twilight2000-digest Saturday, April 19 1997 Volume 1996 : Number 042 The following topics are covered in this digest: Jatimatic/Tom Clancy Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III L85A1; Jatimatic Jatimatic Re: Movies about WW III Re: Movies about WW III L85A1 IW Re: T2K/M2K African info Re: T2K/M2K African info IW con't Re: T2K/M2K African info vets & Guns [Fwd: Virus Alert!] Re: Movies about WW III Re: vets & Guns US Order of Battle for 2003 (LONG) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:43:20 +0300 (GFT Daylight Time) From: Pietu Subject: Jatimatic/Tom Clancy As I promised, there are stats of Jatimatic for TW2000 ( From V2.2 of Finnish TW2000 by Janne Kemppi, Timo Konttinen and Joona Vainio. ) Ammo: 9 mm P Wt: 1.5 kg Mag: 20 box or 40 box Price: $ 800 (R/-) Recoil Weapon ROF Dam Pen Blk SS Brst Rng Jatimatic 5 2 Nil 2 1 2 40 Have anybody noticed how marvelous scenario Tom Clancy`s Clear and Present danger would be for Merc:2000 ? Specially story of ground forces in jungle of Colombia. If anybody have written scenario about that, please send it to me or write. Pietu "Faith to keep looking" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:44:21 +0200 From: "Marco" Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Rob wrote: > > My all-time favorite is "Firebirds". Yeah. Tommy Lee Jones, Nicholas Cage, > > and Sean Young must all have been very* hard up for work to do that one. > > That was a showcase show for the Apache, plain and simple. > Tommy Lee Jones I like, but he gets the occasional stinker. This > was no exception. A Ranger friend of mine said he was amazed > they were able to get that many shots of the Apache not suffering > technical problems. Is it that bad? Our Royal Dutch Airforce bought (I think) like 60-70 of them. There now leasing them from the US until new ones become available. I seems it is often seen that governments buy stuff that, in time, seemed very bad. In the Netherlands we had a situation with the Walter P35. It was the standard sidearm for our Police force (force ???), anyway this weapon has an habit of firing without pulling the trigger ('The Substitute'). If the weapon was dropped, it fired, very dangerous... I also read a story of the British L85 (AKA SA80?) In Koeweit British soldiers where more afraid of the weapon then of the Iraqi enemy. It was said that after 5-6 shots this weapon jammed. I really hope it's not this bad, cause my characters are often equipped with L85. It's one of my favorite weapons! Chris wrote: > (I'll watch anything with Samuel L. or Val; they're > my favorite actors-they can take the *worst* role/dialogue and make > ententertaining. Second-tier are De Niro, Kurt Russell, and Kenneth Branagh). I like Robert DeNiro in Cape Fear. I normally dislike thrillers or horror stuff, but Cape Fear is one of my favorites. Other actors I like are: Eddie Murphy (great con-artist, really like 'The Distinguished gentleman'), Harrison Ford (Great guy, I also like Tom Clancy, I think they took the right guy for these roles), Bruce Willis (Ever seen the look on his eyes when he is playing exciting scene's?) Patrick Steward (Picard's the best, Kirk and Janeway suck and the guy from DS9 does all he can) Bill Murray (The arrogance of this guy... love it! - We came, we saw, we kicked his ass!!!) See Ya M.Pietersen@ROC-ON.nl - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- "Save energy: be apathetic" - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:05:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Greetings and salutations: On Mon, 14 Apr 1997, Marco wrote: > I also read a story of the British L85 (AKA SA80?) In Koeweit British > soldiers where > more afraid of the weapon then of the Iraqi enemy. It was said that > after 5-6 shots > this weapon jammed. I really hope it's not this bad, cause my > characters are often > equipped with L85. It's one of my favorite weapons! Yes, something like that. The IW performed worse than almost any other weapon in the Gulf. I can't remember all of the things that went wrong. I will try to find the magazine article tonight detailing its flaws. The Steyr AUG sucks, too. The Australians are hating it. It is just fine for personal or police use (i.e. in friendly environments), but it is not suited for military use. The main problem I can remember off hand is that military bore solvents tend to melt the magazines. I will try to find the info on that, too. Another weapon that performed badly was the Beretta M9. Besides the slide failures, it was found that the magazines don't function in the desert. Apparently, the cartidges have to roll along the walls of the magazine as they progress upward. In the Gulf, fine sand grains were getting into the magazines, preventing the rounds from rolling. The magazines therefore would not function unitl they were cleaned out. The SEALs had no problem with their SiGs, though! (For those who don't know, when the US military was deciding on a pistol to replace the M1911A1, the SiG P226 tied with the Beretta 92F. the Beretta was chosen because it has a manual safety, whereas the SiG does not , and the military doesn't trust its troops to be able to handle weapons safely). > Harrison Ford (Great guy, I also like Tom Clancy, I think they took > the right guy for these roles), I'll second that. > Bruce Willis (Ever seen the look on his eyes when he is playing > exciting scene's?) He does indeed have the right 'look' for the parts. Too bad he doesn't know proper firearms handling techniques. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 11:28:59 -0700 From: "Judy I. Hale" Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Christopher Callahan wrote: > I thought I read a post a while back about someone writing some T2k/M2k > material for Africa. Am I remembering correctly? What is the status of > that? I'ld like to know about this also. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Greetings and Salutations: > Christopher Callahan wrote: > > I thought I read a post a while back about someone writing some T2k/M2k > > material for Africa. Am I remembering correctly? What is the status of > > that? > > I'ld like to know about this also. > TTFN > Ron Hale > I haven't gone through all the archives, but I am thinking that this mystery person was putting together some material relating to Angola. I was curious as to the status, and about his/her future plans as well. I have wanted African material for a long time. Three things got me interested: (1) the RDF Sourcebook (I *think*) mentioned that there were SF teams operating in Africa (2) the one issue of *The Eternal Soldier* that I have discussed a Somalia scenario for M2k and (3) I could have sworn that I had seen ad advertisement in the back of some v2 module for an African source book called "The Free City of Mombassa" or something like that. I can't find this ad in any of my stuff. Does anyone recall hearing of this, or was I just dreaming. I am interested primarily in East Africa, and would love to contribute to any projects dealing with that area (as soon as I finish my Latin American stuff:)) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 18:12:50 -0500 From: Darrell Swoap Subject: Re: Movies about WW III At 10:45 PM 4/13/97 -0700, you wrote: > >Greetings and Salutations: > >Another vet. Cool. How about you briefly run down your resume for us? >Inquiring minds want to know...We're always looking for any "first-hand" >information sources... > Resume? Well no problem...I hope I don't bore anybody... I entered military service in August of 1989 as a 67R AH-64 Attack Helicopter Repairer. After six months of Basic Training/Tech School I was assigned to the 1st Bn. 3rd Avn. Regiment, 2nd Armored Div. at Ft. Hood, TX. Deployed to Saudi Arabia in October 1990. The entire battalion was attached to the 1st Cav. Div. while the reamainder of the 2nd Arm. Div. (Tiger Brigade) was attached to the Marines. Returned from Saudi Arabia in April 1991. The unit was deactivated and moved, with all personnel and equipment, to Ft. Campbell, KY, and redesignated the 2nd Bn. 101st Avn. Regt. of the 101st Airborne Div. I becam Air Assault qualified in October, 1991. I remained with the 101st for four years, and exited military service in August, 1995 as an E-5 (Sergeant). Just for trivia, I like to point out that I crewed the same aircraft (AH-64A 84-24234) my entire five years of non-training duty. Hope that wasn't too boring...there's always more details, but I don't want to put anyone to sleep. ;) Darrell Swoap ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 21:33:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Greetings and Salutations: > Hope that wasn't too boring... Not at all. Since you're an expert, hopefully you'll be able to field a question for me. I've been working on and off (more "off" than "on"... a lot more actually) on T2k for Latin America (located at: http://www.techrefuge.com/hector/), and for the Panama module I'm putting together, I have sort of a problem. In order to give SOUTHCOM a fighting chance against its assorted enemies in the region, I had to boost the number of aircraft (primarily Blackhawks) to the point where the units are at pretty much full strength. This is obviously completely unrealistic, but things were coming out too lopsided any other way. Speaking as a former crew chief, what kind of attrition would you expect (due to mechanical and logistical factors-not combat losses)? Someone had earlier tossed out the figure of one third being still being operational. From what I've heard about helicopters, I thought that, realistically speaking, there wouldn't even be that many left..but once again, it was a balance of power thing. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 22:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: L85A1; Jatimatic Greetings and Salutations: I could not find the magazine that I was looking for. I believe it was a "Guns & Ammo" special edition, which discussed the performances of various small arms in the Gulf War. I *was* able to find the Summer 1996 edition of "Fighting Firearms" (which is put out by Soldier of Fortune Magazine) and a different G&A special edition from January 1996 called "Combat Arms". The FF mag has an article entitled "Britain Builds the Bullpup, Part II", subtitled "SA80 Bullpup: World's Worst Battle Rifle?". I will quote from this article extensively in a post tomorrow. The G&A mag has two articles which I will also mention tomorrow: "The Bullpup Comes of Age", and "Jatimatic SMG", since that has also been a topic of discussion as of late. I am just a little short of time tonight. Anyway, from what I can remember from the Gulf War story (which I currently can't seem to find), the M60, the L85/L86, and the M9 all turned out to be junk. Time-tested favorites (including the AKM, the G3A3, and the FN MAG and its variants) performed well, as was expected. The Barrett and the SiG also performed well in the desert. I don't remember how the M16A2 and FN FAL family did. I also remember that some NG and/or Reserve units still had M16A1s, which created logistical problems (ammunition-wise), and that there was a shortage of 7.62mm AP ammunition. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 11:40:43 +0300 (GFT Daylight Time) From: Pietu Subject: Jatimatic > > > a Jatimatic? > > It`s very little and tiny recoil weapon. They ( i don#180#t really know who is > > made it. ) > As I recall , that SMG was also used in some Sylvester Stallone movie, > "Cobra" , or something like that. At least Stallone used some machinepistol in that one, don't remember if one of the baddies used a Jatimatic, though. The Jatimatic is not that small, its about Uzi size. It was manufactured by Jatimatic, a company owned by a Finnish man called Jali Timari (see where the name of the company comes from? Thought you would) The key idea behind it is that the lock is at an angle to the axis of the weapon, and the recoil actually helps the weapon stay in place in automatic fire, working against the tendency of the muzzle to rise. It actually works very well. The weapon isn't used by the Finnish Defence Force. Most of the weapons were exported and I understand they mostly went to private users. A story I've heard regarding the demise of the company (and thereby the end of the manufacture of the weapon) is that business was actually fine, but that they got greedy and started making two weapons per each serial number to fool the tax/customs authorities. And got caught. - ------ Matti "Faith to keep looking" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 10:22:14 -0700 From: "Judy I. Hale" Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Christopher Callahan wrote: > I haven't gone through all the archives, but I am thinking that this > mystery person was putting together some material relating to Angola. I > was curious as to the status, and about his/her future plans as well. I > have wanted African material for a long time. Three things got me > interested: (1) the RDF Sourcebook (I *think*) mentioned that there > were SF teams operating in Africa (2) the one issue of *The Eternal > Soldier* that I have discussed a Somalia scenario for M2k and (3) I could > have sworn that I had seen ad advertisement in the back of some v2 module > for an African source book called "The Free City of Mombassa" or something > like that. I can't find this ad in any of my stuff. Does anyone recall > hearing of this, or was I just dreaming. I am interested primarily in East > Africa, and would love to contribute to any projects dealing with that > area (as soon as I finish my Latin American stuff:)) Let me know if you find out. Also, let me know when your finished with your Latin America stuff, I'ld like a copy. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:34:05 -0500 From: Darrell Swoap Subject: Re: Movies about WW III At 09:33 PM 4/14/97 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings and Salutations: > >Speaking as a former crew chief, what kind of attrition would you expect >(due to mechanical and logistical factors-not combat losses)? > Well all of my experience of course comes from the fact that we had the best logistics on earth. Considering the ability to obtain spare parts for helicopters in the time of T2k, it is my opinion that with NO spare parts available whatsoever for any aircraft, a battalion sized unit of say 30 aircraft would be completely out of flyable aircraft within a year. If you take into account the fact that you can take parts off of one to fix another, you could extend this out to two or three years before you had no flyable aircraft remaining. Also parts retrieved from battle-damaged and/or destroyed aircraft could probably be used to keep the good ones flying. So, after beating around the bush for an eternity, I would say that given a meager amount of spare parts, after 2-3 years in combat, that an average aviation unit would be reduced to roughly 10%-20% of their prewar strengths, even though I would also assume that they may still have between 50%-60% of their actual aircraft remaining. For example, the typical Blackhawk lift battalion consists of right around 30 UH-60's. At this point in the war I think it's a safe bet that 3-5 of them are actually in flying condition. For example, the RDF source lists 12 UH-60's for the 101st AAD, whereas the prewar strength was roughly 100. Also realize that, although only 3-5 may be flyable, I'd bet that they actually have about 15-20 TOTAL helicopters. Another example, from the RDF sourcebook, would be to say that the 101st has about 50-60 UH-60's, but only 12-15 are in flying condition, and the rest are just hulks that have been stripped of almost every available part. Hope this helps, and that I haven't offended anyone if I got a few details slightly incorrect. :) Darrell Swoap ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:35:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: L85A1 IW Greetings and Salutations: As promised, I will now quote to you the gospel according to Soldier of Fortune Magazine (re: the IW):
Barrel defects were reportedly responsible for some of the...delays to the SA80...Faults...included eccentric chambers, stripping of chrome plating, and metal flashing in the gas port. A burst barrel also delayed MOD acceptance of the system for a year, and extractor and firing pin defects contributed to a further six month delay in acceptance of the LSW. ...When it appeared, the British ammunition was filled with tubular powder, giving a different pressure curve. As a result there were problems achieving the required cyclic rates in early production guns...also went through a bad period when ammunition was turning up in units with inverted, cocked or missing primers. Reports from Germany and the U.K. confirm the early [British-made] 5.56mm bullet could break up in flight. This is thought to be related to the twist rate... ...another reported problem, that muzzle gases evidently rebound off the bayonet blade when attached, destabilizing the projectile. ...it was clear the bipod legs on the LSW needed attention, since troops had secured them to the bipod support with gaffer tape. Likewise, the gas mechanism cover was prone to pop open unexpectedly. ...a scare blew up about accidental discharges. ..during Roayl Marine troop trials in Norway during Winter 1985 an IW fired when dropped from three meters onto concrete, muzzle-first, with the safety off. This was rectified by an immediate recall...but it set things back by three months. Functioning in adverse conditions was an early problem too. SA80 evidently did not fare very well during Royal Marine arctic testing...in TV footage of the system, troops are often seen yanking on cocking handles. ... Other pitfalls exposed by cold climate testing included jammed triggers... Gurkhas doing their first SA80 training in Brunei took the SUSAT scope, but decided it was unsuitable for the close range...engagements. There were reports of SUSATs [internally] fogging up both in the tropics and the arctic...All units now take iron sights into the jungle. ...And reports still confirm SA80 loses its zero very easily if knocked about... In the early days there was also a problem with play in the SUSAT mounting system, which during one military press evaluation resulted in some 1,200 rounds being fired through an IW and an LSW for functioning only, since neither weapon would stay on target...the SUSAT range drum caters primarily for the trajectory with the IW rather than the longer-barreled LSW. ... Perhaps the most widely reported SA80 problem relates to the magazine release catch...When the weapon was carried across the chest, the catch could be accidentally activated, dropping the magazine...now there is a permanent modification comprising a welded steel shroud. But life would have been easier with the catch on the other side. The plastic ejection port cover proved a weak point and had to be replaced... Jungle trainees discovered that insect repellant attacked the plastics in the cheekpiece...Captive assembly pins occasionally pulled out and could not be reinserted... Plastic bolt hold-open and release catches were prone to breakage too... Bayonet tips regularly broke off, and the blades were hard to sharpen. At one point ther were difficulties with the bayonet catch too, and bayonets were being shot off muzzles. Though this was fixed, no one yet seems to have thought about insulation for the bayonet's steel handle, which gets very hot after extended shooting... New materials have been adopted for the cross bolt safety, which was easily broken... Firing pins were at one point fracturing prematurely, provoking slamfires... ...Extractor pins were also falling out, and there were eventales of bolts made from sintered steel, which failed badly and had to be withdrawn. ... Though the SA80 was run through with Colt magazines, Radway Green supplied most of the production versions. These have...a plastic quick-detach baseplate. Yet many troops said they preferred the Colt type, which some were buying privately... Curiously, the one non-rectifiable design defect of the SA80...is only occasionally mentioned. that is the inherent weakness of the box receiver...made from steel only 1mm thick. As it comes off the manufacturing line, the two sides can actually be squeezed together even using the weak hand...In-service reports suggest the receiver is also vulnerable to rusting... The LSW (and the IW...) suffers from a "split burst" problem which used to be a concern, but now seems to be ignored. Designers tinkered...in an attempt to keep all the shots from short bursts in the same group, but without avail...in 1991/2, 50% of LSW users failed to pass their annual Personal Weapons Test... ...One other point which has arisen with the LSW is poor welding of the bipod and bipod support elements, which have been known to fall off. ... In mid-1993 the U.K. Defense Committee investigated the SA80 again...the Committee had only been galvanized into action at all by the scathing reports of the MOD's own roving Land Systems Evaluation Team (LANDSET) on experience with the SA80 in Desert Storm. The summary of LANDSET's report (which the MOD subsequently tried to play down) reads: "IW and the LSW did not cope well with the sand. Infantrymen faced the enemy in close combat unsure whether their weapons would fire or stop. Tactical drills were effected inthat provision had to be made to cover a man with a stoppage. Some section and platoon commanders considered that casualties would have been suffered because of weapon stoppages had the enemy put up more resistance in close combat." Sources that fought in the Gulf also reported that one- and sometimes both- fire teams in British infantry squads opted to use the 7.62mm GPMG (FN MAG 58) in preference to the LSW. ...the Committee accepted the astonishing MOD excuse that SA80 was a "higher technology" system than the L1A1, and thus required special care. ... ...Royal Ordinance was cheerfully saying it envisaged an annual export market for 90,000 SA80s after it had completed the U.K. order... But the only sales to date are 600 very early models to Mozambique; 350 to Fujairah and 30 to Sharjah, two towns in the United Arab Emirates; and an initial quantity (possibly 200) to Jamaica, with the promise of more later. In Ireland, Malaysai, and (embarassingly) the Falkland Islands, the SA80 was rejected in favor of the AUG. ...The acid test is whether the SA80 has been any worse than average. To this the answer must be yes... ... When the SA80 finally comes up for replacement, whenever that might be, fancy design features should be relegated to the back shelf. Instead, primary emphasis must be placed on durability and reliability. That way, next time they might get it right- even if it is mae in France!
From the Summer 1996 ediion of "Fighting Firearms", a Soldier of Fortune publication. For those who don't already know, the MOD is the Ministry of Defence, the British equivalent of the DoD. I interpret the last line to be an endorsement of the FA MAS. In that "mystery magazine" I can't find, it was also mentioned that the IWs even rusted in the desert (during the War with Iraq). It also mentioned some other problems, but I can't recall what they were... Another point (for those who don't know) is that the IW bayonets have a hollow handle with a hole in the hilt for the bullet to pass through . The bayonet, rather than fitting underneath the barrel (or over, in the case of the FA MAS) actually slip over the muzzle of the rifle. More to come... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:39:45 -0400 From: Mitchell Schwartz Subject: Re: T2K/M2K African info At 13:54 PM 4/13/97 -0700, Chris Callahan wrote: > >I thought I read a post a while back about someone writing some T2k/M2k >material for Africa. You did. I have a fairly detailed timeline for the Angola/Zaire war that I was going to use as a backdrop for my (sometime) Merc:2000 campaign. I had said that I would xlate it to html and add it to my web site. >Am I remembering correctly? You are. >What is the status of that? I got swamped with real-word stuff. You will probably have to wait a while longer (say a month). mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://www.intersys.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 12:34:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: Re: T2K/M2K African info Greetings and Salutations: > You did. I have a fairly detailed timeline for the Angola/Zaire war that I > was going to use as a backdrop for my (sometime) Merc:2000 campaign. I had As a tip to Mitch, or anyone else who is contemplating writing source material for Africa (primarily M2k), I would recommend looking at the February 1997 issue of _Harper's_ magazine. There is an excellent article about EO operating in Sierra Leone. For those who don't know, EO (Executive Outcomes) is a mercenary corporation, composed primarily of ex-SADF troops. EO has been the topic of several Soldier of Fortune articles (I can get the references for a couple of those if anyone's interested). Second point: I didn't realize that the French use either the Colt Commando/XM-177/CAR-15/whatever or the M203. In a news item on CNN Interactive (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/albania.italy/index.html), there is a series of pictures of French troops arriving in Albania. The first photo is of a French soldier with an FA MAS. Okay, fine. The third photo, however, shows several soldiers talking, one of them with a Colt Shorty/M203. That soldier appears to be wearing the same camouflage fatigues as the soldier in the first photo, leading me to believe the caption is correct when it identifies the troops as French. I knew the French used some other interesting weapons, but I have never heard of the France using either the Colt Commando OR the M203. In a magazine called _Raids_ (sort of a European version of _International Combat Arms_, for those who remember that magazine), there were a couple of articles about France putting down a coup in some former French possession (I can't remember where at the moment-it was when they captured Bob Denard), and it showed the French troops with M79s and MP-5SDs. The article said that they regularly issue the -SDs when house-to-house fighting is anticipated, in order to protect the troops' hearing from the massive reverberation that comes with indoor gunfire, rather than for secrecy. If anyone ever starts writing anything for Somalia, Ethiopia, The Great Rift Valley, or any other locale in Eastern Africa, let me know. I would love to get involved, and I have a *small* collection of reference material that might be of use. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 23:27:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Callahan Subject: IW con't Greetings and Salutations: Well I promised you more on the L85... The other magazine article isn't that informative. The most interesting point it makes is that the IW weighs 2 pounds more than an M16A2, which doesn't sound like a lot, until one has been humping it around all day. One thing I neglected to mention in last night's summary of the SOF article (I think it was in that one) is that British SpecOps (specifically the SAS) chose the Steyr AUG over the domestically produced IW. Now that says a lot... I came across a reference to a rifle I've never heard of before (*that* says a lot, too :)). There was no picture, nor was any information given. The gun was just mentioned in passing. It (supposedly) is a Brazilian bullpup rifle called the LAPA FA Mod 03. All I have is the name and country of origin. Has anyone else ever heard of it? I was going to talk about the Jatimatic, but Matti beat me to it. I have some more detailed info, but the basics have already been covered. There is one conflict though: the article I have (A Guns & Ammo special edition called "Combat Arms", from January 1996) says, "The Jatimatic was brought to the attention of the Finnish and European gun trade in 1983...The lack of large domestic official interest in procuring and the lack of government support for this private venture in exporting the Jatimatic brought production and development to a halt...During the years, some foreign companies have shown interest in the patent and manufacturing rights. But none of these inquiries has led to anything further." There is no mention of the fraudulent business practices described in the previous post. Do you have an identifiable source for that info? I'd kind of like to find out for sure one way or another. The article goes on to say, "As this article was going to press, there was news of a new and improved version of the basic Jatimatic..." The main differences are the addition of a (top-folding) stock, and the replacement of the progressive trigger with a more conventional selector switch. Well I guess I did end up talkng about the Jatimatic, didn't I? Another question for our resident helicopter expert :). What would be a typical ratio of flying time to down time? How many maintenance hours are spent for every hour of flying time? I just thought I'd ask since your response to my last question was so informative. :) Do we currently have any other vets out there {or did we lose them all to attrition :( }? Happy posting... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:20:13 -0700 From: "Judy I. Hale" Subject: Re: T2K/M2K African info Mitchell Schwartz wrote: > You did. I have a fairly detailed timeline for the Angola/Zaire war that I > was going to use as a backdrop for my (sometime) Merc:2000 campaign. I had > said that I would xlate it to html and add it to my web site. Please post it in a plain text format for easier use after download. TTFN Ron Hale ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 16:43:33 +0200 From: "Marco" Subject: vets & Guns Well, It's nice to hear that there are some grunts out there. Reading this list makes me understand what people play twilight... I alway thought (based on nothing!) that these players were the desk-jockey type, who never knew how a rifle looked like. I figured that the military people were too busy being soldiers overday to play twilight in the evening. But I was wrong. I always thought that I knew something about guns. Most of my friends don't know the difference between an MP5 and an UZI. But compared to you people I don't know nothing! Do we currently have any other vets out there {or did we lose them all to attrition :( }? And can you explain me this last word, 'attrition'? Is it a normal English word or some sort of other game? (yes I know, my English is not good...) Thanx & bye M.Pietersen@ROC-ON.nl - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." -- Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless March of science, 1949 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:55:40 -0700 From: "Judy I. Hale" Subject: [Fwd: Virus Alert!] X-POP3-Rcpt: rrrj@twilight Return-Path: nostromo!MP-error@nostromo.gate.net Received: from osceola.gate.net (root@osceola.gate.net [199.227.0.18]) by twilight.c-zone.net (8.8.5/8.8.0(twilight)) with ESMTP id FAA24187 for ; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:08:09 -0700 Received: from inca.gate.net (upbpost@inca.gate.net [199.227.0.11]) by osceola.gate.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA460934; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:07:45 -0400 Received: (from upbpost@localhost) by inca.gate.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA20648; Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:08:34 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: inca.gate.net: upbpost set sender to nostromo!MP-error@nostromo.gate.net using -f Received: by nostromo.gate.net (V1.17-beta/Amiga) id ; Fri, 18 Apr 97 07:05:13 EST Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970418055047.0a1f84ba@digital.net> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 05:50:47 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: MP@nostromo.gate.net (Mailinglist 'MP') Sender: MP-error@nostromo.gate.net Precedence: bulk From: "Walter M. Rauch" To: mp@nostromo.gate.net Subject: Virus Alert! Hey everyone! This came from the guy who runs the ATG web page, via my father. Beware. >>> THERE IS A NEW AOL SCAM."It is essential that this problem be reconciled >as >soon as possible. A few hours ago, I opened an E-mail that had the subject >heading of aol4free.com Within seconds of opening it, a window appeared >and >began to display my files that were being deleted. I immediately shut down >my computer, but it was too late. This virus wiped me out. It ate the >Anti-Virus Software that comes with the Windows '95 Program along with >F-Prot >AVS. Neither was able to detect it. Please be careful and send this to as >many people as possible, so maybe this new virus can be eliminated.<< > > >Do not open this e-mail if you get it. Delete it at once! > Walter M. Rauch Student of Many Things walt@digital.net *********************************************************************** * The Morrow Project's FRPG List! To unsubscribe send Email to * * ListServ@nostromo.gate.net and in the body of message type * * "delete yourname@yoursite MP" (minus the "" of course:) All other * * questions should be sent to damocles@nostromo.gate.net. * *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:34:44 -0400 (EDT) From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Movies about WW III Hello All just a few questions I was wondering if anyone knew any movies out there about World War III besides Red Dawn? and: Can anyone explain why I'm getting messages from this mailing list out of sequence? Often I get a bunch of responses before the original post. Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 15:47:22 -0400 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: vets & Guns >Do we currently have any other vets out there {or did we lose >them all to attrition :( }? >And can you explain me this last word, 'attrition'? Is it a normal >English word or some sort of other game? (yes I know, my >English is not good...) Hi, I think there are plenty of vets that play TW2K and Merc. People who've been on the 'inside' tend to add a bit of realism and perhaps some real world flavor to any session and but being 'ex-military' doesn't mean that their point of view be the end-all-be-all of any session. Afterall, TW2K is to have fun, not quibble on how long a G11 or how many ounces exactly a k-bar is. =) John John Banagan, Combat Medic (91B) 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "...you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life - but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud." - "This Kind of War" T.S. Fehrrenbach http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 14:27:20 -0700 (MST) From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton) Subject: US Order of Battle for 2003 (LONG) A word of explanation: This is the US Order of Battle from a campaign I started back in 1986. Specifically, this is an OB as of January 1, 2003. My PCs were members of a Special Forces A-Team attached to III Corps during the 2000 Summer offensive, who got trapped and largely destroyed along with the 5th Mech Division. They made it back to Bremerhaven in time of Operation Omega, but ended up going to England for six months to assist in evacuating US assets from that country. Upon their return and a brief rest period in Norfolk (along with a quick side-trip to New York City), they became involved inh Operation ALAOM. This operation was a long-term national recovery program. The first step of Operation ALAMO was to secure the Four Corners region, to use as a springboard for an eventual offensive into New Mexico and Arizona. This OB may deviate from "canon" a bit. We actually played this campaign through to 2020 (ending in 1993 calendar time). By the end of this campaign, the US military and civlian governments had rejoined each other, the US had largely defeated New America (which became a more long-term terror and subversion threat), had managed to retake all of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and a large chunk of northern Mexico, and ended up in a war with a resurgent and powerful France in 2018 over French military presence in Quebec. The campaign ended with the (now older) characters volunteering for one last mission into Europe, to help convince the various alliances of German governments and Warlords to attack France and so force the French to withdraw from Quebec. The result was a non-nuclear WWIV, as France battled US, German, Canadian, English and Saudi forces in North America, Europe and Africa. And then, just for fun, Russia got involved by trying to retake Poland. Fortunately, the combatants were largely still exhausted from WWIII, so the war only lasted two years, and largely ended in a draw. France withdrew from Quebec, and formally annexed the Alsace-Lorraine regium as well as Belgium. French efforts to spondor a new Egyptian government were quashed, and Saudi Arabia became the defacto ruler of the MidEast (less Israel). So why did I post this? Well, somebody wrote to me asking for the fleet information from this OB. I had thought this data lost with most of my early 1990s game files in a hard drive crash in 1994, but I was pleased to find I had this and a number of Operations Orders documents backed up on 5.25 inch floppies! Do you know how damn hard it is to find PCs with 5.25" drives nowadays??? So I bought a drive for $30.00, plugged it in and tried to reconstruct the files. This one is now restored, and I may get some of the OpOrd documents reworked in the next few weeks. Since I am going through all of this work just for the sake of nostalgia, it seems only fair that veryone one else suffer, or rather benefit, from my actions. Enjoy (hopefully).... US Ground Forces OB as of 1 January 2003. This OB assumes the withdrawal of most (though not all) US forces from Europe. It also assumes that foreign nationals and "other assets" that have been attached to the various formations over the past five years are now formally recognized by MilGov. Most of the forces evacuated from Europe were released from service upon arrival in the US. However, at leat 30% of the returnees opted to remain in US service. These forces were organized into the I Corps of the First Army, in Norfolk VA, in the 3rd, 6th and 28th Infantry Divisions. Shortly afterwards, the 28th Infantry Division was moved to Fort Dix to prepare for an effort to retake the New York/New Jersey metroplex in the spring of 2003. The balance of I Coprs remained in Virginia to secure the state under MilGov control. The Fifth Army is tasked with the retaking of Texas, New Mexico and Arizona. The 2002 offensive season saw the reconquest of most of northern New Mexico and northern Texas, and the goal for 2003 will be an offensive into central/southern Texas and northern Arizona. Sixth Army managed to smash the remaining intact Mexican Army formations in the summer of 2002, but was badly mauled in the process. Victory proved fleeting, as the surviving Mexican soldiers merged with the various bandit, marauder and reaver gangs infesting Southern California, and managed to badly trash the US 89th Corps. The 89th Corps was disbanded, and its survivors returned to San Francisco as part of the US Strategic Reserve to recuperate and absorb new trainees from the Bay area. In the Pacific Northwest, the 9th Army suffered at the hands of well-armed marauder bands (mostly New America cells), which prevented MilGov expansion from the cantonments in Seattle, Portland and Butte. The X Corps in Alaska disintegrated as poor communications and lack of supplies forced the large units to disband into smaller groups to live off the land. Individual detachments remain in communications, but it is unlikely that any reorganization of X Corps will occur in 2003, if ever. In the Persian Gulf, the Third Army got a share of the forces from Europe, in the form of the 38th Infantry Division. These forces are being held in Saudi Arabia as a reserve, and to assist the Saudis in securing the remains of the oil fields in the region. US forces occupy large portions of Iran and Iraq, as well as Kuwait. In Korea, the 8th Army managed to largely defeat the North Korean Army and its Soviet allies. An offensive into Eastern Siberia is planned for the summer of 2003, and all units are attempting to refit themselves in preparation. The 4th and 6th Marine Divisions have returned to Okinawa for rest and refit, and have been combined into one division (the 4th Marine Division). In Hawaii, the 29th Infantry Bde remains the only government for the region. Owing to a lack of fuel, ships and aircraft, these troops are unlikely to have any effect on the operations planned for 2003. This is also true for the 193rd Infantry Bde in Panama, which has managed to secure and repair the locks of the Panama Canal. The Panamanian government collapsed when the canal and Panama City were hit by nuclear strikes in 1999, and the 193rd is the only controlling force in the region. US ARMY FORCECOM Headquarters (2000 men) - Denver, CO Strategic Reserve 100th Infantry Div (5000 men, 6 AFVs) - Fort Carson, CO 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde Cadet Bde (900 men, 2 AFVs) - Fort Carson, CO 91st Infantry Div (Light) (1000 men) - San Francisco, CA 1st Bde 2nd Bde First Army (1000 men) - Fort Dix, NJ 12th Corps (500 men) - Fort Dix, NJ) 78th Infantry Div (1000 men) - Fort Dix, NJ 1st Bde 2nd Bde 28th Infantry Div (2000 men, 2 AFVs) - Fort Dix, NJ 1st Bde 2nd Bde I Corps (1000 men) - Norfolk, VA 3rd Infantry Div (Mech) (5000 men, 9 AFVs) - Norfolk, VA 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 6th Infantry Div (Light) (4000 men) - Norfolk, VA 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde Third Army (2000, 4 AFVs) - Saudi Arabia 35th Airborne Bde (Israel) (500 men) - Iraq 7th Armor Bde (Israel) (1000 men, 12 AFVs) - Iraq 109th Combat Helicopter Company (Israel) (200 men, 3 AH-1T, 6 UH-1) - Iraq 5th Armored Div (Jordan) (1000 men, 5 AFVs) - Iraq 38th Infantry Div (US) (4000 men, 5 AFVs) - Saudi Arabia 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde XVIII Airborne Corps (1000 men) - Iran 101st Air Assault Div (4000 men, 3 AH-64, 9 UH-60) - Iran 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 82nd Airborne Div (3000 men, 5 AFVs) - Iran 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 9th Infantry Div (Motorized) (1500 men, 12 AFVs) - Iran 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 6th Air Cavalry Combat Bde (600 men, 10 AH-64) - Iran 75th Infantry Regt (Ranger) (500 men, 2 AFVs) - Iran I Amphibious Corps (1000 men, 2 AFVs) - Kuwait 1st Marine Div (3000 men, 4 AFVs) - Iraq 1st Regt 5th Regt 7th Regt 3rd Marine Div (4000 men, 4 AFVs) - Iraq 3rd Regt 4th Regt 9th Regt 24th Infantry Div (Mech) (2000 men, 7 AFVs) - Iraq 1st Bde 2nd Bde 48th Mech Inf Bde (GA NG) Fifth Army (1500 men) - Memphis, TN 194th Armored Bde (1600 men, 30 AFVs) - Cairo, IL 197th Infantry Bde (Mech) (1500 men, 12 AFVs) - Memphis, TN 90th Corps (1000 men) - Fort Sill, OK 49th Armored Division (3000 men, 20 AFVs) - Ardmore, OK 1st Bde (TX NG) 2nd Bde (TX NG) 3rd Bde (TX NG) 95th Infantry Division (Light) (4000 men, 1 AFV) - Fort Sill, OK 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde School Bde (1,000 men) - Ft Leavenworth, KA 122nd Corps (500 men) - Fort Wingate, NM 85th Infantry Division (1000 men, 1 AFV) - Fort Wingate, NM 1st Bde 98th Infantry Division (3000 men, 2 AFVs) - Albuquerque, NM 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde Sixth Army (1500 men) - San Francisco, CA 63rd Corps (1000 men) - Fort Ord, CA 46th Infantry Division (2000 men) - Fort Ord, CA 58th Infantry Bde (MD NG) 92nd Infantry Bde (PR NG) 116th Infantry Bde (VA NG) 49th Military Police Bde (700 men, 1 AFV) - Lemoore AFB, CA Ninth Army (1000 men) - Fort Lewis, WA 8th Corps (1000 men) - Fort Lewis, WA 47th Infantry Division (5000 men) - Fort Lewis, WA 1st Infantry Bde (MN NG) 34th Infantry Bde (IA NG) 66th Infantry Bde (IL NG) 104th Infantry Div (Light) (4000 men, 2 AFVs) - Butte, MN 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 41st Infantry Bde (OR NG) (1000 men) - Portland, OR PACCOM 29th Infantry Bde (HI NG) (3000 men, 8 AFVs) - Honolulu, HI 193rd Infantry Bde (1000 men, 6 AFVs) - Fort Amador, Panama XI Corps (Attached to Germany Third Army) (1000 men) - Germany 5th Infantry Div (Mech) (500 men, 2 AFVs) - Germany 1st Bde 8th Infantry Div (Mech) (2000 men, 10 AFVs) - Lithuania 1st Bde 2nd Bde 50th Armored Div (2500 men, 35 AFVs) - Poland 1st Armored Bde (NJ NG) 2nd Armored Bde (NJ NG) 86th Armored Bde (VT NG) 2nd Marine Division (3500 men, 12 AFVs) - Poland 2nd Regt 6th Regt 8th Regt 4th Mechanized Bde (Canada) (1000 men, 3 AFVs) - Poland 116th Armored Cavalry Regt (ID NG) (500 men, 6 AFVs) - Poland Eighth Army (1000 men) - Okinawa II Amphibious Corps (500 men) - Korea 4th Marine Div (1000 men, 4 AFVs) - Okinawa 23rd Regt 16th Regt 5th Marine Div (2000 men, 12 AFVs) - Korea 24th Regt 25th Regt II Corps (1000 men) - Korea 7th Infantry Div (Light) (500 men) - Korea 1st Bde 26th Infantry Div (Light) (5000 men, 1 AFV) - Korea 1st Bde (MA NG) 2nd Bde (MA NG) 43rd Bde (CT NG) 45th Infantry Div (2000 men) - Korea 39th Infantry Bde (AR NG) 45th Infantry Bde (OK NG) 53rd Infantry Bde (FL NG) VI Corps (500 men) - Korea 2nd Infantry Div (200 men, 3 AFVs) - Korea 1st Bde 2nd Bde 3rd Bde 25th Infantry Div (Light) (500 men) - Korea 1st Bde 41st Infantry Div (2000 men) - Korea 33rd Infantry Bde (IL NG) 73rd Infantry Bde (OH NG) 106th Infantry Bde (IL NG) 163rd Armored Cavalry Regt (MT NG) (300 men, 4 AFVs) - Korea US Naval Forces OB as of 1 January 2003 This OB assumes surviving naval assets in Europe were withdrawn with the ground forces. The ships listed here are not at all fully operational; they are at least afloat and capable of generating internal power. Most of the ships listed are missing one or more key weapons or sensor systems, and are critically short of electronics spares and missile reloads. Also, all helicopters assigned to the various non-carriers have been removed from those ship (if they are operational) and assigned to composite naval aviation squadrons. In the United States, excess naval and marine personnel have been reassigned to Provisional Marine Regiments, and are being used for security at the remaining naval facilities. US NAVY Sixth Fleet (Atlantic Fleet) TF-61 - Norfolk, VA 29th Provisional Marine Regt (1000 men) SSN-705 Corpus Christi CG-20 Richmond K Turner DD-965 Kinkaid DD-940 Manley DD-943 Blandy DDG-37 Farragut DDG-39 MacDonough FF-1057 Rathburne FF-1083 Cooke LST-1180 Maniwotock LST-1187 Tuscaloosa WMEC-347 Steadfast WMEC-426 Hopeful WMEC-645 Succour AO-112 Ashtabula TAO-79 Mispillion 3x LCM-6 6x PTB-3 TF-62 - Toms River, NJ 30th Provisional Marine Regt (1000 men) DD-978 Stump DD-942 Bigelow DDG-45 Dewey FF-1068 Vreeland LST-1195 Barbour County WMEC-367 Resolute WMEC-422 Insistence WMEC-577 Robert J Morse WMEC-589 Perilous WMEC-619 Confidence 4x LCM-6 2x PTB-3 2nd Marine Aviation Wing - Lakehurst NAS, NJ VMFA-107 (3x F-18A) VMFA-276 (2x AV-8) HMHR-207 (2x UH-60, 3x CH-47) 1st Composite Naval Aviation Wing - Norfolk, VA VF-231 (3x F-14, 1x F-18) VFA-110 (3x A-6, 1x EA-6, 1x K-6) VFS-129 (4x P-3) VFH-532 (2x SH-60, 2x SH-2) VFC-835 (2x E-2) Seventh Fleet TF-71 - San Francisco, CA 32nd Provisional Marine Regt (1000 men) CG-29 Jouett SSN-704 Baltimore DDG-32 John Paul Jones DDG-51 Arleigh Burke FFG-8 McInerney FFG-47 Nicholas FF-1038 McCloy TAO-146 Neosho AOR-2 Charles Town 4x LCM-6 8x PTM-2 3x PTB-3 TF-72 - Seattle, WA 31st Provisional Marine Regt (500 men) SSBN-626 Daniel Webster SSN-647 Pogy SSN-665 Guitaro DD-977 Briscoe FFG-9 Wadsworth 8x PTM-2 5x LCM-6 TF-73 - Okinawa FFG-26 Gallery FFG-28 Boone FF-1060 Lang LPD-9 Denver AE-21 Suribachi 5x PTB-3 3x LCM-6 TF-74 - Pearl Harbor, HI 35th Provisional Marine Regt (500 men) FF-1095 Truett LST-1186 Cayuga 3x PTM-2 3x LCM-6 TF-76 - Persian Gulf LPD-13 Nashville LHA-3 Belleau Wood CG-48 Yorktown FFG-11 Clark FFG-25 Copeland FFG-29 Stephan W. Groves VFC-76 (6x F-18, 3x F-14) VFA-204 (3x A-6, 1x KA-6, 1x S-3) 1st Marine Air Wing VMFA-214 (4x FA-18) VMFA-442 (6x AV-8) VMFA-119 (4x AV-8, 7x CH-53, 6x AH-1T, 2x UH-60) HMC-332 (6x AH-1V) HMHR-301 (6x CH-53, 4x UH-60) 2nd Composite Naval Aviation Wing - San Francisco, CA VF-177 (2x F-18, 1x F-14) VMFR-278 (3x A-4, 1x AV-8) VFA-322 (3x A-7) HMC-175 (6x AH-1V) VFH-967 (3x CH-53, 2x UH-60) VFS-645 (3x P-3, 2x SH-2, 1x S-3) 4th Marine Air Wing - Korea VMFR-228 (6x A-4) VMFA-209 (2x AV-8) HMHR-465 (6x CH-53, 2x UH-60) VFA-373 (3x A-6, 1x KA-6, 1x EA-6) HMC-289 (6x AH-1V) 1st Composite Naval Air Group - Okinawa VFH-672 (3x UH-60, 2x CH-53, 1x AH-1T) VFA-208 (2x A-6, 2x A-7, 2x EA-6, 1x AV-8) VF-535 (2x F-16, 2x F-15, 1x F-14, 3x F-18) VFS-351 (2x P-3, 3x SH-2) US Air Forces OB as of 1 January 2003 This OB assumes surviving air assets in Europe were evacuated along with the ground forces. The aircraft listed here are all capable of flight operations, but in many cases have degraded or non-functional radar or guidance gear. In addition, the USAF is woefully short of missile reloads for the aircraft, but retains a steady supply of iron bombs and cannon reloads, and even a limited supply of guided munitions. Over the past year, several of the Minuteman missiles that were offline or damaged during the nuclear strikes have been reactivated, and the USAF has retaken the few missile sites siezed by CivGov over the past six months. The main limiting factor for the USAF currently is fuel; supplies from the Kansas/Oklahoma area and from some shale oil fields in Wyoming have been sufficient thus far, but are all precariously close to enemy or marauder forces. US AIR FORCE First Air Force - Lowry AFB, CO 388th Fighter Wing - Tinker AFB, OK 572nd TFS (5x F-15) 496th TFS (4x F-16) 362nd TFS (4x F-16) 273rd TFS (3x F-4) 274th TFS (3x F-4) 57th Fighter Wing - Tinker AFB, OK 365th TFS (4x A-10) 943rd TFS (5x A-7) 847th TAS (3x F-111) 735th TCS (3x OA-37, 2x OV-10) 96th Interceptor Wing - Lowry AFB, CO 21st TIS (3x F-106) 38th TIS (2x F-106) 58th TIS (4x F-16) Ninth Air Force - Saudi Arabia 1st Tactical Fighter Wing - Saudi Arabia 94th TFS (4x F-15) 93rd TFS (5x F-16) 72nd TFS (3x F-16) 4th Tactical Fighter Wing - Saudi Arabia 303rd TFS (4x A-10) 180th TFS (4x A-7) 23rd TFS (3x A-10) 317th Tactical Airlift Wing - Saudi Arabia 357th TAS (4x C-130, 2x C-23) 756th TAS (3x C-130, 2x C-23) 81st WRS (2x WC-130) 32nd ARS (1x KC-10, 2x KC-130) 19th Support Wing - Saudi Arabia 1721st CCS (4x Hughes 530) 1st AMES (4x UH-60) Fifteenth Air Force - Lowry AFB, CO 314th Airlift Wing - Tinker AFB, OK 352nd TAS (3x C-130) 436th TAS (3x C-130) 37th ARS (2x KC-130) 60th Airlift Wing - Lowry AFB, CO 363rd MAS (3x C-141) 465th MAS (2x C-141) 662nd MAS (2x C-5) 58th ARS (3x KC-10) 552nd Support Wing - Lowry AFB, CO 552nd AWACS (2x E-3) 546th WRS (3x WC-130) Twentieth Air Force - Warren AFB, WY 44th Strategic Missile Wing (1 Minuteman) - Ellsworth AFB, SD 90th Strategic Missile Wing (2 Minuteman) - Warren AFB, WY 321st Strategic Missile Wing (4 Minuteman) - Grand Forks AFB, ND 341st Strategic Missile Wing (2 Minuteman) - Malmstrom AFB, MT 96th Bomber Wing - Grand Forks AFB, ND 463rd SBS (3x B-52) 587th SBS (1x B-1, 1x B-2) 46th ARS (3x KC-10) 1st SRS (1x SR-71) Steven T. Charlton scharlto@rtd.com I don't recall installing this "General Protection Fault" Screen Saver ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #42 ************************************