twilight2000-digest Wednesday, 16 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 024 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Re: Any refs out there? 2. Re: old vs new modules 3. Cold War 4. Comments on #23 5. Re: Comments on #23 6. Re: Comments on #23 7. Re: Any refs out there? 8. Re: Any refs out there? 9. Re: Cold War 10. Re: interest 11. Re: old vs new modules 12. Re: Any refs out there? 13. Weapons 14. Re: Comments on #23 15. Re: Weapons 16. Re: Weapons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 02:04:27 EDT Subject: Re: Any refs out there? >>> Forces listed under the current SOUTHCOM Operations Plan (OPLAN) are no doubt different than your last message indicated. OPLANs are updated every two years at a minimum, so the Reagan information is considerably outdated. Secondly, Air Land Battle Doctrine has been replaced by Force XXI. Thirdly, 7th ID (Light) and 8th ID (M) were inactivated 4-5 years ago and the 3d ID is now in Ft. Stewart, GA. These changes occurred due to the drawdown and the regimental system. Finally, the drawdown has severely impacted habitual relationships with CINCs<<< The problem (another one) is that using today's real world force structure and troop displacements, we would not be able to fight the war as it appears in Twilight 2000 (all editions). The US has always (since WWII) had a "two theater" outlook, so that we could fight and sustain two wars in two different regions of the world. with our recent cutbacks, there is no way we'd be able to do that. when the game was written we probably could. In 1990 we could, but now? We'd have to implement and enforce the draft big-time to get the kind of troop level described in T2k, and train them, and feed them. Fortunately, we do not need to have that capability, now...but I bet we're gonna regret the descision to have a drastic reduction in US armed forces as opposed to a gradual one. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:15:47 EDT Subject: Re: old vs new modules > Yeah we know BUT can you give us hint what this author laid >out for "his" Twilight 2000 campaign in the Korea? Force deployment. Local >leaders, status of both North Korean (excuse me Democratic People's >Republic of Korea) and South Korean forces, deployment of american >troop strength including what kind of strategic firepower (for example >during..the 80s there was a real plan to either develop an improved version of >the Lance or a new Corps based offensive missile to replace Lance) and >stats for the K1 M1 clone tank, the KIFV armored personnel carrier based off >the FMC AIFV, and the K1/K2 5.56mm assault rifles. You are asking me to recall information that I, as a player, would have had no way of knowing..........It was over 6 years ago, and IMHO Korea was not my place of choice to be in T2k, so my attention span wasn't very long, other than the obcious combat parts............................. > And wasn't there one Twilight modules dealing with >airships/blimps? Yes, Airlords of the Ozarks > First let's see if this company can re-release some of this >old Twilight stuff... Yeah, I'll hold my breath for it. Question: How long has Tantalus "owned" Twilight? Crazy Chris ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:31:27 EDT Subject: Cold War >> and American victory over a similarly sized force in the Persian Gulf<< Huh? The Iraqis outnumbered the US something like 3 to 1..,, But I'll go check my figures. ------------------------------ From: Mitch Schwartz Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:06:48 -0400 Subject: Comments on #23 Chris asks: > I am wondering what else they >shelved, and if Tantalus was aware of it, and do they have any of it. Tantalus is a computer game company. While they have the rights to T2K, DC, C&D, & T:2300, they don't have the inclination. Folks on the 2300 list have been prodding at them - and have usually been ignored. Say, Jeremy - can you avoid resending entire messages with your replies? Especially the long ones - it really adds to the size of the digest, which I don't really need. Jeremy says: >So this sister group >of characters is an even mix of Spetznaz and noncombatants, and the >now-dead PC Spetznaz is going to be their lead-in to the game. Cat and >mouse, anyone? Umm, didn't you just tip off your players? Jeremy says (about the D20 system): >I get your point. I admit that I like having more detailed weapon >skills. After all, those weapons are in many cases *very* different, and >really don't have anything to do with each-other. However, I think that >making all those newly split-off skills into cascade skills would >increase playability, regardless of the certain lack of realism. Cascades would make a lot more sense, if you think of it from a training viewpoint. Infantrymen all receive some training in heavy MGs & tac missiles; I'd suggest that Indirect Fire Artillery & Tank Gunners understand enough about each other's equipment and aiming issues to be cascades... Or make Autogun a cascade of Small Arms & have Tac Missile separate. (I'd suggest that there's a heck of a difference between a Heavy MG and a 120mm tank cannon...) Jeremy discusses about China: >Thus, an outright war between them is absolutely not far-fetched. It has >been in standard military plannings of both nations, well , forever it >seems... though I am given to understand that the Chinese and the >Russians aren't at it anymore due to the change in political structure in >the old Sov. I'd suggest that it has more to do with China wanting to expand her markets, and swinging back toward Russia in the face of stiffer US attitudes (we don't HAVE to be firends with the US, you know!). In T2Kv1 & T2Kv2, the China War is real enough. David Reed says (about alternate starts): >I haven't done it, yet, but South America or the Philipines look >interesting. (I'm kind of sentimentally attached to Kalisz, though.) The Phillipines don't sound that interesting to me, unless you're into a lot of Guerilla. Indonesia might, if you like boats and like fighting pirates (literally). What has anyone got for a South America outlook? Possibilities include: Argentina getting a link to Angolan or Nigerian oil, enough to keep a military government going. Venezuela could have been a target for Soviets out to deprive US of easy oil resources; they could be partially on-line. Brazil, between them, would be in bad shape, with economic and social chaos and size and distances overwhelming the central government. The west coast? Chile has coal & copper aplenty. Argentina could well try to seize them across the Andes..... (Any Harpooners out there? battles in the stormy Cape Horn region, anyone?) Mike says (about Urban Guerilla): > I think I used to have that module. I never did like the New >America concept but as the saying goes war and politics and nuclear >holocaust makes strange bedfellows. New America gave you constant boogey men in America, the way you had Russians in Eastern Europe. > And wasn't there one Twilight modules dealing with >airships/blimps? Yep. One of the New America series included a small airship & ultralights. Chris asks >Did you want to post the move summary on the list like Jeremy? I'd rather he ask for a list of people to email copies to. I'd suggest Jeremy & Jono do the same, and keep members of their respective games off each others lists - unless one party plants a bug on the other... Chris says (talking about Spetsnaz): >Now remember what a Spetznaz really is............ >They were originally designed to be Infiltration experts, adept at >American impersonation. They'd be dropped behind the lines, speaking >english, wearing US uniforms, carrying US gear, and basically gather >Intell or point strike missions, or cause a lot of havoc in the rear. Yep. Now move ahead a few years through T2K. You have these small elite units - and no more transport, nor as much of a support system for the NATO war machine to use them on. They are your most dedicated, politically reliable units, and fight... well, like elite troops. They are divided up among various army & front level commands, carrying out missions of shallow to deep penetration at that level, things like: o "Raid the 5th Div HQ camp; kill as many staff as possible." o "Capture a battalion commander in the US 8th and get his marching orders." o "Destroy the depot 3rd Corps is building up in the center of their cantonment." o "Cruise around the Kalisz area and help clean up these pesky little groups of survivors" :-) Chris says (about Game Background): >Then Twilight 2000, version 2 came out. With some revised background >material, mainly to explain the CIS's stance. An error - since within a year, the CIS fizzled, and the history was again out of line. I think they should have stuck to the original storyline - it made more "sense" while starting out with a good enough improbability that you did not think they were making a political statement... >Perhaps if we ever see a new Twilight 2000, it will contain all of our >concerns: Europe, Korea, Middle East, etc., etc., Were it me, I'd take the original background and start with "What Could Have Been*" and at the asterisk: "But probably would not, and certainly isn't." mitch Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) Official: Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com Ted7@world.std.com http://world.std.com/~Ted7 ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:53:12 EDT Subject: Re: Comments on #23 >Tantalus is a computer game company. >While they have the rights to T2K, DC, C&D, & T:2300, they don't have >the inclination. Folks on the 2300 list have been prodding at them - and >have usually been ignored. Right, got it about the Computer Software. And are we being ignored? Is this list, and the DC list for that matter, just getting the cold shoulder? >> Infantrymen all receive some training in heavy MGs & tac missiles<< Well, also something noone has mentioned is that most weapon systems and equipment (other than small arms) come with easy to read instructions on the side or in a pouch, etc.....M72 LAW, AT4, M18A1 Claymore, M256 Chemical Detector Kit, MREs......etc., etc., >What has anyone got for a South America outlook? > >Possibilities include: >Argentina getting a link to Angolan or Nigerian oil, enough to keep a >military government going. Argentenia (the only nation in the world with a war-time kill with a harpoon missile delivered from a fighter aircraft[I believe]) would probably still want those little Falkland Island, and with the UK's resources extremely tapped anyway who's to say they could retake them? >New America gave you constant boogey men in America, the way you had >Russians in Eastern Europe. New America gave you a semi-organized foe to fight, armed with military weaponry and tactics.... I suspect the modules only scratched the surface of what they were really doing, as I was in a game (again with the author of Urban Geurilla) and these guys did some really EVIL stuff. Obviously not able to be printed....... >Yep. One of the New America series included a small airship & >ultralights. 3 small airships....... >I'd rather he ask for a list of people to email copies to. Add me to it >o "Cruise around the Kalisz area and help clean up these pesky >little >groups of survivors" :-) Yup, and they'd be dressed like Americans, looking as battered and scared as anyone they'd encounter. And if the order came from a GRU official, they might just join a "party" of Americans for possible linkup with more of them. >Chris says (about Game Background): >>Then Twilight 2000, version 2 came out. With some revised background >>material, mainly to explain the CIS's stance. >An error - since within a year, the CIS fizzled, and the history was >again >out of line. You are correct......think of it as an example of how current world situations will constantly upset the history of twilight if we try to relate it to the real world as much as possible. Chris ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:28:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Comments on #23 - ---------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Comments on #23 > Date: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 11:53 AM > Right, got it about the Computer Software. And are we being ignored? Is > this list, and the DC list for that matter, just getting the cold > shoulder? I wouldn't say that. They're being kind enough to host the lists! (Even if that's just copyright insurance. ;-) What I'll bet is that they're in-process with a big project of some kind and even Rob's been too busy to pay any attention to us. Some humans are just not multi-tasking. Heh. Anyway, I don't sub to the Traveller lists anymore, since I was severely peeved about the huge volume of traffic leading up to the release of T4/MMT/YAT, and GenCon. Any of you guys listen to it? Is Rob active over there? If not, that lends some support to my hypothesis (unless he's not with the company anymore, heh! See if that wakes 'im up.). I must say that at least Imperium Games is responsive to their "virtual" player base... P-) > >> Infantrymen all receive some training in heavy MGs & tac missiles<< > > Well, also something noone has mentioned is that most weapon systems and > equipment (other than small arms) come with easy to read instructions on > the side or in a pouch, etc.....M72 LAW, AT4, M18A1 Claymore, M256 > Chemical Detector Kit, MREs......etc., etc., Hmmm. Are we generalizing US military training for everyone else in the world? When was the last time any of you service men were handed a "brand new in the box" Claymore, LAW, or M1, that had the handy instruction guide intact (and would have time to read it under fire)...? Hell, even rental video games can't seem to hold onto their instruction manuals (beware personification), and they get a lot less usage/abusage than the average piece of military equipment. (We went out as a paintball team with the Guard in Indiana once, a while back, just for fun; the .45s were kept stacked in a cardboard box, and the M16s didn't even have bolts in them [we came to understand why later, when lack of safety consciousness became apparent]; nary an instruction manual did we see for the entire weekend. Oh, except for the banglore torpedo, which we read while watching our guard buddies untangle themselves from the concertina wire. ;-). It may well work for the US serviceman, however, it must be "universally" applicable. Aiming a tank-mounted howitzer differs somewhat significantly from aiming a shoulder-fired, tripod-mounted, or event a pintle-mounted MG. Something about vision blocks and a turret. ;-) > >What has anyone got for a South America outlook? > > > >Possibilities include: > >Argentina getting a link to Angolan or Nigerian oil, enough to keep a > >military government going. Not sure of the probability of this, given the time frame, but African politics have always eluded me. > Argentenia (the only nation in the world with a war-time kill with a > harpoon missile delivered from a fighter aircraft[I believe]) would > probably still want those little Falkland Island, and with the UK's > resources extremely tapped anyway who's to say they could retake them? I see a whole campaign devoted to a loyal team of SAS/SBS who knew they were going "where angels fear to tread" (or "fools rush in"...), and knew in advance that there would NEVER be any support, reinforcement, or backup. Or perhaps (more believably) simply the garrison of UK troopies becomes a guerrilla unit, hiding from a closer-to-home Argentine army with an axe to grind. Support from the US? CIA? Local neighbors with no desire to see Argentina succeed at anything? What is/was the strength of the garrison force? Local naval resources? (I'm lazy... If it ain't on the 'net, well, that'd mean I'd have to get up... ;-) > >New America gave you constant boogey men in America, the way you had > >Russians in Eastern Europe. > > New America gave you a semi-organized foe to fight, armed with military > weaponry and tactics.... > I suspect the modules only scratched the surface of what they were really > doing, as > I was in a game (again with the author of Urban Geurilla) and these guys > did some really EVIL stuff. Obviously not able to be printed....... I don't want to even think about it. But given the average American's familiarity with strategy, tactics, and weapons, compared with the rest of the industrialized world, and our gun-culture and heritage, I'd say it could be an ugly frontier just about everywhere. A good argument against disarming the populace... Just in case everything does go to hell. (What was the estimate when I was a kid? The average teen TV watcher received the equivalent of 23.5 hours of combat training via cartoons and movies prior to the age of 21? I remember that bit of useless, and probably erroneous, trivia from somewhere...) > >Yep. One of the New America series included a small airship & > >ultralights. > > 3 small airships....... I haven't read "Airlords...", but how small can blimps be? I used to drive by Goodyear's hangar here in Houston all the time, and the blimp is NOT small, and the hangars are huge... > >I'd rather he ask for a list of people to email copies to. Yes. I'm probably outvoted ;-), but I'm not all that interested. > You are correct......think of it as an example of how current world > situations will constantly upset the history of twilight if we try to > relate it to the real world as much as possible. I concur. Trying to revise the history in light of recent experience was problematic, BUT how marketable to the "new crop" of role-players is a product that seems totally out of date, given what the 6 o'clock news says? This is the problem with any revisionist historical fiction that begins near to the present... But one of the things that attracted me to T2k in the first place was that it was plausible given the current state of affairs (and my weak high school history/geography)... Tom Clancy never seems to issues "revisions", but then his works are largely "present" action, not near future, already part of "history" by the time the news changes. Hmmm... This won't go away. We either throw our future-history far enough into the future (1984, anyone? Heh.) that this is not likely to happen for some time and begin with past and current events (which is what Dark Conspiracy did), backtrack to where we begin our revised-history and make it clear that it's not Nostradomus', and that it's a completely speculative fiction, or we can/should expect revisions to the time line every so often, based on actual events... I liked T2k 1st Edition primarily because I could watch the re-unification of Germany, and say "Uh-oh..." Now if we could get our own cable channel (or even just TV show to start with for "the news") devoted to this revisionist history, and we could daily give the historical spin of the current events, and include our analysis of what this portends for the game-history... Whaddya mean the Big Three already have a line on that?! Oh, yeah, they're always wrong, too. Heh. __________________________ David Reed | webmaster@techrefuge.com | | All material and ideas | are (c) David Reed, 1996 | ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Any refs out there? On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > > Now remember what a Spetznaz really is............(t2000 should've really > covered this one better) > Sure they've got all the combat skills that makes them so great, > but........... You haven't been reading Victor Surunov (or however you spell the guy's name), have you? Remember the idea of elite units- they're small because A)the demands of the soldiers are too damn high and B)there only so many people that can meet the stress of special operations- physically and mentally. More often than not commandos crack up- usually it's seen during the inital training phase- but a lot of people can't deal with the secrecy, etc. > They were originally designed to be Infiltration experts, adept at > American impersonation. They'd be dropped behind the lines, speaking > english, wearing US uniforms, carrying US gear, and basically gather > Intell or point strike missions, or cause a lot of havoc in the rear. A pssible myth. Remember the Soviet Union- there was no offical language. More often than not Russian language skills were ignored due to Soviet policies on different ethnic groups. To preserve various ethnic identities rather than Russify them- political polcies that went back to the days of Vladimir Ilyich himself. More often than Central Asians and Caucausians (not white people but those of the Caucaus states- Gerogian, Armenia, Azerbaijan) draftees had to learn basic Russian in the Red Army. Slavic and Baltic soldiers were better off with their primary and secondary schools stressing Russian literacy. Point? Spetsnaz aren't spies that were sent out to infiltrate various European peace movements or dress up as NATO soldiers to capture or destroy nuclear weapons or "terminate" staffs. Yes they are better than the average Ivan- with more endurance, intelligence, cunning, and a better knowledge of Russian and more flexibility. Still from what's seen and how the Soviets used their Spetsnaz (MVD or KGB- "anti-terrorist" forces) issimilar to how the US uses Rangers or LRRPs. Lonmg range divisional or corps/army based intelligence gatheres that would work closely with other Soviet units. > One of my (realworld) briefings was the "identification" of disguised > enemy in the rear......They also have small cargo planes, made of wood, > and propeller driven....to cut down on both IR and radar signatures, to > deploy these guys............................. Naval Spetsnaz is different. It's believed that the Soviet Navy had troops similar to SEALs or UDTs to try and infiltrate and destroy certain targets on or near the water. Still the Soviets put more effort into the ground forces rather try and build any type of blue water power projection capability. Soviet naval infantry are to support Red Army forces by making short range amphibious assaults covered by friendly air and arty. Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Any refs out there? On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > The problem (another one) is that using today's real world force > structure and troop displacements, we would not be able to fight the war > as it appears in Twilight 2000 (all editions). So does that means that in Twilight 2K- America would have to expand the National Guard and reserves. In World War two and Korea more than half of the grunts in the mud were from weekend warrior units. As for the draft- there's gotta be some sort of impetus for it. The volunteer army was the end product of Vietnam even by the late 1990s people still remember Vietnam. > outlook, so that we could fight and sustain two wars in two different > regions of the world. with our recent cutbacks, there is no way we'd be > able to do that. when the game was written we probably could. In 1990 > we could, but now? As I've said earlier Force 21 is about troop strength and technology not so much about the handbook on how soldiers should fight. It just covers "housekeeping"- how does the US army gets the most bang from the buck and how do they try deal with readiness when there's not enough moeny in the wallets. IMO I think it concentrates too much on the idea of using new or more accurately getting and developing technologies but not enough on the fact about how to fight the next enemy and who to fight. In short the Twilight military would have to resemble the US military of 1989/1990- the highlight years of all the money Reagan plopped down in addition a reserve syystem that would have to have more days of training-not just a weekend a month, and two weeks out of the summer. Granted I shouldn't be cynical of the National Guard- the air National Guard routinely embarasses the active duty blue suiters during exercises and even ground pounders can raise eyebrows. Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 14:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Cold War On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Huh? The Iraqis outnumbered the US something like 3 to 1..,, > But I'll go check my figures. > Funny- from what I've heard raw combat troop strength the US lead froces and the Iraqis had parity. That's why the US had to make their plans according- to see whether the friendly air power can keep the enemy dug in and cut off Iraqi lines of communication and supply, to allow the US troops to swoop in from the backdoor undetected and bypassing and destorying a formidable enemy that was entrenched. In the traditional war of attrition a ten to one advantage is needed when the opponent is firmly in place. Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:59:18 -0400 Subject: Re: interest Can I get in? ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:09:36 -0400 Subject: Re: old vs new modules I like the whole new america thing mad Mike. Its pretty cool because at least i know where stuff is and I can go down to AAA and get good maps at a good scale for free instead of those retarded maps in the modules. Yah know the ones that look like a three year old drew while watching Mr.Rodgers. I dont know jack for crap about Poland and that whole Euro Asia seen. Hruggek ruller of the winged monkeys. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:16:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Any refs out there? In a message dated 96-10-16 01:50:55 EDT, you write: >Now remember what a Spetznaz really is............(t2000 should've really >covered this one better) Well whenever I would play Twilight Spetznaz where the bad guys and the americans where the good guys right. I even rember a game a freind of mine ran and a PC was a undercover Spetznaz and he took us all captive. Another thing that was alwaya bad in teilight was Females, Never trust em there all Spetznaz in disguise, trust me. Ruler of the winged monkeys ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:18:46 -0400 Subject: Weapons Does any one have stats on nuclear missles? Ruler of the winged monkeys. ------------------------------ From: Hruggek@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:22:36 -0400 Subject: Re: Comments on #23 In a message dated 96-10-16 11:12:48 EDT, you write: >T:2300, What the! Oh may oh may yes. Ruler of the winged monkeys ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 17:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Weapons On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > Does any one have stats on nuclear missles? > Why in God's name do you want to play with those? Twilight's a role playing game not a strategic war game. I don't even know why GDW put rules about chmical agents- nobody worth his salt wants to use Raid for people when the other side is perfectly willing to strip the paint off your house and give your kids a permenanent orange afro via the Bomb. Mad Mike Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:00:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Weapons - ---------- > From: Michael S Choi > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Weapons > Date: Wednesday, October 16, 1996 7:08 PM > > On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 Hruggek@aol.com wrote: > > > Does any one have stats on nuclear missles? > > > > Why in God's name do you want to play with those? Twilight's a > role playing game not a strategic war game. I don't even know why GDW put > rules about chmical agents- nobody worth his salt wants to use Raid for > people when the other side is perfectly willing to strip the paint off > your house and give your kids a permenanent orange afro via the Bomb. Mike! Take a pill. ;-) These big, ugly, nasties were ACTUALLY exchanged already in T2k... ;-\ People already have those minor defects, and worse... [And the opposition may NOT have any left, in which case, you win... Heh.] However... I will accept your criticism of the wing-ed monkey-man. Kids these days don't understand the concept of MAD (which BTW, I miss a lot...), having not grown up with it... But in T2k the deterrent factor is no longer there, having had them tossed about (although the argument *could* be made that this would make it less likely for survivors to feel like using them). What the heck, MAD worked, except in T2k. ;-\ "If intel sez they ain't gottany, I sez we nukes 'em." [anonymous occifer, now deceased] > Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! What IS this, and why? I throw my politics in here: "Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?" __________________________ David Reed | webmaster@techrefuge.com | | All material and ideas | are (c) David Reed, 1996 | ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #24 ************************************