twilight2000-digest Friday, November 15 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 034 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Conscription VS: Conscription Re: Conscription Fallen Ammo Re: Conscription Re: Conscription NOVA last night Russians meeting Russians... Special Forces and other Re: Russians meeting Russians... Re: NOVA last night Re: Special Forces and other Re: NOVA last night Re: Special Forces and other Welcome to MPG-Net Mailing Lists Re: Special Forces and other Re: NOVA last night Re: Special Forces and other Re: Special Forces and other Re: Special Forces and other Re: NOVA last night Re: Russians meeting Russians... Re: Special Forces and other Re: Russians meeting Russians... Re: NOVA last night Re: Special Forces and other Re: Special Forces and other Rangers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:45:33 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Conscription In a message dated 96-11-11 19:34:58 EST, uchoim00@mcl.ucsb.edu writes: << Actually Orrin since I'm a gun nut the Finnish armed forces use... (snip) >> Thanks Mike, but I was hoping Matti would give all of us a unique perspective on the Finnish armed forces, not something all of us could have gotten out of the numerous publications in existance. Most of the posters on this mailing list are from the U.S., not that its a bad thing.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 07:33:33 +-200 From: Jyrki Paajanen Subject: VS: Conscription - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD06B.FBFF20E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I thought now that the Iron Curtain fell- Europe was supposed to be one big happy family;). Of course you Finns always were a stubborn bunch;).=20 BTW why did your Ministry of Defense go for Soviet/Russian hardware? Your tanks- T72s or T55s of one mod or another and IFVs- BMP1s (APCs being wheeled Sisus- what the Hell's a Sisu?). Only within the = last three or four years has the Finnish Air Force decided F/A-18C/D Hornets were a good choice to replace the MiGs in service. (Mickey-Dee- aka McDonnell Douglas is most stoked since not only they've managed to sell the Hornets to the Aussies, Canucks, Spain, Kuwait but even the Swiss) Was it the aftermath of the Second World War (Finland I recall had the bad taste to ally itself of one A. Hitler; the enemy of thy enemy is they friend)? The strict neutrality to avoid antagonizing the Soviets?=20 We could see in Bosnia how happy family we are here in Europe 8-). They are many reasons why were have so much Soviet/Russian hardware. One = was that after the the WWII we was forbidden by Treaty of Paris to buy = military equipment from German or its allies. And as West-German was in = NATO we couldn't buy anything from NATO countries. Same could of course = be said aout East-German and Warsow Pact, but I think Soviet Union = didn't control that as hard 8-).=20 Secondly our trade with Soviet Union was bilerateral, no money was used = between nations. We changed goods for goods and government paid to = individual companies. So it was cheaper to get Soviet hardware, = especially because we could delivery more goods to them than tey to us. And of course we didn't want to angry the Big Red Bear after losing two = wars. Our airforces have some Swedish J35 Drakens besides MiG-21s. Sisu is a Finnish manufacturer which makes trucks and APCs. YK just = bought PASI APCs from Sisu for peace keeping forces. 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Both are chambered > (at least for their rifles) in classic 7.62mmx39mm M43 Soviet. Gas > operated closed bolt with a thirty round "banana" AK mag. Sights are > mounted on the stamped steel upper eceiver- and in the case of the M76 > rifle the lower reciever's also made of sheet type metal. AK type selector > on the right side along with the bolt handle. Yup. Never seen the M71 except in pictures. The assault rifles we use are full-auto -- the semiauto thing was made for export, and somehow found its way into the T2K books, so basically it's bull. The "REAL" assault rifle we use looks the same as the AK, except with a stock made out of metal and plastic, consisting mainly of a pipe (which is hollow, so you can keep stuff like cleaning equipment in it) and some metal strips. We also have a version with a folding stock (mainly for paratroopers and MPs) and a few different kinds of magazines (I think all are 30 shot though, and its best to put only 25 in then if the situation is for real). > From what I've heard there are some problems with both Galils and > valmets in retaining a zero because the amount of vibration and fit of the The story actually is, that the Galils were made based more on the Valmet than the original AK. Wouldn't know about the accuracy of the story, though. > That's the gun seen in the Twilight book. Currently there might be move on > part of the Finns to drop money for a 5.56mm NATO type assault rifle > seeing how the Swedes adopted a locally produced FNC (known as the AK5) > and the Norweigans are going for Dieamco C7/C7A1 M16s (initial batches > going to Norwegian PKF troops in the Balkans) There's also talk about increased cooperation with NATO, so the 5.56 is being talked about because of that. On the other hand, we have -- in the past few years -- bought a lot of 7.62 assault rifles for the Army, and it is always nice to be able to grab your fallen enemy's magazine, shove it into your gun, and continue blasting away :-) Anything else on anyone wants to know on the RK62? (that's the Finnish name) - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:57:02 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Fallen Ammo >> and it is always nice to be able to grab your fallen enemy's magazine, shove it into your gun, and continue blasting away :-)<< Be careful doing that, though. In Vietnam the US (most likely CIA sponsored) would drop AK mags(loaded) for the VC to pick up and use, only the primer in the round had been replaced by a tiny bit of C-4 (and someway to detonate it) so when Charlie fired it, the bolts blew out the back of the AK, injuring and/or killing the firer. This is all just rumor, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:37:30 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Conscription In a message dated 96-11-12 03:43:20 EST, you write: << Anything else on anyone wants to know on the RK62? (that's the Finnish name) >> hey Matti, what about other equipment, like tanks and apc's. Twilight 2000 says that in World War III the Finnish Army has Yugoslavian M-81 tanks (basically T-55 with German 120mm gun) and Russian BTR's. Can you expand? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:00:57 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Conscription On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > Yup. Never seen the M71 except in pictures. The assault rifles we use are > full-auto -- the semiauto thing was made for export, and somehow found its > way into the T2K books, so basically it's bull. Figured on that much. Of course the problem with all assault rifles esepcially ones chambered in thew aK's 7.62mm short round that there's no such thing as a controllable assault rifle. IOW get a SAW and knock yourself out;). > The story actually is, that the Galils were made based more on the Valmet > than the original AK. Wouldn't know about the accuracy of the story, > though. No story. Truth. Israel's MOD obtained copies of the M62 Valmet and the Stoner 5.56mm assault rifle during the latter 1960s ahving been duly impressed by the performance of the AK and the fact remained that .308's sort of overkill at ranges less than 300 meters (since grunts do their thing at ranges from 25-200 yards) > Anything else on anyone wants to know on the RK62? (that's the Finnish > name) How's quality? Overall finish and parts fit? Human engineering? Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 19:43:46 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: NOVA last night Anyone watch that NOVA last night... on the Russian Air Force...REALLY COOL! Russian pilots in North Korean planes... Tehran attacks (choping off the tail of the plane with the propeller) Really cool Mig29 Fulcrums jono. - - Only other time I think I ever watched NOVA was to see the U.S. Top Gun episode...EVEN COOLER!! F14's RULE!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 96 19:48:17 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Russians meeting Russians... I have been thinking about this for a while and thought I would get everyone talking about it... How would Russian Deserters, Former Russian Soldiers (Now town guards and such), Polish deserters, and so on react to Russian regulars?? Interesting thought...I would think that since cantonment and so forth are so common in 2000 the Russian Regulars would not care. Just knowing that the former soldiers put in 3-4 hard years is enough. However, then again, they are sitting on their butts while the regulars are getting killed for them. jono. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:07:00 -0700 From: trekker@server.indo.net.id (Budi Primawan) Subject: Special Forces and other Greetings; I've read that in the US Army there are several Special Forces units like the Delta Force, Commando, The A Team and Rangers. What are the differences? If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got Recon, what's the special force of the Air Force? And also, could anybody tell me the designation from E1 to E9 (?) in the four services? TIA - ---- Budi Primawan trekker@server.indo.net.id http://www.starbase21.com/Trekkers_Page When you go home Tell them of us, and say: For your tomorrow, We gave our today. (from the memorial for the Battle of Kohima, 1944) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:06 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Russians meeting Russians... jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) writes: Here's my $.02(V/C) worth >How would Russian Deserters, Former Russian Soldiers (Now town guards >and such), Polish deserters, and so on react to Russian regulars?? Well, for me I would think it maters on location. For the Polish they are probably fed up with being killed for the Soviet High Command, and instead feel as though they can help their homeland. Or it's their Home, so they can destroy it if they want to.......at least that's what happens in riots, right? For Ruskies, Perhaps it's a steady paycheck, and a hot meal. Or maybe they are tired of fighting and fighting and having nothing to show for it. Maybe they want to feel like they're doing some good, by defending civilians who are trying to eck out a living. >Interesting thought...I would think that since cantonment and so forth >are so common in 2000 the Russian Regulars would not care. Just >knowing that the former soldiers put in 3-4 hard years is enough. However, >then again, they are sitting on their butts while the regulars are >getting killed for them. Russian regulars might look at the cantonments as easy pickings. They know the tactics and equipment used to defend it, and they might feel that the Defensers will bug out at the first hint of trouble (they did before, right?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:15:06 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: NOVA last night >>- Only other time I think I ever watched NOVA was to see the U.S. Top Gun episode...EVEN COOLER!! F14's RULE!!!!!!<< I love F-14's They just look so cool. Perhaps some of the Techno Heads out there will start ranting about how their specifications aren't as good as........blah blah blah. Maybe it's the fact that when I was 12 Robotech was my favorite show, and Veritechs look an awful lot like F-14s.......................................... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 08:48:13 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other >>If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got Recon, what's the special force of the Air Force? << A-10's!! heheheheeh jono. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 08:46:43 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: NOVA last night >>Maybe it's the fact that when I was 12 Robotech was my favorite show, and Veritechs look an awful lot like F-14s.......................................... << I go to the Miramar Air Show every year to see one thing... The F14 make the ground shake when they take off, pull verticle, and hit the afterburner! It is Incredible! Heres a great story I was told earlier this year by a guy I work with who used to fly F4's. It seems about ten years ago, the Miramar Air Show used to let the F14 pilots due a manuever where they descend towards the runway out of the east above the speed of sound. The pilot then, opens the swept wings and decelerates the plane very quickly resulting in a condensation cloud around the plane...looks like a flying cloud. Well, 10 years ago a pilot came down out of the east at or about the speed of sound, opens the swept wings, and WHOOPS Accelerated, pulled up and to the south! I doubt that very many of you are familiar with the layout of Miramar Air Base, but the runway runs east-west and directly to the west is beautiful La Jolla, CA. So F14 comes screaming out of the east towards Miramar with the wings spread and pulls up! The guy I know said the shockwave was so big and so wide he could see it coming. So this shockwave, approximately 100 yds wide blasts down the runway and strait into La Jolla. Every window bigger then 5-6feet diagonal shattered when that BOOM hit the town. Meanwhile, every Navy Flyer there is jumping up and down wishing they had done it. LEGENDARY! They do not do that maneuver any more. :( adios from sunny California! jono. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:13:54 -0500 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Re: Special Forces and other At 08:48 AM 11/14/96 PST, jono wrote: >>>If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got Recon, >what's the special force of the Air Force? ><< > >A-10's!! heheheheeh Actually (while that is quite funny) I would have to say it would be the Stealth Fighter Squadron. Rob. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 16:27:53 -0500 From: Rob Miracle Subject: Welcome to MPG-Net Mailing Lists I would like to take this time to welcome you to the MPG-Net mailing lists. Many of you have been members of our Traveller and other Sci-Fi/Modern lists for some time. Many others have recently moved here when the AD&D Lists moved here. Please read all the message. MPG-Net is committed to offering the best gaming, not only online gaming, but role-playing support as well. We support these mailing lists, and one of the largest FTP archives of roleplaying material around. (http://www.mpgn.com/) I don't want to hog much of the airways but I thought that a quick "status report" was due. For those who don't know, MPG-Net is now hosting seven new mailing lists that are dedicated to the TSR prodcuts for AD&D: Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, DragonLance, Spell Jammer, Forgotten Realms, and Birthright. These lists are in addition to the existing game lists: Traveller, Twilight:2000, Dark Conspiracy, and 2300AD. "Hey he didn't say anything about the Xboat list?" Thats right, Xboat usage is non-existant, and it has served its purpose well, however with the new version of "Mark Miller's Traveller" out, the segmented discussion is no more. Xboat will be retired at: 12:01 12/01 (all times EST). As a consequence of adding these new lists, we have had to upgrade our majordomo software from 1.93 to 1.94. Well this involved upgrading to Perl 5.003, and the combination on a DEC Alpha was, well lets say "Ugly". Any way, we now have it setup on a new machine, and things look good. We will see what happens when the digests bust over night (fingers crossed). One benifit of the move is that the mailing list archives are now on a local hard drive to the ftp server and are not NFS mounted, which should improve their reliablity. We apologize for the problems, but that comes with growth and change. Regarding the FTP Site and old digest messages: Our human support for these lists is on an as avaiable basis, so we don't get to process the uploads for the ftp as quickly as we like. I am going to make it a goal to see that that happens each Friday morning, but no promises. The old archive messages for the TSR lists should be in place sometime tomorrow. Also, for those who haven't gotten a recent update, our FTP site is now full throttle, and has plenty of open connections on a T1. Much better than 3 connections on a 56K! "What can we expect in the near future?" Well I hope to get a web interface to the mailing lists up, so you can subscribe/unsubscribe etc from the web. I want to tie in some information pages on the various games together. No time frames estimated. Finally, even though we offer these lists and the FTP Archive free, we still have to feed our employees, so be warned: Comerical comming: Please check out our home page at: http://www.mpgn.com/ MPG-Net Showcase Internet gaming is a very inexpensive way to play online games, not only your favorite LAN Games, but our unique games, such as the Fantasy favorite Kingdom of Drakkar, and the Dark Conspiracy based game, Minion Hunter. You can also use our chat areas for online gaming!!!!. Thanks and good gaming! Rob Miracle Your list admin dude (except for the TSR lists, which are still admin'ed by their respective parties). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:29:40 +0100 From: a_hertz@post4.tele.dk (Hertz, Anders) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other At 20.07 14-11-1996 -0700, you wrote: >I've read that in the US Army there are several Special Forces units like >the Delta Force, Commando, The A Team and Rangers. What are the differences? > >If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got Recon, >what's the special force of the Air Force? > ARMY SPECIAL FORCES: Special Forces Eskimo Scouts 75th Ranger Regiment Longe-Range Surveillance Groups (LRRPS) Special Operations Aviation Brigade 4th Psychological Opererations (PSYOPS) NAVAL SPECIAL UNITS SEAL SEAL team 6 US Marine Corps (Recon) USAF 1st Special Operations Wings Air Reserve and Air National Guard SOS 1723rd Combat Control squadron Anders, Denmark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:13:50 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: NOVA last night On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > I love F-14's They just look so cool. Perhaps some of the Techno Heads > out there will start ranting about how their specifications aren't as > good as........blah blah blah. It's mainly the avionics and the engines. Especially nowadays the current brown shoed admirals want to go with variants of the Hornet.... They could have easily went to GE and ask for more F110 series engines and Hughes for new radars...;) > Maybe it's the fact that when I was 12 Robotech was my favorite show, and > Veritechs look an awful lot like > F-14s.......................................... > Might be interested to know there's actually several Robotech mailing lists out there. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:31:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Special Forces and other On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Hertz, Anders wrote: > ARMY SPECIAL FORCES: > Special Forces Nominally all part of SOCOM. 10th SFG has Europe, 5th SFG MidEast, 1st SFG Asia, and I beleive 7th SFG has Latin America. don't quote me. Organization I think is on team and battalion lines (I think but don'ty quote me). Recently though many Green berets have been sorely ticked at the drawdowon and cutback in the Special Forces community and more and more of the missions associated with the Green Berets such as training and eduation programs (School of Americas) hsve been seeing the end of the budget axe. And the fact remains Washington has decided that the rAngers and SEALs could take over a lot of the same missions. Unfortaunately Rangers are light infantry and SEALs were designed to give the Navy a specialized strike and reconaissaonce capability not conduct long term operations and missions that Special Forces pride themselves on. > Eskimo Scouts Actually National Guard. In time of war (or during the Cold War) the AK NG would have been used to "round up/out" the two brigade 6th Infatry Division (Light) just like the Hawaii's 29th Infantry Brigade (Light) took over the duties of the 25th LID if that light infantrey division got called up to fight in Korea. > 75th Ranger Regiment The three or four battalions of Rangers aren't spec ops per se but their training esepcially in conudcting airborne ops without the massive logistical requirements of an airborne or air assault division combined with being seriously "hard" the 75th Rangers have supported special operations units. Still Rangers have not been happy since for all intensive purposes a battalion was destroyed by our late mutual friend Mohammed Fariah Adid. And never forget political incompetence coming from washington and the UN. > Longe-Range Surveillance Groups (LRRPS) Actually all light infantry divisions have Ranger like long range recon at divisional or brigade level type units if nothing else to provide good info on the enemy and to direct artillery fire. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:58:55 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Special Forces and other >> 75th Ranger Regiment > The three or four battalions of Rangers aren't spec ops per se but >their training esepcially in conudcting airborne ops without the massive >logistical requirements of an airborne or air assault division combined >with being seriously "hard" the 75th Rangers have supported special >operations units. > Still Rangers have not been happy since for all intensive purposes >a battalion was destroyed by our late mutual friend Mohammed Fariah Adid. >And never forget political incompetence coming from washington and the UN. 1st Ranger Battalion, South Somewhere (Fort Gordon?) 2nd Ranger Battalion, Fort Lewis, Washington, home of the 25th ID 3rd Ranger Battalion, South Somewhere 75th Ranger Regiment, South Somewhere That's all the ranger units the army has. As far as that incident with Adid, it was the 10th Mountain Division's 2/22nd infantry battalion that pulled those rangers and SFs guys bacon out of the fire. We had got the call, popper smoke and drew fire. But unfortunately, casualties still occured. >> Longe-Range Surveillance Groups (LRRPS) > > Actually all light infantry divisions have Ranger like long range >recon at divisional or brigade level type units if nothing else to provide >good info on the enemy and to direct artillery fire. Each infantry line unit always has a scout platoon. Whether or not they are ALL ranger or pathfinder qualified is another thing. Rest assured however, a majority of the leadership positions are ex-rangers, also ALL infantry officers are Ranger qualified. Period. I have NEVER seen an infantry officer without the 'black and gold half-moon tab.' John John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" http://www.imcnet.net/~jbanagan jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@geocities.com (alternate) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:03:40 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Special Forces and other At 08:48 AM 11/14/96 PST, jono wrote: >>>If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got Recon, >what's the special force of the Air Force? ><< > >A-10's!! heheheheeh Actually (while that is quite funny) I would have to say it would be the Stealth Fighter Squadron. Rob. >> What about the Special Operations Wings, they fly the AC-130 gunships and MH-53 Pave Low helicopters, among others. And the Para-Rescue Squadron (?), they parachute in to rescue pilots and critical data from downed aircraft. Or baring rescue, prevent others from recovering said pilots or data.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:04:44 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: NOVA last night In a message dated 96-11-14 12:05:29 EST, you write: << So F14 comes screaming out of the east towards Miramar with the wings spread and pulls up! The guy I know said the shockwave was so big and so wide he could see it coming. So this shockwave, approximately 100 yds wide blasts down the runway and strait into La Jolla. Every window bigger then 5-6feet diagonal shattered when that BOOM hit the town. Meanwhile, every Navy Flyer there is jumping up and down wishing they had done it. LEGENDARY! >> Where is that pilot now? I don't think he flew F-14's very much longer after that.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:05:26 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Russians meeting Russians... In a message dated 96-11-14 11:34:46 EST, kappaabz@juno.com wrote: << Russian regulars might look at the cantonments as easy pickings. They know the tactics and equipment used to defend it, and they might feel that the Defensers will bug out at the first hint of trouble (they did before, right?) >> Maybe they (Russian Regulars) consider them traitors and deserters and shoot them on sight.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:34:21 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Special Forces and other On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > 1st Ranger Battalion, South Somewhere (Fort Gordon?) > 2nd Ranger Battalion, Fort Lewis, Washington, home of the 25th ID I thought Schofield Barracks in Hawaii was home to the 1st and 2nd brigades of the 25th LID (What was the old Vietnam War nickname? Electric Strawberry). still if the three battalions per brigade sttructure's in effect that division's gonna havwe a fun time trying to fight off the North Koreans (note I'm pessimistic- not "if" but "when"; keep on placating the beast and if grows....) > As far as that incident with Adid, it was the 10th Mountain Division's > 2/22nd infantry battalion that pulled those rangers and SFs guys bacon out > of the fire. We had got the call, popper smoke and drew fire. But > unfortunately, casualties still occured. I alway wondered what was the real story behind Somalia. It'spolitical prupose, it's objectives? Is it just me or is "peacekeeping" to broad and confusing term for people to understand? > I have NEVER seen an infantry officer without the 'black and gold > half-moon tab.' What's the difference bnetween being a Ranger and going through the qualification course? I've heard the Ranger course mainly emphasizes on light infantry skills such as patroling, night assaults, etc. and small unit leadership skills. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:50:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Russians meeting Russians... On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > Maybe they (Russian Regulars) consider them traitors and deserters and shoot > them on sight.... Congradulations. People do read history;). During the great Patriotic War NKVD machinegun troops followed infantry to battle. The chekists put a good deal of backbone especially after the inital "setbacks" of the German offensives of 1941 and 1942. The Soviet army always maintained penal battalions but it's role was to discpline "old timers" (those who had only a couple more months to serve) who just slurped one too many grams for their vodka rations. It should be known that the Soviet Union has never signed the Geneva Convention and has treated prisoners with its own rules and expects its soldiers to fight to the death- especially when in Afghanistan where the Red Army's opponents were contemptously referred as dushman "bandits". And it should be noted that German POW camps weren't known for their kindess to the "Godless Slavic untermenschen". Alexander Zuryev, the MiG-29 pilot-defector was surprised about the Geneva Convention and Western "chivalry". Western countries pay the laws of war with considerable respect particularly the British and the American militaries. IOW thous shalt not torture or main prisoners. Thou shalt not act like Atila the Hun or Genghis Khan, etc. One should note that when grunts get pissed off at the enemy the kid gloves come off... Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 96 19:00:05 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: NOVA last night >>Where is that pilot now? I don't think he flew F-14's very much longer after that....<< I was told that immediately after landing, the Navy sent him off shore on a LONG cruise until everyone calmed down. Suppsedly the was ALOT of damage...But in the end all was forgotten, rumor had it. Were I a pilot, that would be my wet dream! letting loose a sonic boom on some glass high rises...must of been better than Die Hard Nakatomi plaza blowing up! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:23:23 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other >I've read that in the US Army there are several Special Forces units >like the Delta Force, Commando, The A Team and Rangers. What are the >differences? Well..................................... The "delta force" is actually a special unit comprised of individual from the army, but also includes some USMC, and USN personnel as well. Their duties are primarily anti-Terrorist in nature. Commando? You got me there....I saw a movie called that once...... the A team? Special Forces units operate in A-detachments, which is about 10-12 men, all of whom have a particular specialty(ies). They are in turn organized by B-detachments, who are answerable to C-detachments............ The primary Role for Special Forces (A-Team) is to go into an area, and train the locals to be a coherant fighting force by themselves, It was designed with the thought in mind that why send a division into a region when you could send a SF team? Rangers.................................. There are two types of Rangers. Those that are Ranger qualified, and those that serve in the 75th Ranger Regiment. The ranger's main job (75th) is to be a strike force, or a "commando" unit, if you will. The get in, do the job, and get out ASAP. They are tough, well trained, well equipped, and extremely well motivated.................... >If the Army has Special Force, the Navy has SEAL and the Marine got >Recon, what's the special force of the Air Force? USAF Special Forces? well the closest thing they have is the USAF PArarescue and Recovery Service. These guys go in and rescue downed pilots whenever & wherever they are, and sometimes have to hit the ground in order to secure their charge. USAF also has the Special Operations Squadron, based out of Eglin AFB, FL. These guys fly Pavelows, C-130 Spectres, you name it.......................... they provide the SF and SEALs, etc., with insertion and extraction, and air support. >And also, could anybody tell me the designation from E1 to E9 (?) in >the four services? How about I go from what I know, the Army................................. E-1 Private E-2 Private E-3 Private First Class E-4 Specialist 4th Class E-4 Corporal (Although they are being phased out, some Corporals still exist) E-5 Sergeant E-6 Staff Sergeant E-7 Sergeant First Class (also called Platoon Sergeant, if in charge of a Platoon) E-8 Master Sergeant (if in a staff position) E-8 First Sergeant (is a master sergeant who is the top NCO in a company) E-9 Sergeant Major (typically in a staff position) E-9 Command Sergeant Major (In a leadership position of a BTTN, BDE, DIV, etc.......still addressed as Sergeant Major) E-10 Sergeant Major of the Army (the highest NCO position in the US Army. Only one man fills it an any one time. It is a staff position) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:38:27 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Special Forces and other > I have NEVER seen an infantry officer without the 'black and gold > half-moon tab.' I have. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:38:27 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Rangers >>What's the difference bnetween being a Ranger and going through the qualification course? I've heard the Ranger course mainly emphasizes on light infantry skills such as patroling, night assaults, etc. and small unit leadership skills.<< Once you become Ranger qualified you are a "ranger". But don't run out and put on your black beret unless your unit allows it. The 75th Ranger Regiment does, and I think the other Battalions listed previously are probably just components. About ranger training................. Well it's about 12 weeks long, I believe (my squad leader's Brother was a Company Commander in the 75th at Ft. Benning) It does consist of Light Infantry and leadership skills. No one who goes through the course as cadets wears rank. So you being an E-3 might be in a tent with a captain, or ROTC cadet........... During the training you are constantly tested and evaluated ,if you miss three things, you're gone............it's that simple. If you can't make ONE obstacle at their obstacle course (which I got to run once....I wouldn't have made it to be qualified), that's one. They have phases...........phase 1 you spend at Benning doing Lt Infantry tasks (land Nav[that one's tough, too], radio procedures, tactics, etc.) Then they go to Englin AFB in FL for the swamp phase. A few years ago a couple of cadets died in the Swamp of exposeure because they got lost after they were night dropped...............an officer and 3 NCOs I believe. Then is a Mountain phase ( I can't remember where that is.........) Rangers are tough! And you'vve got to have your shit together before you are even considered for it..................................................................... that means Jump school already. Being an 11B (Infantry MOS) isn't nescessary, but it doesn't hurt either. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #34 ************************************