 10 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK37 Name: PzKpfw IV E Crew: 5 Wt: 21 F Cap: 714 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 61/32 Cbt Mov: 15/8 Trt HF: 12 HS: 8 HR: 4 TF: 6 TS: 4 TR: 4 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK37 Name: PzKpfw IV D Crew: 5 Wt: 20 F Cap: 750 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/32 Cbt Mov: 14/8 Trt HF: 6 HS: 4 HR: 4 TF: 6 TS: 4 TR: 4 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK37 Name: PzKpfw III N Crew: 5 Wt: 23 F Cap: 581 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/29 Cbt Mov: 14/7 Trt HF: 14 HS: 6 HR: 10 TF: 12 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 4 Sus: 4 7.5cm KwK Name: PzKpfw III J1, L, M Crew: 5 Wt: 22.7 F Cap: 581 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/29 Cbt Mov: 14/7 Trt HF: 11 HS: 6 HR: 10 TF: 12 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 4 Sus: 4 5cm KwK39 Name: PzKpfw III H, J Crew: 5 Wt: 21.5 F Cap: 581 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/30 Cbt Mov: 14/8 Trt HF: 11 HS: 6 HR: 10 TF: 6 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 3 Sus: 3 5cm KwK Name: PzKpfw III G Crew: 5 Wt: 20.3 F Cap: 619 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/32 Cbt Mov: 14/8 Trt HF: 6 HS: 6 HR: 6 TF: 6 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 3 Sus: 3 5cm KwK Name: PzKpfw 38 E, F,S Crew: 4 Wt: 9.8 F Cap: 372 F Con: 62.5 Tr Mov: 61/29 Cbt Mov: 15/7 Trt HF: 10 HS: 6 HR: 3 TF: 10 TS: 6 TR: 0 = T: 3 B: 2 Sus: 3 3.7cm KwK38 Name: PzKpfw 38 B, C, D Crew: 4 Wt: 9.5 F Cap: 372 F Con: 62.5 Tr Mov: 61/30 Cbt Mov: 15/8 Trt HF: 5 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 5 TS: 3 TR: 3 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 3 3.7cm KwK38 Name: PzKpfw 35 Crew: 4 Wt: 10.5 F Cap: 326 F Con: 60 Tr Mov: 51/22 Cbt Mov: 13/5 Trt HF: 6 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 5 TS: 3 TR: 3 = T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 3 3.7cm KwK34 Name: PzKpfw III F Crew: 5 Wt: 20.3 F Cap: 619 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/32 Cbt Mov: 14/8 Trt HF: 6 HS: 6 HR: 6 TF: 6 TS: 7 TR: 6 = T: 2 B: 3 Sus: 3 3.7cm KwK Name: PzKpfw II F Crew: 3 Wt: 9.5 F Cap: 350 F Con: 70 Tr Mov: 58/32 Cbt Mov: 14/8 Trt HF: 6 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 6 TS: 3 TR: 3 = T: 2 B: 3 Sus: 3 2cm KwK30 Name: PzKpfw II A, B, C Crew: 3 Wt: 8.9 F Cap: 350 F Con: 70 Tr Mov: 58/35 Cbt Mov: 14/9 Trt HF: 3 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 3 TS: 3 TR: 3 = T: 2 B: 3 Sus: 3 2cm KwK30 Name: PzKpfw I A, B Crew: 2 Wt: 5.4 F Cap: 112 F Con: 28.5 Tr Mov: 54/22 Cbt Mov: 13/5 Trt HF: 3 HS: 3 HR: 3 TF: 3 TS: 3 TR: 3 = T: 2 B: 1 Sus: 2 2 x MG13 Name: PzKpfw E-100 Crew: 5 Wt: 140 F Cap: 1200 F Con: 400 Tr Mov: 58/12 Cbt Mov: 14/3 Trt HF: 80 HS: 38 HR: 35 TF: 48 TS: 69 TR: 40 = T: 8 B: 16 Sus: 16 15cm KwK44 Name: PzKpfw Maus Crew: 5 Wt: 188 F Cap: 5022 F Con: 540 Tr Mov: 29/6 Cbt Mov: 7/1 Trt HF: 70 HS: 56 HR: 46 TF: 48 TS: 46 TR: 40 = T: 8 B: 20 Sus: 15 12.8cm KwK44 Name: Wespe Crew: 4 Wt: 11 F Cap: 385 F Con: 70 Tr Mov: 58/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 Trt HF: 6 HS: 3 HR: 2 TF: 2 TS: 2 TR: 2 = T: 0 B: 1 Sus: 3 10.5cm leFH18M Name: Sd Kfz 251 Crew: 2 Wt: 7.8 F Cap: 283 F Con: 50 Tr Mov: 77/36 Cbt Mov: 19/9 Stnd HF: 2 HS: 2 HR: 2 T: 0 B: 1 Sus: 3 0 Name: Sd Kfz 250 Crew: 2 Wt: 5.8 F Cap: 267 F Con: 50 Tr Mov: 87/57 Cbt Mov: 22/14 Stnd HF: 2 HS: 2 HR: 2 T: 0 B: 1 Sus: 2 0 Name: PzJg VI Ferdinand Crew: 6 Wt: 65 F Cap: 1750 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 44/17 Cbt Mov: 11/4 CIH HF: 44 HS: 18 HR: 17 T: 6 B: 10 Sus: 11 8.8cm PaK43 Name: JgdPz V Jagppanther Crew: 5 Wt: 46 F Cap: 1217 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 67/38 Cbt Mov: 17/9 CIH HF: 21 HS: 12 HR: 10 T: 5 B: 5 Sus: 12 8.8cm PaK43 Name: StuG IV Crew: 4 Wt: 23 F Cap: 829 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 55/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 CIH HF: 16 HS: 6 HR: 6 T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm StuK40 Name: StuG III F Crew: 4 Wt: 23.2 F Cap: 525 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 CIH HF: 17 HS: 6 HR: 7 T: 3 B: 3 Sus: 4 7.5cm StuK40 Name: StuG III B, C, D, E Crew: 4 Wt: 20.8 F Cap: 600 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/32 Cbt Mov: 14/8 CIH HF: 11 HS: 6 HR: 7 T: 3 B: 3 Sus: 3 7.5cm StuK37 Name: JgdPz IV70 A, V Crew: 4 Wt: 28 F Cap: 1263 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 55/22 Cbt Mov: 14/5 CIH HF: 25 HS: 9 HR: 5 T: 4 B: 2 Sus: 5 7.5cm PaK42 Name: JgdPz IV Crew: 4 Wt: 24 F Cap: 788 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 CIH HF: 19 HS: 7 HR: 5 T: 4 B: 4 Sus: 4 7.5cm PaK39 Name: JgdPz 38 Crew: 4 Wt: 15.8 F Cap: 337 F Con: 80 Tr Mov: 61/23 Cbt Mov: 15/6 CIH HF: 24 HS: 5 HR: 4 T: 2 B: 2 Sus: 4 7.5cm PaK39 Name: StuPz IV Crew: 5 Wt: 28.2 F Cap: 788 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/20 Cbt Mov: 14/5 CIH HF: 26 HS: 10 HR: 7 T: 6 B: 2 Sus: 4 15cm StuH43 Name: JgdPz VI Jagdtiger Crew: 6 Wt: 70 F Cap: 1566 F Con: 350 Tr Mov: 55/20 Cbt Mov: 14/5 CIH HF: 52 HS: 18 HR: 16 T: 8 B: 8 Sus: 14 12.8cm PaK44 Name: StuH 42 Crew: 4 Wt: 24 F Cap: 581 F Con: 150 Tr Mov: 58/28 Cbt Mov: 14/7 CIH HF: 16 HS: 6 HR: 10 T: 3 B: 3 Sus: 4 Rof Dam Pen Blk = Mag Brst Rng MG-13 10 4 2-3-Nil 6 = 50B 4 125 Here are the main armaments I don=B9t recall were I found them = though. Some of the values look questionable. If anybody has better = I would like to see it posted. These are a few years old, the last = value is a example of what I use now. Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 2cm KwK30 1 100 APC = 10 -2/-4/-6 75 = AP40 10 0/-2/-4 100 = HCS C:1 B:2 2c 100 = HE C:1 B:2 Nil Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 3.7cm KwK 1 100 APC = 10 3/-2/-5 3.7cm KwK34 75 AP40 = 10 4/1/0 3.7cm KwK38 100 HCS = C:1 B:2 3c 100 = HE C:1 B:2 Nil Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 5cm KwK 1 150 AP = 22 20/10/5/1 5cm KwK39 150 APC = 22 21/11/6/2 100 = AP40 22 22/12/7/3 150 = HCS C:6 B:2 4c 150 = HE C:6 B:2 Nil Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 7.5cm KwK 1 275 APC = 16 8/4/2 7.5cm KwK37 275 APCBC = 16 12/6/3 7.5cm StuK37 250 AP40 = 16 16/10/7 7.5cm StuK40 275/7000 HCS = C:6 B:12 20c 275/7000 = HE C:6 B:12 -3c 275/7000 = CHEM C:3 B:20 Nil 50 = Cannister C:6 B:12 4/3/3/-1 Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 7.5cm KwK40 1 300 APC = 16 8/4/2 7.5cm KwK42 300 APCBC = 16 12/6/3 7.5cm PaK39 275 AP40 = 16 16/10/7 7.5cm PaK40 300 HCS = C:6 B:2 20c 7.5cm PaK42 300 HE = C:6 B:2 -3c 300 = CHEM C:3 B:2 Nil 50 = Cannister C:6 B:2 4/3/2/-1 Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 8.8cm KwK36 1 350 APC = 24 25/20/15/10 8.8cm KwK43 350 APCBC = 24 30/25/20/15 8.8cm PaK43 325 AP40 = 24 35/30/25/20 350 = HCS C:6 B:2 60c 350 = HE C:6 B:2 40c Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 10.5cm leFH18M 300 AP = 26 60/50/40/30 10.5cm StuH42 300/17000 HE C:6 = B:2 4c 300/17000 HCS = C:6 B:2 12c 300/17000 CHEM = C:3 B:2 Nil Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 12.8cm KwK44 2 400 APC = 28 80/70/60/50 12.8cm PaK44 400 APCBC = 28 90/80/70/60 400 = HCS C:10 B:2 110c 400 = HE C:14 B:2 1c Gun Rld Rng/IFR Ammo = Dam Pen 15cm StuH43 250 HCS = C:8 B:2 80c 250 = HE C:8 B:2 15c 50 = Cannister C:3 B:2 4/3/2/-1 MAIN GUN ON M1A2 ABRAMS 120mm HVG TL8 HE 496 C:15, B:21 7c HEAP 496 C:8, B:11 109c SEFOP 496 C:15, B:21 109c KEAP 496 29 49/39/31 HVAP 496 29 64/51/41 APDS 496 29 84/67/53 APFSDS 496 29 118/94/75 APFSDSDU 496 29 147/118/94 ILLUM 496 C:0, B:1161 INCEND 496 C:3, B:28 CHEM 496 C:3, B:10 ICM 496 C:0, B:43 Flec 496 C:6, B:125 Chaff 496 C:0, B:504 ICM 'fascam AP' #:20 B:10 C:5 1c ICM 'fascam AV' #:12 B:4 C:2 12c SAME GUN IF BUILT DURING WWII 120mm HVG TL5 HE 473 C:14, B:20 7c HEAP 473 C:8, B:10 108c KEAP 473 27 49/39/31 HVAP 473 27 63/50/40 APDS 473 27 83/66/53 ILLUM 473 C:0, B:1074 INCEND 473 C:3, B:26 CHEM 473 C:3, B:9 Flec 473 C:6, B:116 Chaff 473 C:0, B:467 My center gives way, my right is pushed back, situation excellent, I = am attacking. - Ferdinand Foch ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:35:31 -0700 From: Saul Basgen Subject: Re: VS: VS: Russian attack >> WHAT!?!??! Who was completely and totally destroyed??? hhmmm... Germany?? I >> don't think so! It is quite a power today... > > What power? Germany and Japan derives its powerbase from the fact >the United States was benevolent enough to let them do us and under the >conditions they never raise a fiunger aginst us again and stand behind >us in times of crisis. Both states respective military forces are geared >towards the defense of their homeland with the assistance of America. > In fact it can be said that many traditional German and Japanese >values have been completely changed in the aftermath of the destruction >of the Second World War and in light that their propsperity and security >comes from America. Insofar as traditional values are concerned, I think they lost these things long before WWII. Japan's culture began declining when Admiral Perry landed in Japan in 1862 (if my memory serves), and has yet to see any recovery. Western values have been forced upon Japan since that time, and the Japanese, being the people that they are, decided to adapt to the West, and strove to overcome the West, by the West's own standards. Both Germany and Japan, while retain feeble armies (of an almost unworthy note, though Japan's internal defence force is limited to less than 1% of it's population, they have exceeded this, and I *think* they are at 3 - 4% right now, though that is still infinstesmally small), are enourmous economic powers. Hadn't ASEAN excluded Japan from it's trade agreements, Japan would still retain it's economic power for years to come. It's been awhile since I payed much attention to currency, but I do believe that the German Mark is very strong, and German industrial capacity is on the top ten. While both countries were in complete ruin after the Word War, today they are right up next to the Imperialist powers. _____________________________________________________________________ the blind and idiotic fool... Musides http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Soviet.html http://www.seattleu.edu/~musides/Twilight.html "It would be unpardonable opportunism if, on the eve of debut of the East, just as it is awakening, we undermined our prestige with its peoples, even if only by the slightest crudity or injustice towards our own non-Russian nationalities. The need to rally against the imperialists of the West, who are defending the capitalist world, is one thing.... It is another thing when we ourselves lapse, even if only in trifles, into imperialist attitudes towards oppressed nationalities, thus undermining all our principled sincerity, all our principled defence of the struggle against imperialism. But the morrow of world history will be a day when the awakening peoples oppressed by imperialism are finally aroused and the decisive long and hard struggle for their liberation begins." - -V.I. lenin on the question of Nationalities December 31, 1922 ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #58 ************************************