twilight2000-digest Monday, May 26 1997 Volume 1996 : Number 045 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Bad language, guns (getting far off subject) (fwd) United Nations International Study on Firearm Regulation (fwd) Info Guns Re: Bad language, guns (getting far off subject) (fwd) Re: Guns Gamers-L-Digest V2 #83 (fwd) panzer song World War III (ID of friendlies) was Re: Gamers-L-Digest V2 #83 (fwd) Ground radar Jane's News Briefs (fwd) OmegaWeb, the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE on-line source (fwd) Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) Re: Elite Military (Was Re: (fwd) Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:12:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Bad language, guns (getting far off subject) (fwd) Greetings All: From another ML... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > I'm not about to argue with the FBI, but expansion does not equal >wounding. You know without my telling you that wounding energy is proportional >to mass times velocity squared, and that transfer of that kinetic energy to Very true...for the energy. And what you say about velocity and shock value is true, but pistol rounds don't tend to have a very high muzzle velocity. .45 ACP is particularly low at only 700-900 fps. The FBI found that what they call "permanent wound cavity" was "enhanced", i.e. made larger, when the bullet expands, "mushrooms", when it hits the target. Stopping power was considered to be a function of the size of the permanent wound cavity. Bullets that fragment or fail to mushroom create smaller permanent wound cavities. Black Talons in .45 ACP went from under 1/2" diameter to closer to 1.25" in most cases (while spinning at about 50,000 RPM...). Hollow point ammo (typical police round) tends to do the same, but hollow points are strongly affected by passage through materials like wallboard (gypsumboard, sheetrock, blueboard, and other such names) that plug the nose depression and make them little different from round points as far as expansion characteristics...Black Talons were much less affected by the same conditions. The article I read all this in was published in the NRA magazine The American Rifleman, but I can't recall the date. If you want to read how the tests were done and what the results were, check with the NRA, or maybe with the FBI. If your experience in working with the results of gunshots to actual humans shows that the permanent wound cavity factor is unimportant, you might want to let the FBI know about it. They seemed to consider that a prime factor in deciding between rounds. > John Hinckley shot President Reagan with exploding ammo. The effect of Yeah, I read that too, and I have wondered ever since what the hell they were talking about. Exploding ammo is banned by international treaty, so even the military doesn't use it in anything under .50 cal. Where did Hinckley get such a thing? My guess is that what the reporters were refering to with this scary term was "cross-points", made by cutting an "X" on the tip of the lead bullet with a knife. The idea is to make the bullet fragment on impact, and create multiple wound paths. With the tiny rounds he used (.22?) I doubt it made much difference...especially after your explanation of energy and shock effects. I wish we required that reporters actually know something about the subject they are reporting on, or be required to quote the experts verbatim... >disruption. Perhaps they were studying penetration of clothing, vests, other >blocking factors along with stopping power, rather than specifically tissue >disruption. Yes, they were. They seldom encounter armed and dangerous nudists, so they do worry about what, say, cordouroy or leather will do to the effectiveness of their rounds. ;^) They also tested penetration on wood, glass, wallboard, sheetmetal, etc. >Every FBI agent I have met knows it's fundamentally muzzle >velocity that makes the difference. All else being equal, yes. All else is not equal though, which is why the .45 ACP, with it's low muzzle velocity, is still a top choice...right behind the .44 and .357 magnums. There's something to be said for a big heavy bullet that doesn't over-penetrate and waste energy on the background. >x ray did not always locate and pre-identify *live rounds* still in the deep >tissues of corpses. They say there's nothing like working away and suddenly >hearing that awful, quiet "chink!" as forceps hits metal. Everybody back, >crouch down, while sweating Dr. Susan H. attempts to extract the live round >without detonating it... Definitely scary work, but I can't help remembering a Saturday Night Live fake commercial for a show called "Police Gynecologist"... - -- Mike "working against time to remove a bomb from a police woman..." Bartman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:32:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: United Nations International Study on Firearm Regulation (fwd) Greetings All: From another ML... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- 16 May 1997 I am happy to announce that Joel Johnston in our Washington office has now posted the FULL TEXT (including all graphics) of the recently released "United Nations International Study on Firearm Regulation" (E/CN.15/1997/CRP.6, 25 April 1997) on BASIC's web site. To download the report, please visit BASIC's Web site at http://www.igc.apc.org/basic/ where the Firearms report is listed as a "new" item on the main page. You can also go directly to the weapons trade index at http://www.igc.apc.org/basic/wtindex.html to find it. Joel has posted the report in both .pdf format (that can be viewed in Adobe Acrobat Reader, printed, saved etc.) and as a zipped Mocrosoft Word 6.0 file. He has also provided links to free downloads of Acrobat Reader and to WinZip in case you do not already have this software. If you cannot access files in these formats, you can also find a TEXT version of the report (which DOES NOT include the extensive tables and graphs from the report) on the Center for Defense Information's Arms Trade Database (ATDB). Access this at: http://www.cdi.org/ArmsTradeDatabase/CONTROL/Small_Arms/Draft_UN_International _ Study_On_Firearm_Regulation,_April_25_1997.txt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:23:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Info Greetings All: Over the past week, several people have asked me for information about (1) the mailing lists I sometimes forward posts from, and (2) who might still have T2k merchandise to sell. Item 1: (a) The Gamers ML: List Name: Gamers-L Subscription Address: majordomo@www.ee.washington.edu Owner: Stephen Graham Last Update: 07/03/96 Description: This mailing list is for discussion of wargames produced by The Gamers. Related topics (history, comparison with other games on the same subject, and the impedimentia of wargaming) are welcome on the list, but prolonged discussion of these should be moved to a more approriate locale. The list is not moderated, but continual abuse of the list will result in your removal from the list. The list is maintained by Stephen Graham, graham@eskimo.com, and all administrative questions should be addressed to him. If volume becomes a problem, the list is also available as a digest, gamers-l-digest@www.ee.washington.edu. Additional information is available on The Gamers web-site: http://www.eskimo.com/~graham/the-gamers.html Stephen Graham graham@eskimo.com (b)The Disarm-L ML: List Name: DISARM-L@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU and DISARM-D@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Subscription Address: LISTSERV@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU Owner: Donald Parsons Description: DISARM-L provides discussions of military and political strategy, technology, sociology, and popular peace activism involved in accelerating disarmament of nuclear, conventional ,chemical and biological weapons. Also discussion of other destabilizing actions such as suprpower intervention and exploitation of the 3rd world. DISARM-D is a monthly digest form of the list. (c) CONSIM-L (Conflict Simulation) ML: CONSIM-L Addresses CONSIM-L@VM.UCS.UALBERTA.CA (list) LISTSERV@VM.UCS.UALBERTA.CA (listserv) Description CONSIM-L is a new list to provide an unmoderated environment for discussion of historical conflict simulation games, particularly the games published in Strategy and Tactics and Command magazines, but also including boxed games from such publishers as The Avalon Hill Game Company, Victory Games, and Game Designers Workshop. The explicit purpose of CONSIM-L is to provide a platform for discussion of recently published games, but discussion can range over the general topics of conflict simulation design, military hist. **(summaries from Interlinks and the List of Lists)** I don't have the Jane's ML info in front of me. When I dig it up or come across it again, I'll post it. I have forwarded the info to a couple of people already, so one of them (you) may be able to post the pertinent info on this ML before I can. Item 2: (a) The Dragon's Trove New and Used RPGs: http://www.dragontrove.com/gdw.html (b) Hobby Game Distributers: http://www.hobbygame.com/g.html#GD (c) Finnish Game House (In Finnish; They published additional T2k source mat'l): http://www.xgw.fi/biz/fantasiapelit/sf-fgh.html#6 Plus the place that Rob mentioned. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:01:04 -0400 (EDT) From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Subject: Guns Christopher Callahan Subject: guns >From another ML... > I'm not about to argue with the FBI, but expansion does not equal wounding. For what it's worth, Frank Chadwick, in designing the Twilight: 2000 combat system, used information he received during a couple of seminars conducted by Dr Marvin (I think) Fackler (then of the US Army's Wound Ballistics Lab). We put a short discussion of the subject in the Traveller product Fire, Fusion, and Steel. Loren Wiseman GDW Emeritus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 97 11:32:32 -0600 From: Mark Subject: Re: Bad language, guns (getting far off subject) (fwd) >Exploding ammo is banned by international treaty, so >even the military doesn't use it in anything under .50 cal. Just curious which treaty? My center gives way, my right is pushed back, situation excellent, I am attacking. - Ferdinand Foch ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:55:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Guns Greetings All: > Lab). We put a short discussion of the subject in the Traveller product Fire, > Fusion, and Steel. > > Loren Wiseman > GDW Emeritus Holy Smokes!! There are still *actual* GDW people on the list!! Praise Be!! My spirits have been duly lifted. :) Anyway, what is the relationship, if any, between you (all) and Tantalus? Will you guys be involved in whatever Tantalus finally decides to do with T2k? What are you guys doing with your time meanwhile? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:45:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Gamers-L-Digest V2 #83 (fwd) Greetings All: From another ML... Close support of the type we're interested in was very dangerous without spotting because of hitting friendlies by accident. This happened countless times when pilots went in on their own. Close support was directed in a number of ways. Everyone used air panels to mark their forward positions, letting the pilots know that everyone on the other side was fair game. Smoke rounds from mortars, even grenades was also used (although if the enemy picked up on this, they were known to smoke American positions too.) Radio contact helped a lot because you could tell the pilot what to look for, they could do a dry run, the observer would confirm whether the target was the correct one or not, and then the strike would happen. Air units operating without controllers would basically either have no chance of spotting dug-in troops or troops in cover, or would be forbidden from providing support so close to friendly lines without direction. In Korea when the USAF tried to help in the beginning phases of the war, they did more harm than good and were eventually put only on interdiction so that they would stop shooting up frieldly columns. Since friendly fire is so demoralizing, its effects were heightened when it landed on the wrong guys. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:12:29 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: panzer song got this from the Command Decision list. I thought it was funny and thought since this ml isnt getting much use, what the heck..... > The SchnitzelTank Song! > ---------------------- > (George and Jeppy) > > Is das not M4A1? > Ya das ist M4A1! > Does it not have little gun? > Ya it does have little gun! > M4A1; little gun. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Target tank! > > Is das not ein Cromwell there? > Ya das ist ein Cromwell there! > Does it not have turret square? > Ya it does have turret square! > Cromwell there; turret square. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Wish'd was tank! > > Is das not ein Firefly? > Ya das ist ein Firefly! > Does it not go bye-bye? > Ya it does go bye-bye! > Firefly; go bye-bye. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Almost tank! > > Is das not ein Pz four? > Ya das ist ein Pz four! > Do we see it down der bore? > Ya we see it down der bore! > Pz four; down der bore. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > German tank! > > Is das not ein panzerschrek? > Ya das ist ein panzerschrek! > Does it not make tank a wreck? > Ya it does make tank a wreck! > Panzerschrek; tank is wreck. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Broken tank! > > Is das not ein panzerfaust? > Ya das ist ein panzerfaust! > Does it not shoot from house? > Ya it does shoot from house! > Panzerfaust; shoot from house. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Hole in tank! > > Is das not ein eighty-eight? > Ya das ist ein eighty-eight! > Does it not think range is great? > Ya it does think range is great! > Eighty-eight; range is great. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Burning tank! > > Is das not some infantry? > Ya das ist some infantry! > Does it not hide in der tree? > Ya it does hide in der tree! > Infantry; hide in tree. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Mugging tank! > > Is das not ein kettenkrat? > Ya das ist ein kettenkrat! > Does it not get squashed so flat? > Ya it does get squashed so flat! > Kettenkrat; squashed so flat. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Silly tank! > > Is das not ein armoured car? > Ya das ist ein armoured car! > Does it not go driving far? > Ya it does go driving far! > Armoured car; driving far. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Not a tank! > > Is das not ein Sturmgeschutz? > Ya das ist ein Sturmgeschutz! > Is ve quaking in our boots? > Ya ve's quaking in our boots! > Sturmgeschutz; quaking boots. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Fixed gun tank! > > Is das not ein eighty-eight? > Ya das ist ein eighty-eight! > Is it not the thing we hate? > Ya it is the thing we hate! > Eighty-eight; thing we hate. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > 'nother burning tank! > > Is das not ein Haffen track? > Ya das ist ein Haffen track! > Open top with guys in back? > Ya open top with guys in back! > Haffen track; guys in back. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Shoot with tank! > > Is das not ein Tiger two? > Ya das ist ein Tiger two! > Is it not quite bad for you? > Ya it is quite bad for you! > Tiger two; bad for you. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Big damn tank! > > Is das not ein Pak AT? > Ya das ist ein Pak AT! > Is it not shooting at me? > Ya it is shooting at me! > Pak AT; shoots at me. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Kill my tank! > > Is das not ein farging panther? > Ya das ist ein farging panther! > Is it not the german anthwer? > Ya it is the german anthwer! > Farging panther; german anthwer. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > Nasty tank! > > Is das not der kraut reserves? > Ya das ist der kraut reserves! > Do they make of us preserves? > Ya they make of us preserves! > Kraut reserves; us preserves. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > More damn tank! > > Is das not luftwaffe guys? > Ya das ist luftwaffe guys! > Do they not reach for the skies > Ya they do reach for the skies! > Luftwaffe guys; reach for skies. > Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene, Oh du schoene... > They see tank! > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:19:40 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: World War III Does anyone out there have a copy of any of the GDW Third World War series? If so, give me an email, thanks Orrin ladd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:14:23 EDT From: q-guy@juno.com (Christopher Stainton) Subject: (ID of friendlies) was Re: Gamers-L-Digest V2 #83 (fwd) I remember having to sew a funny little silver piece of cloth to the back of my helmet cover that the laser designators of "friendly" forces would supposedly pick up on and not shoot us. Also those funny inverted and sideways "V"'s on the vehicles were supposed to also do that......................... 'course we still killed our own troops.............................................. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:31:03 +0300 (GFT Daylight Time) From: Pietu Subject: Ground radar Does anybody know how to use ground radar in TW:2000? I dont found any rules about it. Pietu P.s My summer holiday is near and then I must close my E-mail, so answer fast, please. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Jane's News Briefs (fwd) Greetings All: Here is the last Jane's newsletter I received. It contains subscription information to this and one other newsletter (which I also get). - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:12:59 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-jig-lib@freud.thomson.com Subject: Jane's News Briefs Dear Jane's Colleague: Examine key future defense-critical technologies FOR FREE with the Jane's US Military R&D Portfolio electronic newsletter (E-Letter). This new e-letter service will bring you bi-weekly excerpts from a forthcoming special report, Jane's US Military R&D Portfolio. Available in July 1997, this 200-page special report will detail in-depth the technologies being developed today--including microminiaturization, directed energy, and sensors and communications--and analyze their importance to tomorrow's US fighting force. Contact miltech@janes.com to receive this free new e-letter service. Below please find this week's News Brief. If you would like more information on anything featured or would like to speak to a Jane's Information Specialist, please contact us through: Phone: 1-800-243-3852 Fax: 1-800-836-0297 email: thisweek@janes.com SUBSCRIBE If you're getting this news brief forwarded to you from a colleague, but you'd rather get it directly, for free, it's easy. Just send an email to thisweek@janes.com asking to be added to the Jane's news Brief list. Be sure to include your e-mail address. To stop receiving the News Brief, send a message to thisweek@janes.com asking to be removed from the Jane's News Brief list. Thank you, Marketing Director ================================================================================ NEWS BRIEFS FROM JANE'S - 20 May 1997 - Part 2 Sent 1515 Hrs EST \\\\\\\\\\ TRANSPORT \\\\\\\\\\ ============================================ Jane's Urban Transport Systems - 15 May 1997 ============================================ New Bus from Wrights Bus bodybuilder, Wrights, of Northern Ireland, launched a new low-floor 12 m single-deck body, the Renown, at the beginning of May. It is mounted on the Volvo B10BLE and has the advantage over other low-floor bodies of gasket double glazing and a simpler chassis, reducing costs substantially. The body has a ramped floor and a single shallow step over the rear axle, unlike many other comparable low-floor bodies. Wrights have named this a FlolineTM floor system and state that the new design is in response to people with pushchairs, trolleys and shopping, who wanted to see as few internal steps as possible, but still wanted a low floor. The entrance is 1,095 mm wide and 320 mm from the road, kneeling down to 250 mm. When fitted out to comply with the UK's Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee (DPTAC) legroom standards, the Renown carries 67 passengers with 41 seated. A manually-operated ramp for wheelchairs can be fitted. The B10BLE chassis has the Volvo DH10A engine driving through a ZF gearbox. Jeff Wright, Managing Director, said, "Until now, manufacturers throughout Europe - ourselves included - have used bonded glazing to provide some of the strength large low-floor buses need, as the body structure bears stresses imposed on the chassis frame on previous generations of step-free entrance buses. While bonded glazing may look attractive, a sad reality of modern life is that vandals frequently break bus windows and operators tell us that they prefer the speed, economics and ease of replacement of rubber gasket glazing - just as they appreciate the speed with which our quick-fit body panels can be changed after an accident." Orders in the UK include 102 for FirstBus with the first 52 being delivered to four of the Group's fleets, Greater Manchester, Bristol Omnibus Co, CalderLine, West Yorkshire, and Northampton Transport. A new generation low-floor minibus is also being developed by Wrights and an announcement is expected shortly. ==================================================================== Jane's Urban Transport Systems & Jane's World Railways - 15 May 1997 ==================================================================== GEC Alsthom trains for SWT An order for 30 Juniper trainsets has been received from Porterbrook Leasing, part of Stagecoach, UK. The first of the trains is due for delivery in September 1998 and the fleet will be in full service by April 2000. The trains are being built at GEC ALsthom's Metro Cammell factory at Washwood Heath, Birmingham and will be deployed on the South West Trains Reading to London, Waterloo route. They will replace existing slam-door stock. ======================================== Jane's Urban Transport Systems - 1997-98 ======================================== The following are excerpts from the Foreword of the latest Jane's Urban Transport Systems yearbook. The full Foreword will be available shortly on the Jane's Internet Homepage (http://www.janes.com) The International Union of Public Transport (UITP) believes that urban areas must be replanned to meet the needs of their citizens rather than, as so often, the requirements of the motor car. Reducing space allocated to traffic and parking encourages more intensive use of public transport and non-motorised alternatives like cycling. But the challenge for transport operators will be to further refine their services to make them more attractive to a public accustomed to the privacy and comfort of a private car. Into the driverless era So what further contribution can public transport make to a world threatened by traffic chaos? Virtual commuting is with us, but it will not totally replace the real thing, and rail's dominant position in mass transit will have to be complemented by measures to raise the poor perception of buses as a quality means of transport. Clearly there is still great scope for technology to be harnessed in aid of moving large numbers of people speedily and safely. After cautious progress with driverless trains over the past thirty years, the 21st century will surely be the era of the automated metro, and of the people mover too. Developments in microprocessor technology have removed the last barriers to widespread adoption of automation, and if the experience of the twenty-or-so existing driverless systems is any guide, public opinion seems unfazed by the concept. Just as well, for driverless trains offer what is probably the nearest that conventional rail rapid transit can hope to achieve in matching the flexibility of private transport. Messages from South America Some of the solutions to the movement of large numbers of people will not suit urban areas with lower population and traffic densities, nor will they be appropriate for the rapidly growing cities of developing countries hard-pressed for cash to fund costly metro-building. Quito's trolleybus route opened in 1996 is an interesting hybrid. Rubber tyres beat steel on this occasion because of fears that vibration from trams would damage ancient buildings in the centre of Ecuador's capital. With its enclosed `stations' and priority at intersections, the route is virtually a rubber-tyred light rail system. It links interchanges north and south of the city, where conventional diesel buses feed in passengers from the suburbs. Within weeks of opening, around 150,000 daily journeys were being recorded. Another one-off, Curitiba's trunk route bus operation, has figured more than once in these columns, but the example bears repetition as a brilliant marriage of bus and metro concepts. The `Integrated Transport Network' was developed in conjunction with carefully planned expansion of the city along five main axes. At a fraction of the cost even of light rail infrastructure, the city has created a high-capacity transport system so attractive that more than 75 per cent of commuters now take the bus rather than their cars. In twenty years, daily patronage has grown from 25,000 to nearly a million, with the busiest corridor handling 250,000 journeys a day in double-articulated buses carrying 270. Clean diesels With stringent Euro-3 regulations and clean fuel it seems certain that emissions from the next generation of diesel engines will be low enough to be environmentally acceptable in general transport use for the foreseeable future. Diesel engines retain their advantage over CNG of better fuel efficiency and lower cost, though both CNG and electric power will play a role in sensitive areas where an `ultra-green' image is required. Diesel-electric hybrids have the advantage of eliminating the fixed link between engine and wheels, thereby allowing innovative interior designs. Traditionally limited by high cost, development of cheaper transmissions could make the hybrid a better option. Low-floor models are seen as essential in projecting an image of easy access and modernity that will help buses match the standards of the latest trams, and the long-awaited EU Bus & Coach Directive on bus design is expected to co-ordinate European attitudes. Finding space to accommodate wheels, engines, transmission and auxiliaries in an affordable low-floor package remains a challenge for the designers, while medium and high floor vehicles will still be in demand for cities with poor quality roads. But if the city bus of the immediate future retains diesel power, we must not forget that 300-or-so electric bus (trolleybus) networks continue to do sterling work worldwide. For many smaller cities, trolleybuses are the ideal compromise - quieter and smoother than diesel or petrol buses, good hill climbers, and with some of the appeal of trams but easier on infrastructure costs. They also offer an impression of what cities might be like if all buses were electrically powered. Next News Brief to be sent Tuesday, May 27, 1997. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: OmegaWeb, the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE on-line source (fwd) Greetings All: _Very_ cool... BTW- I noticed one of the links at their site is broken- the URL of the SOF Magazine homepage is http://www.sofmag.com/ , *not* ...com/home.html or whatever it is they put. - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:11:47 -0400 From: David Isenberg Reply-To: Discussion of International Disarmament Issues To: DISARM-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU Subject: OmegaWeb, the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE on-line source http://www.sofmag.com/omegaweb.html Welcome to OmegaWeb, the SOLDIER OF FORTUNE on-line source for commercial and selected non-commercial information. The companies, organizations and individuals listed on this site offer products and information of use to: Military special operations and elite forces [e.g., Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces and Rangers, Marine Force Recon, Air Force Special Operations, SAS, SBS, GIGN, Spetsnaz, French Foreign Legion, Airborne (parachute) forces] Intelligence and counter-intelligence professionals Law enforcement and security professionals Researchers (e.g., DOD, DIA, CIA, NSA, DIRNSA, NSC, KGB, INSCOM, USSOCOM, USAJFKSWC, FMSO, MACV, SOG) Mercenary soldiers (e.g., Executive Outcomes) Veterans (Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, WW2) Adventurers, martial artists, buccaneers and freebooters of all persuasions This site is intentionally "content heavy" and light on graphics, so you should be able to surf through it quickly. Follow the links for more graphics and details. We hope these resources will lead to success in your next operation or adventure! ===================================================================== David Isenberg, Senior Research Analyst CDI's ONLY genuine former enlisted man Center for Defense Information 1500 Massachusetts Ave, NW, Washington, D.C. 20005 202/862-0700 (Voice), 202/862-0708 (Fax), disenber@cdi.org (Email) Arms Trade Data Base Web Site: http://www.cdi.org/atdb WAIS Users: wais.cdi.org database atdb Arms Trade Listserver Archive: http://mail2.cdi.org/archives/armstrade NOTE: Unfortunately, the armstrade archives are no longer searchable by keyword. ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) continuing... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:13:27 -0400 From: Chuck Gordon Reply-To: Aikido List To: AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) At 01:13 PM 5/24/97 +0800,Brian wrote: >So what MA do these specal forces people study anyway? I wonder if they >do traditional MA or they get some kind of crash course tailored for >combat effectiveness. Very little unarmed combative instruction. Some bayonet and knife fighting, certainly nothing traditional and very little even solidly codified. However, many troops do pursue some form of martial training outside of the regular training curriculum. I have an uncle involved in counter-intel training who had opportunity to work with some SEALs a couple of years ago (teaching auto theft and B&E skills, BTW). Martial arts came up and they were asked about the ads in mags like Black Belt purporting to teach SEAL hand-to-hand. They laughed. The prevailing sentiment was something like "If you ever lose your weapons and have to mix it up with the enemy hand-to-hand, you're fucked ..." later, +--------------------------------------------------+ | Chuck Gordon Butokuden (Indianapolis) | | cgordon@iquest.net www.iquest.net/~cgordon | +--------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:48:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) Greetings All: From another ML... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:40:38 +0000 From: Blake Moorcroft Reply-To: Aikido List To: AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) Brian wrote: > > So what MA do these specal forces people study anyway? I wonder if they > do traditional MA or they get some kind of crash course tailored for > combat effectiveness. > > Any military folk on the list willing to share their experiences? > In the Canadian military, including Airborne and Pathfinders, there are no formalized martial arts training forms. They do teach hand to hand combat, but it is a polyglot of basic techniques for use against armed opponents. Most of them teach the use of bayonet and other short range weapons for using in killing the opponent. For those interested, most continue the MA training outside the military during their own time. In general, and I will assume this for the military of other countries, the soldier's training is in the ability to destroy the enemy (whoever that is) in the most efficient and easiest way possible. From this standpoint, martial arts is limited. Against a "typical" martial artist, a soldier armed with a rifle, pistol or SMG (submachinegun) at normal combat ranges will win without difficulty. In this case, winning is defined by killing the enemy. A "typical" martial artist will be a person who has trained in martial forms for 1 hour per class, two to three classes per week for five years (which may be generous on my part). More later. Blake Moorcroft (Sei Bu) Chudokan Aikido Dojo bmoorcrf@mnsi.net Chudokai Aikido Federation http://www.mnsi.net/~chudo/ Windsor, Ontario, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:51:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) (fwd) continuing... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:43:07 +0000 From: Kris Kelley Reply-To: Aikido List To: AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations) At 05:13 AM 5/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Sat, 24 May 1997, Kris Kelley wrote: snip stuff I said to keep brief: >> >> My comments come from these two groups whom I have witnessed >> training, and some of the things that these people do mentally and >> physically (as well as with weapons) is truly amazing. Yes, all have had MA >> training, but what I am speaking of seems to relate to the thread discussed, >> which seems to be: "Demanding the most from a specific exercise with the >> body, using all variations possible, in the shortest time possible!!" > >So what MA do these specal forces people study anyway? I wonder if they >do traditional MA or they get some kind of crash course tailored for >combat effectiveness. I don't know, but from what I got it was more of a crash course tailored for combat effectiveness. To chime in with Chuck, they did seem much more comfortable with weapons (other that the body!!) My focus at that time was physical fitness not MA, so I was not really paying attention to any MA stuff. A friend of mine told me of his DEA academy training, and spoke of some formal Aikido training. He was only there 16 or 19 weeks, so even if Aikido training was the sole purpose this is really not long enough for any deep study, in my opinion. Another friend is a British SAS team member (I think this is the name! Either special forces or counter terrorist team.) He is one BAD dude with his bare hands and with weapons. But, unfortunately like above, I have focused on other aspects, not MA's. (I am a handgun nut, this was my focus, as well as physical fitness. These people do neato things with handguns!!!) >Any military folk on the list willing to share their experiences? I KNOW there is!!!;-))))) Come on guys and gals, speak up!! This list needs a good blood and guts story!! Kris >Brian > >"I've seen Sun monitors on fire off the side of the | - Brian Baquiran - >multimedia lab. I've seen NTU lights glitter in the | Unix Gunslinger for >dark near the Mail Gate. All these things will be lost | Hire. Will program >in time, like the root partition last week. Time to die."| for food. Resume >-- Peter Gutmann in alt.sysadmin.recovery | available by request > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:14:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: (fwd) continuing further... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:07:00 -0200 From: CLAUDIO RUBENS To: AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: BPB>So what MA do these specal forces people study anyway? I wonder if they BPB>do traditional MA or they get some kind of crash course tailored for BPB>combat effectiveness. BPB>Any military folk on the list willing to share their experiences? Well, I am not militar, but here in Brazil, at least here in Sao Paulo, Judo training is part of the military training. And, at present, an Aikido teacher of mine, is giving classes to the GOE-Grupo de Operacoes Especiais ( Special Operations Group), which is a division of the military police. Claudio - --- * OLX 2.2 * Proofread carefully to see if you any words out. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:24:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations (fwd) More... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:54:44 +0000 From: Pete Peterson Reply-To: Aikido List To: AIKIDO-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Subject: Re: Elite Military (Was Re: Weight lifting - pushup variations > From: "Brian P. Baquiran" > So what MA do these specal forces people study anyway? I wonder if they > do traditional MA or they get some kind of crash course tailored for > combat effectiveness. > > Any military folk on the list willing to share their experiences? > > Brian I was on an A detachment in 5th Special Forces Group. (A "green beret" is the hat we would wear when NOT in the field!) Things might be different now, but this was what we did in the 70's: Nothing very organized concerning hand to hand combat like ads in magazines would have you believe. The members of my unit were all in very good physical condition. There is something to be said for running up and down sandy hills 2.5 miles a day, every day, rain or shine (6.5 on Wednesday!). Everyone was put thru a qualification course that weeded out people who did not have a strong survival instinct and unconquerable spirit. These qualities were further developed in those who made it thru the course. There was no necessity or time for much hand to hand. The people who go thru this end up NOT being your typical "John Q Public". They are well trained in weapons and tactics, in VERY good physical condition, and have a highly developed sense of overcoming all obstacles. This tends to make up for a lack of much specific hand to hand instruction. On top of this, many of the soldiers were interested in developing hand to hand skills INFORMALLY on their own time. I would get together fairly regularly with some guys with shotokan and TKD backgrounds. One member of our little group was a very successful judo competitor. We did a little bit of everything, with me supplying most of the joint locking. This was just my experience, but I think it is fairly typical of what really goes on in elite military units. - --Pete ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #45 ************************************