twilight2000-digest Wednesday, 16 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 023 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Re: Any refs out there? 2. Re: old vs new modules 3. Re: old vs new modules 4. Re: old vs new modules 5. Re: interest 6. Re: EGS 7. Re: Any refs out there? 8. Re: Any refs out there? 9. Re: D20 10. Re: old vs new modules 11. Re: Any refs out there? 12. Re: old vs new modules 13. Re: old vs new modules 14. Re: interest 15. Re: old vs new modules 16. Re: old vs new modules 17. Re: Any refs out there? 18. Re: EGS 19. Re: Any refs out there? 20. Re: Any refs out there? 21. Re: old vs new modules 22. Game Background ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael S Choi Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:42:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Any refs out there? Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > Any PBeM refs out there besides jeremy and myself? I'd like to trade stories > and ideas if possible. Anyone have a unique starting point for the PC's > besides the boring standard "Death of a Division" (sorry jeremy). I had my > guys start out in a prison camp along the Russo-Polish border. Lets hear > what everybody else has done. > Actually Orrin GDW screwed up with regards with the 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized). According to Air Land Battle and the operational plans drawn under Reagan- the 5th would be the only mechanized division to be used in Central America. That's why during the 1989 Panama Invasion elements of the 5th Division were still equipped with M113s. Granted things change but Southcom has dibs on West Coast Marines, the 7th LID, the 82nd Airborne, Rangers etc. Granted a lot of these units are also assigned to the Rapid Deployment Force and slated for Central Command. Personally GDW should have used one of the divisions based in Germany like the 3rd MD, the Big Red One (one brigade), the 8th MD, etc. Mad Mike ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:26:14 EDT Subject: Re: old vs new modules >>BTW, any chance we could get a sneak peek at what would have been the 2nd Korean War Handbook?<< Look, for everyone's information, the "korean" sourcebook was never released by GDW, and I am not sure what stage of production it finished. It was quite a few years ago (at least 5 or 6) that I playtested, at a con, a module that the Author (of the "Korean" sourcebook) was running. GDW also had another module of his on the Shelf. "Warriors of the Everglades". It was the sequel to "Urban Guerilla", and took the PCs on a variety of adventures throughout south and central FL. GDW shelved that one too, I believe. I am wondering what else they shelved, and if Tantalus was aware of it, and do they have any of it. Obviously if Tantalus hasn't heard of the Dark Conspiracy, 2nd Edition (advertised in challenge to come out in 1993, the "Korean" sourcebook hasn't even been dreamt of by Tantalus. I am wondering when Tantalus will start to release RPG material for the games it now owns........ Chris ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:24:38 -0400 Subject: Re: old vs new modules actually Chris, about the Korean source book, I was hoping you'd have some material on it that you'd be willing to share... ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:39:51 -0400 Subject: Re: old vs new modules If you go by TW2k version 2.2's altered history, the two Koreas have been reunited. They go to the aid of the Chinese when war breaks out, and suffer accordingly at the hands of the Russians. I guess that opens up a whole new can of worms, but for game's sake thats what I use. ------------------------------ From: WyoDiver@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:15:02 -0400 Subject: Re: interest I play with a group of 6-8 in an e-mail game. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:12:31 PST Subject: Re: EGS Ah yes. GG basically wanted to maintain the old "hack-n-slash" style of play it inherited from it's wargaming forefathers, and the rest of T$R wanted to spin off into all these role-playing directions, so they booted GG. AD&D was my first RPG. But what does EGS actually stand for? - -JM Semper Fi On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:12:00 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >>>Unrelated question; what is "EGS"? Have I been out of the RPG >market that long? :-/<< > >EGS, a fantasy role playing game where one plays wizards, gnomes, >warriors, elves, Paladins, Priests, etc. >Made by T$R, which was formerly known as TSR, and EGS formerly known >as AD&D. All of these changes occured, of course, after the Guru and >father of all RPGs, Gary Gygax was forced out of a company he founded >and led.......but I digress, and my opinion might be clouded a little, >but I doubt it 8-). > ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:33:10 PST Subject: Re: Any refs out there? Yep. I have a sister-PBeM going of Pact forces, being run by Jono who kindly agreed to run it. So now both our games are sort of a cooperative effort. Anyway, the point is, my group killed a Ruskie a while back who was a PC. This character thought the main group were American marauders and sniped them. Dumb, but hey. So this sister group of characters is an even mix of Spetznaz and noncombatants, and the now-dead PC Spetznaz is going to be their lead-in to the game. Cat and mouse, anyone? - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:22:28 -0400 OrrinLadd@aol.com writes: >Any PBeM refs out there besides jeremy and myself? I'd like to trade >stories >and ideas if possible. Anyone have a unique starting point for the >PC's >besides the boring standard "Death of a Division" (sorry jeremy). I >had my >guys start out in a prison camp along the Russo-Polish border. Lets >hear >what everybody else has done. > ------------------------------ From: WyoDiver@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:42:18 -0400 Subject: Re: Any refs out there? In response to uchoim00@mcl.ucsb.edu (Michael S Choi) note posted on 15 Oct 96: Forces listed under the current SOUTHCOM Operations Plan (OPLAN) are no doubt different than your last message indicated. OPLANs are updated every two years at a minimum, so the Reagan information is considerably outdated. Secondly, Air Land Battle Doctrine has been replaced by Force XXI. Thirdly, 7th ID (Light) and 8th ID (M) were inactivated 4-5 years ago and the 3d ID is now in Ft. Stewart, GA. These changes occurred due to the drawdown and the regimental system. Finally, the drawdown has severely impacted habitual relationships with CINCs. The 82d Airborne and the Ranger Regiment probably have contigency plans to support operations anywhere in the world. For a specific region to believe that XVIII Airborne Corps and USSOCOM units will necessarily respond to that region's call is unrealistic, unless it is a major crisis and the requirement calls for the Rangers or 82d specifically. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:10:08 PST Subject: Re: D20 I get your point. I admit that I like having more detailed weapon skills. After all, those weapons are in many cases *very* different, and really don't have anything to do with each-other. However, I think that making all those newly split-off skills into cascade skills would increase playability, regardless of the certain lack of realism. Hmmm... maybe I'll incorporate that into my PBeM somehow... - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:10:44 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >>> True. I like the D20 system a lot, though. Other than that, I >guess I just blew the only reason for you to go buy the new version ! >:-)<<< > >Already use the D20 system. I thought the skills for 2.2 were >"pushing" mw toward Traveler TNE. This "house" system totally broke >down when they made Traveler (my 1st RPG played-1980) into a twilight >spinoff. IMHO. I have had veteran T2k players say, "hey, what the >hell is this autogun skill? What happened to heavy weapons, or Large >Caliber Gun? And Tac Missile.....what the........" >you get my point. ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:27:50 PST Subject: Re: old vs new modules I head it that from the falling out in the 50's (yes, over ideological differences), up until Afghanistan bogged down (coincidence?), the Russians and the Chinese had constant minor border conflicts, on a very limited scale, but the contstant worry was that it would grow. Thus, an outright war between them is absolutely not far-fetched. It has been in standard military plannings of both nations, well , forever it seems... though I am given to understand that the Chinese and the Russians aren't at it anymore due to the change in political structure in the old Sov. Anyone have something more concrete? - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:13:56 -0400 OrrinLadd@aol.com writes: >just a small note on the China-Russia thing. Back in the '60s Russia >and >China did engage in actually combat. It was a border dispute along >the Amur >River, not really well documented, possibly because of US >preoccupation with >Vietnam, maybe also because both nations were closed to Westerners. >I'm not >sure of the actual dates, but I know it happened. > >Also, even though both nations are Communist, they had a particularly >bad >falling out in the 1950's over ideological interpretations, I believe. > They're certainly not on friendly terms, so a new confrontation >would be >possible. > ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:47:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Any refs out there? - ---------- > From: OrrinLadd@aol.com > To: twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: Any refs out there? > Date: Tuesday, October 15, 1996 2:22 PM > > Any PBeM refs out there besides jeremy and myself? I'd like to trade stories > and ideas if possible. Anyone have a unique starting point for the PC's > besides the boring standard "Death of a Division" (sorry jeremy). I had my > guys start out in a prison camp along the Russo-Polish border. Lets hear > what everybody else has done. I like the prison camp idea. I think I'll kidnap it. ;-) I haven't done it, yet, but South America or the Philipines look interesting. (I'm kind of sentimentally attached to Kalisz, though.) ________________________ David Reed webmaster@techrefuge.com ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 17:38:37 PST Subject: Re: old vs new modules I don't know... the Chinese have ALWAYS moved into Korea whenever it was threatened. I fail to see how the Chinese would then just allow NK to swing back and forth... they would secure their flank, if nothing else. And I can totally see how the Russians would use it for a left-hook, Chinese move in to secure that flank, NKs get ticked off... A commie/commie conflict could easily infect NK, along with most of the other mutually-accessible areas of Europe. - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Michael S Choi writes: > > >Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! >Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling >mecha >fan-boy extraordinaire. > >On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > >> just a small note on the China-Russia thing. Back in the '60s >Russia and >> China did engage in actually combat. It was a border dispute along >the Amur >> River, not really well documented, possibly because of US >preoccupation with >> Vietnam, maybe also because both nations were closed to Westerners. >I'm not >> sure of the actual dates, but I know it happened. > > The Damansky Island incident. The Chinese decided to pay the >KGB Border Guards a lesson. In turn the Ivans had to send a motorized >rifles regiment to punish Mow Cow Dung's forces > Nobody in his right mind is denying had the Cold war continued >the >Chinese and Russkies would eventually trade blow for blow. the problem >here is would either one of them would try to invade North Korea. the >answer's no. NK is a great buffer state having the ability to balance >both >Beijing and moscow and at the same time get military and economic >support >from both powers. In short a feasible Twilight situation would be a >Sino-Soviet war with a Second Korean War but both the Soviets and the >Chinese would back off and let Pyongyang do their own thing. North >Korea >isn't under the "enemy of my enemy" policy. US forces would try to >preserve South Korea- not using a base for offensive operations >against >the Red Army or the PLA. > > > Mad Mike > > ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: old vs new modules Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Look, for everyone's information, the "korean" sourcebook was never > released by GDW, and I am not sure what stage of production it finished. Yeah we know BUT can you give us hint what this author laid out for "his" Twilight 2000 campaign in the Korea? Force deployment. Local leaders, status of both North Korean (excuse me Democratic People's Republic of Korea) and South Korean forces, deployment of american troop strength including what kind of strategic firepower (for example during the 80s there was a real plan to either develop an improved version of the Lance or a new Corps based offensive missile to replace Lance) and stats for the K1 M1 clone tank, the KIFV armored personnel carrier based off the FMC AIFV, and the K1/K2 5.56mm assault rifles. > > GDW also had another module of his on the Shelf. "Warriors of the > Everglades". It was the sequel to "Urban Guerilla", and took the PCs on > a variety of adventures throughout south and central FL. I think I used to have that module. I never did like the New America concept but as the saying goes war and politics and nuclear holocaust makes strange bedfellows. And wasn't there one Twilight modules dealing with airships/blimps? > I am wondering when Tantalus will start to release RPG material for the > games it now owns........ First let's see if this company can re-release some of this old Twilight stuff... Mad Mike ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: interest On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:15:02 -0400 WyoDiver@aol.com writes: > I play with a group of 6-8 in an e-mail game. > Did you want to post the move summary on the list like Jeremy? ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: old vs new modules >> commie/commie conflict could easily infect NK, along with most of the other mutually-accessible areas of Europe. << what a beautiful idea. Let them kill each other and stop sending American boys to be killed. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: old vs new modules >>actually Chris, about the Korean source book, I was hoping you'd have some material on it that you'd be willing to share...<< I wish I had some. I especially wish I had some info on the "Warriors of the Everglades", since I am in FL, and all................................. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: Any refs out there? >>The 82d Airborne and the Ranger Regiment probably have contigency plans to support operations anywhere in the world. << The 82nd has 3 Infantry Brigades. 1 is on 24 hr standy- always- able to be on a plane in 24 hrs notice. The rangers probably have the same capability (although I don't really know, myself never having been a Ranger). ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: EGS >>Ah yes. GG basically wanted to maintain the old "hack-n-slash" style of play it inherited from it's wargaming forefathers, and the rest of T$R wanted to spin off into all these role-playing directions, so they booted GG. AD&D was my first RPG. But what does EGS actually stand for?<< Actually, that's not the way it happened. But this isn't the list to discuss it. It's been rehashed too many times. Some are GG loaylists, some are Lorraine (his ex-wife) loyalists.................................................. Evil Game System = EGS ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Any refs out there? Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 WyoDiver@aol.com wrote: > > Forces listed under the current SOUTHCOM Operations Plan (OPLAN) are no > doubt different than your last message indicated. OPLANs are updated every > two years at a minimum, so the Reagan information is considerably outdated. Yes but remember THE COLD WAR. I liked old first ed's Twilight because it was a speculation of what would happen if the current hostilties between if the US and the Soviets continued. Both sides were spending massive amounts of money on their own forces and doing their damndest to contain each other and embarass each other whenever they can. Imagine a continuation of the various shennanigans in Latin America where Ortega and Castro thumbing their nose at America and FMLN in El Salvador and the Guerilla Army of the Poor in Guatemala were still trying to overthrow US proxy states. Imgaine Africa with South Africa every so often rolls through Angola and Mozambique and plays lethal games with the local yokel Reds and Castro's "advisers" and "volunteers". Where China and the Soviet are slugging it out and North Korea is free to do whatever it likes and the Soviet Naval Infantry and VDV division hit Hokkaido (aka Rising Sun Dawn). Then there's the Middle East- and both superpowers are confused on what to do but let's say there's a twin conquest of Iran where the soviets come in from the North and the uS fights from the South and the Iraqis try to maintain whatever they gained during the Iran-Iraq War. And Syria versus Israel. Khaddafy Duck id going daffy, etc. A real headache I just described and the prescription would usually be to swallow the muzzle of a .38 snub;) > Secondly, Air Land Battle Doctrine has been replaced by Force XXI. Thirdly, > 7th ID (Light) and 8th ID (M) were inactivated 4-5 years ago and the 3d ID is > now in Ft. Stewart, GA. Force 21 is the end product of two events. The fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Soviet Union and American victory over a similarly sized force in the Persian Gulf. Remember people generally maintain an army that they're only willing to pay for- and soldiers have to make do with what money they get and plan according to how much gold is in their coffers. Granted I'm being cynical to say the least. Besides Force 21 isn't so much a tactical handbook but rather on what the Army will look like in the early 21st Century. The lessons of Air Land Battle still apply. Flexibility, good intelligencve, superior mobility and firepower, and superior training. And above all else competent leadership. Besides the regimental system (or what passes for it in the US) but "ready" or "roundout" brigades have been axed and Army Reserve combat units get transferred to the National guard and support units get stuffed into the Army Reserve. And weekend warriors have been on the chopping block more often than their active duty counterparts. > The 82d Airborne and the Ranger Regiment probably > have contigency plans to support operations anywhere in the world. For a > specific region to believe that XVIII Airborne Corps and USSOCOM units will > necessarily respond to that region's call is unrealistic, unless it is a > major crisis and the requirement calls for the Rangers or 82d specifically. Yes and no. Fleixibility is the key and most rapid deployment units are covetted heavily by various regional commands. But bear in mind in a situation in Twilight where there's not just two wars but four, five or six conflicts that involve the US there's going to a be a conflict on who gets sent where and why and everybody wants these units to fight and survive.. Hence with Europe a lot of prepositioned gear along with REFORGER will exclude most light infantry units out. In CENTCOM- there will be the conflict with 7th Army/NATO for heavy units. And for Central America and Korea- 8th Army and SOUTHCOM at Fort Amador in Panama will be screaming for foot grunts and Marines because the terrain and the type of forces they'll be dealing with. Mad Mike ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Re: Any refs out there? >>So this sister group of characters is an even mix of Spetznaz and noncombatants, and the now-dead PC Spetznaz is going to be their lead-in to the game. Cat and mouse, anyone? << Now remember what a Spetznaz really is............(t2000 should've really covered this one better) Sure they've got all the combat skills that makes them so great, but........... They were originally designed to be Infiltration experts, adept at American impersonation. They'd be dropped behind the lines, speaking english, wearing US uniforms, carrying US gear, and basically gather Intell or point strike missions, or cause a lot of havoc in the rear. One of my (realworld) briefings was the "identification" of disguised enemy in the rear......They also have small cargo planes, made of wood, and propeller driven....to cut down on both IR and radar signatures, to deploy these guys............................. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 22:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: old vs new modules Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Jeremy S Menefee wrote: > I don't know... the Chinese have ALWAYS moved into Korea whenever it was > threatened. I fail to see how the Chinese would then just allow NK to > swing back and forth... they would secure their flank, if nothing else. > And I can totally see how the Russians would use it for a left-hook, > Chinese move in to secure that flank, NKs get ticked off... A > commie/commie conflict could easily infect NK, along with most of the > other mutually-accessible areas of Europe. Remember North Korea's relation with both the USSR and the PRC. Both the Ivans and the Mows generally agree to keep a hands of approach. It's too damn useful as a buffer state and the fact since both sides have friendly relations with Pyongyang and neither side are all that thrilled with the US. The only thing that would ahppen to North Korea is a complete cutoff from energy, food, and military hardware and at the same time lack of constraints so the North Koreans could hit the South. And at the same time niether side are willing to listen to any pleas because both the China and the USSR are dealing with a multiple front wars. Me I'd like to see multiple death orgy with China going up against India, China going up against Vietnam, and China playing games with Taiwan. Mad Mike ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 01:12:55 EDT Subject: Game Background One thing I think we're all missing is the fact that the original Twilight 2000 background was written in the mid 80s. It wasn't written last year, or the year before, but a decade ago (some "newer" players hopefully realize that---but the term "newer" here is a little antiquated, anyway) Ronald Regan was president, the military budget was astronomical, the USSR WAS indeed a threat. The background was just conjecture on the part of some people sitting around saying, "OK how do you think it'll happen?" (i assume) Certain weapons systems and vehicles that were included in the game were based on prototypes, or a logical assumption of what will happen in the next 15 or so years. It was assumed that the future would still have the USSR in power, and the military would stay huge.................................................. Then Twilight 2000, version 2 came out. With some revised background material, mainly to explain the CIS's stance. The Persian Gulf was barely scratched upon (because it hadn't happened in the real world yet), yet that the biggest military operation since Vietnam. The problem with Twilight's History, is that we are now (realworld) in about the same time as USSR and China start to heat up, and that we are deploying troops to the middle east......etc., etc., I find myself constantly saying OK....it doesn't mention "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia-Hergezovenia (sp?), and my PCs are asking about it.............. Perhaps if we ever see a new Twilight 2000, it will contain all of our concerns: Europe, Korea, Middle East, etc., etc., Hope I made sense and didn't ramble, as I tend to ramble. But hey, even if I am rambling, at least ther's something on this list, huh? ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #23 ************************************