twilight2000-digest Monday, November 18 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 035 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Valmet assault rifle Re: Conscription RE: Finnish situations Re: Conscription Re: Russians v. Russians Re: Special Forces and other Re: Rangers Re: Rangers Re: Russians meeting Russians... Re: Special Forces and other Re: Special Forces and other Re: Special Forces and other Re: Russians v. Russians Re: Valmet assault rifle Armor Vehicular Load Re: Special Forces and other VS: Conscription VS: Vehicular Load Re: Special Forces and other Re: VS: Vehicular Load Re: Armor Re: Armor Re: VS: Conscription Re: Armor US military rank structure Re: US military rank structure ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:25:20 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Valmet assault rifle On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > > Anything else on anyone wants to know on the RK62? (that's the Finnish > > name) > > How's quality? Overall finish and parts fit? Human engineering? > Quality is OK for a military arm that is abused and handed over to a new recruit to be mishandled every yeat. Like the AK, it's a rugged piece of machinery which fulfills its purpose very well. The parts are OK too, the only problems I've had or heard of are that the "box" (don't know the English word, the cover to the box which has the lock in it) is loose. As it has the back end of the sights on it, naturally it has to be changed unless it fits really tightly. But that's the only thing I've encountered. The design of the places for hands have been redesigned in newer versions, they fit the hands better and are made of softer plastic, which is nice. The new design almost makes the good ole workhorse look like a yuppie product! - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:34:24 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Conscription On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > hey Matti, what about other equipment, like tanks and apc's. Twilight 2000 > says that in World War III the Finnish Army has Yugoslavian M-81 tanks > (basically T-55 with German 120mm gun) and Russian BTR's. Can you expand? Jyrki Paajanen (my good old GM) is a much better person to answer those questions. I believe he already wrote a message telling something about these things earlier, and hopefully he can find the time to expand on this subject, too. To answer more specifically the things you're asking, to my knowledge we have not bought any equipment from Yugoslavia. The T-55's have been fitted with some more modern equipment, and newer tanks (I think T-72s, but am not sure) have been bought from the Eastern German Army a couple of years ago when they had their grand "fire sale" after reunification. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:40:22 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: RE: Finnish situations On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Jyrki Paajanen wrote: >> BTW why did your Ministry of Defense go for Soviet/Russian >> hardware? Your tanks- T72s or T55s of one mod or another and IFVs- >> BMP1s >> (APCs being wheeled Sisus- what the Hell's a Sisu?). Only within the > They are many reasons why were have so much Soviet/Russian hardware. One was that after the the WWII we was forbidden by Treaty of Paris to buy military equipment from German or its allies. And as West-German was in NATO we couldn't buy anything from NATO countries. Same could of course be said aout East-German and Warsow Pact, but I think Soviet Union didn't control that as hard 8-). > Secondly our trade with Soviet Union was bilerateral, no money was used between nations. We changed goods for goods and government paid to individual companies. So it was cheaper to get Soviet hardware, especially because we could delivery more goods to them than tey to us. > And of course we didn't want to angry the Big Red Bear after losing two wars. > Our airforces have some Swedish J35 Drakens besides MiG-21s. > Sisu is a Finnish manufacturer which makes trucks and APCs. YK just bought PASI APCs from Sisu for peace keeping forces. Sisu is a Finnish concept closely related to gut (as in "No guts no glory"). And YK is the United Nations. And yes, we also have BTRs, UAZs, KAZs etc. The commo equipment is mostly Motorola's or German, though. Some rockets & missiles are Soviet, some French. There's a great number of different nations represented. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:47:19 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Conscription On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > I thought now that the Iron Curtain fell- Europe was supposed to > be one big happy family;). Of course you Finns always were a stubborn > bunch;). > Was it the aftermath of the Second World War (Finland I recall had > the bad taste to ally itself of one A. Hitler; the enemy of thy enemy is > they friend)? The strict neutrality to avoid antagonizing the Soviets? Lemme put it this way: Finland has always had to count just on itself in these things. There hasn't been a helluva lot of support coming from other countries in these matters... A lot of us believe it's best to count mainly on ourselves in the future, too. The Hitler thing... we had one war before that one (Winter war 39-40). No, nobody helped us with that one, attacked by an enemy many times our size. Shit, we didn't even have enough rifles for our soldiers! We needed arms. The Allied wouldn't sell them to us, because our opponent was the U.S.S.R., which was on the same side with them, although in a "different" war (the Winter war is usually separated from WWII by historians). So just guess once where we turned to for the arms and other help? Like you said: "the enemy of thy enemy is thy friend". Finland ended up fighting the Germans too later on, as part of the peace agreement made with the U.S.S.R.... - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:04:59 -0500 From: Mitch Schwartz Subject: Re: Russians v. Russians Jon Anderson brings up the following topic: >How would Russian Deserters, Former Russian Soldiers (Now town guards >and such), Polish deserters, and so on react to Russian regulars?? It would depend on the circumstances; If there are a lot of deserters and a few regulars, they'd probably show no fear, especially if the Russians were far from base. If the numbers were even, or the regulars had backup not to far away, hiding would be a good idea: deserters get shot or but in suicide battalions. Polish deserters would probably be able to hide from Russian regulars, but not from Polish regulars. The reaction would also vary depending on the behavior of the last Pact troops to pass through, the last NATO troops, the last troops in general. If the NATO boys were pigs, the PACTies may be seen as saviors (especially if the NATO boys were fleeing). If the last WP unit stole most of the remaining food reserve, they won't be greeted so favorably... Then there is impressment, which is like conscription with more force behind it. For instance, while marching through a village, a company stops for a rest. The commander sends squads out to roam the village; they return with 3-4 young lads or lassies in good shape who are told they have just been inducted, and that penalty for desertion is death. This can be done by ANY desperate commander seeing suitable material. For the record, impressment has been used as recently as the 1990s in Bosnia, in Africa, and in Afghanistan. The flip side: Russian regular grunts probably would not care (heck, bugging out and staying in a nice village with food may not seem like a bad idea). Now, officers with any loyalty to the State (Russian or Polish) would probably take a very dim view of finding deserters (historically, any ex-soldier without a true discharge in time of war is a deserter - in Russia, Poland, or New York!) Shooting deserters is only marginally useful to correct the deserter's behavior - but certainly helps to dissuade any else thinking about it! On a historical note, other than desertion, Napoleon's army used to shoot soldiers who acted cowardly on occaision "pour encourager les autres" (to encourage the others). More recently, as Mike points out, NKVD squads set up machineguns behind advancing Russian infantry so they would not retreat. >Interesting thought...I would think that since cantonment and so forth Remember that cantonments are areas held by REGULAR units so they can control enough food (and possibly materiel production or supply) to support the unit. There should be no such thing as ex-soldiers in a cantonment region. Chris Stainton says: >Well, for me I would think it maters on location. For the Polish they >are probably fed up with being killed for the Soviet High Command, and >instead feel as though they can help their homeland. Well, there are these Germans and their American allies trashing the region and killing Poles. But I am sure they are fed up with being the football field. Oh, and about the F14 and the windows... My father tells a story of Chuck Yeager (yes, the Chuck Yeager of Right Stuff fame): In the mid-60s, Yeager commanded a fighter unit in Puerto Rico. For fun, he and his XO (who was flying as wingman) were flying around and Chuck says "Let's go have some fun." The two fighters (F100s, I think) buzz a long stretch of resort hotel beach - at top speed at about 100 ft! They return to base after their pass, land and are passing the day room when the phone begins to ring. Knowing full well that it is likely to be an angry base commander, Yeager turns to his XO, smiles, and says "why don't you get that, Dave?" Ah, the perogatives of command.... :-) mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:40:13 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Special Forces and other At 09:49 AM 11/15/96 EDT, you wrote: >> I have NEVER seen an infantry officer without the 'black and gold >> half-moon tab.' > >I have. > Those pogues... ;) Let me rephrase that, I have never seen any in the 10th Mountain that don't have the tab. I have been told that all green infantry LTs are being sent to Ranger School at Benning as a part of their Infantry OBC. If they fail outta Ranger school, well, I'm not sure what happens, they're still Infantry LTs, they just get stuck with a crappy unit and hope that after their 4 years are up, they can choose another field. Also, it's somewhat important for line officers to have atleast jump or air assault wings as well as EIBs. Some don't, but a majority do. You can use all this info to spruce up your character's description. You can tell a lot (as in what they've done) about a person by looking at their chest (in the Army). John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:42:07 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Rangers >Rangers are tough! And you'vve got to have your shit together before >you are even considered for >it..................................................................... >that means Jump school already. Being an 11B (Infantry MOS) isn't >nescessary, >but it doesn't hurt either. Ranger school is a 'popular one' for Combat Engineer officers. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:43:43 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Rangers >Rangers are tough! And you'vve got to have your shit together before >you are even considered for >it..................................................................... >that means Jump school already. Being an 11B (Infantry MOS) isn't Oh yeah, if you don't have your wings, you get trucked in or air assaulted. If you do, you jump in... I heard during Ranger school, you have the opportunity to make an additional 5 jumps. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:11:19 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Russians meeting Russians... >> One should note that when grunts get pissed off at the enemy the kid gloves come off...<< When grunts? When anybody.....I remember this Iraqi Republican Guard POW That really had a mouth on him. He also fell down alot......Clumsy Fellow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:22:04 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Special Forces and other In a message dated 96-11-15 01:22:09 EST, you write: << Still Rangers have not been happy since for all intensive purposes a battalion was destroyed by our late mutual friend Mohammed Fariah Adid. And never forget political incompetence coming from washington and the UN. >> I thought 18 Rangers were killed in the battle for Aidid? Anyways I agree, never let the UN command U.S. troops. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:31:28 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other >>I have been told that all green infantry LTs are being sent to Ranger School at Benning as a part of their Infantry OBC.<< That'd be a deal! Hell, not only do you get crossed rifles, but you get a ranger tab to boot.....damn! That'd be a long OBC............................ >>Also, it's somewhat important for line officers to have atleast jump or air assault wings as well as EIBs. Some don't, but a majority do.<< Yeah, most career Line Infantry Officers will have Jump or Air assault wings (ROTC courses send their cadets to these schools every summer) and the majority of Generals (I've seen) are Infantry, and DO have a Ranger tab. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:31:28 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other >>You can use all this info to spruce up your character's description. You can tell a lot (as in what they've done) about a person by looking at their chest (in the Army).<< EXACTLY! You can tell by a character's BDUs whether or not he's been to combat before, Jumped out of planes, is a pathfinder, Air Assault, Ranger qualified, SF qualified (This was wierd.....one guy in Basic training-late 80's had an SF tab on his right shoulder, and was old --like mid 30's), was a drill sergeant, is a jungle expert, combat medic, whatever......................... This tends to make NPCs look at your character with a bit more awe............. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:31:28 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Russians v. Russians Mitch Says: >Chris Stainton says: >>Well, for me I would think it maters on location. For the Polish they >>are probably fed up with being killed for the Soviet High Command, and >>instead feel as though they can help their homeland. >Well, there are these Germans and their American allies trashing the >region and killing Poles. But I am sure they are fed up with being the >football field. Right..................I think that's part of what I was trying to say........... Who is doing the killing of Poles? USSR High Command? No. NATO Forces? Yes........ Perhaps the attitude of the Polish deserters is that thety are fed up being killed on offensives ordered by moscow, and decide to try to help their homeland (by defending cantonements), that's what the original thread was asking about, I believe. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:06:30 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Valmet assault rifle On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > The parts are OK too, the only problems I've had or heard of are that the > "box" (don't know the English word, the cover to the box which has the > lock in it) is loose. As it has the back end of the sights on it, > naturally it has to be changed unless it fits really tightly. But that's > the only thing I've encountered. Upper receiver/receiver cover. All AK type rifles have a problem with the upper receivers fitting onto the lower receiver. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 01:55:10 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Armor OK do we have any ex-armor personell on the list? I know we've got a Medic and MP, and a Marine, but what about armor? I'd like to ask a few questions about things that have come up recently, and a military service veteran's (not friend of.....) help would be appreciated. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 01:55:10 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Vehicular Load Does anybody out there (old timers) remember a rule in version 1 about how a vehicle can carry up to it's weight / 10 or 100 or something on it (outside), without it affecting it's load? It doesn't involve the listed vehicle load (like 1.25tons for the HMMV)........ It was a separate entry...... Just trying to find it, or perhaps I was using an ancient House rule..................... It seems odd that an M1 couldn't move if it had more than 500 Kgs (a little less than 5 soldiers) riding on top of it.......... I remember those WWII movies and newsclips of squads riding on the top of the tanks......................................................... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 01:55:10 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:22:04 -0500 OrrinLadd@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 96-11-15 01:22:09 EST, you write: > ><< Still Rangers have not been happy since for all intensive >purposes > a battalion was destroyed by our late mutual friend Mohammed Fariah >Adid. > And never forget political incompetence coming from washington and >the UN. > >> >I thought 18 Rangers were killed in the battle for Aidid? > >Anyways I agree, never let the UN command U.S. troops. > Yeah, it was something about that size..... and then there were the Blackhawk crews as well.......... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:16:16 +-200 From: Jyrki Paajanen Subject: VS: Conscription - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD3A7.8916E9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Finland's tanks was few yeas ago mainly heavily modernized T-55s. Those = modernizations are mainly for fire control system. We have a few T-72s = (similarily modernized) too and after reunification of Germans we bought = more from East German Army. We have no Yugoslavian tanks that I know. APCs are either BTR-60 or Finnish A-180 Pasi. IFVs are BMP-As. SP = Artillery is ZSU-57-2 which we have few. Our jeep is UAZ-469 and cargo = carriers are different kinds of Urals, Sisus, Saabs and Renaults AFAIK. = And we have of course NA-140 BT Nasu which is identical to Swedish = BV-206 Bandwagon (known as M973 in US service). Field artillery consists mostly Finish K-83 155mm cannon and some Soviet = pieces. AA-guns are ZU-23-2 Sergei, Oerlikon GDF and Bofors L/70. We have both eastern and western AT missiles, but I don't have more info = of them. Infantrymen have their Valmet 7.62RK62 or 7.62RK72 assault rifles and = Valmet 7.62KK62 machine guns. 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It doesn't involve the listed vehicle load (like 1.25tons for the HMMV)........ It was a separate entry...... Just trying to find it, or perhaps I was using an ancient House rule..................... It seems odd that an M1 couldn't move if it had more than 500 Kgs (a little less than 5 soldiers) riding on top of it.......... I remember those WWII movies and newsclips of squads riding on the top of the tanks......................................................... Chris It was 10 percent of armored vehicles weight. It was on page 9 in 1st edition Players Manual. 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Don't forget the Special Forces team and Delta Force team that were in the assault too... Of course their casualties (if any) weren't listed. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 10:58:29 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: VS: Vehicular Load >>It was 10 percent of armored vehicles weight. It was on page 9 in 1st edition Players Manual.<< thanks, I thought it was something like that..................... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 12:08:37 -0700 From: US DataCom Subject: Re: Armor At 01:55 AM 11/16/96 EST, you wrote: >OK do we have any ex-armor personell on the list? >I know we've got a Medic and MP, and a Marine, but what about armor? >I'd like to ask a few questions about things that have come up recently, >and a military service veteran's (not friend of.....) help would be >appreciated. > >Chris > Would a Combat Engineer help? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 18:27:51 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Armor At 02:16 PM 11/16/96 EDT, you wrote: >At 01:55 AM 11/16/96 EST, you wrote: >>OK do we have any ex-armor personell on the list? >>I know we've got a Medic and MP, and a Marine, but what about armor? >>I'd like to ask a few questions about things that have come up recently, >>and a military service veteran's (not friend of.....) help would be >>appreciated. >> >>Chris >> >Would a Combat Engineer help? Hey with all these MOSs popping up, this list should be ready when the Big One drops! ;) We have to coordinate a rally point fellas asap... =P (hee-hee) John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:13:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: VS: Conscription To all: I thought it was the BMP1 not the BMP-A;). Incidentally the BTR eight by APCs that have been so popular among those who have buy from the Bear have gotten the nicknames "wheeled coffins" by the Red Army. But as the saying goes it beats walking to work;). Course it helps if the 60PB and the 70 didn't use gas engines (the 80 finally has a 300 horsepower or around that diesel engine);). The main problem about Soviet armor is the fact they are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. We all know the stories about moderned sandwiched armor, the new gen of ueberpanzers, etc.- right? The Red Army always tries (at least in regards to tanks) proven design features. Low profile/small crew, cutdown on the number of crew, using manual transmissions and twin stick driver controls. The fact that the Red Army wants tankers around five four doesn't help any either (attack of the killer midgets;) and the Soviets have been perfectly willing to sacrifice gun accuracy and concentrate more on gun launched missiles (it seems design bureaus and state research facilties don't pay as much attention to long rod sabot ammo tech- but that's mainly the difficulty of cranking out APFSDS round when charge and projectile are seperated). All this of course probably doesn't effect game mecahnics;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 16:25:31 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Armor On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > Hey with all these MOSs popping up, this list should be ready when the Big > One drops! ;) We have to coordinate a rally point fellas asap... =P > (hee-hee) Speaking of which remember those "end of the worlder" types that screamed about who the World War Three was going to take place before the end of the 20th Century- so buy fancy guns (before they were banned) and cammies and tons of food in foil packs with names like chicken a la king. I wonder what those people are saying now;) Course I always did like the prospects of the world going to Hell in a handbasket via nukes;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:04:54 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: US military rank structure Hi, I'm not sure if this questioned was answered, but here are the current rank structures. The DC (or grade) is the data code abbreviation, followed by the title (or rank), and lastly the abbreviation of the title. The position at the top of the list is the top of the command and flows down as some ranks share the same grade. DC Army - -- ---- G5 General of the Army (GA) (5-star) G4 General (GEN) (4-star) G3 Lieutenant General (LTG) (3-star) G2 Major General (MG) (2-star) G1 Brigadier General (BG) (1-star) O6 Colonel (COL) O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) O4 Major (MAJ) O3 Captain (CPT) O2 First Lieutenant (1LT) O1 Second Lieutenant (2LT) E9 Sergeant Major of the Army (SMA) E9 Command Sergeant Major (CSM) E9 Sergeant Major (SGM) E8 First Sergeant (1SG) E8 Master Sergeant (MSG) E7 Platoon Sergeant (PSG) or Sergeant First Class (SFC) E6 Staff Sergeant (SSG) E5 Sergeant (SGT) E4 Corporal (CPL) E4 Specialist 4 (SP4) E3 Private First Class (PFC) E2 Private (PV2) E1 Private (PVT) Editor's Note: PSG is a leadership position title where as SFC is usually reserved for non-leadership or staff positions. DC Air Force - -- --------- G5 General of the Air Force (GenAF) (5-star) G4 General (GEN) (4-star) G3 Lieutenant General (LtGen) (3-star) G2 Major General (MajGen) (2-star) G1 Brigadier General (BrigGen) (1-star) O6 Colonel (Col) O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LtCol) O4 Major (Maj) O3 Captain (Capt) O2 First Lieutenant (1Lt) O1 Second Lieutenant (2Lt) E9 Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (CMSAF) E9 Chief Master Sergeant (MSgt) E9 First Sergeant (E-9) E8 Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt) E8 First Sergeant (E-8) E7 Master Sergeant (MSgt) E6 Technical Sergeant (TSgt) E5 Staff Sergeant (SSgt) E4 Sergeant (Sgt) E3 Airman First Class (AIC) E2 Airman (Amn) E1 Airman Basic (AB) Editor's Note: I'm not sure why, but the AF has two listings for First Sergeant, one for E8 and one for E9. I'm sure like the Army, it's in regards to leadership responsibility. DC Marines - -- ------- G4 General (GEN) (4-star) G3 Lieutenant General (LtGen) (3-star) G2 Major General (MajGen) (2-star) G1 Brigadier General (BGen) (1-star) O6 Colonel (Col) O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LtCol) O4 Major (Maj) O3 Captain (Capt) O2 First Lieutenant (1Lt) O1 Second Lieutenant (2Lt) E9 Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (SgtMajMC) E9 Sergeant Major (SgtMaj) E9 Master Gunnery Sergeant (MGySgt) E8 First Sergeant (1stSgt) E8 Master Sergeant (MSgt) E7 Gunnery Sergeant (GySgt) E6 Staff Sergeant (SSgt) E5 Sergeant (Sgt) E4 Corporal (Cpl) E3 Lance Corporal (LCpl) E2 Private First Class (PFC) E1 Private (Pvt) Editor's Note: There is no G5 equivalent in the MC. DC Navy and Coast Guard - -- -------------------- G5 Fleet Admiral (FADM) (5-star) G4 Admiral (ADM) (4-star) G3 Vice Admiral (VADM) (3-star) G2 Rear Admiral (RADM) (2-star) G1 Commodore (COMO) (1-star) O6 Captain (CAPT) O5 Commander (CDR) O4 Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) O3 Lieutenant (LT) O2 Lieutenant Junior Grade (LTJG) O1 Ensign (ENS) E9 Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON) E9 Fleet/Command Master Cheif Petty Officer (MCPO) E8 Senior Chief Petty Officer (SCPO) E7 Chief Petty Officer (CPO) E6 Petty Officer First Class (PO) E5 Petty Officer (PO2) E4 Petty Officer Third Class (PO3) E3 Seaman (Seaman) E2 Seaman Apprentice (SA) E1 Seaman Recruit (SR) Editor's Note: I don't know much about the Navy ('squids' give me the willies...) ;) A special case: Warrant Officers no matter what branch share the same characteristics as far as rank and structure go. DC Warrant Officer (branch regardless) - -- --------------- W5 Chief Warrant Officer (5-pips) (CW5) W4 Chief Warrant Officer (4-pips) (CW4) W3 Cheif Warrant Officer (3-pips) (CW3) W2 Chief Warrant Officer (2-pips) (CW2) W1 Warrant Officer (1-pip) (WO1) Editor's Note: In the Army, the pip represents a small black sqaure on a rectangle silver bar similar to a 1LT rank bar. The black pip is centered on the rank. Warrant Officers as far as leadership goes ranks above enlisted and below officers. They are normally not in a leadership position (like a PSG) as they are specialized in certain skills (AH-64 pilot, C-130 pilot, etc.). John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:40:46 -0600 From: Anthony Schmidt Subject: Re: US military rank structure There is no more Commandant of the Marine Corps? Tony - -- Since I so strongly believe in my second amendment rights to bare arms, I wear short sleeves. - ---------- > From: John Banagan > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: US military rank structure > Date: Sunday, November 17, 1996 8:04 PM > > Hi, > > I'm not sure if this questioned was answered, but here are the current rank > structures. The DC (or grade) is the data code abbreviation, followed by > the title (or rank), and lastly the abbreviation of the title. The position > at the top of the list is the top of the command and flows down as some > ranks share the same grade. > > DC Army > -- ---- > G5 General of the Army (GA) (5-star) > G4 General (GEN) (4-star) > G3 Lieutenant General (LTG) (3-star) > G2 Major General (MG) (2-star) > G1 Brigadier General (BG) (1-star) > O6 Colonel (COL) > O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LTC) > O4 Major (MAJ) > O3 Captain (CPT) > O2 First Lieutenant (1LT) > O1 Second Lieutenant (2LT) > E9 Sergeant Major of the Army (SMA) > E9 Command Sergeant Major (CSM) > E9 Sergeant Major (SGM) > E8 First Sergeant (1SG) > E8 Master Sergeant (MSG) > E7 Platoon Sergeant (PSG) or Sergeant First Class (SFC) > E6 Staff Sergeant (SSG) > E5 Sergeant (SGT) > E4 Corporal (CPL) > E4 Specialist 4 (SP4) > E3 Private First Class (PFC) > E2 Private (PV2) > E1 Private (PVT) > > Editor's Note: PSG is a leadership position title where as SFC is usually > reserved for non-leadership or staff positions. > > DC Air Force > -- --------- > G5 General of the Air Force (GenAF) (5-star) > G4 General (GEN) (4-star) > G3 Lieutenant General (LtGen) (3-star) > G2 Major General (MajGen) (2-star) > G1 Brigadier General (BrigGen) (1-star) > O6 Colonel (Col) > O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LtCol) > O4 Major (Maj) > O3 Captain (Capt) > O2 First Lieutenant (1Lt) > O1 Second Lieutenant (2Lt) > E9 Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force (CMSAF) > E9 Chief Master Sergeant (MSgt) > E9 First Sergeant (E-9) > E8 Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt) > E8 First Sergeant (E-8) > E7 Master Sergeant (MSgt) > E6 Technical Sergeant (TSgt) > E5 Staff Sergeant (SSgt) > E4 Sergeant (Sgt) > E3 Airman First Class (AIC) > E2 Airman (Amn) > E1 Airman Basic (AB) > > Editor's Note: I'm not sure why, but the AF has two listings for First > Sergeant, one for E8 and one for E9. I'm sure like the Army, it's in regards > to leadership responsibility. > > DC Marines > -- ------- > G4 General (GEN) (4-star) > G3 Lieutenant General (LtGen) (3-star) > G2 Major General (MajGen) (2-star) > G1 Brigadier General (BGen) (1-star) > O6 Colonel (Col) > O5 Lieutenant Colonel (LtCol) > O4 Major (Maj) > O3 Captain (Capt) > O2 First Lieutenant (1Lt) > O1 Second Lieutenant (2Lt) > E9 Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps (SgtMajMC) > E9 Sergeant Major (SgtMaj) > E9 Master Gunnery Sergeant (MGySgt) > E8 First Sergeant (1stSgt) > E8 Master Sergeant (MSgt) > E7 Gunnery Sergeant (GySgt) > E6 Staff Sergeant (SSgt) > E5 Sergeant (Sgt) > E4 Corporal (Cpl) > E3 Lance Corporal (LCpl) > E2 Private First Class (PFC) > E1 Private (Pvt) > > Editor's Note: There is no G5 equivalent in the MC. > > DC Navy and Coast Guard > -- -------------------- > G5 Fleet Admiral (FADM) (5-star) > G4 Admiral (ADM) (4-star) > G3 Vice Admiral (VADM) (3-star) > G2 Rear Admiral (RADM) (2-star) > G1 Commodore (COMO) (1-star) > O6 Captain (CAPT) > O5 Commander (CDR) > O4 Lieutenant Commander (LCDR) > O3 Lieutenant (LT) > O2 Lieutenant Junior Grade (LTJG) > O1 Ensign (ENS) > E9 Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (MCPON) > E9 Fleet/Command Master Cheif Petty Officer (MCPO) > E8 Senior Chief Petty Officer (SCPO) > E7 Chief Petty Officer (CPO) > E6 Petty Officer First Class (PO) > E5 Petty Officer (PO2) > E4 Petty Officer Third Class (PO3) > E3 Seaman (Seaman) > E2 Seaman Apprentice (SA) > E1 Seaman Recruit (SR) > > Editor's Note: I don't know much about the Navy ('squids' give me the > willies...) ;) > > A special case: Warrant Officers no matter what branch share the same > characteristics as far as rank and structure go. > > DC Warrant Officer (branch regardless) > -- --------------- > W5 Chief Warrant Officer (5-pips) (CW5) > W4 Chief Warrant Officer (4-pips) (CW4) > W3 Cheif Warrant Officer (3-pips) (CW3) > W2 Chief Warrant Officer (2-pips) (CW2) > W1 Warrant Officer (1-pip) (WO1) > > Editor's Note: In the Army, the pip represents a small black sqaure on a > rectangle silver bar similar to a 1LT rank bar. The black pip is centered > on the rank. Warrant Officers as far as leadership goes ranks above > enlisted and below officers. They are normally not in a leadership position > (like a PSG) as they are specialized in certain skills (AH-64 pilot, C-130 > pilot, etc.). > > > John B. > > > > > > John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) > HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) > "Climb to Glory!" > http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan > jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) > jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) > jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #35 ************************************