twilight2000-digest Tuesday, 15 October 1996 Volume 1996 : Number 022 The following topics are covered in this digest: 1. Realistic, or not realistic, that is the question. 2. ME? 3. Re: ME? 4. Re: old vs new modules 5. Re: old vs new modules 6. Re: ME? 7. Re: Power Gaming 8. Re: Money.....It's a gas..... 9. Re: Realistic, or not realistic, that is the question. 10. Re: old vs new modules 11. Re: old vs new modules 12. EGS 13. D20 14. Re: old vs new modules 15. Re: old vs new modules 16. Any refs out there? 17. Re: old vs new modules ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anthony Schmidt Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:19:16 -0500 Subject: Realistic, or not realistic, that is the question. - ---------- > From: Anthony Schmidt > To: Twilight2000@MPG.com > Subject: Realistic, or not realistic, that is the question. > Date: Sunday, October 13, 1996 4:17 PM > > One thing I noticed about t2000, and most GDW games, that differs from ME > or more modern Techno/whatever games is that in T2000 or DC you can go > into a combat situation more confident that one or two hits won't kill the > character you've put hours of hard work into (sorry Jeremy). Let's face > it, if the rules made it easier to bite it in a combat situation, > characters would not last very long. In a war like in T2000, every > character is going to take one for the queen, or Uncle Sam sooner or later > (usually sooner and often). I know that if I didn't get shot at least > once per game session in T2000, I didn't feel like I had accomplished > anything. I think sometimes the total realism factor has to be bent a > little bit to allow a player to get attached to a character for at least a > few sessions. If you want to kill PC's quick and effectively, just throw > grenades. A M2HB works pretty well too. OUCH! > > For a more realistic approach to combat, Millenium's End is about the best > I've seen, no large scale wars involved, but the combat rules are > excellent. > > ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:23:49 EDT Subject: ME? Sorry to ask this one, what is Millenium's end? What's the story behind it? How much supplemental material has been released for it? And how much does it cost us poor folk? ------------------------------ From: "David Reed" Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 16:11:39 -0500 Subject: Re: ME? - --------- > From: Christopher R Stainton > To: Twilight2000@MPGN.COM > Subject: ME? > Date: Monday, October 14, 1996 1:23 PM > > Sorry to ask this one, > what is Millenium's end? http://www.blackeagle.com/ > What's the story behind it? Technothriller. a la Tom Clancy. _Rising_Sun_ _Heat_ _Black_Moon_Rising_ _Resevoir_Dogs_ (I'm missing some of the big 'uns. Oh, well.) Investigation, executive security, mercenary ops, espionage, terrorism. A la the world of _Strange_Days_, 1999, the eve of the millennia, with all the worst news nightmares of the 1990s come true. > How much supplemental material has been released for it? Miami Sourcebook. GM's Handbook. UltraModern Firearms. Nightwalker/The Villee Affair. Operative's Handbook v1.0. (I'm forgetting something...) Tony and I are working on a complete revision and expansion of the poor excuse for a first edition operative's handbook. We've shipped sample materials and an outline. As soon as we get the green we'll flesh out the outline and launch. EST is March. Charles also has a bunch of other stuff in the works. CEE is very up-and-coming, just a bit behind on production (all my fault so far...). But now that Charles seems willing to contract out more and more of the development, I think we can pick things up and run with it. (Mebbe even quit my day job. ;-) > And how much does it cost us poor folk? The usual $20. ;-) Doesn't everything cost atleast that much? ______________________________________________________ David Reed Armed with PGP ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:54:47 PST Subject: Re: old vs new modules On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Michael S Choi writes: > > >Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! >Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling >mecha >fan-boy extraordinaire. > >On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Jeremy S Menefee wrote: > >> I frankly liked the Krakow module, and the Black Madonna. Modules >should >> (IMHO) simply be frameworks for GMs to work in. A creative >kick-start, >> if you will :). I never bought any of the modules after Going Home >and >> Ruins of Warsaw, as I had my own ideas. These earlliest of modules >could >> be considered regional sourcebooks, one detailing Silesia, and the >other >> detailing the city-state of Krakow. These are really the only type >of >> modules the new company should produce (assuming they ever get it >going >> again), though I am going to try to buy all the old modules I can >(using >> them simply as ideas, and modifying them heavily). > > Personally though I was sort of disappointed that GDW only >came up >with two modules for the Mid East Twilight setting. One was the rDf >sourcebook and one was that treasure hunting one (aka Indiana Grunt >Jones >or Raiders of the Shah's Ark). GDW didn't explain their Middle East >conflict? Namely- why did both the US and Soviet Union invade Iran? >What >about Iraq- qhat roles does it play? Or how about the Gulf Arab >states? >And then there's Israel and the Arab Levantine states and Jordan and >Turkey? How do they fit in the Brave New World. > Remember that during the Cold War it was impossible for either >side to display a clear dominance in that region. The USSR supplied >Syria, >Iraq, Libya, and et al due mainly to conter US influence with the Gulf >states and Israel but more importatnly Middle Eastern amrs sales >provided >the Soviet Union with hard currency. The US has lost the Shah's Iran >and >found they couldn't maintain that type of relationship with the >patrimonial monarchies in the Gulf region and more often than not the >Israels regularly embarass Uncle Sam and the US is often hard pressed >trying to balance the need for oil with the need to maintain a >relationship with the Jewish state. > And then there's Korea. North Korea has poltical savy. able to >play off China and the USSR all throughout the Cold War and at the >same to >reap benefits from both sides. Then again both China and theSoviet >Union >were Communist states and had no reason to love the US. So the idea of >a >Chinese invasion of Korea (under the auspices of linking up with >American >forces doesn't wash). The Chinese sent a million man army to fight the > >American led UN forces in 1950- remember. Granted with both China and >the >USSR at war with each other North Korea could have launched its own >campaign on the South- thus the 25th Infantry Div (Light), 7th >Infantry >Div (Light), 3rd MEF, and the 9th Infantry Div (Light) would join in >to >stop the NKs. > GDW seemed to concentrate exclusively on Post-Holocaust >America >starting with New York and Texas and then to the Midwest figuring >everything from Mexican Army invaders to a Neo-Nazi organization bent >on >creating their version of America out of the ashes. I never did get to >see >the Return to Europe trilogy and if there's a set out there somewhere >i'm >willing to fork over the bucks. > Still I did like the concept of using a 688 attack boat as a >platform for SEAL type raids- granted I would have used a Sturgeon >myself. > ... Anyway, the whole "China Linkup" is not so out of the question given the circumstances. After all, the enemy of my enemy... Though admittedly I am not up on the timeline, so perhaps I am wrong there. - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 15:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: old vs new modules Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Mon, 14 Oct 1996, Christopher R Stainton wrote: > Well, I was "disappointed" too that there was only one module "Kings > Ransom", and one sourcebook published. But at the same time, I am sure > GDW had to think about sales. Euorpe and the US would sell to the mass > market of new Twilight fans I always thought GDW was going to focus on other areas. After all World War Three is a world war... > Actually in Iran (which was the major focus of the game) had a Soviet > supported and backed local Government, & a movement of national > independance (read into US supported) and the US just couldn't cut it. Guess GDW forgot about the Ayatollahs and mullahs. Remember how badly Reagan got burned when he was trying to deal with Iran? Come to think of it his administration didn't do anything about American hostages in Lebanon. Goes back to Carter- that idiot decided that he really was going to adhgere to his "human rights" policy and conveniently ignore the Shah and make a deal with Khomeini. Brezhnev's old man political rantings aside the Soviet interest in the Middle east was mainly arms sales. They neither had the navy and after being involved in Afghansitan the inclination to go forward. Besides the Soviets have enough oil in the Caucauses and Siberia- Hell Russia could be selling oil now if it wasn't for the fact that Moscow's incompentent and the Ivan economy's in shambles. > At the time Iran was still a major problem tp the US (in realworld), so > naturally the writers (I think Frank Frey was a Veitnam Vet.-again, Loren > correct me if I'm wrong) tried to gravitate it into a Vietnam Style > bogged down conflict. Granted during the 1980s there were two bugbears for America in the Middle East. One was Iran whose leaders liked to point America was the Great Satan (the mullahs and the TV bible thumpers must get along pretty well;) and the other was Libya- Khadaffy Duck. Khadaffi could export terrorism but not much else- being in North Africa Libya could be contained and Iran was busy dealing with Saddam Huessein. Who knows what would have happened in the Mid East if the Cold War continued. One things for sure a US led coailiton to defeat Iraq wouldn't have been possible- neither would there be the significant military presence at all or the American hedgmony. > Right, I agree. Here are 2 little known facts (realworld again) in > the late 1970s (i believe) a small fundamentalist terrorist group > captured and occupied the mosque in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca. oh, > im sorry, I ment THE MOSQUE. It is the one that the entire Islamic world > makes Pilgramiges to. The Saudis were unable to eject the Terrorists, so > the Saudis asked France(I believe) for aid, and their anti-Terrorist > teams accomplished the mission. I've never heard about the GIGN theory. I do know the Saudi National Guard took heavy losses trying to assault Mecca and in the end the Saudi government dispensed some pretty nasty Koranic type justice. > Another: in the early 1980's the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia secretly > allowed Israeli fighter aircraft to fly over their airspace while enroute > to destroy an Iranian (or was it Iraqi) Nuclear Power Plant which I > believe was still under construction. The Osriak attack was pulling the eyes over the Saudi Air Force. Israeli pilots speaking Arabic and both the Israelis and the saudis use F-15s along with American IFF gear. Mainly though the Issraelis had to deal with Jordianian radar coverage by flying in low. > Right again, although I did mention in an earlier post that I gamed with > a guy in the late 80's early 90's who was writing a Korean Sourcebook for > GDW, I even playtested it some. Who is this guy anyway? I'd like to see his Twilight 2K Second Korean War material. > Me neither, the idea of me fighting my way to get out of Europe, catch > the last boat home, and try to piece together what the hell happened > here. Was enough for me. I surely wouldn't give a damn what happened > back in Poland! I finally got home, after 3 years, and they say let's go > back? well, when do I get to go back home? Agreed. sounds implausible. Twilight characters bust their balls trying to get of Europe and than somebody with a set of stars on his collars says "You gotta go back". Doesn't wash. Granted if the characters opted to stay in europe to begin with. Remember a lot of US soldiers married local girls- they aren't going to leave them that easily. > Last sub series was good..... Sort out of character. One module was a commnado type raid in New England to grab a LA class fast attack boat, the next was to brab some big heads in the Med, and the last to try and sink a Typhoon class boomer... Mad Mike ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:57:47 PST Subject: Re: ME? Not really sure. I think it is like Merc:2000, only crossed with a touch of CyberPunk. Somebody correct me if I am wrong (as if.) :) - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:23:49 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >Sorry to ask this one, >what is Millenium's end? >What's the story behind it? >How much supplemental material has been released for it? >And how much does it cost us poor folk? ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:27:58 PST Subject: Re: Power Gaming Hmmm... I always figured it was a role playing game (as opposed to a roll playing game). If I am interested in a pure combat simulation, there's always Phoenix Command. JM Semper Fidelis On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:27:05 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >>> out for them. The old modules (most of them) were campaign type >> >>Gee, that sounds like what happens in a military conflict. Hmmm. > >Yeah, it also sounds like we are mindless drones who cannot come up >with (as players and gms alike) plans and Intell, and logistics of our >own. Combat is fine (in RPGs) but if there is nothing more to it than >that......... ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:29:15 PST Subject: Re: Money.....It's a gas..... True. I like the D20 system a lot, though. Other than that, I guess I just blew the only reason for you to go buy the new version ! :-) On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:27:05 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: >>>>V2.2 (sort of) takes care of that problem with the following >statement... "A hit to the head or torso that does more damage than >that person's CON is an automatic killing shot against NPCs and an >Outstanding Success versus player characters."<<<< > >That's great, I guess, if you've got Version 2.2. I've looked through >it, but didn't see a need to buy something that I felt didn't have >enough revisions to be worth the $20+ price tag. IMHO ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:52:51 PST Subject: Re: Realistic, or not realistic, that is the question. Giving out secrets... the desire to NOT just kill off hordes of characters is the reason I always do at least the hit location rolls, and depending on the group, I'll even do the to-hit rolls ('course, I have to in my PBeM game). As a matter of fact, there is even one character who, for the first four sessions, got a shot to the head EVERY session. He has a blast coming up with a new "last words" speech every time we play, accompanied by various sound effects another player brought with him the third time. This has of course now become tradition. Rules are meant to be bent, and I never allow a character to die unless it enhances the game or the player royally screwed up. They are here to have fun, after all. Again I will say, for pure combat (and it has it's place), I will player Phoenix Command. Hmph. - -Jeremy Menefee Semper Fidelis On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:19:16 -0500 Anthony Schmidt writes: >> One thing I noticed about t2000, and most GDW games, that differs >from >ME >> or more modern Techno/whatever games is that in T2000 or DC you can >go >> into a combat situation more confident that one or two hits won't >kill >the >> character you've put hours of hard work into (sorry Jeremy). Let's >face >> it, if the rules made it easier to bite it in a combat situation, >> characters would not last very long. In a war like in T2000, every >> character is going to take one for the queen, or Uncle Sam sooner or >later >> (usually sooner and often). I know that if I didn't get shot at >least >> once per game session in T2000, I didn't feel like I had >accomplished >> anything. I think sometimes the total realism factor has to be bent >a >> little bit to allow a player to get attached to a character for at >least >a >> few sessions. If you want to kill PC's quick and effectively, just >throw >> grenades. A M2HB works pretty well too. OUCH! >> >> For a more realistic approach to combat, Millenium's End is about >the >best >> I've seen, no large scale wars involved, but the combat rules are >> excellent. >> >> > ------------------------------ From: jeremy14@juno.com (Jeremy S Menefee) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:34:00 PST Subject: Re: old vs new modules Unrelated question; what is "EGS"? Have I been out of the RPG market that long? :-/ On Mon, 14 Oct 1996 00:27:05 EDT kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) writes: > >On Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Mad Mike writes: > >> Personally though I was sort of disappointed that GDW only >>came up with two modules for the Mid East Twilight setting. One was >the rDf >>sourcebook and one was that treasure hunting one (aka Indiana Grunt >>Jones or Raiders of the Shah's Ark). GDW didn't explain their Middle >East >>conflict? Namely- why did both the US and Soviet Union invade Iran? >>What about Iraq- qhat roles does it play? Or how about the Gulf Arab >>states? > >Well, I was "disappointed" too that there was only one module "Kings >Ransom", and one sourcebook published. But at the same time, I am >sure GDW had to think about sales. Euorpe and the US would sell to >the mass market of new Twilight fans (Loren, jump in here any time). >As far as the political scheme of things goes.....in the Middle East >Iraq and Iran had two seperately supported govts. >Actually in Iran (which was the major focus of the game) had a Soviet >supported and backed local Government, & a movement of national >independance (read into US supported) and the US just couldn't cut it. > At the time Iran was still a major problem tp the US (in realworld), >so naturally the writers (I think Frank Frey was a Veitnam Vet.-again, >Loren correct me if I'm wrong) tried to gravitate it into a Vietnam >Style bogged down conflict. As far as Iraq goes I can't remeber the >whol deal right now, so I'll dust off my copies of the stuff and see >if I can answer that one later. GDW never really expanded that region >in versions 2.0+, though. >One thing GDW should've done was release a whole slew of RDF/Middle >Eastern modules during the Fall of 1990, Winter or 1990-1991, and the >rest of 1991. I believe that the Operation Desert Shield Factbook of >theirs was on the NY Times bestseller list, but then again my memory >concerning events after the first few months after the war is a >little hazy. > > > >> Remember that during the Cold War it was impossible for >either >>side to display a clear dominance in that region. The USSR supplied >>Syria, Iraq, Libya, and et al due mainly to conter US influence with >the Gulf >>states and Israel but more importatnly Middle Eastern amrs sales >>provided the Soviet Union with hard currency. The US has lost the >Shah's Iran >>and found they couldn't maintain that type of relationship with the >>patrimonial monarchies in the Gulf region and more often than not the >>Israels regularly embarass Uncle Sam and the US is often hard pressed >>trying to balance the need for oil with the need to maintain a >>relationship with the Jewish state. > >Right, I agree. Here are 2 little known facts (realworld again) >in the late 1970s (i believe) a small fundamentalist terrorist group >captured and occupied the mosque in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca. >oh, im sorry, I ment THE MOSQUE. It is the one that the entire >Islamic world makes Pilgramiges to. The Saudis were unable to eject >the Terrorists, so the Saudis asked France(I believe) for aid, and >their anti-Terrorist teams accomplished the mission. It was never >publicsised because non-muslims aren't allowed in mosques, much less >the most holy city in their world, and relationships with other Arab >states would've suffered. >Another: in the early 1980's the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia secretly >allowed Israeli fighter aircraft to fly over their airspace while >enroute to destroy an Iranian (or was it Iraqi) Nuclear Power Plant >which I believe was still under construction. >The point here is.........However unified various Middle Eastern >States might have seemed, there has always been the ability to ask for >US or UN assistance. > >> And then there's Korea. North Korea has poltical savy. able >to >>play off China and the USSR all throughout the Cold War and at the >>same to reap benefits from both sides. Then again both China and >theSoviet >>Union were Communist states and had no reason to love the US. So the >idea of >>a Chinese invasion of Korea (under the auspices of linking up with >>American forces doesn't wash). The Chinese sent a million man army to >fight the >>American led UN forces in 1950- remember. Granted with both China and > >>the USSR at war with each other North Korea could have launched its >own >>campaign on the South- thus the 25th Infantry Div (Light), 7th >>Infantry Div (Light), 3rd MEF, and the 9th Infantry Div (Light) would >join in >>to stop the NKs. > >Right again, although I did mention in an earlier post that I gamed >with a guy in the late 80's early 90's who was writing a Korean >Sourcebook for GDW, I even playtested it some. > >>GDW seemed to concentrate exclusively on Post-Holocaust >>America starting with New York and Texas and then to the Midwest >figuring >>everything from Mexican Army invaders to a Neo-Nazi organization bent > >>on creating their version of America out of the ashes. > >US and europe sold.....that's the name of the RPG game for companies. >Look at T$R's EGS. It has, IMHO, put out inferior products and lied >to consumers, yet it is the biggest selling RPG game to date.....but I >digress. > >>I never did get to see the Return to Europe trilogy and if there's a >set out there >somewhere i'm willing to fork over the bucks. > >Me neither, the idea of me fighting my way to get out of Europe, catch >the last boat home, and try to piece together what the hell happened >here. Was enough for me. I surely wouldn't give a damn what happened >back in Poland! I finally got home, after 3 years, and they say let's >go back? well, when do I get to go back home? > >> Still I did like the concept of using a 688 attack boat as a >>platform for SEAL type raids- granted I would have used a Sturgeon >>myself. > >Last sub series was good..... > >Chris >> >> ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:10:44 EDT Subject: Re: old vs new modules >>I do know the Saudi National Guard took heavy losses trying to assault Mecca<< That's a suprise. >>Who is this guy anyway? I'd like to see his Twilight 2K Second Korean War material.<< His name is Tom Mulkey, wrote "Gateway to the Spanish Main" and "Urban Geurilla" Hell of a writer, and GM. ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:12:00 EDT Subject: EGS >>Unrelated question; what is "EGS"? Have I been out of the RPG market that long? :-/<< EGS, a fantasy role playing game where one plays wizards, gnomes, warriors, elves, Paladins, Priests, etc. Made by T$R, which was formerly known as TSR, and EGS formerly known as AD&D. All of these changes occured, of course, after the Guru and father of all RPGs, Gary Gygax was forced out of a company he founded and led.......but I digress, and my opinion might be clouded a little, but I doubt it 8-). ------------------------------ From: kappaabz@juno.com (Christopher R Stainton) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 21:10:44 EDT Subject: D20 >> True. I like the D20 system a lot, though. Other than that, I guess I just blew the only reason for you to go buy the new version ! :-)<<< Already use the D20 system. I thought the skills for 2.2 were "pushing" mw toward Traveler TNE. This "house" system totally broke down when they made Traveler (my 1st RPG played-1980) into a twilight spinoff. IMHO. I have had veteran T2k players say, "hey, what the hell is this autogun skill? What happened to heavy weapons, or Large Caliber Gun? And Tac Missile.....what the........" you get my point. ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:13:56 -0400 Subject: Re: old vs new modules just a small note on the China-Russia thing. Back in the '60s Russia and China did engage in actually combat. It was a border dispute along the Amur River, not really well documented, possibly because of US preoccupation with Vietnam, maybe also because both nations were closed to Westerners. I'm not sure of the actual dates, but I know it happened. Also, even though both nations are Communist, they had a particularly bad falling out in the 1950's over ideological interpretations, I believe. They're certainly not on friendly terms, so a new confrontation would be possible. ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:18:11 -0400 Subject: Re: old vs new modules I always used the modules for background material. I never really liked GDW's open-ended style and preferred a more scripted module. So I always ended up heavily modifying everything beyond recognition. BTW, any chance we could get a sneak peek at what would have been the 2nd Korean War Handbook? ------------------------------ From: OrrinLadd@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:22:28 -0400 Subject: Any refs out there? Any PBeM refs out there besides jeremy and myself? I'd like to trade stories and ideas if possible. Anyone have a unique starting point for the PC's besides the boring standard "Death of a Division" (sorry jeremy). I had my guys start out in a prison camp along the Russo-Polish border. Lets hear what everybody else has done. ------------------------------ From: Michael S Choi Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: old vs new modules Otakuize the world! Otaku of the world unite! Michael Choi, President of the Sailor Ranma fan club and drooling mecha fan-boy extraordinaire. On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 OrrinLadd@aol.com wrote: > just a small note on the China-Russia thing. Back in the '60s Russia and > China did engage in actually combat. It was a border dispute along the Amur > River, not really well documented, possibly because of US preoccupation with > Vietnam, maybe also because both nations were closed to Westerners. I'm not > sure of the actual dates, but I know it happened. The Damansky Island incident. The Chinese decided to pay the KGB Border Guards a lesson. In turn the Ivans had to send a motorized rifles regiment to punish Mow Cow Dung's forces Nobody in his right mind is denying had the Cold war continued the Chinese and Russkies would eventually trade blow for blow. the problem here is would either one of them would try to invade North Korea. the answer's no. NK is a great buffer state having the ability to balance both Beijing and moscow and at the same time get military and economic support from both powers. In short a feasible Twilight situation would be a Sino-Soviet war with a Second Korean War but both the Soviets and the Chinese would back off and let Pyongyang do their own thing. North Korea isn't under the "enemy of my enemy" policy. US forces would try to preserve South Korea- not using a base for offensive operations against the Red Army or the PLA. Mad Mike ------------------------------ End of twilight2000-digest V1996 #22 ************************************