twilight2000-digest Friday, 25 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 029 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Re: Spares 2. Re: Spares 3. Re: DUMB PLAYERS 4. Re: Spares 5. Re: DUMB PLAYERS 6. Traveller? 7. Re: Re: Spares 8. DUMB 9. Re: DUMB PLAYERS 10. Re: DUMB PLAYERS 11. Re: Traveller? 12. Re: Re: Spares 13. Re: Re: Spares 14. Re: DUMB 15. Re: Re: Spares ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:20:08 EDT Subject: Re: Spares > >Then when I flipped over the book (version 2.0) it says, "Eqip Yourself, >> use your money for Vehicles, ......and spares" >> Well, ok.....how? >% of original cost to replace a given amount of "wear" value for each >system... But when you INITIALLY purchase equipment, how do you purchase spare parts for EACH system? And how much does EACH system cost? When calculating Wear value, do you find out what each system's individual wear value is? Then decide that you'll buy 2 wear points worth of spares for say, the suspension? And how much does that weight? And how much cargo room does it take up? etc., etc.,etc., ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:30:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Spares - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Spares > Date: Thursday, October 24, 1996 5:20 PM > >% of original cost to replace a given amount of "wear" value for each > >system... > > But when you INITIALLY purchase equipment, how do you purchase spare > parts for EACH system? And how much does EACH system cost? > When calculating Wear value, do you find out what each system's > individual wear value is? Then decide that you'll buy 2 wear points > worth of spares for say, the suspension? > And how much does that weight? And how much cargo room does it take up? I suppose you could handle it the same way that Traveller handles contacts. ;-) You have four points worth of repairs, and when you need a repair the GM rolls to determine if the four points you have are the right four points... You could assume that 75% of a vehicle's weight are systems that you can't logistically carry spares for (i.e. the suspension), and then extrapolate space and weight considerations for spare engine parts, etc. This, of course, will not satisfy the purist. I must note that I have NEVER had any players ask for, worry about, or even consider this sort of thing until something breaks down. ;-) Except, of course, to make sure that they have a resident scrounge who can procure things for them at need. Most people are not mechanics by nature and with their experience with automobiles do not understand the abuse the military vehicles take, and the constant maintenance that combat vehicles require. Most folks are lucky to change their oil before the oil light comes on or the engine seizes up... ;-) I concur that the rules are lacking here, but I posit that the average GM or player doesn't care... Combat and death are enough realism for them, and they still can't fathom the fact that Mr. Goodwrench and McDonald's aren't around the corner... This, I think, the conflict between player expectations and the actual game availability of things, are part of what generate the hopelessness of the situation in T2k, Dark Conspiracy, and Traveller's Hard Times campaign. Perhaps after the players have been in the campaign they'll begin to think about these things, but if they have them to start with (i.e. the GM sez, "You boys aughta stock up on parts. The nearest Hi/Lo's a long ways off...") that it would detract from the game atmosphere... Part of the feel of T2k is being unprepared for the way things are and dealing with them anyway... These kind of rules (we called them "fish hook" rules in EGS many, many moons ago, in honor of a cleric who detailed his equipment down to buttons and fish hooks) take away from the role-playing and turn it more toward rule-playing, IMNSHO, and most players could care less. "Oh, the LAV doesn't work anymore? Bummer. I guess we junk it. Hey! There's a Ruskie armored column, let's go 'borrow' one of their T-72s..." ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: WyoDiver@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:24:57 -0400 Subject: Re: DUMB PLAYERS On 22 Oct 96; kappaabz@juno.com asked the question, "Don't you just love dumb players?" He then proceeded to tell us how "his players screwed up his game." He then told us how great a job he did hosing his players. I, in turn, would like to ask if there are any other dumb DM's? A good DM doesn't dominate a game, but guides it. It sounds like you don't have a clue. I've seen this God syndrome before. His players may not have a clue about reality and playing for real, but no one is getting killed for real in a TW2K game. Keep that in mind when you develop a campaign in the future. Try to lead your players down a path, but if they want to go a different direction, adapt! ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Spares On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, David Reed wrote: > I suppose you could handle it the same way that Traveller handles > contacts. ;-) You have four points worth of repairs, and when you need a > repair the GM rolls to determine if the four points you have are the right > four points... You could assume that 75% of a vehicle's weight are > systems that you can't logistically carry spares for (i.e. the > suspension), and then extrapolate space and weight considerations for > spare engine parts, etc. This, of course, will not satisfy the purist. Not too bad. Actually when it comes right down to it- a lot of parts on military vehicles are more or less decalred off limits to the crews because of the specialized equipment needed to test and repair these goodies. Pefect example is no tanker in his right mind is going to touch the laser rangerfinder and thermal imager- if they don't work the crew's either going to have to strip out the compenent parts and trade in new ones or wait for some civilian contractor to earn their big bucks. Nowadays though with built in test equipment and little liquid crystal screen that tells you what's broken and what's up and running.... Still like or not maintenance and spares are how things work. > I must note that I have NEVER had any players ask for, worry about, or > even consider this sort of thing until something breaks down. ;-) > Except, of course, to make sure that they have a resident scrounge who can > procure things for them at need. Most people are not mechanics by nature > and with their experience with automobiles do not understand the abuse the > military vehicles take, and the constant maintenance that combat vehicles > require. Most folks are lucky to change their oil before the oil light > comes on or the engine seizes up... ;-) You cruel heartless bastard;). Believe it or not there's actually more TLC given to a humble Hummer athan most of us give to our cars. Granted the peons who are driving them are going to face a wrath of a very big NCO who probably has more time in the chow hall than the poor slic sleeve has in the Army. I generally don't give a damn abou oil until my dad gives me some bucks to go to Jiffy Lube. > The nearest Hi/Lo's a long ways off...") that it would detract from the > game atmosphere... But the thing is both the Cossacks and the Cowboys have been trading plutonium flavored deathblows a couple months, years before the big nukeout. Any character in uniform with running tracks and tanks and loaded rifles with plenty of ammo, lube, and bore cleaner knows the importance of preventive care, scrounging, and overall theft. > Part of the feel of T2k is being unprepared for the way things are and > dealing with them anyway... Hmmmmm.... > These kind of rules (we called them "fish hook" rules in EGS many, many > moons ago, in honor of a cleric who detailed his equipment down to buttons > and fish hooks) take away from the role-playing and turn it more toward > rule-playing, IMNSHO, and most players could care less. "Oh, the LAV > doesn't work anymore? Bummer. I guess we junk it. Hey! There's a > Ruskie armored column, let's go 'borrow' one of their T-72s..." And then a really nasty GM will point out that T72 was headed for the scrapyard since it's since hard wear and tear and not been through a factory overhaul. Remember how the Red Army trains and fights- they use a lot of SHORT TERM conscript soldiers that often don't speak or read the same language. And imagine these intrepid heroes when they find the loader racks of the tank nearly empty, the barrel burned out, the sights have to be boresighted back in the rear with the cold beer, etc. War sucks;) But you're right. GMs and players should be more worried about how the game goes and not the mechanics. BUT GUNS ARE SO COOL:) Mad Mike - --- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DUMB PLAYERS On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 WyoDiver@aol.com wrote: > I, in turn, would like to ask if there are any other dumb DM's? A good DM > doesn't dominate a game, but guides it. It sounds like you don't have a > clue. I've seen this God syndrome before. His players may not have a clue > about reality and playing for real, but no one is getting killed for real in > a TW2K game. Keep that in mind when you develop a campaign in the future. > Try to lead your players down a path, but if they want to go a different > direction, adapt! Hard though. My main experience with Twilight's reading and I haven't been really able to GM. It takes a lot of experience in cranking out a good adventure that can't be thwarted because a PC gets smart and decide to avoid that ambush, etc. Mad Mike - ---- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:31:20 EDT Subject: Traveller? David wrote: >>I suppose you could handle it the same way that Traveller handles contacts. ;-) << which version of Traveller? and how do they handle it? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:31:20 EDT Subject: Re: Re: Spares >>But you're right. GMs and players should be more worried about how the game goes and not the mechanics.<< Well, I guess I'm a "fishook" type of player, I like to know what's in my pocket, and if I have a toothbrush or not. I am the kind of player who is totally satisfied when I don't have to fire a shot, game-combat is great, but I'd rather be concerned about who my character is, where he's from, how does he feel about this, or that, and particularly WHY he feels that way. >>Actually when it comes right down to it- a lot of parts on military vehicles are more or less decalred off limits to the crews because of the specialized equipment needed to test and repair these goodies. Pefect example is no tanker in his right mind is going to touch the laser rangerfinder and thermal imager<< Exactly, my orders ( well the whole company's orders) were that only the motor pool is to fix flats. Apearantly the nuts on the HMMV's tires get easily stripped, so that only the motor pool had the right tools (the reason they gave us anyway), and if we did it we'd strip the nut. So, needless to say the motor pool had to fix ALOT of flat tires....................................... >>You cruel heartless bastard;). Believe it or not there's actually more TLC given to a humble Hummer athan most of us give to our cars.<< The driver for the hummer I was in was an E-5. And man did he take care of that vehicle. I do believe that ours was the only one in the platoon that didn't get a flat, or break down. Perhaps it was because the Platoon Sergeant was also riding in it.... But i was just looking at the Back of the book, where it promised something it didn't deliver.....and I was wondering how other GMs delt with it. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 01:31:20 EDT Subject: DUMB On Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:24:57 -0400 WyoDiver@aol.com started unbiased personal attacks on someone whom he has never met, gamed with, or spent any real time getting to know. Well now, are we going to get into a personal flame attack in this area? God, I hope not. >I, in turn, would like to ask if there are any other dumb DM's? So I am dumb? Is that what I am supposed to deduce from your comment? > A good DM doesn't dominate a game, but guides it. I don't dominate my games, as a matter of fact, I usually go in the total opposite direction and let the reigns totally go......but you must've known that because I am dumb and then you must be smart, right? >It sounds like you don't have a clue. A clue as to what? How to effectively "DM" a game (and Twilight uses referees of GMs, T$R owns the copyright to the phrase "DM"--but perhaps that correction was part of my "God syndrome"?)? How to effectively run a prolonged campaign for more than say, 7 or 8, real years? Please......... >I've seen this God syndrome before. "God syndrome"? Perhaps you could explain, in detail, what exactly is this "God Syndrome"......... >His players may not have a >clue about reality and playing for real, (Hruggrek? you want to comment on this one?) > but no one is getting killed for >real in a TW2K game. Try to lead your players down a path, but if they want to >go a different direction, adapt! Perhaps if you'd been in that particular party of players (Hruggrek speak up about good ol' willy any time, here) you'd understand. Any game (AD&D, T2K, Etc..) he (this one problem person) is in, he plays the same person, just with different stats. No amount of explaination, or coaching, or coaxing (10 years worth) was going to help. This player truly believed that anytime he was playing, it was him vs. the world- other PCs and GMs alike. And usually I do adapt, and very Rarely do I kill off PCs and I ALWAYS leave them a chance of escape/survival......ALWAYS I guess from now on I'll just post "dumb" responses to other people when they are trying to get some (any) discussion going about a game I've been playing for over a decade.......................... Sorry for the waste of "smart" bandwith, dumb dm. ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 04:40:33 -0400 Subject: Re: DUMB PLAYERS In a message dated 96-10-24 21:27:15 EDT, wyodiver@aol.com writes: > >I, in turn, would like to ask if there are any other dumb DM's? A good DM >doesn't dominate a game, but guides it. It sounds like you don't have a >clue. I've seen this God syndrome before. His players may not have a clue >about reality and playing for real, but no one is getting killed for real in >a TW2K game. Keep that in mind when you develop a campaign in the future. > Try to lead your players down a path, but if they want to go a different >direction, adapt! Geez from one of my own...Ok Ok Ski I'll get the turns out on a timely basis, I promise.... ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:42:04 -0500 Subject: Re: DUMB PLAYERS - ---------- > From: WyoDiver@aol.com > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: DUMB PLAYERS > Date: Thursday, October 24, 1996 8:24 PM > I, in turn, would like to ask if there are any other dumb DM's? A good DM > doesn't dominate a game, but guides it. It sounds like you don't have a > clue. I've seen this God syndrome before. His players may not have a clue > about reality and playing for real, but no one is getting killed for real in > a TW2K game. Keep that in mind when you develop a campaign in the future. > Try to lead your players down a path, but if they want to go a different > direction, adapt! I'm not sure I agree here... Hosing players for no reason is one thing, but having the game world respond to overtly hostile PCs in a believable fashion is another. Given my poor memory, I believe the PC in question deliberately scratched a non-hostile NPC and the party then looted the farm. The deader's kinfolk took offense and proceeded to take out his vengeance upon the hapless and clueless PCs... I think that's a rather believable reaction from the gameworld. Makes for lots of plots in Hollywood anyway. ;-) I, too, have experienced the God Complex of which you speak both as a player and as a GM. I admit to becoming frustrated with PCs who deliberately scoff at my meticulously detailed plot and run amuck killing and maiming innocents and combatants alike. ;-\ But in my old age, I've come to realize that the PCs aren't always going to want to be the heroes of legend, but many use roleplaying as a vent for otherwise socially inexpressible desires and feelings... There aren't any "Real World"(tm) consequences for pillaging and rapine inside the game, and many, especially younger players, want to fantasize this, and avoid the consequences of trying it out in the "Real World"(tm), to satisfy their curiosity, perversion, whatever. I agree that a good GM should adapt to the players' desires, however, the players should give some good indication of what they want to do. This is why we generate characters as a separate preliminary session before I develop the scenario/campaign in more than general terms. Which PCs are created is a good indication of how they will behave, as is what the players discuss whilst so doing. The whole fantasy must be fun for all. *shrug* The game is a collaborative work between the players and GM, with the workload heavily weighted on the GM's side of the equation, mostly through his own inability or lack of desire to delegate... *snicker* The game doesn't exist without either side, so cooperation and understanding should be the rule... However, if you find yourself disgusted/aggravated/annoyed by the behavior of the group, or a minority of the group, talk to the PC(s) in question, find a new group, or just write supplements and articles to satisfy your creative desires... (Ever notice that most of the published materials are by folks who haven't played for a good bit? ;-) ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:53:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Traveller? - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Traveller? > Date: Friday, October 25, 1996 12:31 AM > > David wrote: > > >>I suppose you could handle it the same way that Traveller handles > contacts. ;-) << > > which version of Traveller? and how do they handle it? TNE: Traveller New Era. You get contacts (forgive me if I'm confusing this with another game... I use my own house rules and haven't read the books for aeons... Wow, has it been that long? Heh.) during character creation within certain professions based on what career track you follow... I.e. as a marine you may garner contacts in military, intelligence, or the navy (these categories are probably wrong, but oh, well). During play a sticky situation comes up and the PCs panic, shouting, "Hey!!! I've got two intelligence contacts! I want one of them to be in charge of the local police force. He'll get us out of this!" To which the astute GM will reply, "Sure, let's see. Odds of that, given that you were a marine two SECTORS away, and this world has a starport of, ah, D, well, would be two gazillion to one... We'll call that a 1 on d20. Good 'nuff?" And then after rolling the obligatory 13, will promptly introduce the PCs to the local police commissioner who is NOT a friend of the PCs, and lock them away forever. ;-) The same concept could work, in the rough, for spares. You lay in a stock of spare engine parts (God knows what kind of parts are in an engine... spark plugs?), the equivalent of about 2 wear value points. When the engine breaks down, the GM can roll to determine IF the spares you stockpiled are the correct ones... If not, well, you blew all those cases of grenades for parts that you can't use at the moment. Bummer. If that doesn't make sense, yet, let me know, and I'll try again. ;-) Dave, the cruel heartless bastard. ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 09:59:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: Spares - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Re: Spares > Date: Friday, October 25, 1996 12:31 AM > >>But you're right. GMs and players should be more worried about how > the game goes and not the mechanics.<< > > Well, I guess I'm a "fishook" type of player, I like to know what's in my > pocket, and if I have a toothbrush or not. I am the kind of player who > is totally satisfied when I don't have to fire a shot, game-combat is > great, but I'd rather be concerned about who my character is, where he's > from, how does he feel about this, or that, and particularly WHY he feels > that way. Nothing wrong with that. I tend to be that way as player and a GM. I wish more of my players would keep track of which pocket things are in, which weapon is loaded, and with what ammo, rather than determining that based on need... *sigh* Having some small experience with CQB, I tend to describe and run situations in close detail (I don't get too many counter-sniper situations for some reason ;-), and it becomes very important how the pistol holster is slung, and even which boot the Gerber Mk. II is in... Deja vu. > The driver for the hummer I was in was an E-5. And man did he take care > of that vehicle. I do believe that ours was the only one in the platoon > that didn't get a flat, or break down. Perhaps it was because the > Platoon Sergeant was also riding in it.... *rofl* I think that had a LOT to do with it. > But i was just looking at the Back of the book, where it promised > something it didn't deliver.....and I was wondering how other GMs delt > with it. Spare parts rules you mean? Well, my players tend to just switch vehicles or walk rather than fix them... ;-) Go figure. Dave, the cruel, heartless bastard. ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re: Spares On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Well, I guess I'm a "fishook" type of player, I like to know what's in my > pocket, and if I have a toothbrush or not. I am the kind of player who > is totally satisfied when I don't have to fire a shot, game-combat is > great, but I'd rather be concerned about who my character is, where he's > from, how does he feel about this, or that, and particularly WHY he feels > that way. I'm a "fishhook" type reader but when it comes to RPGing- players tend to be more concerend about weapons effects rather than how many rounds they have... It's pretty tedious for GMs to count up the number of times their players burned off on full auto or used a certain magic spell yadda yadda yadda. Role palying is largely interaction between people, right? One's made up personality versus the other players' characters and the people the gM throws against you, right? > Exactly, my orders ( well the whole company's orders) were that only the > motor pool is to fix flats. Apearantly the nuts on the HMMV's tires get > easily stripped, so that only the motor pool had the right tools (the > reason they gave us anyway), and if we did it we'd strip the nut. So, > needless to say the motor pool had to fix ALOT of flat > tires....................................... Maybe that's why the new armored Heavy Hummer's supposed to have centralized tire inflation;) > The driver for the hummer I was in was an E-5. And man did he take care > of that vehicle. I do believe that ours was the only one in the platoon > that didn't get a flat, or break down. Perhaps it was because the > Platoon Sergeant was also riding in it.... "Though shalt not offend the person with the serious stripes and rockers and the ones who have the authority to make you rake dirt.;)" > But i was just looking at the Back of the book, where it promised > something it didn't deliver.....and I was wondering how other GMs delt > with it. In some sense Twilight offers too much leeway- better for experienced GMers but people should always wonder how skills are used, what penalities or bonuses in maing a skill rule, etc. Mad Mike - ---- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 16:52:04 -0400 Subject: Re: DUMB In a message dated 96-10-25 03:56:46 EDT, you write: >>His players may not have a >>clue about reality and playing for real, What! Huh! You miserable peice of crud. Ok so you might not think he has any sense but to star picking on the peole who play and say they have no clue. You little ant I have more touch in reallitty than you do beacause I have the common sense not to call a person I dont knbow dumb or out of it. You little biget how do you think you can drw a conclusion about a person who has won many many national and state awards for his role playing and GMing. I cant belive you! I really really cant you! How dare you say I have no touch in reallity and to judge me like that. Listen buddy my little pinky proabbaly has more touch in reallatiy than you! Monkey Man ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Re: Spares On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, David Reed wrote: > Nothing wrong with that. I tend to be that way as player and a GM. I > wish more of my players would keep track of which pocket things are in, > which weapon is loaded, and with what ammo, rather than determining that > based on need... *sigh* Having some small experience with CQB, I tend to > describe and run situations in close detail (I don't get too many > counter-sniper situations for some reason ;-), and it becomes very > important how the pistol holster is slung, and even which boot the Gerber > Mk. II is in... Deja vu. Feh. Then it's time to play D&D with my favorite barbarian character with one syllabel speeches and a penchant for getting drunk and swinging a Redwood tree trunk he calls a war club;) > Spare parts rules you mean? Well, my players tend to just switch vehicles > or walk rather than fix them... ;-) Go figure. You know people tend to lose more wheels that way. And walking puts too much wear and tear on a set of Danners. The purpose of civilized mechanized warfare is for the Brad's track commander to scream at the six peons in the back to get their asses out and chase after the badguy grunts (and the grunts hope they'll get fire support) Mad Mike - ----- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #29 ************************************