twilight2000-digest Tuesday, 22 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 027 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Re: Cold War 2. Re: Comments on #23 3. Re: NA Evils 4. Re: MAD & T2K 5. Re: COIN birds? 6. Bad guys 7. Re: NA Evils 8. I have initiative? (among other things...) 9. Re: Bad guys 10. Re: Weapons 11. Re: Comments on #23 12. Re: Off the beaten path 13. Re: Weapons 14. [none] 15. Re: Off the beaten path 16. Bad Guys vs Evil Guys vs Stupid Guys vs Chairborn Ranger Guys 17. Re: No Subject 18. Re: Bad Guys vs Evil Guys vs Stupid Guys vs Chairborn Ranger Guys 19. Re: your mail 20. Re: Weapons 21. Re: Weapons 22. other sites 23. MAPS 24. Re: other sites 25. Re: Weapons 26. SAS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: Cold War >> The USMC had estimates of losing 10,000 ground-pounders in the first WEEKS of the initiation of ground combat (fortunately we were wrong!).<< I was to told to expect 80% casualties. So out of a squad of 10, 2 would survive. And myself being the M-60 gunner........I guess you could say that my mom would've been about $100k richer thatnks to SGLI............................. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: Comments on #23 >>When was the last time any of you service men were handed a "brand new in the box" Claymore, LAW, or M1, that had the handy instruction guide intact<< Hmmm.........................1990 Just before a war.................. (or skirmish or Police Action, or whatever the hell you want to call it, but it sure seemed like a war to me.......) >> (and would have time to read it under fire)<< You don't. You'd read it BEFORE you went into whatever situation where you needed it, But if I've been hit with Sarin or any other Nerve agent, I'd probably be too scared (not to mention pissing, shitting, drooling all over myself while I do the funky chicken) to remember what the hell I was supposed to do with regards to Decontamination, so If I was able to read, It'd be nice to have the instructions right where i needed them. I was just referring to the fact that alot of US military equipment has instructions with/on them............... ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:25:20 EDT Subject: Re: NA Evils >>Come on, tell us, what sort of EVIL stuff?<< OK here goes........ All of this assumes familiarity with Urban Guerilla / Twilight 2000's "official" Florida. The Soviet 1 Mt. MIRV warhead (had 10 .1 Mt warheads targeted for various points in FL) had a couple of the .1 MT which failed to detonate and were "lost". The NAs found one, and used it. It was leaking radiation very slowly, so instead of moving it, they built a "shelter" around it. When the NAs would "relocate" people, Thirds, POWs, etc., they'd march them south to where this "shelter" was, put the people inside of it, and after two days, those who weren't dead were soon enough....... They also used Ft. DeSoto as a military camp, which would sell human organs to South/Central American Agencies. The "donors" would arrive, then a "minor surgery" was conducted, the organ(s) removed, and the Donor properly desposed of. They also like to feed the Thirds, POWs, subjugated people to sharks. whole barges of people were towed out in the gulf, and used as chum. These are just some of the plots I discovered through play, I'm sure there was more I didn't uncover. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: MAD & T2K On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > > I agree. With two superpowers one could count on some kind of discussion. > When the Soviet Union broke up, no one knows who has all the nukes -- some > small group somewhere could have one. Plutonium is being smuggled all the > time -- lots of people have got caught, so I'd be ready to bet that some > have gotten away with it, too. There's definite method, snaity in the maddness called nuclear brinksmanship. Both sides would eventually be forced down to a bargaining table and talk- and both sides know that can destroy the world and there were no others able to. The US had her sphere of influence and the soviet had theirs and both sides got into a big dick contest in the Third World. > I was kinda wondering why everybody all of a sudden started saying the > world is a safer place... Namely because the Cowboy and Cossack Pretend War couldn't go on because the Ivans could no longer play. Sucks;)- we were spending all that money to blow the Godless Russkies away;) > And now the Polish are using the old "no democracy ever started a war" > line too, in their bid to join NATO! Yeah well the Balts, the Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians and the Romanians really like the prospects of the EC and NATO and most favored nation status with the US- EC greater access to markets and trade agreements with the US because of trade and access of technology. And NATO because America has habit of sticking up for its friends. Finally these countries are scared of the Russkie Bear- ever hear some of Zhironovsky's speeches? Funnier than Saturday Night Live and Howard Stern but if he was serious.... Granted the US have to be careful how we treat Russia- Catch 22 Mad Mike - -- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: COIN birds? On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Matti Aistrich wrote: > On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > > > choppers, and COIN birds. > > Excuse my ignorance, but what are COIN birds? Counterinsurgency light attack aircraft. Cheap prop planes loaded up with rockets and machineguns that are cheap enough for Third World Countries to operate in numbers and slow enough to slug it out with Ho Chi Minh's grandkids. Classic examples? Everything from the A-26K Invader and F8F Bearcat to the OV-10 Bronco and the IA58 Pucara and the A-37B "Killer Tweets" (well that's a jet but still....) Mad Mike - -- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:45:46 EDT Subject: Bad guys >>Frankly, the "combat training" you learn from TV is not of much use in the real world. TV rules that do not hold: 1. Bad guys do not stand in the open and shoot at you. 2. Bad guys do not stand in convenient bunches. 3. Bad guys do not stand around when they have you trapped waiting for you to figure a way out. 4. Bad guys have also (like you) heard of "traps", "flanking", "fire support", "contingency plans", etc. And they use them.<<< And you left out #5 Bad Guys, More Often than not, become commisioned officers in leadership positions over you. 6) Bad Guys DO get elected to the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:59:33 -0500 Subject: Re: NA Evils - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: NA Evils > Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 1:25 PM > > >>Come on, tell us, what sort of EVIL stuff?<< > > OK here goes........ Are you sure that you guys weren't playing Dark Conspiracy? The rest has at least some understandable motive (organ profits, disposal of the enemy without using expensive bullets), but the bit about sharks was shear sadism. (I'm assuming that the folks with the nuke are the same ones with the sharks, but if I'm wrong, the sharks make a reasonable substitute for the nuke.) ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:17:12 -0500 Subject: I have initiative? (among other things...) - ---------- > From: Rob Miracle > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Comments on #23 > Date: Friday, October 18, 1996 11:26 AM > Actually, we are quite swamped with our main business, which is developing > online gaming support. I have been barely able to deal with bounces. > Actually reading these mailing lists is something I don't get to do. I get That's what I thought... Webheads/Netaholics/whatever never die... Their OS just locks up. ;-) > Tantalus purchased the rights to the games. We have some plans for the > games, but right now we are in the middle of this big work project which > has everone from the President on down completely occupied. I'll surf MPGN, and Tantalus, if I can find they're site, but I'll ask anyway... Any intimations of what these "plans" are? More "Secrets of the Ancients" type games, or PNP RPGs? Will T. be looking for help in the near future (contract or inhouse)? > have an idea for a MUD or such stuff let me know and I will see what we can > work out. Yeah, you forgot about me, didn't you? Heh. Good thing we're patient fans out here... ;-) INITIATIVE I meant to ask earlier, Rob, what you have against the initiative system a la the "House Rules". What is it that you dislike about it? It's a massive improvement over the "hesitate while I figure out how many hesitations I have left that I have to take, ooops, too many left to fill the remaining phases. Damn." Initiative is probably one of the few things about the combat system that I have only a few gripes about (which could be resolved by rationalizing where "initiative" is derived from... tactical skill, mental quickness, physical celerity, hormonal imbalances, AND/OR, perhaps, deriving it differently for different types of "stress-fire" situations, or different types of action under stress-fire conditions [probably not the all of the same elements which comprise my ability to run under fire as which comprise my ability to stare down the lead-storm and continue firing...). ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Bad guys On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > And you left out #5 > Bad Guys, More Often than not, become commisioned officers in leadership > positions over you. That's called the Peter principle. "Everybody rises to his level of incompetence and stays there." > 6) Bad Guys DO get elected to the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. Incompetent Stainton- not "bad" or "bad" as in evil. To say the current jackass who is occupying the Oval Office is evil and cunning would be insulting Machiavelli to say the least. Unfortunately every so often the people of this country have to elect individuals to high office to represent them and their interests. More often than not- such "leaders" have much to be desired. And with that folks I'll try to leave it at that. Mad Mike - -- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:47:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Weapons Hey sorry to bring up all the mess In was just wondering because it would be neat for characters to use a nuclear device as a threat or something like that if you know wha I talkin about. It was just an idea I would put out there. Master of the flying monkeys. Dont pick on the name! ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 19:48:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Comments on #23 Oh i thought it was TWILIGHT! ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:10:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Off the beaten path I must agree with you, paint ball is not like real guns, Paint ball 'Bang' Och that stung a little. Live rounds "Bang" AHHHHHHHHH my leg! Why me for the love of god why me! Big diffrence eh. Lord all mighty of the winged ones. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:10:29 -0400 Subject: Re: Weapons Thank you ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:06:16 EDT Subject: [none] >>Incompetent Stainton<< You mind explaining this one, pal? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:06:16 EDT Subject: Re: Off the beaten path >>I must agree with you, paint ball is not like real guns, Paint ball 'Bang' Och that stung a little. Live rounds "Bang" AHHHHHHHHH my leg! Why me for the love of god why me!<< exactly ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:06:16 EDT Subject: Bad Guys vs Evil Guys vs Stupid Guys vs Chairborn Ranger Guys >>Incompetent Stainton- not "bad" or "bad" as in evil.<< Incompetent? Whatever. I thought we were talking about Bad not evil, obviously you weren't tuned in to that one. Calling the regular USSR or Polish troops then, Evil guys instead of bad guys is really quite stupid.......but if you want to go ahead and brand someone evil because they serve a different nation and ideology, that's your right, I guess. The guys I ran into 5 years ago were "bad guys" but I don't think that those retched souls were evil. I never did run into their commander, though..... Hey I got an idea for this list! Let's see who HAS to get the last word in on each and every thread! I've got an idea who might win................ ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:41:32 -0400 Subject: Re: No Subject Hey It wasnt me pal. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:49:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Bad Guys vs Evil Guys vs Stupid Guys vs Chairborn Ranger Guys In a message dated 96-10-19 01:13:06 EDT, you write: > >Let's see who HAS to get the last word in on each and every thread! >I've got an idea who might win................ I got the last word I win! Ya! I win you lose haha! Ruler of those winged beasts ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: your mail On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > >>Incompetent Stainton<< > > You mind explaining this one, pal? The President- or the man who currently occupies the Oval Office. Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 14:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Weapons On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > Hey sorry to bring up all the mess In was just wondering because it would be > neat for characters to use a nuclear device as a threat or something like > that if you know wha I talkin about. It was just an idea I would put out > there. You think that a sane GM will let you get away with that? A good GM will always have to remind the players that it's not a good idea to get too big for one's britches. Especially in Twilight. Yes folks there are nukes and yes folks there are chemical weapons. Will the players ever get their grubby hands on let's say a M109A6 Paladin and a full ammo load of GB2 binary rounds? No. Are players ever going to run into let's say a SS21 SRBM with a nuke warhead? No. Why? That gives them God status. Or if they do everybody in the world's going to be gunning for them and no matter how badass the PCs are sooner or later gonna go down like my idols Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when the Bolivian Army met up with those two. A better idea is having PCs trying to grab a nuke or a load of chemical weapons from a local yokel dictator or strongman. Besides isn't a Twilight character badass enough? Think about it. An average American grunt PC's gonna be decked out with a M16 (more often than not with a blopper attached to the handguard), a .45 or 9mm handgun (in case he runs out of ammo), a LAW or three (great for busting bunkers), and either a shotgun or a 9mm submachinegun (for close in work). And what about crew serves? Machineguns, anti-tank missiles, mortars, belt fed automatic grenade launchers, etc. And if there's a pretty large group of PCs a GM generally throws in either a tank or two, Brads, and LAV25s and/or maybe a Hummvee (as a scout/escort vehicle). Granted at this point the other side's just as well equipped and even marauders and Mad Max wannabe bandits are packing RPG7V rocket launchers and reloads. Thus the criticism of Twilight- at some point the game becomes less of a traditional RPG and more along the lines of a wargame. Mad Mike - --- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 14:40:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Weapons In a message dated 96-10-19 17:33:58 EDT, you write: > You think that a sane GM will let you get away with that? A good >GM will always have to remind the players that it's not a good idea to get >too big for one's britches. Especially in Twilight. Iam very sane and would just like to know just in case screwy. No ned to start calling people names or rating there ability to be a Gm just on them wanting to expand there knowledege ok! ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:16:07 EDT Subject: other sites Question: How many other Twilight 2000 web sites, Mailing lists, etc., are out there? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:16:07 EDT Subject: MAPS ok practical question, here does anyone use the DMA maps? If so, what's the current procedure for aquiring them? ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:34:34 -0400 Subject: Re: other sites In a message dated 96-10-21 12:47:33 EDT, you write: >How many other Twilight 2000 web sites, check out heckmac's unofficial TW2k page. It's got variations on combat, links to other sites (including my primitive webpage) and foreign nation character generation. The address is http://members.gnn.com/heckmac/tw2k.htm ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:02:28 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Re: Weapons On Sat, 19 Oct 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > Yes folks there are nukes and yes folks there are chemical > weapons. Will the players ever get their grubby hands on let's say a > M109A6 Paladin and a full ammo load of GB2 binary rounds? No. Are players > ever going to run into let's say a SS21 SRBM with a nuke warhead? No. Why? Yet... > the Bolivian Army met up with those two. A better idea is having PCs > trying to grab a nuke or a load of chemical weapons from a local yokel > dictator or strongman. And at the end of that adventure, what will the PCs have? :-) Unless the GM uses a see-through deus ex machina to get rid of the stuff, of course. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:04:56 EDT Subject: SAS >>I see a whole campaign devoted to a loyal team of SAS/SBS who knew they were going "where angels fear to tread" (or "fools rush in"...), and knew in advance that there would NEVER be any support, reinforcement, or backup.<< The SAS..............these guys are soooo bad, I don't think the T2k rules did them justice. I had done training as OPFOR for our US Special Forces a couple of times, and usually, we wipe them out. But one time they asked for volunteers to be OPFOR for a group (I guess Plt sized) of SAS, so about 1/4 of our company sayed sure. Well, not only were the SAS there , but about 2 squads of US SF were there, and they had separate missions. with 2 teams (6 men) of MPs we wiped out a squad sized (maybe larger) of SF........it got so bad, that one of them, coming around to the rear of our position (where I was) mistook me for a fellow green beret (It was night), and asked me, "How many do we have left?" That's how close he was....... I started to say that i didn't think we had lost anybody (I also mistook him for one of my team members), when I noticed the hand guard on his rifle (silhouted by the pyrotechnics) was an M16A2's.........All of us had M16A1s.........So instead of answering him I pointed my rifle at him and held down the trigger........his miles gear started screaming............................................... Then later that night the SAS hit us.......................... we were told by our higher ups that the "games" would end at 0300 (we had some driving to do the next day)....so at 0330, myself and one other guy are still awake doing a roving sentry even though we should've been asleep. We'd been waiting for them for 2 days, and they hadn't hit us yet, so I said "F@#K it, they're not coming"(I assumed they ran into the SF unit and got wiped out) well not two minutes after I laid down on the ground and put an insect net over me...I i opened my eyes, and there they were, charging up this road, that our vehicles were parked on, blasting everyone (I was the first one hit)......they just ran through the area and killed damn near everyone (we had regrouped and were now at platoon strength)....I think they lost like 3 people......... they were so quiet, and then BOOM there they were and just running up the road spraying everybody, never stopping.................. The SAS earned my repect that day ....... Even though they were LATE, but hey, in real combat, there is no time that the "game" ends..................... Just thought I'd share that, since the amount of posts isn't very large............. and if we want Tantalus to put out (or support) new products, we need to show our interest and support for the game.......................IMO Chris ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #27 ************************************