twilight2000-digest Thursday, November 7 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 031 The following topics are covered in this digest: MEDIC MEDIC Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: Exotic Weapons Request Military Realism Military Realism Mass Combat Systems? Re: Mass Combat Systems? Firearm Debate(s) Re: Military Realism Re: Exotic Weapons Request My favorite weapon choices (was Re: Firearm Debate(s)) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Exotic Weapons Request Re: My favorite weapon choices (was Re: Firearm Debate(s)) Re: Military Realism Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) Re: Firearm Debate(s) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 04:10:56 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: MEDIC >>> My question for you is this: > What exactly comes with the HMMV Ambulance? > How many people can it hold, and what kind of medical supplies? > Refridgeration? > etc., etc., Don't quote me on this but there's actually two kinds of Hummer ambulances- the Mini and Maxi. Both of them can hold a two or three man medic crew plus room for at least two or three more. A "crash cart", monitors, and even a small refegirator to store blood plasma (whole blood's usually kept at a real hospital) along with necessary first aid items. A civilian ambulance dressed in cammie is my logical guess. All conjecture but a lot of trauma these ambulance crews do see are very similar to ones civilian paramedics work on.<<< Thanks Mike, but I kinda wanted the Medic's account. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 12:57:01 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: MEDIC John, Thanks for the information. I feel more "real world" information, rather than conjectures by those who "have a friend in the military" is vital in keeping the "realism" in the game. Guns and big boom booms are nice, but it detracts from the "role-Playing" aspect of the game, IMNSHO. Perhaps the other veterans (or current service members) on the list can provide other useful information to those fans on the list who aren't. >>: I haven't had the chance to ride in the Blackhawk. << I have, quite a few times, as a matter of fact. I like it better than the Huey. It's bigger, and carries more people. Not to mention it just "feels" safer. But I have rappelled a few times out of a Huey, though.--that was fun. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 17:13:31 -0500 From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request Some of those are taken from Dark Conspiracy...... Well yes they have the .44 magnum desert eagle I want the .50 caliber desert eagle! ROF recoil range Damage! Monkey Man ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 15:34:35 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Why? > Why not take the M3, or Thompson SMGs? Parts mainly. The OSS grease guns were never produced in any significant amounts to equip American spec ops units and the Thomson is old technology that works well. Both SMG's accuracy leaves something to be desired. Open bolt blowback type weapons tend to be good out til 100 or 150 yards. Not a big deal but people who use the MP5 are stoked they get the same accuracy as a M16 or other 5.56mm rifle. > This whole fascinating with HK MP series is a bit overrated for me. > But hey, In game stats the rule. In the real > world.......................Hmmmmm Without a doubt the MP5 has become the hip gun to pack but I think it's rep is warranted. It works under very bad conditions and is reliable and accurate and its parts have a long lifespan. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 18:17:50 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request At 09:36 PM 11/5/96 -0800, Michael Choi wrote: > 10mm is a dead round. Back during the early to mid 80s everybody >thought it would replace nine mil only to find out the cartridge was too >damn big to shove lotsa rounds into a magazine like a Wonder Nine. .40 S&W >seems to be more successful because the it's has 10mmx20mm or 21mm >dimensions- the .40 is more based on nine mill dimensions but it's >popularity is only in the US (doesn't hurt that some cop departments >decided to go for guns in .40 Smith). As one person put it the .40 is a >yuppie round. I beg your pardon? I own a Glock 23, and I don't think I'd be classified as a yuppie. The Glock .40's are fantastic weapons. Light, durable, excellent punch for your firearm dollar. It shoots like a dream, has manageable recoil, and its rounds leave decidedly nice impact patterns. Yuppie, no. Sensible, yes. And although I'm the last person to admit that the police have any knowledge of firearms whatsoever, (any police on the ML excluded of course :) they do know quality when it gets thrown in their face enough. That's why so many police departments have gone to that round. It also doesn't hurt the .40 that it is a non-military round, and in several European nations where military calibers are forbidden for sale to the general public, that is a consideration. Rob. Robert Beck E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 16:03:14 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request On Wed, 6 Nov 1996, Rob Beck wrote: > I beg your pardon? I own a Glock 23, and I don't think I'd be classified as > a yuppie. That's the current nickname of the .40 Smith- the yuppie round. I didn't make the name up. Whether this cartridge succeeds in the long term or not only time will tell. Twilight 2000 tends to ceoncentrate on only a handful of calibers because when you get right down to it- the current global arsenal of small arms are just inundated with AKs, M16s, and various 9mm handguns and SMGs- at least that's what Jane's Defense Weekly keeps on hammering about. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:19:05 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Military Realism Hi folks, In regards to military realism, try the several military homepages available. They have loads of info and pics of items you might be interested in. The bes place to start is www.army.mil and from there explore the other bases and find out battle lineages and honors of other units. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:06:50 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Military Realism >I was just talking to some people about this very thing. > >Our delemma was, do you really need military experience >to play a game like this in a realistic manner. I argue, >no, otherwise it would not be very popular except with >x-military. > >Otherwise, D&D would not be a very popular game either... >How many elfs, orcs, and goblins do you know?... > >It is all just pretend. I do argue, that having people >with experience is a tremendous bonus, but, of course, >not essential. > >On the other hand, I am counting on you and the other >military folks to correct me when I screw up...I am mainly >going on hearsay, movies, discovery channel and what I see >at work. (I work for a company which dives heavily into >military affiars) > >What do you think? Good point. As for me, I don't think you have to be ex-anything to enjoy TW2K or any other game for that matter. Like you mentioned, how many ex-Imperial Marines from Deneb do you know or ex-Superheroes from New York... =) Once again, it's all role playing and imagining and playing out the situation and having a 'feel' for what your character would do if placed in a certain situation. Obvisously if anyone were placed in that situation in 'real life' then of course 'acting it out' would be probably easier... Yes, having exeprience helps, but of course not essential. That's why it's fantasy and 'make believe.' John B. (staff weenie) John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 20:08:37 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Mass Combat Systems? Hi, What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than platoon size (30 plus troops). John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 01:49:20 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Mass Combat Systems? John wrote: >>What systems do you use for mass combat, that is elements larger than platoon size (30 plus troops).<< Man, I try not to go there....... My fatal flaw (as a player and GM) is DETAILS..............I like to know everything about every character, NPCs, equipment allocations, etc., so MASS combat is extremely difficult for me, HOWEVER I have (and am still, occasionally) running a Twilight 1997 campaign, wherein the PCs are in the Leadership positions of an infantry platoon (PL, PSG, SL's, TL's etc.) and the rest of the platoon is made up of NPCs. The major problem I came into was when the 82nd Airborne Division dropped in on the Soviet 104th Guards Airborne Division in May of 1997. BAsically I had to have combat for two divisions.......................... What I did was outlined the way the events were going to go (as seen in RDF sourcebook) and then started to go down the line with Brigades (their roles, positions, etc., ) Battalions, Companies, Platoons, etc., Then I had a series of events (random acts of war) happen, radio malfunctions, etc Other reports of enemy movement, contact and destruction, problems with medevacs, etc., I knew my platoon was going to get hit by X sized force at X hours. So I prerolled a bunch of outcomes and then went from there. I am sure there are many easier ways to do it, Ruins of Warsaw had a system for mass combat (but being a detail-nut, I didn't like it) Sorry I couldn't be of more help................ Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 01:49:20 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Firearm Debate(s) I think this whole discussion was sparked because someone asked about exotic weaponry (for twilight- not real world). Then I suggested an "exotic" firearm, then the whole tirade about .45's vs 10mm vs .40's. HKs vs everybody, etc....... This is Twilight 2000 Not many people who play the game actually own a firearm, have shot one, and even fewer still could be labled as qualified with a particular firearm. In reality, firearms tend to be very personal choices for those who carry and/or own them. Some may say, "well this gun is good because......" and some might respond, "No it isn't, because...." Blah blah blah. It's kinda like saying,"Pink floyd is the best rock band, because......." They're all VERY personal choice for those who fire and own them. There is no right and wrong. For me (like you care) the Beretta 92F is perfectly fine for me. I carried it on Duty for 7 years as an MP, and I like it. I know I can hit things with it. I am qualified on the M1911A1 as well, but I am not comfortable with the weapon, strictly because of it's accuracy. I have fired the Glock (17 I believe) and didn't like it, strictly because the ejected shells had a tendancy to hit me square in the forhead. It's just one small example of how everyone is different with respect to their forearms of choice. Back to the game........... If everyone wanted the best weapons here's my pick: SMG- OSSM3- some may say rare, but hell, starting out you'll have the money to get it. Range- not bad, recoil- beautiful. and .45ACP still a common round. PISTOL M1911A1- It's common enough, and it packs a punch (for a pistol) RIFLE Toughy here: HK G3, or the M16A2 I can't decide. MGs M60 (actually the M60E3- but versions 2.0+ didn't mention it) but I might be biased on the M60. AUTO-RIFLE RPK (7.62mmS version) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 01:49:20 EST From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Subject: Re: Military Realism >I was just talking to some people about this very thing. > >Our delemma was, do you really need military experience >to play a game like this in a realistic manner. I argue, >no, otherwise it would not be very popular except with >x-military. > >Otherwise, D&D would not be a very popular game either... >How many elfs, orcs, and goblins do you know?... > >It is all just pretend. I do argue, that having people >with experience is a tremendous bonus, but, of course, >not essential. > >On the other hand, I am counting on you and the other >military folks to correct me when I screw up...I am mainly >going on hearsay, movies, discovery channel and what I see >at work. (I work for a company which dives heavily into >military affiars) > >What do you think? Uh oh.............here goes............................ As a combat military service veteran, I feel that you do not need to be ex-military to enjoy twilight or play it in a realistic manner, and you certainly don't need to be ex-combat. Twilight 2000 is a role-playing game using a war and mainly military characters as a backdrop. Role-playing games are just that.....playing a role. It isn't about the fact that I as an actor (or player) have no clue about what is going to happen the first time I pull the trigger of my imaginary gun. If you have a good GM, and are imaginative as a player, there is no real disadvantage in not being military. What Being a veteran gives the character (and other players) is perhaps an added sense of realism. How many players know what exactly comes in an MRE? or what the hell is a K-ration? How is it cooked? what those damned field latrines smell like? The basic everyday routines of soldiers (and sailors, and marines and airmen) is what the military service veterans can (and do ) offer to their games. Twilight is a game derived for entertainment purposes. It is more fun (in game terms) to launch gerenades at people, than to do KP. Twilight tries to leave out the mundane boring stuff and give the meat......like guns. How many twilight players are "gun nuts"? They love 'em, so twilight 'll (did) print them. I think as a player (and vet) that the biggest enjoyment for me is to watch other players pick up on and formulate opinions about that mundane stuff. (someone once said war is 95% boredom interupted by moments of sheer terror) Having them understand what it's like as a soldier (mainly boring, and what makes it so) is part of the satisfaction I get when as a player and GM. Hell, the biggest complement you can give one of us (well, me anyway) is when you ask for details about equipment, organization, etc. And then actually use that advice in a game session.... I mean if we want to get REALISTIC here.....look at the picture (drawing) for the HMMV in both the US army vehicle guide and the main rule book. How the hell can that M2HB rotate? it isn't on a vehicle mount......it is flush on the roof....... And laser weapons? Currently the Former USSR nations use the lasers in their tanks (for rangefinding purposes) to blind the targets they can't hit with their main guns.....lasers shoot farther than Cannons. That's about the extent of laser weaponry (that I know of) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:53:11 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request At 04:03 PM 11/6/96 -0800, you wrote: > That's the current nickname of the .40 Smith- the yuppie round. I >didn't make the name up. I didn't suspect that you did. :) It's not you that I'm disagreeing with, it's just that I don't happen to agree with that classification. > Twilight 2000 tends to ceoncentrate on only a handful of calibers >because when you get right down to it- the current global arsenal of small >arms are just inundated with AKs, M16s, and various 9mm handguns and SMGs- >at least that's what Jane's Defense Weekly keeps on hammering about. This I'm fully in agreement with. You notice I didn't take umbrage with that. :) Rob. Robert Beck E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:13:20 -0500 From: Rob Beck Subject: My favorite weapon choices (was Re: Firearm Debate(s)) At 01:49 AM 11/7/96 EST, you wrote: >This is Twilight 2000 Chris brought up a good point, and I wasn't debating that. Just stating my personal preference, like everyone else. Now, if you're talking weapons loads in the game, my first and favorite character had a fairly specific load of weapons he liked to carry. I had him carrying the M1911A1, for probably the same reasons as Chris stated, because it was common and it could cause a fair amount of damage. I went for the HK-CAW for anything close range. The character had the strength and the shooting skill to make him really deadly at close range with that thing. I always tried to keep a rifle stowed in the vehicle or on horseback, depending on how our mission was going. I preferred the M21 because the ammo was fairly easily obtainable in our campaign area (Poland), although not super-available, and because it packed a great punch. I preferred the Uzi for him, if there was a situation that required an SMG (wasn't there always), because the Germans were using the hell out of them and ammo was common. Always found it amusing that the Germans were using an Israeli weapon. Maybe it was just me. :) Of course, I don't recall ever having turned down a weapon. When your guy (or gal as the case may be) is faced with the need to survive or die and there are AK's or M16's laying around, who can be picky? Rob. Robert Beck E-Mail: beck@mail.all-net.net Send E-Mail For My Public PGP Key. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:41:04 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > carried it on Duty for 7 years as an MP, and I like it. I know I can hit > things with it. What are the duties of a divisional MP company? Directing traffice? Providing rear area security? Making grunts salute and shine their boots at the end of very big stick;)? > Back to the game........... > If everyone wanted the best weapons here's my pick: > SMG- > OSSM3- some may say rare, but hell, starting out you'll have the money to > get it. I think Merc 2000 and TW2K Special Ops give better rules on sound surpressors but I'm not so sure- mainly using the old 2.0 rules about AVR:RCN to hear the noise of an automatic weapon being ripped through a can at short ranges. The problem is the Grease Gun has been out of production for more than fifty years. I'm surprised why the M3/M3A1 was in the books in the beginning... > M1911A1- It's common enough, and it packs a punch (for a pistol) I always liked the choice in Twilight that gave Americans in terms of issue sidearms. Either the Beretta or the .45. More often than not players and GMs tend to get/give out the .45. > Toughy here: HK G3, or the M16A2 > I can't decide. Depends. If your character is pretty good marksman and if there's a SAW or two and even a full sized 7.62mm NATO machinegun take the Gewehr 3. Granted- in terms of twilight detail there's not much to choose between the HK G3A3 versus models of the FAL. Real world's slightly different (the G3's rear drum sight has is marked for 200, 300, and 400 meters, the most FALs using a sliding rear sight that's marked out to 600 meters/600 yards for the Commonwealth SLRs and the Canadian C1s- not that it matters) > MGs > M60 (actually the M60E3- but versions 2.0+ didn't mention it) but I > might be biased on the M60. I always though GDW went overboard in terms of rate of fire for most machineguns and the fact there's no barrel change rules or aimed five or six round bursts sort of ticks me off. People can aim machineguns even they're supposedly area effect weapons. There's also the M60E4. Notice though both the Army and Marines opted for the MAG- the M240E4 for the US Army has a heat shield/handguard, rail mount for various scopes, and a automatic leveling bipod. The M240G is more or less a straight copy of the MAG. > AUTO-RIFLE > RPK (7.62mmS version) I don't know- I'm more prone to the SAW as a player namely due to the larger belt fed magazine and lower recoil. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:52:18 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Exotic Weapons Request On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Rob Beck wrote: > At 04:03 PM 11/6/96 -0800, you wrote: > > > That's the current nickname of the .40 Smith- the yuppie round. I > >didn't make the name up. > > I didn't suspect that you did. :) It's not you that I'm disagreeing with, > it's just that I don't happen to agree with that classification. When you get right down to it Twilight's what I call a MAN'S RPG (insert Tim Allen grunts). A real Walter Mittyism. Most people who played Twilight probably will never see the business end of a rifle in combat or even sign the dotted line and do four years for Uncle Sugar. Role playing games are suppsoedly concentrated on character interactions, right? Players working with or against other players or the GM's creations, right? That isn't say to that i'm totally happy about Twilight. They put all these neat stuff into the various books and modules and then nothing... GDW doesn't appreciate how dangerous arty really is- hence in my experience as a player most PCs just pack small arms, maybe badass wheels, but nothing in the way of a heavy gun. At least a puny 60mm mortar or even a bigger 81. Then again Twilight's just screaming to be considered as war game due to the amount of hardware in it. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:05:27 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: My favorite weapon choices (was Re: Firearm Debate(s)) On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Rob Beck wrote: > Chris brought up a good point, and I wasn't debating that. Just stating my > personal preference, like everyone else. Some of the weapons though are out of date. The M21 has largely been replaced by the bolt action M24. speaking of which how does the US Army uses snipers? Do they actually have trained snipers to begin with or countersnipers/marksmen (like the Soviet, Israelis, and the French who issue scoped rifles down to a company/platoon level)? On the other side of the Iron Curtain- the Czech Vz24/25 submachineguns haven't been used since the 1950s and what the Hell is a AKMR? Just before the Breakup of 1989 and the Fall of the USSR in 1991- a lot of former Pact countries were making their own variants of the AK74- East Bermany doing the best job in terms of quality and metallurgy with Hungary coming in second place, etc. > Now, if you're talking weapons loads in the game, my first and favorite > character had a fairly specific load of weapons he liked to carry. I had him > carrying the M1911A1, for probably the same reasons as Chris stated, because > it was common and it could cause a fair amount of damage. I went for the > HK-CAW for anything close range. It does come down to damage dice. especially in second ed Twilight. The concept of doing 9d6 for short range damage is too good to ignore even if effective range is less than 100 meters. Recoil for the CAW on full auto was nasty but anything above 5 rounds was sort of pointless due to the puny magazine size. > I preferred the Uzi for him, if there was a situation that required an SMG > (wasn't there always), because the Germans were using the hell out of them > and ammo was common. Always found it amusing that the Germans were using an > Israeli weapon. Maybe it was just me. :) Actually Dutch, Belgian, and West german Uzis were built by FN Herstyal under license from IMI. Not too ironic considering that before the 1967 Six Day War Bonn semi-covertly supplied the State of Israel with M48A2 tanks and the earliest versions of the HAWK SAM system with approval from both Kennedy and Johnson. Enough for the history lesson and always remember politics make strange bedfellows to say the least. What's funny is why the Bundeswehr used Uzis instead of buying MP5A3s.. > Of course, I don't recall ever having turned down a weapon. When your guy > (or gal as the case may be) is faced with the need to survive or die and > there are AK's or M16's laying around, who can be picky? An enterprising character grabs all the loot laying around and uses them to dicker around some local yokel farmer who figures its time to upgrade from a pitchfork now that gun control has gone out the window. a Great way to get real food instead of MREs and helpful tips about the opposition in my expreience. Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:18:24 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Military Realism On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > And laser weapons? Currently the Former USSR nations use the lasers in > their tanks (for rangefinding purposes) to blind the targets they can't > hit with their main guns.....lasers shoot farther than Cannons. That's > about the extent of laser weaponry (that I know of) Actually to muddy the waters- the Red Army had to deal with short range tank guns in favor for 125mm missiles like the AT8 radio guided Songster and the AT11 Sniper and the laser guided 100mm AT10 Stabber. Missile tanks came around the same time as the ill fated 152mm gun-launcher on the M551 Sheridans and the M60A2 Pattons- fortunately the missile and tanks design bureaus took a different engineering approach. In stead of packing the largest possible gun to fit a decent ATGM they opted to fit a missile into the confines of a 125mm smoothbore. As a GM I try to triple the amount of armor that a soviet tank has in terms of shaped charged AT weapons. The Red Army has a definite hard on for reactive armor namely due to the fact Chobbam's too expensive and a belief that mass will eventually win over quality. It's easier to build tanks made from cast and welded steels than trying to piece together slabs of stainless steel with sandwiched ceramics, metals, and carbon fiber material inside. Soviet tanks in any event have also went with laser rangefinders but little detail has been provided about ballsitic computers until now (at least export versions). Generally an analog device in which range is inputted along with ammo performance instead of digital software based fire control systems on Western ueberpanzers. Remember one thing about Soviet hardware- more often than not it's been in service for more than five years because the lack of human intelligence resources and the fact a lot of Soviet military hardware is pretty prosaic. Still to say the USSR is backward holds no merit- they just view their army and war differently thatn the US does. Brought to you by Jane's Defense Weekly;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:01:59 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) At 06:36 PM 11/7/96 EDT, you wrote: >On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > >> carried it on Duty for 7 years as an MP, and I like it. I know I can hit >> things with it. > > What are the duties of a divisional MP company? Directing >traffice? Providing rear area security? Making grunts salute and shine >their boots at the end of very big stick;)? One of my favorite cadences back at airborne school was: "You can't spell WIMP without the MP!" What I've seen of the MP units here at Fort Drum (the 10th and 511th MP companies) are rear guard duties when we deploy. They ensure that that people like me (staff weenies) who are 'in the rear with the gear' are safe from baddies (eg. enemy commandoes, civilians, etc...) as well as monitor POW centers. While in garrison, they are (correct me if I'm wrong) federal police officers and give tickets, answer domestic calls, etc... Around here, they also provide help to local law enforcement as we also have an anti-terrorist team and EOD squad here. The MPs deploy just as much (if not more than) other units, especially during peacetime. They're far from wimps... ;) BTW, there are several MPs on the list, I'm sure they can shed more light on this subject. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:01:59 -0500 From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) Well I just pointed out a few guns I liked in the REAL world with the second post to the subject wanting to know if anyone had the twilight stats for them Range recoil for twilight. I know there are better guns but I wanted to know about them in twilight. I know alot about them in the real world. Monkey Man ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 19:14:01 -0500 From: Hruggek@aol.com Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) >>"You can't spell WIMP without the MP!"<< My dad was a MP in Korea and I plan on being one when I can join. I have heard the tales of his actions over there and seen his silver star. He was also a photographer and he has let me look at some of the pickers he took the next morning after "The Wimps" where invaded by the locals. Now they where told to hold on to the material at all costs. He says he never killed anyone but he has a picture of a tennage boy my age without a head. Buckshot will do that and its not pretty. He lost two of his freinds gaurding jeeps and food. He has pictures of them too. They used whatever they could get seeing as when he went most of the money in the military was going to Vietnam. They where stuck with out dated M1s, double barrel shotguns, and one M60 for the whole camp. Those where the only things keeping the natives out besides a chain link fence. And not to mention that if the VC wanted to go into Korea they would be the 'slow down' force for the army, And they would be the third stop for the VC. Think about it before you call a MP a wimp. They get shity weapons even today and have to pull for shit jobs. Monkey Man ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:00:23 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) At 08:12 PM 11/7/96 EDT, you wrote: >>>"You can't spell WIMP without the MP!"<< > >force for the army, And they would be the third stop for the VC. Think about >it before you call a MP a wimp. They get shity weapons even today and have to >pull for shit jobs. I agree, MPs are definately not wimps. By buddy was an MP in Korea, and loved it so much he decided to do his tour there twice! Not only did he have to watch out for the locals, but the troops there too. On several occasions he'd have to go down range and patrol the ville (Camp Casey or Yongson, I don't know... the Beast of the East) and make sure the grunts were good to go and not causing too much of a ruckus. Unfortunately, when you have companies coming back from the field after a month or two, they wanna party hard and well, rivalries between units always flare up. It wasn't suprising to see whole platoons and maybe companies of line-dogs beating the be-jeezus out of each other, or out of some of the locals (who happen to hate GIs). And then to be in the middle as an MP trying to break it up! Holy sh*t batman! No way! =) One thing is for sure, MPs always had to watch their back because grunts would remember them when ever they got off duty, and off-duty MPs were always targets of off-duty grunts if they had gotten said off-duty grunt in trouble or busted him up. As far as shit jobs are concerned, medics get some crappy ones too, like pulling KP in the field or digging trenches, when the 1SG thinks we're shamming... ;) But medics nowadays are involved in much more than running out on the battlefield and patching people up; field hygiene, decon, evac, sanitation, etc... all that preventive medicine. On a side note if anyone is interested... We also train people such as grunts or artillery men (gun bunnies or canon cockers if you want some derogatory names, I don't have any for medics...) as Combat Lifesavers which basically teaches them how to give IVs and rescue breathing (no CPR) and re-emphasize first aid learned in basic (field and pressure dressings, tourniquets, shock, etc...) This helps a lot when the medics can't get there in time. The common Combat Lifesaver bag contains 2 500 ml Ringers lactate (IVs), catheters, various OTC meds, J-tube, and various bandages. Of course this varies per CLS, but they all pretty much stick to the SOP. Same things go with regular medics. I have all sorts of shit in my aid bag. It's a mess, but I know where everything is anyways... John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 20:07:19 -0500 From: John Banagan Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) BTW, the HMMWV pictured in the TW2K vs. 2.1 looks like the kind used by the MPs and grunts. It's lightly armored against very small rounds and shrapnel, but a good 60 could light one up and a 50 cal would rip it up. When I was in the field the other week, the grunts use TOWs on theirs and 60s, the MPs had 60s. I think the turrets have some sort of electronic swivel mount for the 60s. Anybody have any ideas? The vehicles us regular pogues use are plastic covered (!) and wouldn't stand a chance against a rock or maybe a foot! =P Zero protection. John B. John Banagan, Medical Specialist (91B) HHC 10th Mountain Division (Light Infantry) "Climb to Glory!" jbanagan@imcbbs.imcnet.net (preferred) jbanagan@juno.com (alternate) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:06:03 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > > What I've seen of the MP units here at Fort Drum (the 10th and 511th MP > companies) are rear guard duties when we deploy. They ensure that that > people like me (staff weenies) who are 'in the rear with the gear' are safe > from baddies (eg. enemy commandoes, civilians, etc...) as well as monitor > POW centers. Medical specialist? What you worked in a hospital? Is there any MOS differences between medics assigned to platoons and companies than ambulance drivers and those who work in hospitals? That and what's the scoop on the Geneva Convention on arming medics? I've heard that's supposed to be a nughty naughty but the US never signed the Geneva Convention- thus we do not have to adhere to the "rules of war";). Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:31:22 -0800 (PST) From: Michael S Choi Subject: Re: Firearm Debate(s) On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, John Banagan wrote: > BTW, the HMMWV pictured in the TW2K vs. 2.1 looks like the kind used by the > MPs and grunts. It's lightly armored against very small rounds and > shrapnel, but a good 60 could light one up and a 50 cal would rip it up. > When I was in the field the other week, the grunts use TOWs on theirs and > 60s, the MPs had 60s. I think the turrets have some sort of electronic > swivel mount for the 60s. Well there's M1114 Heavy Hummers if that's what you mean? Kevalr or Spectra reinforced body panels and polycarbonate windshields and windows (and real doors to boot;) that give a ballistic protection out to .308 and even 155mm airbursts some 15 meters away and deck protection against smaller anti-tank mines. It's a pity that nobody took up the LAV25 as recon and fighting vehicle for cav units assigned to light divisions and I wonder if the Army's still regretting the XM8 decision. And honest to goodness light tank that actually has more protection than a M60A3. But that's another story. Out of curiosity I know .50 cal and TOW armed Hummers are assigned to battalion weapons' companies in the Marines but what about the doggies;)? (as the old term goes) Do light infantry battalions have armed Hummers as a forward mobile anti-tank and fire support role (doubling as a forward recon element). Or do light infantry grunts just make do with more Dragons and 81mm mortars? Granted I'm more biased towards armor and mech units (tanks look cooler;) > Anybody have any ideas? Anybody know if 5 tons or deuce and halfs are actually assigned to light infantry battalions or do they just go to war the old fashioned way and hump it? (every so often trying to bum a ride from a chopper) Modern modular armor (look at the MEXAS ads in JDW- a German company that's providing composite spaced armor from Bundeswehr MAN trucks, the new Leopard 2Is/2A5s, and the Canadian Leo C1) or even look at GM Canada's or MOWAG's uparmored LAV program. > The vehicles us regular pogues use are plastic covered (!) and wouldn't > stand a chance against a rock or maybe a foot! =P Zero protection. Beats walking from what I've heard;) Mad Mike "The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy and drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather to your bosom his wives and his daughters." Genghis Khan 1226 ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #31 ************************************