twilight2000-digest Monday, November 11 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 033 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Mass Combat Systems? Laser Weapons Re: Laser Weapons Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: TW Greenhorn Animals in Poland Re: TW Greenhorn Re: TW Greenhorn Re: Animals in Poland Re: Mass Combat Systems? Re: TW Greenhorn Re: TW Greenhorn Re: Firearm Debate(s) Hello? Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re:Snipers Combat recognition CIB Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Animals in Poland Re: GDW books Re: Conscription Re: Conscription Re: Conscription Re: Conscription ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:40:31 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Mass Combat Systems? On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than > platoon size (30 plus troops). In T2K, I just wing it. If the PCs are in a command position, then let them make choices and see what happens. Have "individual encounters" for the PCs. Kill & wound NPCs to the left and right according to what feels correct. I used to want to have accurate numbers and chances for everything, but then I realized its faster and more fun for the players to just have the game moving along. As long as they get to affect their own fates. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:42:11 -0500 From: Mitch Schwartz Subject: Laser Weapons Matti asks: >I always thought using lasers to blind someone was just "an added bonus", >and that the lasers were installed for other, such as range finding, >purposes. Do you mean that the Brits actually install them with the idea >of using them in a defensive manner? Yes. My understanding is that they are wing-mounted port and starboard outside the bridge of frigate & destroyer class vessels. They are (or at least were) pintle-mounted, hand-aimed, and about the size of a medium MG. They have a good field of fire, no recoil, and range to the horizon (a/c help, of course, by being above the horizon :-). OTOH, you need to actually cross the path of not just the aircraft, but the cockpit window to dazzle the pilot, so it's not as useful as it sounds when used against an aircraft making an attack run at 300-600 mph (500-1000 kph)! mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 19:44:58 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Laser Weapons On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Mitch Schwartz wrote: > Matti asks: > > >I always thought using lasers to blind someone was just "an added bonus", > >and that the lasers were installed for other, such as range finding, > >purposes. Do you mean that the Brits actually install them with the idea > >of using them in a defensive manner? > > Yes. My understanding is that they are wing-mounted port and starboard > > OTOH, you need to actually cross the path of not just the aircraft, but the > cockpit window to dazzle the pilot, so it's not as useful as it sounds when > used against an aircraft making an attack run at 300-600 mph (500-1000 kph)! Exactly -- I would've thought the chance to hit is so small, there wouldn't be much use in having dedicated systems for this. That's why I asked. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:25:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > Well, the only light tank I know the army uses is the Sheridan which is > being phased. I saw them in action last week. The 73rd Armor (Airborne) > from Fort Bragg came by to add an armored element for support in the > wargames. The Sheridan is the only air-droppable tank we have in the Army. I > think they come in handy but don't do so well when stuck in the mud and AHs > are flying around! ;) The problem is the Sheridan has never been up to standards. Powerpack and suspension problems, lack of protection, and above all else a 152mm gun that's too much for something that weighs less than 15 tons. The XM8 was supposed to be a solution and it worked using components from the Bradley in addition to having a 105mm autoloaded gun with compartmentalized ammo (for most of its rounds) and pallet loaded ammo resupply system. > The line-dogs here use them for added fire support and forward/fast recon > units. Basically poop-scoot tank busters. But since we're a light infantry > division (the only one in the army i might add), we hump all our gear on our > backs when hummers aren't used. The Bayonet Division and Tropic Lightning (who makes these f%^king diviosn names up?)- the 7th LID and the 25th LID- based in Fort Lewis and Schofield Barracks might disagree with you along with the brigae that remains of the 6th LID in Alaska. It's good that the US army has not forgotten the idea of good foot infantry but the concept of fluid/mobile battle/schwerpunkt requires soldiers to have mobility and firepower in addition to being skilled and able to make decisions on the fly. Then again the old Wehrmacht used horse drawn artillery and most of its infantry division marched on foot- even on the Eastern front. > > I'm not a line-dog, but I'm sure the setup is 3 companies of grunts per > battalion, 1 HQ per battalion and in the HQ is a medical platoon, a scout > platoon, etc... the straight grunt companies have attack/assault platoons, > heavy weapons platoons, whatever. There are 3 battalions (BNs) per brigade > (BDE). Only three companies per batttalion? Don't you think that's cutting it short? Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:32:19 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Actually in Basic Training, the Geneva Convention is outlined with > respect for the rules of war. And it seems odd that we'd follow them if > we never signed it. Senate has never ratified the Geneva or Hague Conventions nor did the President ever sign such document. Granted both "rules of war" came in the aftermath of the first world war or shortly before; Marquis of Queensbury. Technically the American soldiers can torture prisoners, rape, loot, pillage, and generally act like Cossacks, Mongols, Huns, Goths, European mercenaries of the 16th and 17th Centuries, etc.;) Perhaps america shouldn't disappoint its opponents who call us "Yankee Imperialist running dog capitalist Fascist lackeys";) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:44:21 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Excellent point. I think artillery turns off Players and GMs alike > because of the expanded rules they'd actually have to know. > "Um.....OK, how does Indirect fire work again? Uh....what's the damage > mean C:3?" etc. Gah- it does take a long time to have a bunch of PCs going "Gee Billy why don't we just break out the 81 and the binoculars and start popping off Willie Peter." "Good idea- we're carrying too much weight according to the cargo stats.";) > I however love it. As a GM it's devestating if you are lucky enough to > land a few rounds in close proximity to a group of PCs (or NPCs). I > remember one time I actually had a group fire an 81mm mortar at a squad > of "bad guys". Maybe some Twilight players should get access to 120mm mortar tracks, then;) Arty should be (in game terms) A)devastating to those out in the open B)denies the opponents the ability to manuever and communications and C)should above else turn the baddies into ground chuck. For crying out loud- there's move to develop IIR fuzes for drop fire mortars and glide type capabilties so that mortars can hurt tanks. > GMs note- > for USSR trained units with access to Chemical weapons, the "usual" (real > world) > procedure for deployment is with a mix of HE and smoke rounds, so that > the Chemical Agents are not readily visible when compared with the other > battlefield obscurement stuff (smoke, flying debris, etc.), and therefore > (hopefully) not noticed until too late. Granted if NATO/Western units had forward based NBC recon tracks and troops up and running with the grunts and treadheads then there's the inevitable response in kind. Until the end of the Cold War the uS was in high gear trying to provide corps artillery brigades and divisional arty assets with binary type rounds for the 155, 8 inch , and MLRS; GB2- an isopropyl alcohol based liquid and solid organophosphate compound. Historically speaking chemical agents are an irony- nerve agents were developed by Germany by organophosphate research in the US, the Nazis cranked Tabun, Soman, and Sarin after DuPont started cranking out bug killer. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:51:51 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > Oh, I just marched past the guard post on my way to the chow hall and > made the rookies in my command sing ad jingles for dog food... :-) You Finns still have military conscription? The Dutch, the Belgians, Germans and the French all decided to drop military service (Cold War's over- and after two World Wars Euros don't wanna fight and that and let the Americans do the killing;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:02:38 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > EOD? Explosive ordnance disposal. The people whose idea of fun is too dick around with bouncing betties and anti-tank mines and anything else that can blow up. My buddy was in a heavy machingunner in the Marines- since the jarheads have HMGs (Ma Deuces and Mk.19s, 81mm mortars, and Dragons/SMAWs) in their heavy weapons companies every once in a while they get the standard spiel about what to do when a 81 round is stuck in a mortar tube especially in School of Infantry . Any case some EOD/engineer captain was showing the mortar guys some f$%^ked up looking coat hanger and telling them "If a round's stuck in the barrel take this and grab the round out." Marines not being total retards are screaming "SIR YOU GOTTA BE SH%^&TTIN' ME!" "OR F#$%K NO!" and one guy "Si, who's the sorry sonuvbabitch who has to use that." It's just as bad for heavy machinegunners when they use the Mark 19. When that belt fed AGL jams- they gotta clear it and then they gotta get some poor schmuck to take that thing as far away as possible and drop in a "dud" pit somewhere. Supposedly the 40mm round doesn't arm itself until it travels at least 15 meters;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:17:33 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: TW Greenhorn In a message dated 96-11-08 06:38:29 EST, trekker@server.indo.net.id writes: << It would be appreciated if any of you could tell me what books I should possess (rules, sourcebooks, etc) and where I can order the books on-line, since RPG books are as scarce as T-Rex in this city. >> Sorry guy, GDW, TW2k's parent company went out of business around March of this year. The rights to Twilight were purchased by Tantalus Games, so far they haven't done anything with it. Twilight 2000 stuff is really rare these days, I know of a game store near me that sells used stuff, perhaps you should try the same. BTW does anybody know if Tantalus games has a web page? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 96 16:13:34 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Animals in Poland I have never been to Poland. Although, I have read quite a few books recently. I have been to Southern, and Eastern Germany (Berlin region) and am using that as a foundation to work with. The thing I really have no idea about is the wildlife in Poland, and Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia. For Example, Do they have Deer? or Cows, or what? It is hard for me to imagine a place not having Deer, but then again, maybe it is a North American thing. thanks, jono. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 96 16:27:54 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: TW Greenhorn >>It would be appreciated if any of you could tell me what books I should possess (rules, sourcebooks, etc) and where I can order the books on-line, since RPG books are as scarce as T-Rex in this city. Anyway, I'll welcome any helps for me to enjoy the game more and if any PBEM still need a player, I'll be more than happy to enlist. << Rules: - ------ I have a set of zerox's of the V1.0 and V2.2 rules for character generation and basic combat and time & travel info. If you are interested, just e-mail me and I will see about mailing you out some info. PBeM: Currently, we are running 2 PBeM sister games, a NATO team and a PACT team, with a setting of Poland as our backdrop. You are welcome to follow along as a lurker. Check out the webpage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2521 (PACT GAME) http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/3257 (NATO GAME) As a lurker, you reserve a place in the game as characters die and new replacements are introduced, or new teams are started up in either the existing campaign or a new one. Find Books and Info: - -------------------- On the Web I found a bunch of RPG sellers who had some T2000 books for sale. If you are interested in which ones, let me know and I will check my archives. adios from Sunny, Warm, Santa Anna blowing, San Diego! jono. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 96 16:27:54 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: TW Greenhorn >>It would be appreciated if any of you could tell me what books I should possess (rules, sourcebooks, etc) and where I can order the books on-line, since RPG books are as scarce as T-Rex in this city. Anyway, I'll welcome any helps for me to enjoy the game more and if any PBEM still need a player, I'll be more than happy to enlist. << Rules: - ------ I have a set of zerox's of the V1.0 and V2.2 rules for character generation and basic combat and time & travel info. If you are interested, just e-mail me and I will see about mailing you out some info. PBeM: Currently, we are running 2 PBeM sister games, a NATO team and a PACT team, with a setting of Poland as our backdrop. You are welcome to follow along as a lurker. Check out the webpage: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/2521 (PACT GAME) http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/3257 (NATO GAME) As a lurker, you reserve a place in the game as characters die and new replacements are introduced, or new teams are started up in either the existing campaign or a new one. Find Books and Info: - -------------------- On the Web I found a bunch of RPG sellers who had some T2000 books for sale. If you are interested in which ones, let me know and I will check my archives. adios from Sunny, Warm, Santa Anna blowing, San Diego! jono. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:47:34 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Animals in Poland On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Jon Anderson wrote: > I have never been to Poland. Although, I have read > quite a few books recently. I have been to Southern, > and Eastern Germany (Berlin region) and am using that > as a foundation to work with. The thing I really have > no idea about is the wildlife in Poland, > and Eastern Germany, Czechoslovakia. Check the Fodor's travel guides and the CIA and state Department web sites. I have a Polish friend who can teach me all the comment Polish slang and cuss words- in case a Twilight PC ever wants to know what's the most insulting thing to say;) > For Example, Do they have Deer? or Cows, or what? It > is hard for me to imagine a place not having Deer, but > then again, maybe it is a North American thing. They have deer. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 23:25:55 +0000 From: Mark Withers Subject: Re: Mass Combat Systems? Matti Aistrich wrote: > > On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > > > What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than > > platoon size (30 plus troops). [munch] > I used to want to have accurate numbers and chances for everything, but > then I realized its faster and more fun for the players to just have the > game moving along. As long as they get to affect their own fates. I like to have the players play out the parts of a few squads on BOTH sides, and base the success on that. Sure, it takes more time, but in the backwoods where you've got to find a secluded room so the local misguided clergy don't burn you at the stake for being demon worshippers and therefore players are as scarce as a business suit it works pretty well. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Mark Withers geofochten@geocities.com | | alias: Geoffrey Ochten *withers@clarityconnect.com | | alias: Maj. Masaki Rei *=emergency address only! | - ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 03:06:04 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: TW Greenhorn In a message dated 96-11-08 19:33:03 EST, jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU writes: << On the Web I found a bunch of RPG sellers who had some T2000 books for sale. If you are interested in which ones, let me know and I will check my archives. >> hey jon how about posting the web addresses for the whole mailing list. I'm sure we all would be interested. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Nov 96 09:19:45 PST From: jono@baltica.UCSD.EDU (Jon Anderson) Subject: Re: TW Greenhorn >>hey jon how about posting the web addresses for the whole mailing list. I'm sure we all would be interested.<< I will look the addresses up in my archives and get back to everyone on them. jono. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 00:35:38 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) > The Bayonet Division and Tropic Lightning (who makes these f%^king >diviosn names up?)- the 7th LID and the 25th LID- based in Fort Lewis and >Schofield Barracks might disagree with you along with the brigae that >remains of the 6th LID in Alaska. We used to call the 25th ID 'Electric Strawberry' because of the patch. The guy with the helmet (Harris) on the cover of the 2nd edition TW2K has a 7th ID patch on his left shoulder shoulder. BTW, you can differentiate a soldier who has been in combat because he/she will have a patch on the right shoulder showing which unit they were in when they were in combat. In combat doesn't necessarily mean shooting at people, but being in a unit that took fire, etc... so cooks, tent repairers, band members, etc... could have them if they weren't involved in an actual fire fight. The 7th ID out of Fort Ord, CA has been defunct for some time now (draw down unit) but the 25th is alive and kicking. Most US divisions consist of 3 brigades, like here at Drum, we have 2 brigades and one stationed in Alaska, and we have a reserve (4th) brigade we draw from in case the full-time brigades get low on troops. > It's good that the US army has not forgotten the idea of good foot >infantry but the concept of fluid/mobile battle/schwerpunkt requires >soldiers to have mobility and firepower in addition to being skilled and >able to make decisions on the fly. Then again the old Wehrmacht used >horse drawn artillery and most of its infantry division marched on foot- >even on the Eastern front. Roadmarching is an important 'skill' here. The line units do a 12 mile biannually and probably as 6 mile quarterly and maybe a big hunkin 25 miler once a year. Inbetwen those times, individual commanders may take their troops on more 'nature walks.' Support units like the one I'm in (HHC 10th Mountain Division, Division HQ), we do a 6 miler every 6 months, but somehow I happened to do 4 so far! =P Somehow my name wasn't on the roster for completeing my marches... I was framed I tellz ya! =) Anyways, 6 miles may not seem like a lot, but the Army standard is to complete the march in under 90 minutes with weapons (my sweet-16) and 30-40 lbs. of gear. One time I tried it with my FULL aid bag (never again!) and I hauled about 80 lbs. of crap (20 lbs. of med, 40 lbs. of ruck, 20 lbs. of webgear and weapons...) > Only three companies per batttalion? Don't you think that's >cutting it short? Well, 3 companies of infantry types, then a HQ company which will have several platoon elements and support personnel. All in all, you're talking about 500 to 600 troops per battalion. Then there are 3 of those battalions in a brigade (~1500 troops at the least). We have 2 here at Drum, so about 3000 combat troops with about 7000 supporting personnel. And when I say supporting, I mean gun-bunnies, fly-boys, ADA, MPs, etc... Our division here at Drum is about 10,000 troops but with our reserve brigade and unit in Alaska, we could go up to 13,000 plus. It may seem short, but the US Army is drawing down. I think there's about 495,000 active duty personnel (about 2 soldiers per 1000 civillians) stationed worldwide and in the US. We ain't as big as we used to be; we're only down to 10 divisions... John John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:07:31 -0700 From: US DataCom Subject: Hello? Anyone out there? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:24:06 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > We used to call the 25th ID 'Electric Strawberry' because of the patch. > The guy with the helmet (Harris) on the cover of the 2nd edition TW2K has a > 7th ID patch on his left shoulder shoulder. BTW, you can differentiate a > soldier who has been in combat because he/she will have a patch on the right > shoulder showing which unit they were in when they were in combat. In > combat doesn't necessarily mean shooting at people, but being in a unit that > took fire, etc... so cooks, tent repairers, band members, etc... could have > them if they weren't involved in an actual fire fight. So how do you get the CIB? > Roadmarching is an important 'skill' here. The line units do a 12 mile > biannually and probably as 6 mile quarterly and maybe a big hunkin 25 miler > once a year. Inbetwen those times, individual commanders may take their > troops on more 'nature walks.' Best way to train light infantry- make 'em walk;). Problem if you walk to work (work being a situatiopn where people are trying to their best to terminate one's life processes) one tends to be more "vulnerable " to say the least. Don't feel to bad- Marines have reinstituted the famed 100 mile humps- from Camp Pendleton to Orange County suffice to say jarheads in that area of the world have been clearing out the PXs of Gatorade, foot powder, moleskin, and extra socks (including that cool Gore Tex stuff they have in sporting goods places) Maybe the light motorized or high technology divisions weren't such a bad idea. More LAVs mean greater logistical headaches but in the Third World having heavy Hummers, more choppers, light tanks, and LAV25s mean greater mobility and firepower. Granted there's always airlift and sealift problems. Rapid deployment's so supposed to mean something. So the 7th LID's gone. And i know the 6th LID got axed. I think the 25th LID has two brigades in Hawaii and one in Fort Lewis. Anybody if the 9th ID a light unit or a heavy unit? Or if they're still around. > Well, 3 companies of infantry types, then a HQ company which will have > several platoon elements and support personnel. All in all, you're talking > about 500 to 600 troops per battalion. Then there are 3 of those battalions > in a brigade (~1500 troops at the least). We have 2 here at Drum, so about > 3000 combat troops with about 7000 supporting personnel. And when I say > supporting, I mean gun-bunnies, fly-boys, ADA, MPs, etc... Our division here > at Drum is about 10,000 troops but with our reserve brigade and unit in > Alaska, we could go up to 13,000 plus. Ergggg- a couple years ago it was four companies (or even four and a wepons company) per battalion and four battalions per brigade. Support elements were divisional based even if in terms of tube arty and air support light divisions may have much to be desired. Frederick the Great once said God's on the side of the biggest battalions. Technology's good but you must have the numbers necesary to utlize it. And often technology isn't enough. Larger numbers of grunts make it easier to concentrate firepower (suppsosedly). Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 20:03:39 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) > So how do you get the CIB? Only two types of troops can get Combat Badges. One group are infantry types (11Bs, 11Cs, etc...) and basically what the CIB (Combat Infantry Badge) is, is a rifle (Kentucky long rifle?) surrounded by a wreath. The grunts are rewarded this as a sign that they have been in actual combat (fired on, fire-fight, under some type of hostile situation, etc...), along with the unit patch on the right shoulder. Infantrymen can also get the EIB (Expert Infantryman Badge) which basically is the rifle without a wreath. The badge signifies a grunt that excells in the more infantry type skills (shooting, grenade tossing, land nav, and of course road marching, to name but a few skills they must excell in). The other type of troop are medical personnel (91Bs, 91Cs, etc...). For being in combat they receive the CMB (Combat Medic badge) which basically is a stretcher surrounded by a wreath. They receive this along with the unit patch on their right shoulder. They also have a course like the EIB, called the EFMB (Expert Field Medic Badge) which is open to all medical personnel. Basically it's a week of train up, followed by a week of testing on land nav, medical skills, evac, combat soldier tasks, and of course, a road march, to name but a few skills tested. Other types of troops, as far as I know have no such type of tests of MOS skills or badges of recognition for being in combat. Regardless, an individual with a patch signifies combat duty, regardless of them having an CIB or CMB and they always garner my respect (expect for my SGT, she's a pushover! j/k) =) [stuff about road marching] We just had a road march last week and I had people comein for blisters. Nasty ones at that. There are all sorts of tricks to save your feet. Moleskin is a good start. I always use ankle high panty hose. Acts as a second skin. In as much as game turns, knowing about these little tricks may increase the endurance-marching factor of troops. I'm not sure by how much, but a well equipped, comfortable troop I'm sure always does better. > Ergggg- a couple years ago it was four companies (or even four and >a wepons company) per battalion and four battalions per brigade. Support >elements were divisional based even if in terms of tube arty and air >support light divisions may have much to be desired. Welcome to the draw down... 495,000 and shrinking. What gets me is that recruiters still have the same quotas! =) John John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re:Snipers >>I understand the U.S. Army Rangers have specialized snipers too.<< Well I'm sure they do, since they are technically 11B--Infantry. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Combat recognition John Said: >>Other types of troops, as far as I know have no such type of tests of MOS skills or badges of recognition for being in combat.<< I know MPs don't. Other than an 82nd patch on my right shoulder, A pat on the back, and an order (by civilian agencies alike) that I was not to give blood since I was in the Persian Gulf, but there is nothing wrong with you....crap, that's it. But rumour has it, some people came home from there with some nice goodies. I gave up my AK-47, RPG-7, and russian-type frags before I came home.......;) Although with Airborne troops (now limited to the 82nd, Rangers, SF, etc.) If you drop into a "hostile" zone via parachute, you earn a gold star in a circle above/attached to your jump wings. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: CIB >>So how do you get the CIB? << The CIB, or Combat Infantryman's Badge is earned (not given or won) by being an Infantryman (11B MOS) serving in an Infantry Unit.......82nd, 101st, 10th, etc., during a time of (here's where it get's tricky) crisis. which basically implys combat.] Direct fire (or the exposure to doesn't matter here)... One of my friends was in the 24th ID in Desert Shield/storm in a bradley, earned one strictly because of his 11B MOS. Had my MOS been 11B instead of 95B, I too would have one........................... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>(Cold War's over- and after two World Wars Euros don't wanna fight and that and let the Americans do the killing;)<< Please be careful in speaking for other people.......................................... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>Only three companies per batttalion? Don't you think that's cutting it short? << That's probably average....... Minimums are as follows; 2 men to make up a squad 2 Squads to make up a Platoon 2 Platoons to make up a company 2 Companies to make up a Battalion 2 BTTNs to make up a a Brigade 2 BDEs to make up a Division 2 Division to make up a Corps 2 Corps to make up a an Army................. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:34:31 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Animals in Poland Jono, >>I have never been to Poland.<<[SNIP] For some real entertainment look in Urban Geurilla about what happned to the animals at fun places like Bush Gardens after Thanx day '97.......... It's pretty interesting, Unlike that stupid show, 2nd Noah...................................... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:31:55 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: GDW books On Fri, 8 Nov 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > Sorry guy, GDW, TW2k's parent company went out of business around March of > this year. The rights to Twilight were purchased by Tantalus Games, so far > they haven't done anything with it. Twilight 2000 stuff is really rare these > days, I know of a game store near me that sells used stuff, perhaps you > should try the same. OK everybody: Most of the stuff GDW put out is still available in Finland. Some books even in relatively large quantities. I'm ready, willing and able to get the books and mail them to you guys. The problem is the price. The books cost about double when compared to what they cost in the States, plus of course there is the cost of mailing them BACK to the U.S.A., which will probably add some US$ 3 per campaign book (the thin ones!) or so. But if someone wants some specific book really bad, let me know and I'll find out how much it would cost. Buying more books this way would, however, end up costing you American guys almost as much as I have paid for my Twilight:2000 collection! :-) - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:44:52 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Conscription On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > You Finns still have military conscription? The Dutch, the > Belgians, Germans and the French all decided to drop military service > (Cold War's over- and after two World Wars Euros don't wanna fight and > that and let the Americans do the killing;) Sure, we still do 8 - 11 months duty plus reserve training after that. Just starting allowing women into the Armed Forces last year, though. The Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans and the French do not have a small population with over 1000 kilometers of border with the Bear. 'Nuff said. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:22:25 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Conscription In a message dated 96-11-11 09:45:51 EST, aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi writes: << Sure, we still do 8 - 11 months duty plus reserve training after that. Just starting allowing women into the Armed Forces last year, though. The Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans and the French do not have a small population with over 1000 kilometers of border with the Bear. 'Nuff said. >> Hey Matti, What's the deal with the M71, Twilight 2000 rules list it as semiautomatic. Is this true? Also what kind of equipment (tanks, APCs, arty, etc.) does the Finnish Army use? Do they build their own or buy from outside sources. I know the Soviet Vehicle Guide says that the Finnish Army bought a bunch of Soviet BTR's and Romanian M-81 tanks. Thanks MATTI ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:19:12 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Conscription On Mon, 11 Nov 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > > Sure, we still do 8 - 11 months duty plus reserve training after that. > Just starting allowing women into the Armed Forces last year, though. > > The Dutch, the Belgians, the Germans and the French do not have a small > population with over 1000 kilometers of border with the Bear. 'Nuff said. > I thought now that the Iron Curtain fell- Europe was supposed to be one big happy family;). Of course you Finns always were a stubborn bunch;). BTW why did your Ministry of Defense go for Soviet/Russian hardware? Your tanks- T72s or T55s of one mod or another and IFVs- BMP1s (APCs being wheeled Sisus- what the Hell's a Sisu?). Only within the last three or four years has the Finnish Air Force decided F/A-18C/D Hornets were a good choice to replace the MiGs in service. (Mickey-Dee- aka McDonnell Douglas is most stoked since not only they've managed to sell the Hornets to the Aussies, Canucks, Spain, Kuwait but even the Swiss) Was it the aftermath of the Second World War (Finland I recall had the bad taste to ally itself of one A. Hitler; the enemy of thy enemy is they friend)? The strict neutrality to avoid antagonizing the Soviets? Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:29:37 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Conscription On Mon, 11 Nov 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > What's the deal with the M71, Twilight 2000 rules list it as semiautomatic. > Is this true? Actually Orrin since I'm a gun nut the Finnish armed forces use two types of AK variants the Valmet M62 and the M76. Both are chambered (at least for their rifles) in classic 7.62mmx39mm M43 Soviet. Gas operated closed bolt with a thirty round "banana" AK mag. Sights are mounted on the stamped steel upper eceiver- and in the case of the M76 rifle the lower reciever's also made of sheet type metal. AK type selector on the right side along with the bolt handle. From what I've heard there are some problems with both Galils and valmets in retaining a zero because the amount of vibration and fit of the upper reciever. In terms of human engineering and still overall accuracy the Valmets still come ahead of the AKs and both the M62 and M76 should be able to punch out three to four MOA. Before the weenie assault rifle ban Valmet tried marketing a 5.56mm bullpup weapon for the American audience but with only minor sales. That's the gun seen in the Twilight book. Currently there might be move on part of the Finns to drop money for a 5.56mm NATO type assault rifle seeing how the Swedes adopted a locally produced FNC (known as the AK5) and the Norweigans are going for Dieamco C7/C7A1 M16s (initial batches going to Norwegian PKF troops in the Balkans) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #33 ************************************