twilight2000-digest Thursday, 17 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 025 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Re: Weapons 2. Assorted Comments 3. Re: Weapons 4. Re: Comments on #23 5. NUKE EM TILL THEY GLOW 6. Chick Spetznaz 7. huh? 8. Re: Comments on #23 9. Weekend Warriors 10. Re: EGS 11. Re: old vs new modules 12. Re: Game Background 13. JM PBeM Turn 5 14. Off the beaten path 15. Maps 16. Re: Off the beaten path 17. South America: comments from #24 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael S Choi Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Weapons On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, David Reed wrote: > Mike! Take a pill. ;-) These big, ugly, nasties were ACTUALLY exchanged > already in T2k... ;-\ People already have those minor defects, and > worse... [And the opposition may NOT have any left, in which case, you > win... Heh.] Nukes are the smoke if you got'em type policy. during the Cold wAr both the Ivans and us were really ticked about proliferation. The Russkies didn't want the Chinese to get the Bomb- but the Chinese did (irking Moscow most royally and thus Strategic Rocket Forces probably had orders from the Politburo to concentrate on the billion and a quarter Chinese- then the 280 million Yankee imperialist capitalists) Twilight's not the game where you wanna be giving characters Scarabs and Spiders and tell 'em "Knock yourself out, Comrade." Or giving US grunts a MLRS track laoded with two ATACMS that happen to have enhanced radiation warheads ("Gee, Sarge I wonder why Corps never gave us the order to target and use these puppies. Hey there's some Ivans left- why not....) You just go around doing crap like that it's not even mad or MAD it's munchkin, it's cheese. And trust me folks if you ever seen MRE cheese spread- you don't. > > But in T2k the deterrent factor > is no longer there, having had them tossed about (although the argument > *could* be made that this would make it less likely for survivors to feel > like using them). What the heck, MAD worked, except in T2k. ;-\ "If > intel sez they ain't gottany, I sez we nukes 'em." [anonymous occifer, now > deceased] I'm not disagreeing with the world of Twilight (I won't get into the background of Second ed Twilight- too damned hokey) is above all else the failure of deterrence. Every state that has access to weapons of mass destruction no longer feel constrained by the prospects of dying en masse. These leaders have made the conscience decision in bringing the word of plutonium to their enemies. Let' see by the year 2000 (and a raging Cold War) who would have nukes? Besides the Commies and us good 'Merkins and various nukes the US gave to the Euro hippies and Bwits the Indians and the Pakis got nukes, South Africa, and Israel. Maybe let's have a nightmare scenario and place nukes in the hands of one or more Arab states (not probable- even the Ivans know that with nuclear weaponry comes real independence and thus changing the relationships that the Soviets have with various client states- or at least countries they sell guns to for cash) or Iran (heaven forbid). A good part of the world turns extra f$%^king crispy and everybody generally gets knocked back in some cases into the age before the Industrial Revolution. Not good when America and Western europe are "decadent exploiting consumer bourgeois pigs" (sorry but you get to hear a lot of Commie dialectic when you're taking a Russkie history class) On an added note to just too take a cheap shot at our Northern neighbors;)- Canada gets nuked. The Ivans don't like the NHL. And hopefully since the US definitely thinks Fidel Castro's a sonuvapimp we turned Havan into radioactive slag courtesy of a squadron of FB-111A from upstate New York l;oaded with SRAMs:). Congradulations I've just described a suck sh$%t world that could fit into Twilight. Mad Mike > > Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! > > What IS this, and why? Watch anime and read manga then you'll understand this Gospel;). Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: GDWGAMES@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:03:54 -0400 Subject: Assorted Comments Re: Autofire We (GDW) never got an autofire system down that satisfied everybody (even within the company, let alone outside). We were still experimenting when the company went under. As for the other combat system combats, we erred on the side of character survival -- some people consider that we slid too much in this direction. Under the final form of the rules (as laid out in 2.2 and fine-honed in TNE) we were satisfied with the results. This assumes that people use the Quick Kill Rule and _all_ the other refinements. If you don't like the lethality of the combat system, use D10s (or D20s) for damage dice. Characters will drop like flies. Christopher R Stainton > On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Mad Mike writes: > > > Personally though I was sort of disappointed that GDW only > >came up with two modules for the Mid East Twilight setting. One was the rDf > >sourcebook and one was that treasure hunting one (aka Indiana Grunt > >Jones or Raiders of the Shah's Ark). GDW didn't explain their Middle East > >conflict? Namely- why did both the US and Soviet Union invade Iran? > >What about Iraq- qhat roles does it play? Or how about the Gulf Arab > >states? > But at the same time, I am sure GDW had to think about sales. Euorpe > and the US would sell to the mass market of new Twilight fans (Loren, > jump in here any time). The Mideast stuff sold about 1/4 what the other stuff did. Customer reaction indicated overwhelmingly that they wanted to play in the USA. THe US modules sold fairly well, but it seems that people were not as gung-ho about playing in their own back yards as they originally thought (either that or our customers were deliberately _lying_ to us). > (I think Frank Frey was a Veitnam Vet.-again, Loren correct me > if I'm wrong) He was. So was Tom Mulkey. >I believe that the Operation Desert Shield Factbook of theirs was on > the NY Times bestseller list It was. several weeks in a row. > Actually Orrin GDW screwed up with regards with the 5th Infantry > Division (Mechanized). According to Air Land Battle and the > operational plans drawn under Reagan We never considered ourself restricted by Reagan-era plans, especially since most of them were created after the game was... Warplans change more often than the hottest new computer chip... > Personally GDW should have used one of the divisions based in > Germany like the 3rd MD, the Big Red One (one brigade), the 8th MD, etc. Frank thought this was too trite. It did get us a _lot_ of letters from serving members of the 5th Mech, including a nice letter from the CG ca 1987... I forget who he was...so many years ago... Michael S Choi asked: > wasn't there one Twilight modules dealing with airships/blimps? Air Lords of the Ozarks. Christopher R Stainton: > Some are GG loaylists, some are Lorraine (his ex-wife) loyalists FWIW, Chris, Lorraine Williams (current president of TSR) was never married to Gary Gygax. Your thinking of Mary, his ex-wife. > One thing I think we're all missing is the fact that the original > Twilight 2000 background was written in the mid 80s. It wasn't written > last year, or the year before, but a decade ago Tell me about it. We continually got complaints from people wanting to know why we didn't take some recent event or weapon into account. My response was usually to quote the publication date at them. > Certain weapons systems and vehicles that were included in the game were > based on prototypes, or a logical assumption of what will happen in the > next 15 or so years. Yep. And that changes more often than warplans. > I find myself constantly saying OK....it doesn't mention "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia-Hergezovenia (sp?), Maybe not, but we were amazingly accurate with our prediction of the borders in "the former Yugoslavia," all things considered. > Well, also something noone has mentioned is that most weapon systems > and equipment (other than small arms) come with easy to read > instructions on the side or in a pouch, etc.....M72 LAW, AT4, > M18A1 Claymore I have it on very good authority that _nobody in their right mind_ allows just anybody to emplace a claymore, especially some putz who hasn't seen once since he fooled around with a fiberglas replica while trying to remember what he read in the soldier's manual of common tasks (or whatever they call it these days). Loren Wiseman ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:28:16 EDT Subject: Re: Weapons >Does any one have stats on nuclear missles? > >Ruler of the winged monkeys. > yeah monkey man, they're big amd they're bad, and can ruin your whole day.. what about stats on Tactical Nuclear weapons....155mm, etc. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:28:16 EDT Subject: Re: Comments on #23 >>T:2300, > >What the! Oh may oh may yes. > >Ruler of the winged monkeys > Traveler 2300, monkey Man. it's kinda like "Space above and Beyond, mixed with alien. I like the story behind it, but the combat made me wonder about whether I wanted to play.................... ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:33:46 EDT Subject: NUKE EM TILL THEY GLOW >> Why in God's name do you want to play with those? Twilight's a role playing game not a strategic war game. I don't even know why GDW put rules about chmical agents- nobody worth his salt wants to use Raid for people when the other side is perfectly willing to strip the paint off your house and give your kids a permenanent orange afro via the Bomb. << Well, perhaps Twilight included chemical weapons data because the Soviet Army used them extensively. In their basic training they use live Chemical agaents, and I'm not taking about CS gas...................... And why not play with those? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:28:16 EDT Subject: Chick Spetznaz The monkey man wrote: >>I even rember a game a freind of mine ran and a PC was a undercover Spetznaz and he took us all captive. <<< Hmm, that must've sucked. what'd you do? >>Another thing that was alwaya bad in teilight was Females, Never trust em there all Spetznaz in disguise, trust me.<< I hear ya. I was in a similar game (maybe the same one) and towards the end, we'd just shoot the women, no waiting around to be taken prisoner., we'd just shoot 'em. well.....after some "interrogation" of course...... I think the DM had a thing about being betrayed by women, maybe that's why ever one we ran into was a bad guy-in disguise. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:28:16 EDT Subject: huh? >>Funny- from what I've heard raw combat troop strength the US lead froces and the Iraqis had parity. That's why the US had to make their plans according- to see whether the friendly air power can keep the enemy dug in and cut off Iraqi lines of communication and supply, to allow the US troops to swoop in from the backdoor undetected and bypassing and destorying a formidable enemy that was entrenched.<< Well at what part of the conflict are you referring to? And where? From where I stood, it looked stacked to their advantage (man for man), but after a month of constant bombing psycological warfare, snatch-and-grabs, these guys (the ones that were still alive) didn't want to mess with anybody (most of them). The air power was used specifically to allow the ground troops the advantage they needed to accomplish their mission. There was no way the US could have done so without the commitment of ground forces. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:39:14 PST Subject: Re: Comments on #23 Sure thing, Mitch. - -JM Semper Fidelis ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 23:28:16 EDT Subject: Weekend Warriors >>>So does that means that in Twilight 2K- America would have to expand the National Guard and reserves. In World War two and Korea more than half of the grunts in the mud were from weekend warrior units.<<< Are we talking Twilight compared to our real world? Or twilight the way it was written? Most of the combat support and combat service support units in Operations Desert Shield and Storm were from the reserve system, and they quite frequently "outshined" their regular Army counterparts. The reason for this is simple....during the Regan decade the enlisted reservists were highly educated men and women (generally) who entered into service for the money it wopuld bring for college. The NCOs and Officers recognized this (again generally speaking) and used their intellegent educated troops accordingly. Now, however, the odds in those troops remaining in the system are not that great. With the cutbacks, the regular Army tries to shifts its soldiers into the reserve system, which, in turn, sharpens the criteria for staying in the system. >>As for the draft- there's gotta be some sort of impetus for it. The volunteer army was the end product of Vietnam even by the late 1990s people still remember Vietnam.<< It also doubtful that many of these "ousted" reservists would volunteer for duty again, know how well their government supports them AFTER they come home from combat. "Nope, nothing wrong with you, son.....Just don't donate blood ever again." "NO Absolutely no US Troops were exposed to Chemical weapons!!!!!!! Well........wait, I may have been mistaken........." Kinda makes me wonder But all these assumptions are based on the real-World Vs. Twilight2000's history. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:18:50 PST Subject: Re: EGS LOL - a very good description for a game I no longer have patience for... :) Also, could you E-mail me and let me know what actually happened? I just heard rumors... - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >>>Ah yes. GG basically wanted to maintain the old "hack-n-slash" >style of play it inherited from it's wargaming forefathers, and the >rest of T$R wanted to spin off into all these role-playing >directions, so they booted GG. AD&D was my first RPG. But what does >EGS actually stand for?<< > >Actually, that's not the way it happened. But this isn't the list to >discuss it. >It's been rehashed too many times. Some are GG loaylists, some are >Lorraine (his ex-wife) >loyalists.................................................. > >Evil Game System = EGS ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:26:06 PST Subject: Re: old vs new modules Well, that would be an awsome scenario, esp. considering the Indian-Pakistani War! I would imagine that Vietnam would be busy at this time grabbing territory from Cambodia and Liaos, as well... that whole region could easily go up in flames! I might consider running a campaign there someday... As to the China/Sov/Korea thing, I agree that barring a total breakdown of society this situation is unlikely. However, with both that region of USSR and all of China effectively being under the control of local warlords (esp. in China) I think a N. Korea that was tied up in S. Korea would only make a tempting target, not a useful buffer. It's only useful as long as both sides are trying to AVOID war, otherwise, both sides would want the region for themselves to deny it to the "enemy". I guess we can agreee to disagree... - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Michael S Choi writes: > > >Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! >Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling >mecha >fan-boy extraordinaire. > > > > Remember North Korea's relation with both the USSR and the >PRC. >Both the Ivans and the Mows generally agree to keep a hands of >approach. >It's too damn useful as a buffer state and the fact since both sides >have >friendly relations with Pyongyang and neither side are all that >thrilled >with the US. The only thing that would ahppen to North Korea is a >complete >cutoff from energy, food, and military hardware and at the same time >lack >of constraints so the North Koreans could hit the South. And at the >same >time niether side are willing to listen to any pleas because both the >China and the USSR are dealing with a multiple front wars. > Me I'd like to see multiple death orgy with China going up >against >India, China going up against Vietnam, and China playing games with >Taiwan. > > > Mad Mike > > ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:32:11 PST Subject: Re: Game Background Yes, the new V2.2 History is here to save the day, with all our favorite bugaboos. The V2.2 was written based on an alternate-timeline, proceeding forward from the day the Spetz boys assaulted the Parliament building and killing Yeltsin. It proceeds from the assumption basically that the hardliners succeeded in their coup attempt, with a statement that there would be no more revising of the alt-history, since everything just builds on the new alt-timeline. - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: > One thing I think we're all missing is the fact that the >original Twilight 2000 background was written in the mid 80s. It >wasn't written last year, or the year before, but a decade ago (some >"newer" players hopefully realize that---but the term "newer" here is >a little antiquated, anyway) Ronald Regan was president, the military >budget was astronomical, the USSR WAS indeed a threat. The background >was just conjecture on the part of some people sitting around saying, >"OK how do you think it'll happen?" (i assume) > Certain weapons systems and vehicles that were included in the game >were based on prototypes, or a logical assumption of what will happen >in the next 15 or so years. It was assumed that the future would >still have the USSR in power, and the military would stay >huge.................................................. >Then Twilight 2000, version 2 came out. With some revised background >material, mainly to explain the CIS's stance. The Persian Gulf was >barely scratched upon (because it hadn't happened in the real world >yet), yet that the biggest military operation since Vietnam. > >The problem with Twilight's History, is that we are now (realworld) in >about the same time as USSR and China start to heat up, and that we >are deploying troops to the middle east......etc., etc., >I find myself constantly saying OK....it doesn't mention "ethnic >cleansing" in Bosnia-Hergezovenia (sp?), and my PCs are asking about >it.............. >Perhaps if we ever see a new Twilight 2000, it will contain all of our >concerns: Europe, Korea, Middle East, etc., etc., > >Hope I made sense and didn't ramble, as I tend to ramble. But hey, >even if I am rambling, at least ther's something on this list, huh? ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:55:24 PST Subject: JM PBeM Turn 5 Turn 5 of my PBeM. Keep in mind please that this is a reprint of all the conversations going during this turn, and as such may seem a little incoherent, I just thought some of you would find all this interesting, esp. as I have not yet been flamed for doing this the last four times. :) - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis You wake up to the awful smell of Ham-N-Eggs MREs. While normally pretty good, this particular MRE has always disagreed with you. "Okay ladies, that's enough beauty sleep! Wake up and smell that lovely Ham and Eggs!" bellows Sutton, who actually looks tired for a change. You wonder how much sleep he actually got last night. "Okay, Colonel, what do you have in mind for us today?" Asks Major Masaki. Jim Sutton: "OK, listen up! We should be on the look out for a group of marauders in the area, especially as we'll be heading in the same direction as they were. If we meet a group which is dragging along a female and especially if their weapons have cartridge catchers attached, feel free to open fire at will unless the situation is dangerous or the female would be harmed." "I have decided to continue on our original course. We will head towards Czestochowa, and stop on the perimeter area somewhere to chow up and move out in another direction, unless we come across someting on the way there. Bearclaw, are you going to scout, or not? Either way, I understand!" continues Sutton. "Okay you know the drill... MOVE OUT!" You move slowly through the woods, staying away from the roads. Every once in a while you find another burned out farm, though they look long-dead, and there are no signs of any survivors. You move on in oppressive silence. As you pass out of the woods just north west of Praszka, you notice a subtle change in the area. There are more birds, and you see a couple of dogs running in tall fields of crops. A group of armed soldiers coming over a rise! They don't seem to see you yet, but you only have a couple of seconds! They are 600 meters away though, and you can't tell their armament or uniform at this distance. You are at about 1/2 tank of fuel, so you are good to go for a while yet. Bearclaw will ditch the motorcyle in the brush along the side of the road and take cover while taking aim on the nearest enemies through his scope. "Orders, Sir?" he asks throgh the radio. "Move carefully and undercover towards the contact. Watch out, they may be heading your way." says Sutton. Larsen grabs his binoculars while Stone aims the ol' 25 cal at them. Larsen reports, "Looks like Bloc soldiers. Big surprise there! They have AK74s and one RPK. Count is eleven... No! Twelve soldiers. Oops, they spotted us!" - and the soldiers disappear from view. "What's your call, Sir?" asks Masaki. "Everybody button up! Offer no good targets to them! Stone, keep the autogun aimed at their direction! No shooting unless fired upon or if someone else opens up! We'll try to get out of this without an incident - -- there's no way of telling if these guys are friendly or not, yet. They're probably still active soldiers, though, so we better keep going at a good pace. If you see a vehicle following us, blow it to bits. And if we get incoming mortar fire, use the Mark-19 to spray their area with fire!", Sutton calmly tells through the radio. Larsen barks in a loud, clear, military voice, "Surrender! You are surrounded!", thinking that this ploy worked once before for him... "What's the plan ?" asks Stuart. "qweroi qwe ofzsdi taflais aselek alalt latl!!!" You cannnot understand the response from the soldiers. Cross stands up, hands up, weapon raised high and walk towards the Russian position ready to go down if shots are fired. "sdisf aioretn aosdif oazirgla?? " Larsen shouts back. "Bearclaw, any aggression you see, shoot their leader first, then get to the others." says Sutton quietly through the radio "Shoot the leader if aggression shown, copy. Then engage others." replies Bearclaw, drawing aim on the speaker (he is the only one who can see the soldiers right now.) "What the hell are they saying?" Asks Masaki to no body in particular. "They are doing some kind of negotiations" relpies Schliech, startling Masaki, who was just sort of talking to himself. 'WOLSDJ aoijtlckvja arisjlxf alrilg lrsialrt..... etc" comes the shout back after Larsen's question. "Wsdlkjf weraf?" replies Larsen "Erm, yeah. Schliech, can you tell what they're saying?" asks Maj. Masaki. "OK, let's talk..." says Sutton. "Roll out, advance to 100 meters of their position On command, you start to roll the vehicles towards the soldiers' position. "Everybody be careful, they might get some ideas about our vehicles. Bearclaw, circle around them and see if they have any vehicles or kidnappees in the vicinity." says Sutton to his radio. As you roll forward, the Russian and Larsen continue their conversation... - --------- End forwarded message ---------- ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:37:49 EDT Subject: Off the beaten path david, >> (We went out as a paintball team with the Guard in Indiana once, a while back, just for fun; the .45s were kept stacked in a cardboard box, and the M16s didn't even have bolts in them [we came to understand why later, when lack of safety consciousness became apparent]<< Ya know I really hate to get into this one, but.......................... why the hell did the National Guard bring their pistols and assault riffles to a paintball game? I hope you brought your backup piece............. And I have to stress this one also, You know (i am sure, from your job) that paintball is a game, and cannot compare to combat. It's really fun, don't get me wrong, but it isn't even in the same arena. Even military "war games" aren't the same, although a better simulation than paintball. But i digress (again) and I am sure some armchair general, who's only read about the subject, will say I am wrong about this one...........8-) ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:20:28 EDT Subject: Maps ok practical question, here does anyone use the DMA maps? If so, what's the current procedure for aquiring them? ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:39:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Off the beaten path - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: Twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Off the beaten path > Date: Thursday, October 17, 1996 12:37 AM I left out the difficulty the platoon I was observing had keeping intervals, even on a beaten path... They were a Guard infantry unit with a communications battalion attached. > Ya know I really hate to get into this one, but.......................... > why the hell did the National Guard bring their pistols and assault > riffles to a paintball game? I hope you brought your backup > piece............. I guess it was really unclear and incoherent, but it was a Guard weekend exercise. We went along as participant-observers with the blessing of the CO. I was given to believe that this is the way they "do business" whenever they have a training weekend. NO they did not come out to a paintball field; we went with them to a local forest owned by one of the sergeants. The fried chicken was good, though, as were the laughs. > And I have to stress this one also, You know (i am sure, from your job) > that paintball is a game, and cannot compare to combat. It's really fun, > don't get me wrong, but it isn't even in the same arena. Even military > "war games" aren't the same, although a better simulation than paintball. I'm not sure I agree that it "isn't the same", but I'll concede that the gear is somewhat different, and only good as a CQB simulation, long range combat being limited by the lousy ballistics. However, I find it interesting that more and more military and police units are training with PB gear, as opposed to the Miles stuff, at least for CQB. Ironmen of California (a highly ranked team) still train with USMC, on contract, as far as I know. I'm not trying to step on any proud reservist's toes, just trying to point out that not every military unit, not even most, are as highly trained as our elite infantry a la the 82nd (got friends there), Rangers, SEALs, or Force Recon. ______________________________________________________________________ David Reed $$ | webmaster@techrefuge.com $$ What do you mean by "it's all politics"? | $$ Are you trying to suggest that there has | All material and ideas $$ EVER been anything else? | are (c) David Reed, 1996 $$ | ------------------------------ From: Mitch Schwartz Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:57:10 -0400 Subject: South America: comments from #24 Chris S says: >>What has anyone got for a South America outlook? >> >>Possibilities include: >>Argentina getting a link to Angolan or Nigerian oil, enough to keep a >>military government going. > >Argentenia (the only nation in the world with a war-time kill with a >harpoon missile delivered from a fighter aircraft[I believe]) would >probably still want those little Falkland Island, and with the UK's >resources extremely tapped anyway who's to say they could retake them? Let's see. The Argies can spend some resources on a war. They can spend lots of fuel for ships to send troops to take some rocky islands 1,000 miles away with some sheep on them. Or they can take a chunk of Chile (which they have tried before, a century or so earlier), taking copper and coal & other mineral wealth to keep a (semi-)industrial society going. The Falklands are a wasted effort. Add to the equation that waiting and saving the Falklands until later makes them easier to take as equipment breaks down (the Argies have factories and machine shops; the Falks do not.) Seems like an easy choice to me. Dave says: >> >Argentina getting a link to Angolan or Nigerian oil, enough to keep a >> >military government going. > >Not sure of the probability of this, given the time frame, but African >politics have always eluded me. Ah, but this isn't political - it's economic. Piece of cake decision: Argy freighter pulls into Luanda or Lagos and says "if you can bring me 10,000 tons of oil in large tanks, I'll unload these finished or electronic goods and/or food." Especially while the northern hemisphere countries are all busy beating each other up and have destroyed their navies (which I always thought was a stupid and unlikely part of the history). Dave on the Falklands: >I see a whole campaign devoted to a loyal team of SAS/SBS who knew they >were going "where angels fear to tread" (or "fools rush in"...), and knew >in advance that there would NEVER be any support, reinforcement, or >backup. Or perhaps (more believably) simply the garrison of UK troopies >becomes a guerrilla unit, hiding from a closer-to-home Argentine army with >an axe to grind. If you wish, but do recall that: o There is not a large "native" population for guerillas to fade into, nor is there all that much territory to hide in. Probably be a bloody, but short campaign. >Support from the US? CIA? Sorry - they're more than a bit busy, and have no axe top grind about Argentina. You did know that by treaty, we should have sent troops to help BOTH sides to the Falklands War... > Local neighbors with no desire to see Argentina succeed at anything? Not that have the strength to project it out several hundred miles into the ocean (and that's off Argentina). >What is/was the strength of the garrison force? Uh, company or two with minor attachments. >Local naval resources? About nil. Hmmm. Maybe playing Brits in the face of a several thousand Argy invasion is your idea of fun... but not mine :-) mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #25 ************************************