twilight2000-digest Friday, November 8 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 032 The following topics are covered in this digest: Re: Firearm Debate(s) Medical MOSs Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Military Realism Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) US Army Snipers Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: Firearm Debate(s) TW Greenhorn Re: Firearm Debate(s) Laser Weapons Re: Laser Weapons Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: MPs Re: US Army Snipers Re: cop dogs Re: MPs again Re: Mass Combat Systems? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:48:20 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) > Medical specialist? What you worked in a hospital? Is there any >MOS differences between medics assigned to platoons and companies than >ambulance drivers and those who work in hospitals? > That and what's the scoop on the Geneva Convention on arming >medics? I've heard that's supposed to be a nughty naughty but the US never >signed the Geneva Convention- thus we do not have to adhere to the "rules >of war";). Hmmm... Medical specialist is a fancy term for 'combat medic.' Actually it's the complete military term for my MOS, 91B, pronounced 91bravo. Then we have 91C (charlies) who are LPNs and 91D (deltas) who are dental techs, etc... If there is a real interest, I have Army Pam 351-4. U.S. Army Formal Schools Catalog which lists the MOSs used by the Army as well as a description of that MOS... I don't have the Army Reg for MOSs though, anyways, here's what it says fro 91B10, Medical Specialist, 10 weeks Academey of Health Sciences (which is at Fort Sam Houston, Texas, 'Fort Sham' for you vets...) Provides basic foundation in casualty assessment, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, control of bleeding, immobilization of orthopedic injuries, anatomy and physiology, invasive skills, administration of immunizations, drawing blood samples, initiating intravenous therapy, fundamental nursing care, medical care in field setting and under nuclear, chemical, and biological contamination conditions. Other medical emergency situations are addressed and the National Registry Exam for Emergency Medical Technician certification is taken during the course. Performs emergency medical treatment and routine patient care duties in military hospitals, field units, dispensaries, clinics, and other medical treatment facilities. Editors note: I've done pretty much all of the above in non-combat situations. Haven't had the pleasure (unpleasure) of sticking someone with bullets whizzing over my head. As far as sticking people with a MOPP suit on, it's a BITCH! And maybe half the medics you meet are EMT's (like me). Medics are assigned to either combat units (line units eg: infantry, artillery, or mechanized) or to support units (forward or main support battalions) which follow the combat units. The combat unit medics are in the shit when it happens and basically just stabilize the patient, the FSB or MSB medics re-stabilize and triage the patients before sending them to a MASH/CASH. Sometimes the patients get lucky and are directed to a FST (Forward Surgical Team, 1 surgeon, 2 NCOs and 4 medics) that can operated and do the do. Then there are the medic pogues like me who are stationed WAY in the rear at hospitals or in my case with Division Headquarters... Somone has to give the general his Motrin... ;) I basically drive the Division Surgeon around and guard him. He's an ex-SF/surgeon/Vietnam vet/bad-ass, so he'd probably be protecting me! I could go into more depth, but it'd probably bore y'all... John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:05:17 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Medical MOSs Here is a listing of medical MOS along with any ASI (additional skill identifiers) we use to categorize enlisted medical personnel. Warrant Officers and officers have there own MOS coding... MOS ASI Title - --- --- ----- 91B10 Medical Specialist 91B10 N1 Orthopedic Specialist 91B10 N3 Occupational Therapy Specialist 91B10 N4 Health Phsycics Specialist 91B10 N9 Physical Therapy Specialist 91B10 P2 Ear, Nose, and Throat Specialist (ENT) 91B10 P3 Eye Specialist 91B10 Y6 Cardiovascular Specialist 91C20 Practical Nurse 91D10 Operating Room Specialist 91E10 Dental Specialist 91E10 F1 Dental Laboratory Procedures (Advanced) 91E10 N5 Dental Laboratory Specialist 91E10 X2 Preventive Dentistry Specialist 91F10 Psychiatric Specialist 91G10 Behavioral Science Specialist 91K10 Medical Laboratory Specialist 91P10 Radiology Specialist 91Q10 Pharmacy Specialist 91R10 Veterinary Food Inspection Specialist (Basic) 91S10 Preventive Medicine Specialist 91T10 Animal Care Specialist 91V10 Respiratory Specialist 71G10 Patient Administration Specialist 76J10 Medical Supply Specialist John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:17:49 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) > Well there's M1114 Heavy Hummers if that's what you mean? Kevalr >or Spectra reinforced body panels and polycarbonate windshields and >windows (and real doors to boot;) that give a ballistic protection out to >.308 and even 155mm airbursts some 15 meters away and deck protection >against smaller anti-tank mines. Maybe that's what they used. They are definately a lot more solid than what I drive around. I'm pretty sure they could stop small arm fire if hit at the 'right angle.' > It's a pity that nobody took up the LAV25 as recon and fighting >vehicle for cav units assigned to light divisions and I wonder if the >Army's still regretting the XM8 decision. And honest to goodness light >tank that actually has more protection than a M60A3. But that's another >story. Well, the only light tank I know the army uses is the Sheridan which is being phased. I saw them in action last week. The 73rd Armor (Airborne) from Fort Bragg came by to add an armored element for support in the wargames. The Sheridan is the only air-droppable tank we have in the Army. I think they come in handy but don't do so well when stuck in the mud and AHs are flying around! ;) > Out of curiosity I know .50 cal and TOW armed Hummers are assigned >to battalion weapons' companies in the Marines but what about the >doggies;)? (as the old term goes) Do light infantry battalions have armed >Hummers as a forward mobile anti-tank and fire support role (doubling as >a forward recon element). Or do light infantry grunts just make do with >more Dragons and 81mm mortars? The line-dogs here use them for added fire support and forward/fast recon units. Basically poop-scoot tank busters. But since we're a light infantry division (the only one in the army i might add), we hump all our gear on our backs when hummers aren't used. I'm not a line-dog, but I'm sure the setup is 3 companies of grunts per battalion, 1 HQ per battalion and in the HQ is a medical platoon, a scout platoon, etc... the straight grunt companies have attack/assault platoons, heavy weapons platoons, whatever. There are 3 battalions (BNs) per brigade (BDE). >> Anybody have any ideas? > Anybody know if 5 tons or deuce and halfs are actually assigned to >light infantry battalions or do they just go to war the old fashioned way >and hump it? (every so often trying to bum a ride from a chopper) They go to war too, but usually have some 50 cal or MK40 grenade launcher strapped to it but they're usually in some support role and not on the front lines unless dropping off supplies or picking up wounded, etc... > Beats walking from what I've heard;) It sure does... ;) John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:48:32 -0500 From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Subject: Re: Military Realism In a message dated 96-11-07 04:04:05 EST, kappaabz@juno.com writes: << Uh oh.............here goes............................ As a combat military service veteran, I feel that you do not need to be ex-military to enjoy twilight or play it in a realistic manner, and you certainly don't need to be ex-combat. Twilight 2000 is a role-playing game using a war and mainly military characters as a backdrop. Role-playing games are just that.....playing a role. It isn't about the fact that I as an actor (or player) have no clue about what is going to happen the first time I pull the trigger of my imaginary gun.......>> As a non veteran GM, I agree. If I wanted a truly realistic simulation of the armed forces, I would go and enlist. With my limited knowledge, I try and provide a realistic backdrop. When I have problems with military procedure and routine, I defer to higher authority, I ask the veterans in my game (I have 2 retired military, 1 active duty and 1 National Guard). They've been understanding about my lack of knowledge and more than helpful with my questions. Whether they enjoy me asking them about day to day procedure and what not is another issue tho :) The only thing I can't stand is armchair generals.....zzzzzz Of which this game seems to attract more than its fair share. They're the ones that say you can't do this, you can't do that, thats not the way the U.S. Army would do it, etc, etc, etc. I remind them of the setting of the game: limited nuclear war, breakdown of society, (which creates a plausible explanation why one characters is Russian in a group of NATO soldiers) etc. And lastly I also remind them that this is only a GAME. I think Frank Chadwick said it best "Twilight 2000 is not meant to be a serious projection of future trends; it is escapist entertainment. But for the entertainment to be complete, players (or viewers of movies and TV) have to be able to engage in ' willingful suspension of disbelief '" (pg. 276, Designer's notes, version 2.2) Well that's my $.02 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>That and what's the scoop on the Geneva Convention on arming medics? I've heard that's supposed to be a nughty naughty but the US never signed the Geneva Convention- thus we do not have to adhere to the "rules of war"<< Actually in Basic Training, the Geneva Convention is outlined with respect for the rules of war. And it seems odd that we'd follow them if we never signed it. You arn't supposed to use the M2HB or White Phosphorous on enemy personnel, only equipment, like aircraft, vehicles, .......web gear........dog tags.....he he he he ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>I'm not a line-dog, but I'm sure the setup is 3 companies of grunts per battalion, 1 HQ per battalion and in the HQ is a medical platoon, a scout platoon, etc... the straight grunt companies have attack/assault platoons, heavy weapons platoons, whatever. There are 3 battalions (BNs) per brigade (BDE).<< At divisional level there is 1 Company of MPs, and at Corps level, too. With 4 line platoons and one support/HQ platoon. Usually the Line platoons are handed out to the various Brigades. 3 Infantry BDEs+ HHC (HQ + Support) BDE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>My dad was a MP in Korea and I plan on being one when I can join<< Don't do it! Uncle Sam will screw you in the rump and not have the common descency of giving you a reach around................................................... But if you gotta do it, you gotta do it. Give me a call before some recruiter screws you too......because they will. MPs do have vehicles, though, so It beats walking. Incedently, the 82nd Airborne wasn't allowed to drop into Iraq, during that scuffle a few years back, because they got the glory during panama, so the 101st got to do it ---"dope on a rope, anyone?", so most of the 82nd went into Iraq on Trucks, Hummers, buses, anything they could find to get the ground pounders in there.................................... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>I agree, MPs are definately not wimps. By buddy was an MP in Korea, and loved it so much he decided to do his tour there twice! Not only did he have to watch out for the locals, but the troops there too. On several occasions he'd have to go down range and patrol the ville (Camp Casey or Yongson, I don't know... the Beast of the East) and make sure the grunts were good to go and not causing too much of a ruckus. << Bar Fights are really funny. No matter who's beating the hell out of each other, as soon as we show up, it's now time to beat the hell out of the MPs................. If it was a big disturbance, we'd wait for backup (and pray there was a dog handler on duty at the time) I really love those dogs. Some big Rambo type gets real meek with a german shepard's teeth are in position to rip his balls off.......... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>BTW, the HMMWV pictured in the TW2K vs. 2.1 looks like the kind used by the MPs and grunts. It's lightly armored against very small rounds and shrapnel, but a good 60 could light one up and a 50 cal would rip it up. When I was in the field the other week, the grunts use TOWs on theirs and 60s, the MPs had 60s. I think the turrets have some sort of electronic swivel mount for the 60s. Anybody have any ideas?<< Well, you know I do. The turret wasn't electronically controlled, it was just very smooth (except when sand gets in it) which rotates in the direction the gunner wants by a handle that locks it into place once the MP stops it from turning. That coupled with the Vehicle mounts for the MGs made it very agile................ There was talk a while ago that we'd be getting Mark 19's for the teams............ Never happened, and not really needed for the role that we provide..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>Well there's M1114 Heavy Hummers if that's what you mean? Kevalr or Spectra reinforced body panels and polycarbonate windshields and windows (and real doors to boot;) that give a ballistic protection out to .308 and even 155mm airbursts some 15 meters away and deck protection against smaller anti-tank mines.<< Actually the first time I heard of the heavy Hummer was in the East Euro Sourcebook. Back in 1988, I was told be my instructors (on the M998) that the side panels and doors were made with a kevlar composite, and the glass was bullet resistant. They aren't............... >>It's a pity that nobody took up the LAV25 as recon and fighting vehicle for cav units assigned to light divisions and I wonder if the Army's still regretting the XM8 decision.<< I actually saw LAV-25's in some 82nd Unit, I dunno which, they had about 10 I think. I know the 82nd's Armored Unit uses Sheridans, though. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: US Army Snipers >>Some of the weapons though are out of date. The M21 has largely been replaced by the bolt action M24. speaking of which how does the US Army uses snipers? Do they actually have trained snipers to begin with or countersnipers/marksmen (like the Soviet, Israelis, and the French who issue scoped rifles down to a company/platoon level)?<< The army has snipers (and the sniper school at Ft Benning, GA) usually issued to Infantry Units, with a handful of snipers in a given MP Brigade (like 3 or 4). I continually put in for Sniper school, and was denied......constantly. I did, however talk with a few in Saudi (Who had M21's, and the Scope base-the scopes were kept in their quarters at that point). They were also rare in the Infantry kept at HQ level (Battalion type). The school is (or was) 4 weeks long where the first 2 you relearn how to fire, use scopes, adjust for wind, etc. And the other two, while still on the ranges every day, you hone your observation and stealth skills. Rumor has it that they take a sergeant's Rank (the little Black chevrons) that odorn the collar and stick them in a tree in the woods, and you go find it.......................................................... That's just what the snipers told me, though, so my info is only 2nd hand. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request >> GDW doesn't appreciate how dangerous arty really is- hence in my experience as a player most PCs just pack small arms, maybe badass wheels, but nothing in the way of a heavy gun. At least a puny 60mm mortar or even a bigger 81<< Excellent point. I think artillery turns off Players and GMs alike because of the expanded rules they'd actually have to know. "Um.....OK, how does Indirect fire work again? Uh....what's the damage mean C:3?" etc. Since society today is instant gratification oriented, and PCs get results quickly with standard small arms fire, why bother with the heavy stuff. I however love it. As a GM it's devestating if you are lucky enough to land a few rounds in close proximity to a group of PCs (or NPCs). I remember one time I actually had a group fire an 81mm mortar at a squad of "bad guys". They were set up 10 meters away from and 360 degrees around their APC. The PCs FO was pretty good, and the first round was short, the Bad guys started scrambling for the APC, then the 2nd round hit. A few took damage from shrapnel, most from concussion......... Then initiatives dropped, people began becoming stunned, and unable to react. The ones whio were lucky enough to make it inside the APC Soon were braving the Arty barrage to get wounded and unconscious comrades who were still taking damage from the mortar shells. GMs note- for USSR trained units with access to Chemical weapons, the "usual" (real world) procedure for deployment is with a mix of HE and smoke rounds, so that the Chemical Agents are not readily visible when compared with the other battlefield obscurement stuff (smoke, flying debris, etc.), and therefore (hopefully) not noticed until too late. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 01:56:53 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>> What are the duties of a divisional MP company? Directing >traffice? Providing rear area security? Making grunts salute and shine >their boots at the end of very big stick;)?<< It kinda depends on what aspect you're asking about. In a garrison environment, They are tasked with Law Enforcement, and/or sensitive materials security primarily. Law Enforcement covers everything from shoplifting on Post. to Domestic Disturbances (the most common), to stolen arms, to drugs to traffic tickets. Directing trafic? yes. when it is needed. Making grunts salute? well, that's quite odd............If the term grunt means Infantry enlisted and not to bright, then no. they have been trained when to and to not salute. shine their boots? It depends. I never MADE anyone shine their boots. All it ususally takes is a simple look, or one or two words. MPs as a whole aren't control freaks (some are though). In times of war, or in live operations, however........ Providing rear area security? Yes as well as providing front area security. For most of the Desert Shield phase, my platoon got tasked with security for the 82nd's aviation Battalion......... There were roving Patrols outside the fence line, Front gate duty and vehicle inspections (every Non military vehicle entering the compound was stopped and searched, for explosives mainly), and once again, law enforcement. Saudi Arabia was extremely boring, and there were few ways to allow the soldiers to relieve the stress. Not like Vietnam with hookers and beer and pot, none of that, although one 82nd Officer (female) was arrested for prostitution. (she was making a fortune charging for sex). we were even given a radar gun when we got over there and were told to go out on the highways and clock US vehicles, and write them tickets if they were speeding............ Needless, to say, my radar gun stayed packed in it's container. No way was I going to give a guy a ticket, who just might have to bail my ass outa some foxhole in the near future...... we also provided security (a few days before the Air war started) for this engineer company who was building a road going north. We were real close the the Iraqi border at that point, and one night I was lucky enough to swipe the GPS hand unit from the Lt, and compared what it said with the map I had......... when I told my team leader that it said we were a few clicks across the iraqi border, his response was, "Shut up, no we're not. That thing's not working properly." Needless to say, I was very alert after that. Then there's EPW (enemy Prisoner of war) duties.................... MP companies (for the most part) are divided into 2 types Combat Support, and EPW. EPW units set up prisons, temporary and permanent, for EPWs. >>One of my favorite cadences back at airborne school was:<< >>"You can't spell WIMP without the MP!"<< Mine was "I want to be a paramedic, snort that funky anesthetic" >>What I've seen of the MP units here at Fort Drum (the 10th and 511th MP companies) are rear guard duties when we deploy. They ensure that that people like me (staff weenies) who are 'in the rear with the gear' are safe from baddies (eg. enemy commandoes, civilians, etc...) as well as monitor POW centers. While in garrison, they are (correct me if I'm wrong) federal police officers and give tickets, answer domestic calls, etc... Around here, they also provide help to local law enforcement as we also have an anti-terrorist team and EOD squad here.<< Some MP specialties (EOD, Dog Handlers, Snipers-SWAT) do see service with US Customs, DEA, and other federal agencies from time to time. I think it's a great way to use the US tax dollar. IMHO >>The MPs deploy just as much (if not more than) other units, especially during peacetime. They're far from wimps... ;) BTW, there are several MPs on the list, I'm sure they can shed more light on this subject.<< MPs do deploy for more missions, and generally remain in place long after the ground pounders have gone, leaving them to deal with the locals............ The 3 man MP Team is usually self sufficient, usually carrying enough food, & water to sustain them for a few days. Ammo is usually quite high as well. Each team has a HMMV, an M60, and an M203, amd of course a vehicle radio. In Desert Storm we also had 3 AT4's. For ammo I had a little over 7,000 rounds for the M60. The majority of the Hmmv was taken up with ammo crates. MP teams are frequently put out on a point (more often than not at an intersection of two MSRs[Main Supply Route, or road]) and left there for a few days. Partly to direct traffic, PArtly to observe traffic, but mainly to make sure that bad guys don't go unnoticed. Desert Storm was weird because the VXIII Airborne Corps did a huge sweep, first north, then northeast, covering hundreds of miles. And it went fast! what happened to us (my Platoon) next was that whole area had to be secured. The majority of vehicles used the paved highways of Iraq, so off the highway you could go for miles and miles of nothing, then run into hundreds of bunkers. They had to be secured. No telling if some Iraqi was hiding in there, not hearing his orders via radio (most radio commo was wiped out in the month before ground operations) to cease fire. So while being "rear area" it was really "front Area". And the ground war lasted longer than the 100 hours the press would have you believe........Our orders were to cease hostile operations after 100 hours, DEFENSIVE operations were strictly a green light. And then again, there's nothing like waking up in the morning to hear your driver shouting at someone, only to find out it's a couple of Iraqi's who walked up on your position with the hopes of surrendering (But mainly to get food)........... Yet I bable............................................................................................ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:33:23 -0700 From: trekker@server.indo.net.id (Budi Primawan) Subject: TW Greenhorn Greetings: I'm a newcomer at the universe of this exciting RPG (knew about it last month) and am currently a lurker in a Shadow Company PBEM. It would be appreciated if any of you could tell me what books I should possess (rules, sourcebooks, etc) and where I can order the books on-line, since RPG books are as scarce as T-Rex in this city. Anyway, I'll welcome any helps for me to enjoy the game more and if any PBEM still need a player, I'll be more than happy to enlist. FYI, I'm not a military member, but want to and have read a good deal of books about war and military (especially about Marines and Navy). TIA. - ---- Budi Primawan trekker@server.indo.net.id http://www.starbase21.com/Trekkers_Page When you go home Tell them of us, and say: For your tomorrow, We gave our today. (from the memorial for the Battle of Kohima, 1944) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:26:52 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) At 04:19 AM 11/8/96 EDT, you wrote: > >>>"You can't spell WIMP without the MP!"<< > >Mine was "I want to be a paramedic, snort that funky anesthetic" Yeah, I like that one too! =) John John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:13:55 -0500 From: Mitch Schwartz Subject: Laser Weapons Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:17:50, Rob Beck wrote: (about the .40 round) >I beg your pardon? I own a Glock 23, and I don't think I'd be classified as >a yuppie. >... Yuppie, no. Sensible, yes. Curiously enough, this is EXACTLY the same line of defense Yuppies use about their clothing choices, too :-) :-) (too good to pass up) So, um, do you, like, drive a Volvo? :-) (for that matter, Volvos are sensible cars, too.) >------------------------------ About Mass Combat: >John wrote: > >>>What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than >platoon size (30 plus troops).<< Depends on why you want the Mass Combat: o If it is a story element for your campaign, map out what you want to happen. As your PCs wander through the battle, they may encounter various elements of the enemy, and either fight and win, fight and die, or decide to pull back. (BTW, don't be afraid to throw things too big at your PCs. Sometimes retreat is the sensible way to go.) I'd suggest this if your PCs are one element in a larger combat or just passing through. o If you want to game something out, there are several decent game and/or miniatures systems you can use, where units are anything form squad-level up to division-level. (This can be done as a pre-cursor to the above). You may want to use this if your PCs are dispersed as staff through out a larger unit. - -------------------------------------------------------- Chris Stainton talks about laser weapons: >And laser weapons? Currently the Former USSR nations use the lasers in >their tanks (for rangefinding purposes) to blind the targets they can't >hit with their main guns.....lasers shoot farther than Cannons. That's >about the extent of laser weaponry (that I know of) The Brits have (since the Falklands) had laser weapons on naval vessel. These function to "dazzle" enemy air by blinding the pilot. While not powerful enough to damage the aircraft, a quick flash over the pilots optic nerves... can have a permanent blinding effect. I do not believe these have actually been used in combat. mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:46:19 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Laser Weapons On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Mitch Schwartz wrote: > >And laser weapons? Currently the Former USSR nations use the lasers in > >their tanks (for rangefinding purposes) to blind the targets they can't > >hit with their main guns.....lasers shoot farther than Cannons. That's > >about the extent of laser weaponry (that I know of) > > The Brits have (since the Falklands) had laser weapons on naval vessel. > These function to "dazzle" enemy air by blinding the pilot. While not > powerful enough to damage the aircraft, a quick flash over the pilots optic > nerves... can have a permanent blinding effect. > > I do not believe these have actually been used in combat. I always thought using lasers to blind someone was just "an added bonus", and that the lasers were installed for other, such as range finding, purposes. Do you mean that the Brits actually install them with the idea of using them in a defensive manner? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 17:55:50 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > >>One of my favorite cadences back at airborne school was:<< > > >>"You can't spell WIMP without the MP!"<< > > Mine was "I want to be a paramedic, snort that funky anesthetic" > Oh, I just marched past the guard post on my way to the chow hall and made the rookies in my command sing ad jingles for dog food... :-) > >>What I've seen of the MP units here at Fort Drum (the 10th and 511th MP > companies) are rear guard duties when we deploy. They ensure that that > people like me (staff weenies) who are 'in the rear with the gear' are > safe from baddies (eg. enemy commandoes, civilians, etc...) as well as Yeah, the same with me. They're the guys who protect my commo center from those nasty spetznaz -- because if I lose my commo center, I'm relegated to fighting spetznaz and paratroopers myself! > here, they also provide help to local law enforcement as we also have an > anti-terrorist team and EOD squad here.<< > EOD? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:01:55 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: MPs On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > is a simple look, or one or two words. MPs as a whole aren't control > freaks (some are though). > Oh, you must have very different MPs from the Finnish ones, then... although we had our ways of paying back... like putting shoepolish on the handle to a door to our company's building, so that when the MP comes to try whether the door is locked during the night... :-) Or the time we left our second story window open one time, and an MP climbed through it and the guy on duty was given hell... we decided to leave the window open again, only this time so, that if someone tries to climb through it, he'll be confronted with the business end of an assault rifle, and made to stay in place until an officer comes to say he's not a spy or saboteur... :-) > >>The MPs deploy just as much (if not more than) other units, especially > during peacetime. They're far from wimps... ;) BTW, there are several I agree completely... in my brigade they were some of the baddest guys around. And they figured they had to be, to really be able to have the ablility to tell all the others what to do. Especially in places where there are no guerilla companies, the MP companies are very tough. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:04:38 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: US Army Snipers On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > >>Some of the weapons though are out of date. The M21 has largely > been replaced by the bolt action M24. speaking of which how does the US > Army uses snipers? Do they actually have trained snipers to begin with or > countersnipers/marksmen (like the Soviet, Israelis, and the French who > issue scoped rifles down to a company/platoon level)?<< > > The army has snipers (and the sniper school at Ft Benning, GA) usually > issued to Infantry Units, with a handful of snipers in a given MP Brigade > (like 3 or 4). I understand the U.S. Army Rangers have specialized snipers too. > Rumor has it that they take a sergeant's Rank (the little Black chevrons) > that odorn the collar and stick them in a tree in the woods, and you go > find it.......................................................... I've read the same rumor somewhere. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:09:03 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: cop dogs On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > If it was a big disturbance, we'd wait for backup (and pray there was a > dog handler on duty at the time) > I really love those dogs. Some big Rambo type gets real meek with a > german shepard's teeth are in position to rip his balls off.......... Police dogs are awesome. Right now they're showing a Finnish version of the "COPS" TV series here in Finland, in which they only go out with K9 patrols. Stuff like: "There's a heavily armed guy in the apartment, he's been shooting a shotgun out of the windows, and vowing to kill anybody who comes near." OK, the cops go to the door, force it open, push the dog in, slam the door shut & stand aside, count to ten out loud, then go in. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:22:20 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: MPs again On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > One thing is for sure, MPs always had to watch their back because grunts > would remember them when ever they got off duty, and off-duty MPs were > always targets of off-duty grunts if they had gotten said off-duty grunt in > trouble or busted him up. > Same here in Finland... as a rule, it was forbidden to even have civilian clothes in the garrison area, but when the MPs went for a longer holiday and some batch of buys was close to getting back into the civilian (reserve) world, the MPs often wore civilian clothes both going out and coming in, so they wouldn't have to put up with any crap during the trips. > John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) Oh yes, a good fried of mine was a medical specialist here in Finland. There was always supposed to be three of them on duty during the nights in the hospital, so one was always AWOL! They spent most of the time during night reading anatomically educational materials, of which there was a large collection, handed down from one generation of medics to another. Penthouse was preferred over Playboy because it showed more anatomy. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:38:21 +0200 (EET) From: Matti Aistrich Subject: Re: Mass Combat Systems? On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > John wrote: > > >>What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than > platoon size (30 plus troops).<< > > I am sure there are many easier ways to do it, Ruins of Warsaw had a > system for mass combat (but being a detail-nut, I didn't like it) Sorry > I couldn't be of more help................ I seem to recall the Ruins of Warsaw bit being really poor, and that it seemed more a sales pitch for the First Battle game by GDW than a true attempt at creating a mass combat system for T2K. John, don't by the First Battle game even if can find it, either. I didn't find it very good (so the sales pitch worked :-) ) Maybe it's just me, though? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #32 ************************************