twilight2000-digest Friday, 18 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 026 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. New America capabilities 2. Spetsnaz at Kalisz 3. MAD & T2K 4. Re: South America: comments from #24 5. Re: New America capabilities 6. [none] 7. Re: South America: comments from #24 8. Re: Off the beaten path 9. Re: MAD & T2K 10. Re: Any refs out there? 11. Re: Weapons 12. Re: Cold War 13. PBeM Turn 6 14. Re: MAD & T2K 15. COIN birds? 16. Re: revisions 17. NA Evils 18. PC betrayal 19. Re: Tipoff 20. Re: interest 21. Re: Comments on #23 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mitch Schwartz Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:11:47 -0400 Subject: New America capabilities Chris says: >>New America gave you constant boogey men in America, the way you had >>Russians in Eastern Europe. > >New America gave you a semi-organized foe to fight, armed with military >weaponry and tactics.... Sorry. As described, these dudes may have had some of the tools... but their training was not prone to providing good tactics. I thought that almost all of the NA folks I saw in the America modules acted like... they had little tactical training. Including in Urban Guerilla. >I suspect the modules only scratched the surface of what they were really >doing, As I said, they were a boogey man you could use to be doing anything you felt like that was evil. Dave says: >(What >was the estimate when I was a kid? The average teen TV watcher received >the equivalent of 23.5 hours of combat training via cartoons and movies >prior to the age of 21? ) Frankly, the "combat training" you learn from TV is not of much use in the real world. TV rules that do not hold: 1. Bad guys do not stand in the open and shoot at you. 2. Bad guys do not stand in convenient bunches. 3. Bad guys do not stand around when they have you trapped waiting for you to figure a way out. 4. Bad guys have also (like you) heard of "traps", "flanking", "fire support", "contingency plans", etc. And they use them. >I haven't read "Airlords...", but how small can blimps be? I used to >drive by Goodyear's hangar here in Houston all the time, and the blimp is >NOT small, and the hangars are huge... It's a matter of comparison. Blimps are usually smaller than 400 ft. The USS Macon-class dirigibles flown by the Navy in the 1930s were longer than 750 ft. The Hindenberg was larger still - about over 900 ft. I'd have to dig out Airlords for measurements, but the airships were small, proof of concept vessels... mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ From: Mitch Schwartz Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:14:24 -0400 Subject: Spetsnaz at Kalisz Chris suggests: >>o "Cruise around the Kalisz area and help clean up these pesky >>little >>groups of survivors" :-) > >Yup, and they'd be dressed like Americans, looking as battered and scared >as anyone they'd encounter. Ah. A very good way to be shot at first before being questioned by the thousands of Polish and Russian troops all over the area. mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ From: Mitch Schwartz Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:19:08 -0400 Subject: MAD & T2K Mad Mike suggests: >But in T2k the deterrent factor >is no longer there... MAD worked, except in T2k. Actually, I'd beg to differ. While there was an exchange, it was limited (devastating enough!). Both sides backed off from a full exchange of ICBMs. That would have made for a very dull campaign background: You travel for a few weeks and then you die form radiation sickness. Part of me misses MAD... but more of me enjoys no longer feeling that the world could end at any moment without warning. mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 12:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: South America: comments from #24 On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mitch Schwartz wrote: > Let's see. The Argies can spend some resources on a war. They can spend > lots of fuel for ships to send troops to take some rocky islands 1,000 miles > away with some sheep on them. Or they can take a chunk of Chile (which they > have tried before, a century or so earlier), taking copper and coal & other > mineral wealth to keep a (semi-)industrial society going. The Falklands are > a wasted effort. That's if the Bwits didn't get off their asses and decide to reinforce the garrison on the Malvinas. Granted the oinly way a another invasion of the falklands can take place in Twilight if there was another military junta running Buenos Aires. Remember after all the fun in the South Atlantic in the Spring of 1982 the people deicded to kick Galiteiri out of power most ricky tick. And probably weren't too happy about the fact the argentine MP/military intelligence apparatus was good at "liquidating" suspected opponents and dissidents and other "anti-social" elements. > Add to the equation that waiting and saving the Falklands until later makes > them easier to take as equipment breaks down (the Argies have factories and > machine shops; the Falks do not.) Still it's a real exercise in logistics in invading turf. Argentina doesn't have anything real in the way of amphibious vessels and but more importatnly air cover- Argentine Mirages just were on short legs and the airfield at Port stanley could only handle puddle jumpers, choppers, and COIN birds. The Limeys even though only armed with a handful of Sea Harriers were able to contest for air superiority- but it was tricky for them. And they largely succeeded by denying argentina the ability to supply and support and reinforce their troops. > Sorry - they're more than a bit busy, and have no axe top grind about > Argentina. You did know that by treaty, we should have sent troops to help > BOTH sides to the Falklands War... Yeah according to GDW both the field agents of the DIA (whatever) and the Company are eyeing each other on who's the boss of what's remaining of the US and more concerned either to A)bring back soldiers to America to support their respective power bases or B)trying to maintain some sort of stability abroad by American grunts still there-namely because they can't go anywhere. Mad Mike - -- Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:42:10 EDT Subject: Re: New America capabilities Mitch Stated: >> I thought that almost all of the NA folks I saw in the America modules acted like... they had little tactical training. Including in Urban Guerilla.<< And you being a player? or referee? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:42:10 EDT Subject: [none] >>It's a matter of comparison. Blimps are usually smaller than 400 ft. The USS Macon-class dirigibles flown by the Navy in the 1930s were longer than 750 ft. The Hindenberg was larger still - about over 900 ft. I'd have to dig out Airlords for measurements, but the airships were small, proof of concept vessels...<<< Actually, Blimps and Dirigibles are two different types of airships. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:42:10 EDT Subject: Re: South America: comments from #24 >>resources extremely tapped anyway who's to say they could retake them? >Let's see. The Argies can spend some resources on a war. They can spend lots of fuel for ships to send troops to take some rocky islands 1,000 miles away with some sheep on them. Or they can take a chunk of Chile (which they have tried before, a century or so earlier), taking copper and coal & other mineral wealth to keep a (semi-)industrial society going. < I should've guessed. >The Falklands are a wasted effort.< Kinda like Vietnam? Afghanistan? Nations always wage military campaigns with total logic without emotions or sentiments involved? ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:53:13 PST Subject: Re: Off the beaten path Absolutely true. Having grown up in EPA, Baldwin Park and San Jose I am familiar with actual combat (Marine Corps notwithstanding), and I am still alive and out of said situation for years now. The first time I played Paint Ball, I got creamed, trying to do things "the real way". My PB deaths are legend in the annals of history ;-) Apples and oranges, but useful for practicing field maneuvers, I guess... - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:37:49 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: > >And I have to stress this one also, You know (i am sure, from your >job) that paintball is a game, and cannot compare to combat. It's >really fun, don't get me wrong, but it isn't even in the same arena. >Even military "war games" aren't the same, although a better >simulation than paintball. > >But i digress (again) and I am sure some armchair general, who's only >read about the subject, will say I am wrong about this >one...........8-) ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 19:03:13 PST Subject: Re: MAD & T2K I miss MAD. Seems outrageous, but frankly, the world we are living in now is a far more dangerous place than ever before, what with places like Iraq being oviously well on the way to having nukes. While we may have stopped them for a while, eventually they will get one. Can you say, "Middle East is glass?" AS well, NK already has at least one nuke... sleep tight! - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:19:08 -0400 Mitch Schwartz writes: >Part of me misses MAD... but more of me enjoys no longer feeling that >the >world could end at any moment without warning. > >mitch >Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far >more >difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting >place. > -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) > >Official: Unofficial: >mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com > >http://world.std.com/~Ted7 > > ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:10:03 PST Subject: Re: Any refs out there? On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Michael S Choi writes: >summer. Granted I shouldn't be cynical of the National Guard- the air >National Guard routinely embarasses the active duty blue suiters >during exercises This is not a hard thing to do... any tailhook flier will tell you that... :) - -JM Semper Fidelis ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:18:36 PST Subject: Re: Weapons All I know is that they produce a 6,000 rad dosage in the blast areea (immediately fatal). As to radius, I could not tell you. That figure is from TW2K, by the way... dunno about reality, though I suspect it's a moot point :-) - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:18:46 -0400 Hruggek@aol.com writes: >Does any one have stats on nuclear missles? > >Ruler of the winged monkeys. > ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:15:49 PST Subject: Re: Cold War Actually the Iraqis at the time had the third largest army in the world, and the forces they had were decidedly larger than our entire armed forces combined. I dunno about 3:1, but certainly larger. The USMC had estimates of losing 10,000 ground-pounders in the first WEEKS of the initiation of ground combat (fortunately we were wrong!). That is the reason for the huge air-war we waged prior to commencing with ground troops. - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Michael S Choi writes: >Funny- from what I've heard raw combat troop strength the US >lead >froces and the Iraqis had parity. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:11:02 PST Subject: PBeM Turn 6 >As you roll forward, the Russian and Larsen continue their conversation... Larsen takes the Mike and calls The Bradley. "Message to follow: They're quite friendly...and their leader wants to chat with us. They got a proposal for us...Train some 200 civilians in some town called Cszestochowa...But let officers in charge decide what to do...over" Stuart keeps his eyes on the ground watching for mines. "Hey..it could be an ambush !!" He says, responding to Larsen's questioning look. Sutton radios: "Bearclaw, any news? A Larsen, we don't wanna stick around here and train them, but an exchange of information would be interesting... Are the 200 in nearby town civilians and these guys acting as their militia?" "No, I think there's more real soldiers, and they want a militia to ease the load, what with all the mauraders around here." replies Larsen. "The leader is called the Duke !" "We don't want to stick around here, so try to discover what we can expect ahead of us, and then we'll start moving again!" says Sutton. "And Bearclaw, as earlier instructed, keep going, if you can, until you can see if they have any backup, vehicles, kidnappees or anything else of interest!" Anna Schleich continues to translate the whole affair to Masaki. Bearclaw, roving forward of your position, finds a large, moderately maintained paved road, lots more food crops, and several more burned-out old farmsteads. Larsen, continuing the conversation with the Russian (whose troops have now come out of hiding and are standing around watching the whole proceedings), radios to Sutton and the others that the gist of his conversation is that the whole area is devastated except for a part of the once-larger town of Cszestochowa, which they have turned into the center of those who remained alive in the region. No firm figures on numbers, though. You are invited to at least come to the town to trade for supplies, and they say that the Duke would offer them a one-shot job in exchange for topping off fule tanks and/or reloading your spent ammo, though he does not know the nature of this "job". At this point, they tell you to just follow a road up ahead (if you wish to go to the town), and follow it, annd they start to turn to leave (heading away from the town). ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:48:59 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Re: MAD & T2K On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Jeremy S Menefee wrote: > I miss MAD. Seems outrageous, but frankly, the world we are living in > now is a far more dangerous place than ever before, what with places like > Iraq being oviously well on the way to having nukes. While we may have > stopped them for a while, eventually they will get one. Can you say, > "Middle East is glass?" AS well, NK already has at least one nuke... > sleep tight! I agree. With two superpowers one could count on some kind of discussion. When the Soviet Union broke up, no one knows who has all the nukes -- some small group somewhere could have one. Plutonium is being smuggled all the time -- lots of people have got caught, so I'd be ready to bet that some have gotten away with it, too. I was kinda wondering why everybody all of a sudden started saying the world is a safer place... And now the Polish are using the old "no democracy ever started a war" line too, in their bid to join NATO! - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:53:18 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: COIN birds? On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Michael S Choi wrote: > choppers, and COIN birds. Excuse my ignorance, but what are COIN birds? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:07:30 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Re: revisions > >I would buy new materials, but I think that two releases of "revised" > >material so far were more than enough to put GDW in it's grave. If we > >could generate some new sourcebooks for DC, I think they might sell 3 > >or 4 > >copies. What we need for T2k is a personal endorsement from Arnold > >Schwarzeneggar(sp?)... Or a Merc:2000 release that covers NYPD Blues. I know the revision that had The Free City of Krakow in it, but what is the second revision they put out? Or do you mean T2K 2.2? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:13:34 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: NA Evils On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > New America gave you a semi-organized foe to fight, armed with military > weaponry and tactics.... > I suspect the modules only scratched the surface of what they were really > doing, as > I was in a game (again with the author of Urban Geurilla) and these guys > did some really EVIL stuff. Obviously not able to be printed....... > Come on, tell us, what sort of EVIL stuff? - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:22:14 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: PC betrayal On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > I even rember a game a freind of mine ran and a PC was a undercover Spetznaz > and he took us all captive. This is kinda off the subject a bit, but I GM'd a James Bond 007 game where one of the PCs had been brainwashed by the KGB. The other PCs were members of MI6 and CIA. He kept dropping hints, but the guys just didn't get it. He picked off the other PCs one by one, and they never caught on. "Yes, we were attacked and unfortunately John was hit pretty bad and caught by the enemy. We better go look for him. I'll go with Mike as one team, you others can be team II." "Yes, we were attacked, and Mike went down. We better go look for him and John. Let's go. Pete, you coming with me?" In the end the player was totally frustrated, because it was just too easy to pick off the other PCs! The other players were also getting a bit tired (we'd been playing for a couple of days already, I guess -- this was a one week game meeting) and this player just happened to be the only one (in addition to myself) with the stamina to actually think anymore. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Matti Aistrich Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:31:17 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Re: Tipoff On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Mitch Schwartz wrote: > Jeremy says: > >So this sister group > >of characters is an even mix of Spetznaz and noncombatants, and the > >now-dead PC Spetznaz is going to be their lead-in to the game. Cat and > >mouse, anyone? > Umm, didn't you just tip off your players? > Yes, he did... now I'll be real careful. But I guessed it was coming anyhow, from Jeremy's previous discussions on wanting a sister group. - --------------------------------------------- : Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich : : only just : : : good enough! : aistrich@kyyppari.hkkk.fi : - --------------------------------------------- - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t--- X- R++ tv+ b+ D++ G e++>+++ h-- y+++ - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ ------------------------------ From: Rob Miracle Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:00:09 -0400 Subject: Re: interest At 12:55 PM 10/13/96 -0500, David Reed wrote: >Christopher R Stainton wrote: >> How many people out there actually play on a regular basis? Including >> people you know, or game with. > >What's "regular"? As frequently as this list gets traffic? 6 >or so, here. At some point, when I get the time, I am going to post something to rec.games.frp.announce to announce the mailing list. That might pick up the number of subscribers and start some threads going. DC (except for the stupid initiative system) is one of my favorite games to play. I don't know how well I could ref it (my forte is Traveller and AD&D in that area), but I do enjoy playing it. We have a ref who will come up with a beautiful campaign idea and 3 or four of us will play, but we only play about 3 sessions and then it stops. I haven't figured out why. Everyone is having fun and seems motivated, it just stops after three or four sessions. >> And how many people would buy new or revised products for this game >line? > >I would buy new materials, but I think that two releases of "revised" >material so far were more than enough to put GDW in it's grave. If we >could generate some new sourcebooks for DC, I think they might sell 3 or 4 >copies. What we need for T2k is a personal endorsement from Arnold >Schwarzeneggar(sp?)... Or a Merc:2000 release that covers NYPD Blues. > >I don't see the current crop of gamers buying into these two stock games. >Give it a couple more years for the cycle to come back around. Tantalus is interested in feedback like this. We are exploring our options on what we can do. One of our Sister Companies (MPG-Net) current projects involves coming up with a "Games Compendium" for each for each game they have online. This Games Compendium is not much more than a list of web related links for each game. I have the pleasure of working on the Minion Hunter collection. Bascially I am relating the game to real life, so from the web page, you can get to information about Area 51 and other ET conspiracy type things, or you can check out what the Nukids (gothic types) are doing. I think this could be pretty cool when it is done. If you are intersted in creating fan supported materials for the games, please feel free to do so. We ask that you include a disclaimer (ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/DISCLAIMER.TANTALUS) in the item. We would also like to see you upload stuff like that to ftp.mpgn.com in their Dark Conspiracy (actually this goes for TW2K and 2300AD as well) area. Rob - -- Rob Miracle Tantalus Inc. Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious ------------------------------ From: Rob Miracle Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:26:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Comments on #23 At 02:28 PM 10/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >> Right, got it about the Computer Software. And are we being ignored? >Is >> this list, and the DC list for that matter, just getting the cold >> shoulder? > >I wouldn't say that. They're being kind enough to host the lists! (Even >if that's just copyright insurance. ;-) What I'll bet is that they're >in-process with a big project of some kind and even Rob's been too busy to >pay any attention to us. Some humans are just not multi-tasking. Heh. > >Anyway, I don't sub to the Traveller lists anymore, since I was severely >peeved about the huge volume of traffic leading up to the release of >T4/MMT/YAT, and GenCon. Any of you guys listen to it? Is Rob active over >there? If not, that lends some support to my hypothesis (unless he's not >with the company anymore, heh! See if that wakes 'im up.). Actually, we are quite swamped with our main business, which is developing online gaming support. I have been barely able to deal with bounces. Actually reading these mailing lists is something I don't get to do. I get about 600 messages a day right now between the 5 mailing lists that we run and the others that I need to be on for work purposes. Thats a lot of mail to go through. I can't tell you the last time I read net news unless I was hunting something specific (and this is sad coming from a net junkie). I bascially don't read TML any more because the traffic is so high. I'm thankful for e-mail filters :-) Tantalus purchased the rights to the games. We have some plans for the games, but right now we are in the middle of this big work project which has everone from the President on down completely occupied. However for the mean time, we are encouraging the game fans to use the mailing lists as a forum to discuss the games and come up with ideas. Create fan generated support files, adventures, etc. Include the disclaimer at ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/DISCLAIMER.TANTALUS and if you don't mind, upload it to ftp.mpgn.com as a central place to distribute it from. If you come up with some stuff that would be better presented from the web, please feel free to contact us and we can probably work something out. If you have an idea for a MUD or such stuff let me know and I will see what we can work out. Rob - -- Rob Miracle Tantalus Inc. Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #26 ************************************